MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Wait...did you just say Freeman and Coleman were middle-of-the-pack RBs? That's crazy talk. Those are two HUGE weapons on that team that are an integral part of the Falcons success.
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Who's the 2016 NFL MVP right now? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ghost Rider
- Start date
CalBear
Footballguy
Freeman had two 100-yard games. Coleman had none rushing (one 100-yard receiving game). They had good seasons, but there are probably 10 starters and 20 backups who could have had the same or better seasons given that they had a QB who was having a historic season.
If they're such amazing weapons, why did Atlanta finish 21/32 in scoring in 2015? They were both there last year.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
What a 
thread. It's as if some people don't watch the games, while ignoring last year when Freeman was a top 5 running back, statistically - top 4 yardage, most TD.
We've gone down this road, Ryan has better players around him. He still should be the mvp for the whole season, or Co-mvp with Rodgers.
Looking forward to the mvp discussion delving into the top 20 backup RBs.
thread. It's as if some people don't watch the games, while ignoring last year when Freeman was a top 5 running back, statistically - top 4 yardage, most TD. We've gone down this road, Ryan has better players around him. He still should be the mvp for the whole season, or Co-mvp with Rodgers.
Looking forward to the mvp discussion delving into the top 20 backup RBs.
Milkman
Footballguy
It's more Shanahan than anything but the Atlanta backfield gave Ryan 2482 yards from scrimmage when you combine them. It was like having a better RB back there than DJ. Neither one of those RB are special. Well Coleman flashes special sometimes but It's really a testament to just how good Shanahan is at scheming his players open. Ryan can only play with the players and OC he's given so you can't knock him to much but when you watch the tape he's just running the play and making the right read. He's not making any wow plays or carrying the team.
The reason why I keep bringing up the fact that Rodgers would be drafted in front of Ryan if all we had to go by was this year's stats and tape is because it proves he played better than Matt Ryan this year. Sure Matt Ryan threw for more yards and had a higher ypc average but he was a significantly smaller cog in a much better offense and Ryan's teammates got him more yards after the catch than Aaron Rodgers teammates did for him. He also got much more help from the running game. Rodgers had the 29th rushing offense in the league if you take his rushing numbers out.
Even with all that Rodgers still threw and ran for 6 more TD's than Ryan.
The value to their team isn't close. Rodgers is much more valuable.
The tape isn't close. Rodgers typically has more wow plays in a quarter than Ryan has had all year.
Rodgers did it all by himself. Ryan had the best rushing offense in the league and the best WR in the league.
Ryan's stats in some areas were better but in other areas he wasn't as good.
It's really not close who should be the MVP if you dive a little deeper than who had more passing yards and wins.
The reason why I keep bringing up the fact that Rodgers would be drafted in front of Ryan if all we had to go by was this year's stats and tape is because it proves he played better than Matt Ryan this year. Sure Matt Ryan threw for more yards and had a higher ypc average but he was a significantly smaller cog in a much better offense and Ryan's teammates got him more yards after the catch than Aaron Rodgers teammates did for him. He also got much more help from the running game. Rodgers had the 29th rushing offense in the league if you take his rushing numbers out.
Even with all that Rodgers still threw and ran for 6 more TD's than Ryan.
The value to their team isn't close. Rodgers is much more valuable.
The tape isn't close. Rodgers typically has more wow plays in a quarter than Ryan has had all year.
Rodgers did it all by himself. Ryan had the best rushing offense in the league and the best WR in the league.
Ryan's stats in some areas were better but in other areas he wasn't as good.
It's really not close who should be the MVP if you dive a little deeper than who had more passing yards and wins.
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
Who gives a #### who wins the MVP. I'm sure either guy would rather win this game than the MVP trophy.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The real MVP voters don't dive deeper into anything and won't look at any tape. Maybe they should, but they don't.
Whether Rodgers was the MVP on not doesn't change that he's been on an incredible run to finish the season. As others have said, he'd much rather have the SB MVP trophy than the regular season MVP trophy.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Maybe this is silly, but why are we talking about 2015? I'm not sure why you keep bringing 2015 up because it's completely irrelevant to this year.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Uh....wasn't Matt Ryan there last year too? Or is that somehow irrelevant in your mind?
FUBAR
Footballguy
Sometimes simply making the right read and executing the offense is enough. You don't really need a special running back either - 1/4 of the remaining teams have one. And that team was 2-1 without him. It helps sure, but it's more important to work within the system.
Most of us agree on a few points
1. Rodgers is the better player.
2. Ryan has better players around him.
3. Shanny has done an incredible job as OC, among the best coordinators in the league this year.
4. MVP < super bowl
FUBAR
Footballguy
CalBear
Footballguy
Matt Ryan was there in 2015, as were Jones, Freeman, and Coleman. So the difference between 2015 and 2016 is that Ryan had an MVP season in 2016, and didn't in 2015. If success was due to the supporting cast he would have a season like that every year.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I think people need to stop making their cases by saying how one would do if their teammates were swapped. That's not really a valid argument because we have no idea what would happen. There are way too many variables.
