What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Who's at fault? (1 Viewer)

Thanks for the tip.

Although I have had to deal with numerous he said/she said legal situations, none has stemmed from a traffic incident.  Through experience I have found the less said the better but sometimes you just have to state your case.  I am not looking to shirk blame but it is good to know an appropriate response, if I am attacked in the future.

My uncle is a retired police officer.  Being disillusioned with various behaviors of his fellow officers, he gave me a lot of advice on how to handle certain situations involving law enforcement.  One thing he reinforced was to not incriminate oneself during a routine traffic stop by answering there ambiguous questions with equally ambiguous responses.  The "I don't think the guy saw me." is now on my short list of generic responses for certain situations.
No not at all. Just think of the making a murderer. Even if the guy is guilty planting evidence just makes it more likely for him to get off. Just lay in the other guy with the most common cause and try to let them disprove it. "He didn't see me" is a good response. It puts the onus on the other party to prove he saw you and then justify why he hit you if he saw you coming. 

 
I would send my denial letter to the driver of the car and cite the reason for my denial as "Unsafe lane change 28-729.1 

As below I feel the car violated its duty to only leave its lane when it was safe to do so. 


28-729.  Driving on roadways laned for traffic

If a roadway is divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic, the following rules in addition to all others consistent with this section apply:

1. A person shall drive a vehicle as nearly as practicable entirely within a single lane and shall not move the vehicle from that lane until the driver has first ascertained that the movement can be made with safety.

2. On a roadway that is divided into three lanes, a person shall not drive a vehicle in the center lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle where the roadway is clearly visible and the center lane is clear of traffic within a safe distance, or in preparation for a left turn or where the center lane is at the time allocated exclusively to traffic moving in the direction the vehicle is proceeding and is signposted to give notice of the allocation.

3. Official signs may be erected directing slow-moving traffic to use a designated lane or designating those lanes to be used by traffic moving in a particular direction regardless of the center of the roadway, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every sign.
Yes, the unsafe lane change would be the trump card, but that truck driver saw it coming and didn't even slow down even a little bit

 
Oh I know the law and insurance law is often counter intuitive. Almost like being responsible for a kid drowning in your pool because you didn't put a fence up, well he shouldn't have been on my property in the first place is a pretty normal response. But it just isn't the case a lot of the time. Insurance is civil in nature and about what caused the damage, Criminality often has no bearing. There is a strong relationship between people doing illegal stuff being also the same stuff that causes accidents hence why it is illegal.

Agains we are talking about outliers here. Most every time the person doing the illegal turn, lane change merge etc is going to be the cause of loss.
I for one, would enjoy your thesis on Proximate Cause.  :nerd:    (yes, I'm a lawyer)

 
He could have slowed down a little to minimize the impact
I am not sure of the handling capabilities of an 18 wheeler but I would guess the driver's thought process was something like this.  OK, something bad is going to happen here.  I can, 1) slam on my brakes possibly jack knifing my rig, causing it to flip over which may lead to severe bodily harm to myself or drivers of other vehicles in the vicinity, or 2) try to slow my rate of travel down as much as I can safely and slam that ####### who shouldn't be driving anyways.  I bet he went with option 2.

 
at least he wouldn't have rear ended the car though....who cares if he jackknifes his truck takes out 3 cars and a school bus in the process and his load of steel tubing goes flying all over impaling 4 drivers in the opposite side of the highway!
There was an SUV on his right and a guard rail on the left.  Not a lot of options.

ETA:  I haven't figured out nesting quotes.  I was actually supporting what you're saying but it looked like I was challenging you.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes, the unsafe lane change would be the trump card, but that truck driver saw it coming and didn't even slow down even a little bit
There are a couple of things that maybe would apply like "failure to maintain control" some other thing that may apply they are far fetched an would never hold up in arbitration. I can't think of a legal duty that he has failed to maintain to some percentage of fault on the truck. 

 
Truck.  And that's not cutting across three lanes.  He was in the right lane and crossed one lane and then was in the left lane.  He cut across one lane.  And he may have wanted to make an illegal u turn, but he didnt.  He hit his brakes. 
The french whore has done eaten yo brain.

