Who is the more dominant NFL WR right now? (1 Viewer)

[nysportsfan]

If only we could compare welker with Brady to without somehow.We've seen all these mediocre receivers like ocho and gaffney come in and light up the scoreboard in New England.

Deion Branch is an excellent example of this. After years of not doing much in Seattle (even when he was healthy), aside from the occasional really good game, he went back to NE last October, and in 16 games since (one of which he didn't really play in, the week 17 game vs. Miami last year), has put up a stat line of 64-932-6. He never came close to doing that in Seattle. That is what happens when you play with Tom Brady. I am not saying Wes Welker = Deion Branch, but merely demonstrating how a good player in the right system with an all-time great QB can look all-world. Consider that in basically two full NFL seasons without Tom Brady as his QB (2006 and almost all of 2008), Welker scored four touchdowns in those two seasons. Four. Meanwhile, Calvin Johnson caught 12 touchdown passes last year despite having the ball thrown to him most of the year by Shaun Hill and Drew Stanton.

Excellent, so Calvin is a better redzone weapon. Since he came into the league he has 294 receptions, trailing Welker over the same period by about 180.Welker also had 110 catches when Brady was out, a figure CJ will never hit in his career.

I went and looked at some tape and I'm struggling to find any plays where CJ has even one defender 'draped over him' and can't find any where he is being double teamed. There are plenty where Welker is getting a lot of defensive attention working underneath where the zone defenders are located yet he seems to be able to get open every time. CJ is different, you see him in 1 on 1 coverage just outleaping guys and beating guys deep, which looks a lot cooler on TV.

This is shtick right?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Excellent, so Calvin is a better redzone weapon. Since he came into the league he has 294 receptions, trailing Welker over the same period by about 180.Welker also had 110 catches when Brady was out, a figure CJ will never hit in his career.

Receptions is an overrated stat, especially nowadays with the amount of short passes that a lot of teams throw. Calvin scores TDs at a much higher rate than Welker (.64 per game for CJ vs. .25 for Welker) and has a much higher career YPC (15.3 vs. 11.0).Are you really trying to say that Calvin is only a great redzone weapon? Welker had 110 catches when Brady is out..yep, with Randy Moss still dictating double and triple teams all day. In '08, Calvin Johnson went for 78-1,331-12 with Dan Orlovsky being the Detroit QB who played the most that year , and with no one else on the Lions having 40 catches or more than 332 receiving yards. That is just sick.

I went and looked at some tape and I'm struggling to find any plays where CJ has even one defender 'draped over him' and can't find any where he is being double teamed. There are plenty where Welker is getting a lot of defensive attention working underneath where the zone defenders are located yet he seems to be able to get open every time. CJ is different, you see him in 1 on 1 coverage just outleaping guys and beating guys deep, which looks a lot cooler on TV.

You're kidding, right?

 

[Road Warriors]

Excellent, so Calvin is a better redzone weapon. Since he came into the league he has 294 receptions, trailing Welker over the same period by about 180.Welker also had 110 catches when Brady was out, a figure CJ will never hit in his career.

Receptions is an overrated stat, especially nowadays with the amount of short passes that a lot of teams throw. Calvin scores TDs at a much higher rate than Welker (.64 per game for CJ vs. .25 for Welker) and has a much higher career YPC (15.3 vs. 11.0).

Watching the games this year, Welker is much more involved down the field. For most of his Patriots career, Welker has worked the middle on short routes while Moss ( and Gaffney/Stallworth/Tate/Branch ) ran the more typical WR tree. So far this year, the TE duo has been working the underneath areas more, and putting Welker on deeper routes. His current 15.4 YPR and 5 TDs is a career best pace, by a wide margin. But I see it more as a function of the role he's playing in the 2011 NE offense as opposed to an anomaly. I still think Calvin is the more dominant player, because of his physical attributes. There are plays he makes that effectively can't be stopped. But Welker, while not having the traditional WR size/speed/strength combination, makes up for it with his precision routes and ability to read and react to defenses to get good separation. He catches a lot of balls because he's open frequently. And having a QB that reads the defense the same way with great accuracy doesn't hurt, either.

 

[GDogg]

If only we could compare welker with Brady to without somehow.We've seen all these mediocre receivers like ocho and gaffney come in and light up the scoreboard in New England.