Other terrible arguments are using anything from previous years or talking about who would go first in a redraft after this season. None of that has anything to do with this season's MVP.
Other terrible arguments are using anything from previous years or talking about who would go first in a redraft after this season. None of that has anything to do with this season's MVP.
Fantasy Football Fairy
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
It's true Ryan can only play with the players and OC he is given. You can't take to much away from him for it but it's hard to give him 100% credit for the stats he put up this year when it's such an outlier. He did do an incredible job making the right read and executing the play. You're correct you don't need a special RB and Atlanta in large part doesn't have a special RB but they did put up special rushing numbers. On the other side of it being one dimensional on offense makes the defenses job a lot easier. It's something Rodgers had to deal with all year.
I'm done now. lol
Rick James
Footballguy
Let's start this off by saying that both were amazing this year, but:
On 76 fewer attempts (essentially two games worth of passes), Matt Ryan had:
-more yards than Rodgers
-better completion percentage
-better TD percentage (Rodgers only has 2 more TDs)
-historically great Y/A
-better Y/G
-better rating
-better QBR
Milkman
Footballguy
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Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
Yeah he was in a better offense with a better supporting cast and better OC. Rodgers would still be picked before Ryan only using the stats and tape we have for this year. Tape never lies. Stats can.
Rick James
Footballguy
No, you didn't. It's a stupid concept. Yes, Rodgers is a better player and would be taken #1 right now (Brady too old) if the NFL did a re-draft. But the MVP is a yearly award, and Ryan had a better year than Rodgers.
Rick James
Footballguy
lmao all of a sudden GB's offense is chopped liver huh? There aren't 5 teams in the league with better WRs than Jordy, Cobb, and Adams. The OL is top 5. Lack of running game doesn't mean much to me IMO because GB/Rodgers like to sling the ball all over the field anyway. GB hasn't had a good ground game in five years, not sure why it matter so much this year.
Milkman
Footballguy
No it's not. If Ryan played better than Rodgers this year using only this years data Ryan would be picked before Rodgers. He wouldn't which means you can throw all the stats you want up he didn't play as well as Rodgers.
It's not a complicated process.
Milkman
Footballguy
Chicken or the egg. We have data on what happens to supposedly great WR when they leave Rodgers........
Milkman
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
In the world of bits and bytes and 8 second video clips, does a 40 yard designed pass play to Julio Jones in stride look better or worse on video than a snippet of Rodgers already out of the pocket throwing a hail mary that happens to connect? I would argue the Jones play has more football value (calling a designed play that was executed perfectly) compared to essentially a chucked ball that happens to work out? Don't get me started on hail mary's, as they should never be completed, As in not ever. Anytime they are successful, the defense was poorly coached.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Milkman, I honestly don't care about your opinion anymore. Relying on such flawed logic and refusing to give up on it is just too much for me to keep debating the issue with you. You seem to be 100% positive you're right even though I don't think I've seen one person agree with you.
If you want to say Rodgers deserves the MVP more then that's just fine. He's certainly had a good enough year to win and so have Ryan and Brady. You're reasons for why you think Rodger should win is what sounds so ridiculous.
If you want to say Rodgers deserves the MVP more then that's just fine. He's certainly had a good enough year to win and so have Ryan and Brady. You're reasons for why you think Rodger should win is what sounds so ridiculous.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Well, there should always be that small chance it happens. You can't account for pure random events like the ball bouncing the right direction. No offensive player should ever be able to catch the pass uncontested though.
Milkman
Footballguy
This is why it's hard to debate deeper than the stats with some of you guys. I mean you think Rodgers best play is the 40 yard prayer to Cobb? Here's a hint, it's probably not even in his top ten best plays of the year.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
You're right, it's not that great of a play. He shows great skills getting himself in a position to throw the long ball. The pass itself is impressive but the rest is all luck.
Milkman
Footballguy
He's most valuable when he extends plays and throws his receivers open. Watch the TD he threw to Adams in the opening round of the playoffs for reference. Adams is not open. Nobody is. I think Adams has dropped at least 3 easy TD passes this year too. He should give Rodgers half of his next signing bonus.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
No matter what Rodger does Adams has to make the catch. A QB can not make a ball stick in a WRs hands. Rodgers also can't make a guy get open, he can buy time for a WR to get open but the WR is responsible for running.
I'm not discrediting what Rodgers can do in the pocket. He has the best pocket awareness I've ever seen. He also has a great arm but those WR are completely responsible for getting open and catching the ball. Just like Cook along the sidelines against the Cowboys. Everything Rodgers did would have been completely worthless if Cook didn't keep his feet in bounds some how.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
I think Ryan deserves the MVP. He finished with better stats and his team was better in the regular season. I think Rodgers will probably win the award.
FUBAR
Footballguy
sure, but you're wrong. That we agree on.
Yeah, I was actually joking.