 
I can't see the video, but I would comment about the vehicle in the rear always being at fault...

Drving around the beltway in DC, I think that if any car just randomly slammed on their brakes, there would never be enough reaction time to prevent the car behind it from crashing into it.  The thought that the rear vehicle always being at fault is not a fair assumption...

 
I can't see the video, but I would comment about the vehicle in the rear always being at fault...

Drving around the beltway in DC, I think that if any car just randomly slammed on their brakes, there would never be enough reaction time to prevent the car behind it from crashing into it.  The thought that the rear vehicle always being at fault is not a fair assumption...
In that case, that is the fault of the person in back.  You're supposed to leave enough room so that if the person in front of you slams on the brakes, you can stop without hitting them.

 
Loan Sharks - If the car driver was drunk, how does that alter things?  Not saying he/she is or isn't, just curious how driving impaired changes the dynamics.

I'll hang up and listen.

 
How could it not be the car?
Agreed. How can someone say it was the truck because the car hadn't even made the turn yet? Come to an almost complete stop, after having cut across two lanes and see how many people are able to stop in time. Ridiculous, idiotic driving. Reminds me of idiots that back up on the highway because they missed an exit or people that U-turn in a street. Is there a reason why these idiots can't be safe and go to the next exit/turn and turn around safely?

Also, this idiot turned from the left hand lane. Why not get onto the shoulder so at least you aren't making someone behind you come to a complete stop because you don't know how to turn without stopping. Dumb ### in the car.

 
In that case, that is the fault of the person in back.  You're supposed to leave enough room so that if the person in front of you slams on the brakes, you can stop without hitting them.
Driven around here much?  The second you leave enough space, someone moves into that space - you end up in a death spiral of letting car after car in using that approach...

 
How is that different than your example?
I think shiek's example is much different. Driving behind a car and them coming to a stop is one thing. This idiot cut across the highway while stopping when there was no traffic. It takes away the idea that the truck in the left hand lane had a chance to drive a reasonable distance behind like in normal highway driving where you rear end someone because you didn't give yourself enough room.

 
Loan Sharks - If the car driver was drunk, how does that alter things?  Not saying he/she is or isn't, just curious how driving impaired changes the dynamics.

I'll hang up and listen.
In this case it would not change anything the video shows the car at fault for unsafe lane change, even if sober. If there was no video and this happened it would change the narrative to something like this. 

Drunk says truck rear ends, Truck says car unsafe change = tie but the fact that the car driver is drunk makes it more likely that he swerved into the trucks lane and the Trucker is telling the truth. So even without video the drunk driver  in the car would still lose. The presumption if you are in court is the drunks testimony is going to be unreliable and therefore will lose unless there is conclusive evidence the drunk didn't cause it. In 20 years I have only seen a handle of dui drivers that even though drunk didn't cause the accident and even then there were only a couple that I was able to defend successfully if you are dui you are toast unless you are stationary for sure. 

It is always a weird argument with an adjuster when their client hits your drunk driver in the back while the drunk was stopped at a stop sign. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
How is that different than your example?
Are you asking how it's different than the video?  If so, it's because if the car in the video had just jammed on the brakes while in the same lane, then the truck would have been at fault.  That's why you always see trucks hanging way back behind cars, usually.  They are allowing enough space to brake safely.  In the video, the car moved from the right lane to the left lane and jammed on the brakes.  

If you are driving on the highway and the car in front of you brakes and you hit it, that's your fault.  Loan Sharks can correct me if I'm wrong in this thinking, but I'm fairly sure I'm correct on that.

I've always been unclear on whose fault it was if you hit the back of a car that moved into your lane and hit the brakes.  That's why this incident in the video intrigued me.

 
Here is something else that you guys might think is insane. I don't give a #### what any cop says about an accident. 

I like police reports because it lets me id people and vehicles and usually gives me a diagram of the location. But the cop is just making a drawing based on what people tell him, he is not witness and not a accident investigator most times cops don't even know the vehicle codes. 

Plus I can't tell you working for a primarily hispanic customer based insurance company. You will have an english speaker and an non english speaker in a accident and the cop will take the english speakers version and write it down ver batim and since the other party speaks Korean Spanish or whatever they have no input. I'll draw my own conclusions thank you. 