Deion Branch is an excellent example of this. After years of not doing much in Seattle (even when he was healthy), aside from the occasional really good game, he went back to NE last October, and in 16 games since (one of which he didn't really play in, the week 17 game vs. Miami last year), has put up a stat line of 64-932-6. He never came close to doing that in Seattle. That is what happens when you play with Tom Brady. I am not saying Wes Welker = Deion Branch, but merely demonstrating how a good player in the right system with an all-time great QB can look all-world. Consider that in basically two full NFL seasons without Tom Brady as his QB (2006 and almost all of 2008), Welker scored four touchdowns in those two seasons. Four. Meanwhile, Calvin Johnson caught 12 touchdown passes last year despite having the ball thrown to him most of the year by Shaun Hill and Drew Stanton.

Excellent, so Calvin is a better redzone weapon. Since he came into the league he has 294 receptions, trailing Welker over the same period by about 180.Welker also had 110 catches when Brady was out, a figure CJ will never hit in his career.

I went and looked at some tape and I'm struggling to find any plays where CJ has even one defender 'draped over him' and can't find any where he is being double teamed. There are plenty where Welker is getting a lot of defensive attention working underneath where the zone defenders are located yet he seems to be able to get open every time. CJ is different, you see him in 1 on 1 coverage just outleaping guys and beating guys deep, which looks a lot cooler on TV.

We're talking about Calvin Johnson here. Maybe you were looking for "tape" on another guy? Or, maybe you didn't search for plays where he's got triple coverage? The first hit on my only google search yielded this:Link.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Calvin is more dominant. His size, his speed, his jumping ability, his athleticism. Welker doesn't have those gifts. Welker works in the NE scheme. Calvin in NE would put up Moss 2007 numbers, or better.

A+ in reading comprehension.

People disagree with you, you don't need to be ignorant about it. You think you've created a question and placed the kind of parameters and qualifiers around it that can only result in the response you're looking for. Apparently others disagree...

the question and the OP's subsequent responses are that he wants people to agree with his premise that Welker is the dominate one. yes Welker has been awesome so far but whether is real or FF or whatever premise he wants to use, I'll take Calvin.Stupid fishing trip

Maybe you just don't understand. He wants to know who you think is the more dominant WR right now. But don't take anything into consideration when making your decision.

Pretty much. I think the problem Ocram is having is that he asked which player is the more dominant player. Then, he's trying to limit the definition of "dominant" to a definition that many do not agree with (which is basically, "dominant means which player has scored the most points this season").Wes Welker is scoring more points. That's conceded. And, if you don't want us to argue about what he'd do on another team, then I won't. But, I will argue that other WRs put in the same position as Welker could do something similar. The scheme is that good. He's a great route runner, but there are a lot of excellent route runners in the league.On the flip side, put Calvin Johnson on the bench and have someone else put in his position and I don't think they come close to the numbers he's putting up. Thus, Calvin Johnson is better at doing what it is his team requires of him than Wes Welker is at doing what his team requires.Calvin Johnson is more dominant.

That's frankly not true. He's on pace to utterly annihilate records. Why haven't those records been broken before, hmm?Calvin Johnson is an enormous threat in the passing game. Welker is not only a huge threat in the passing game, he also happens to be the Patriots entire running game oftentimes. No other WR before him on the Patriots has played like he has - Randy Moss played an entirely different game and massed TDs - Welker is massing yardage & receptions like we have never seen before.

I guess you didn't watch MNF this week. They flashed a stat that the top 4 weeks in the history of the NFL (in terms of total yards passing by all qbs for the week, have ALL come this year. The rule changes have helped a lot. Butwhen in the history of the league have you seen a successful teams QB run the hurry up from the shotgun from the first quarter on.Welker is very good, but there are probably 5 other receivers you could flip out with welker in that offense and put up the same ridonkulous stats. It's as much welkers dominance, it's his role in that offense and that Brady is passing for 400 -500 yards agame and throwing to welker 15-20 times a game. Most good-great NFL receivers have about 30 targets. Some elite ones have 40. Only 6 guys not named welker have more than 40, with Roddy White being the second highest with 45. Welker has FIFTY SEVEN. For comparison Megatron has 41 targets. Fwiw when Hernandez was still playing welker was only getting 11 or 12 targets a game. When he returns Welkers stats will come crashing back to a merely great level, not the otherworldly things he has done the last 2 weeks.

:crickets:though in fairness it might just have been buried as post 98/100 which is at the bottom of 50 or 100 post page viewers.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

If only we could compare welker with Brady to without somehow.We've seen all these mediocre receivers like ocho and gaffney come in and light up the scoreboard in New England.

Deion Branch is an excellent example of this. After years of not doing much in Seattle (even when he was healthy), aside from the occasional really good game, he went back to NE last October, and in 16 games since (one of which he didn't really play in, the week 17 game vs. Miami last year), has put up a stat line of 64-932-6. He never came close to doing that in Seattle. That is what happens when you play with Tom Brady. I am not saying Wes Welker = Deion Branch, but merely demonstrating how a good player in the right system with an all-time great QB can look all-world. Consider that in basically two full NFL seasons without Tom Brady as his QB (2006 and almost all of 2008), Welker scored four touchdowns in those two seasons. Four. Meanwhile, Calvin Johnson caught 12 touchdown passes last year despite having the ball thrown to him most of the year by Shaun Hill and Drew Stanton.

Excellent, so Calvin is a better redzone weapon. Since he came into the league he has 294 receptions, trailing Welker over the same period by about 180.Welker also had 110 catches when Brady was out, a figure CJ will never hit in his career.

I went and looked at some tape and I'm struggling to find any plays where CJ has even one defender 'draped over him' and can't find any where he is being double teamed. There are plenty where Welker is getting a lot of defensive attention working underneath where the zone defenders are located yet he seems to be able to get open every time. CJ is different, you see him in 1 on 1 coverage just outleaping guys and beating guys deep, which looks a lot cooler on TV.

We're talking about Calvin Johnson here. Maybe you were looking for "tape" on another guy? Or, maybe you didn't search for plays where he's got triple coverage? The first hit on my only google search yielded this:Link.

this guys gonna have to take down his 'complaint' about madden

 

[Flying Elvis]

The homer in me snatched control of my mouse at the last second and forced a Welker vote.

But the objective fan in me thinks it's Calvin. He's dominating double and triple teams. The question is dominant and that's the obvious answer, I think. He truly is dominating the competition. Welker is not dominating mathcups vs. defenders, he's only dominating based on schemes & routes. Which, frankly, is still "dominant" and the reason my inner-homer was able to take control of the mouse with little resistance.

 

[Ping Pong]

Opinions from the GOAT... Pretty much the same arguments many in here have stated. Megatron is unstoppable in any offense, but Welker benefits more from his position in the offense (and Brady).

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/21/jerry-rice-megatron-fitzgerald-are-better-than-welker/

 

[duaneok66]

nice thread . . .

there has been more than one occasion this year when I watched Stafford heave a ball downfield, and then I saw Megatron in the endzone (and covered) and I still said "touchdown" before the ball got there . . .

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Cris Carter calls Calvin Johnson “king of the NFL”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/03/cris-carter-calls-calvin-johnson-king-of-the-nfl/



Cris Carter probably wishes he never opened his mouth about Calvin Johnson. But after declaring before the season that Johnson is great in video games but not real football, Carter is now doing his best to backtrack.

In an appearance on ESPN Radio this morning, Carter acknowledged that Johnson is doing things no other receiver is doing — namely, catching two touchdown passes in four straight games, something that only Carter himself has ever done before.

“Right now, Calvin Johnson — there’s a king in every crowd, and he’s the king of the National Football League as far as wide receivers,” Carter said.

Carter’s comments have become something of a rallying cry in the Lions’ locker room, and Carter said he thinks the rest of the NFL — specifically Cowboys defensive coordinator Rob Ryan – should have learned not to question Megatron.

Another ESPN analyst, Merill Hoge, followed up on Carter’s “king of the National Football League” comment by saying Johnson, through four games, is the NFL’s most valuable player.

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Option C- Mike Wallace

 

[SacramentoBob]

Welker has been shut down before, you just need to disrupt the route and have a pass rush that can actually force Brady into throwing the ball on a normal time schedule.

I very rarely feel compelled to post but some of the comments I'm reading about Welker and in particular comments from SacramentoBob have me completely scratching my head in disbelief. Obviously I won't hide the fact that I'm a Pats fan but I will say that I thought Welker was underrated when he was with the Dolphins and was thrilled when the Pats signed him. Are people actually making an arguement that if you shut down Brady you'll shut down Welker???

Update? Looks like the Steelers took my advice and shut them all down.