People go bananas when I disagree with a police report. If the cop cites someone I give significantly more weight to cops opinion but if the cop doesn't give anyone a ticket that means he really doesn't know what happened. 

 
Driven around here much?  The second you leave enough space, someone moves into that space - you end up in a death spiral of letting car after car in using that approach...
I get what you're saying.  And I'm not saying I agree with it.  I'm just telling you if you hit the car in front of you on a highway when he brakes, it's going to be your fault.  

 
Can I prove that you were 6 inches from my bumper and not 6 car lengths that you say? The answer without the video is no I can't. It is a he said, she said and the vehicle codes in almost all states favor the lead car. You understand I am not saying you are not at fault in your scenario, I am saying that I can't prove you are at fault. 
You'd also have the tire skid marks.  Unless the guy plowed into the car in front at normal speed, if he slammed on his breaks there would be evidence of when he did that.  

 
Well I was that driver and can tell you a few things. For one, I wasn't speeding. The speed limit there is 65. Next the left lane isn't restricted so it's legal to be there. Finally the car driver admitted to missing her exit and was wanting to make uturn across the median. Troopers ticketed the car driver and my company deemed this nonpreventible. Also as that car came into my lane she was only 2-3 car lengths off the front of my truck.no way I could have stopped I'm time. She ended up doing almost 11,000 in damage to my truck for which her insurance paid for. Luckily the car driver wasn't hurt

 
I am not sure of the handling capabilities of an 18 wheeler but I would guess the driver's thought process was something like this.  OK, something bad is going to happen here.  I can, 1) slam on my brakes possibly jack knifing my rig, causing it to flip over which may lead to severe bodily harm to myself or drivers of other vehicles in the vicinity, or 2) try to slow my rate of travel down as much as I can safely and slam that ####### who shouldn't be driving anyways.  I bet he went with option 2.
Or maybe something between those two options perhaps...

 
That was clutch.
Looked like the big truck came to a complete stop, almost as if he was planning to follow the guy trying to cross all the lanes and almost slamming into the bus. the #### bag even goes up on the curb to go around the bus because he needs to turn 50 yards up and doesn't have the patience to do it safely. Would love to know if the big truck did turn off and follow the guy.

 
You'd also have the tire skid marks.  Unless the guy plowed into the car in front at normal speed, if he slammed on his breaks there would be evidence of when he did that.  
Skid marks used to be the standard. A lot of the new anti lock brake systems are sooooo good they keep those tires turning as it helps to stop the car faster a lot of cars now won't skid no matter how much you stand on the brakes. 

 
Skid marks used to be the standard. A lot of the new anti lock brake systems are sooooo good they keep those tires turning as it helps to stop the car faster a lot of cars now won't skid no matter how much you stand on the brakes. 
Damn new vehicles.  I'm a firm believe in skid marks.  

 
Its called the swoop and squat. A fake cut off so the victim car can honestly claim they had to slam brakes in front of a commercial vehicle for the fake claim the third phantom car is corroberated by the trucker and then speeds from the scene. I looked to see if there was a swoop car in front of the stopper and  there isn't this isn't a staged accident this is a dispirit making a unsafe lane change. 
Do you know if insurance companies share data concerning potential fraud cases or is such sharing prohibited by law?

 
I used to be a field adjuster then a SIU investigator I and in estimating management now repairs so I don't know. But the NICB (National Insurance Crime Bureau) tracks that stuff. 

NICB

If you are a member insurer and stuff we have access to a lot more crime stuff. But these feds send out NICB agents and train you on auto theft and fire fraud etc. It is pretty fascinating stuff.

But anyways there are some stats on there but there is a little video clip section there on the bottom with busts and news stories. There is one on there where a lady torched her own pet shop for a insurance claim and left the cameras on and taped her self torching the place. Some are boring but some show you the crazy #### people will do to steal money. So yeah every time someone gets away with it and we pay them your insurance premiums go up, nice huh. 

Just from talking to NICB agents in a class I remember them saying about 5% of claims are fraudulent as in on purpose crime staged never happened etc. The real problem is the "enhanced fraud" claims which is another 15%. That is where a legit accident happened, but now there was a picasso in the trunk, or and extra person who is injured is now in the car, or this other damage on the car that was already there is from the accident.  Or the ever popular fake whiplash. The worst one I got about once a week was a little tiny bumper scratch the "is causing my transmission to slip" on my 14 year old piece of crap, uh huh sure. 

So basically you are looking at roughly 20% of insurance claims that have some element of fraud. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
No.  This isn't a customer service story.  I've seen a heated debate on Facebook about this and I have to say, my interest is piqued.

First, watch this video.  It's short and to the point. (I've watched it without sound, so I'm not sure if there's anything bad in the audio or not.)

Most people are blaming the truck and saying that if you rear end someone, it's always your fault.  Maybe not 100%, but a lot of insurance agents (or at least people stating they are) are saying that the truck's insurance would lose to the car's insurance company and the car driver would not be found at fault.  This is mind blowing to me.  Car cuts across three lanes of highway to try and make an illegal U-turn from the passing lane.  

Discuss.
This is mostly true but in "stop short" situations liability can shift to the car that is rear ended. This could/should qualify. The fact that it is on video helps.

 
The SUV is at fault!!

The middle lane has become the new right lane. People routinely drive down the center doing well below the speed limit...it's like they're afraid of falling off the edge!!

If you're getting toasted by a big rig, that has to pull into the left lane to get by, I'm betting you're going about 52 MPH. They will sit there with vehicles blowing by them on both sides, yet refuse to move into the right lane. I just don't get it!

 
Are you asking how it's different than the video?  If so, it's because if the car in the video had just jammed on the brakes while in the same lane, then the truck would have been at fault.  That's why you always see trucks hanging way back behind cars, usually.  They are allowing enough space to brake safely.  In the video, the car moved from the right lane to the left lane and jammed on the brakes.  

If you are driving on the highway and the car in front of you brakes and you hit it, that's your fault.  Loan Sharks can correct me if I'm wrong in this thinking, but I'm fairly sure I'm correct on that.

I've always been unclear on whose fault it was if you hit the back of a car that moved into your lane and hit the brakes.  That's why this incident in the video intrigued me.
It's your fault unless you can prove the driver hit the brakes carelessly or to cause an accident.

 
No that is the law or vehicle code if you will. "you must maintain a safe distance when following a car" if an accident occurs then well whatever distance between the two cars was not enough to be safe. In this case the car created the unsafe distance with the unsafe merge. 
:goodposting:

 
To trump the rear end you have to "beat it" with another code violation for better or for worse you are mostly allowed to stop you car anytime you want.
What is a situation with no video evidence where someone in their own lane slammed on their brakes for apparently no legitimate reason and they would be found at fault?

 
What is a situation with no video evidence where someone in their own lane slammed on their brakes for apparently no legitimate reason and they would be found at fault?
I can't really think of one. I was more referring to you are allowed to stop your car any time you want but there are times that  a cop can tell you not to stop or it is a posted no stopping zone where you aren't allowed to stop. But you are talking extreme instances where a cop tells you to move and you instead slam your brakes on and cause a accident, that kind of stuff doesn't fall into you "legitimate reason" . 

I guess I can sum it up like this there is no statute or code against "unsafe stopping".* (In California or Arizona)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Car is at fault.  If you are making a making a left turn like that you have to make it from the left lane, preferably as far to the left of that lane as possible.   Not from three lanes over.  There would be mass chaos if left turns like that were legal.

For some reason people in Wisconsin, should they be in that left lane, would first swerve to the right before making a left turn.  I don't why they do that, other than they all think they are driving a semi and don't want to to cut the corner.  

 
Anyone blaming the truck driver and defending the car's driver is obviously the kind of dickwad that routinely cuts across four lanes of traffic trying to catch that exit at the last possible second because they ARE just that special.

 
Im a truck driver.

Ive reviewed the tape.

He did attempt to stop. You can see at the moment of impact. It wasnt the mass of the car stopping him.

The person driving the car needan insurance hike and some classes about not being a bonehead.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top