 

[FavreCo]

Option C- Mike Wallace

That didn't last long.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Welker's insane start to this season I think has made people think that he goes off for 10 catches in every game, but it's not the way it is. Remember that he had these games last year:

6-38-1

4-45-0

7-53-0

4-25-0

3-24-0

4-36-0

3-42-0

3-19-0



With a lot of tough pass defenses on NE's schedule coming up starting with the Jets next week, expect Welker's numbers to start going way down. It's inevitable.

GDogg that statement is ridiculous. Moss set that record 4 seasons ago. Rice set the yardage record in 1995 and nobody has even come close. Every year there are a few WR who break that 15+ TD area. It's rare though that more than 1 guy puts up 1500+ yds. Let alone 1900yds. Breaking the yardage record is much bigger a deal IMO than the TD record. A longer standing record is almost always the hardest to break.

That's true, but do you think Welker will break the yardage record of 1,848? To do it, he will still need to average over 100 receiving yards per game, and his targets won't stay as high as they have been the last two games. Along with the difficult pass defenses coming up, Hernandez coming back will take away a bunch of targets (compare Welker's targets in weeks 1 and 2 vs. weeks 3 and 4), and I doubt Welker is gonna bust a fluke 99-yard TD catch again to jack up his overall numbers. And there is always the strong possibility that Ochocinco becomes a bigger part of the offense as the season goes on. Basically, Welker's piece of the pie has been enormous over the last two weeks, but it wont stay that way. He'll still be studly for the rest of the year, health permitting, but he simply isn't gonna keep blowing up like this every week.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Calvin is more dominant. His size, his speed, his jumping ability, his athleticism. Welker doesn't have those gifts. Welker works in the NE scheme. Calvin in NE would put up Moss 2007 numbers, or better.

A+ in reading comprehension.

People disagree with you, you don't need to be ignorant about it. You think you've created a question and placed the kind of parameters and qualifiers around it that can only result in the response you're looking for. Apparently others disagree...

the question and the OP's subsequent responses are that he wants people to agree with his premise that Welker is the dominate one. yes Welker has been awesome so far but whether is real or FF or whatever premise he wants to use, I'll take Calvin.Stupid fishing trip

Maybe you just don't understand. He wants to know who you think is the more dominant WR right now. But don't take anything into consideration when making your decision.

Pretty much. I think the problem Ocram is having is that he asked which player is the more dominant player. Then, he's trying to limit the definition of "dominant" to a definition that many do not agree with (which is basically, "dominant means which player has scored the most points this season").Wes Welker is scoring more points. That's conceded. And, if you don't want us to argue about what he'd do on another team, then I won't. But, I will argue that other WRs put in the same position as Welker could do something similar. The scheme is that good. He's a great route runner, but there are a lot of excellent route runners in the league.On the flip side, put Calvin Johnson on the bench and have someone else put in his position and I don't think they come close to the numbers he's putting up. Thus, Calvin Johnson is better at doing what it is his team requires of him than Wes Welker is at doing what his team requires.Calvin Johnson is more dominant.

That's frankly not true. He's on pace to utterly annihilate records. Why haven't those records been broken before, hmm?Calvin Johnson is an enormous threat in the passing game. Welker is not only a huge threat in the passing game, he also happens to be the Patriots entire running game oftentimes. No other WR before him on the Patriots has played like he has - Randy Moss played an entirely different game and massed TDs - Welker is massing yardage & receptions like we have never seen before.

I guess you didn't watch MNF this week. They flashed a stat that the top 4 weeks in the history of the NFL (in terms of total yards passing by all qbs for the week, have ALL come this year. The rule changes have helped a lot. Butwhen in the history of the league have you seen a successful teams QB run the hurry up from the shotgun from the first quarter on.Welker is very good, but there are probably 5 other receivers you could flip out with welker in that offense and put up the same ridonkulous stats. It's as much welkers dominance, it's his role in that offense and that Brady is passing for 400 -500 yards agame and throwing to welker 15-20 times a game. Most good-great NFL receivers have about 30 targets. Some elite ones have 40. Only 6 guys not named welker have more than 40, with Roddy White being the second highest with 45. Welker has FIFTY SEVEN. For comparison Megatron has 41 targets. Fwiw when Hernandez was still playing welker was only getting 11 or 12 targets a game. When he returns Welkers stats will come crashing back to a merely great level, not the otherworldly things he has done the last 2 weeks.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

Good call. Hipple wins this thread.

 

[SacramentoBob]

I'd say this is pretty settled now. Megatron beats him in both TDs and yards.