TheBottomLine
Footballguy
Meh, Jordy coming off of serious injury, Adams is as inconsistent as they come, and Cobb has been dinged all year and hasn't looked like his old self this year or last.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I realize this is not part of the MVP voting process, and there is no concrete way to know this, but I am 99.99999% confident that there is no chance in any type of hell that Matt Ryan would have gotten the Packers into the playoffs this year (and yes, I am assuming this even if Ryan had been there his entire career, knew the plays, the players, and wasn't just dropped into a new situation).
When people say "Ryan had the better year", you are looking at nothing but stats. That is a very, very simple/lazy way to do this. Unfortunately the actual MVP voters do this also. It's kinda sad.
Also, the argument that Ryan had an MVP year being the reason they were not 21/32 in scoring and tops in scoring is kinda silly also. It's more like Ryan just wasn't all that special and could not come close to maximizing the talent around him. This year he finally did, but that does not make you the most valuable player in the league when a guy like Rodgers played much better than you without nearly the overall supporting cast.
If you want to say "Ryan had the better year", fine. You are welcome to define that anyway you want, but there is zero question that Rodgers played better than Ryan this year. None.
Ryan played great, and he deserves the MVP award based on the way the MVP voters vote. Stats stats stats. Cool.
When people say "Ryan had the better year", you are looking at nothing but stats. That is a very, very simple/lazy way to do this. Unfortunately the actual MVP voters do this also. It's kinda sad.
Also, the argument that Ryan had an MVP year being the reason they were not 21/32 in scoring and tops in scoring is kinda silly also. It's more like Ryan just wasn't all that special and could not come close to maximizing the talent around him. This year he finally did, but that does not make you the most valuable player in the league when a guy like Rodgers played much better than you without nearly the overall supporting cast.
If you want to say "Ryan had the better year", fine. You are welcome to define that anyway you want, but there is zero question that Rodgers played better than Ryan this year. None.
Ryan played great, and he deserves the MVP award based on the way the MVP voters vote. Stats stats stats. Cool.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
They keep statistics, so we may as well look at them. It's not all about how guys looked on certain plays or "making something out of nothing."
Since MVP only considers the regular season, looking at 2015 vs. 2016:
Rodgers:
GB 10 wins in 2015 vs. 10 wins in 2016 = net gain of 0
368 points scored vs. 432 points scored = net gain of 64 points
5363 yfs vs, 5900 yfs = net gain of 537 yards
17 total turnovers vs. 17 turnovers = net reduction of 0
Ryan:
ATL 8 wins in 2015 vs. 11 wins in 2016 = net gain of 3 wins
339 points scored vs. 540 points scored = net gain of 201 points
5985 yfs vs. 6653 yfs = net gain of 668 yards
30 total turnovers vs. 11 turnovers = net reduction of 19 turnovers
What really changed in ATL this year? Is adding Mohamed Sanu the reason why the offense exploded this year? The Falcons almost improved their scoring total this year (201 points) by as many points as the Rams scored in the entire 2016 season (224 points).
But apparently none of that should matter in considering who the MVP should be.
Since MVP only considers the regular season, looking at 2015 vs. 2016:
Rodgers:
GB 10 wins in 2015 vs. 10 wins in 2016 = net gain of 0
368 points scored vs. 432 points scored = net gain of 64 points
5363 yfs vs, 5900 yfs = net gain of 537 yards
17 total turnovers vs. 17 turnovers = net reduction of 0
Ryan:
ATL 8 wins in 2015 vs. 11 wins in 2016 = net gain of 3 wins
339 points scored vs. 540 points scored = net gain of 201 points
5985 yfs vs. 6653 yfs = net gain of 668 yards
30 total turnovers vs. 11 turnovers = net reduction of 19 turnovers
What really changed in ATL this year? Is adding Mohamed Sanu the reason why the offense exploded this year? The Falcons almost improved their scoring total this year (201 points) by as many points as the Rams scored in the entire 2016 season (224 points).
But apparently none of that should matter in considering who the MVP should be.
Milkman
Footballguy
Yeah Rodgers has never been close to as bad as Ryan was last year. LOL
This isn't the most improved player award last time I checked.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
So Atlanta did so much better because their long snapper played out of this world? How about their slot corner? Gunner on special teams? Their left guard was dynamite? What made their offense unstoppable? They had almost the same team as the season before. But Atlanta CLEARLY had better players than GB. That had to be it. If that were true, then the Falcons would have been an 11-12 win, bye week team last year and put up video game numbers last year, too.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
So wait.....his supporting cast was the same, thus that wasn't the difference this year.
But couldn't his supporting cast similarly say "he was the same last year.....thus he wasn't the difference this year, we were!"
How can you not see how circular your logic is?
FUBAR
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
Here are some notable differences on offense:Anarchy99 said:
- Replaced starting C Michael Person with Pro Bowl C Alex Mack
- Replaced 34 year old WR2 Roddy White with 27 year old WR2 Sanu
- Added rookie TE Hooper
- Year 2 RB Coleman >>> rookie RB Coleman
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton said:
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Good pointAlex P Keaton said:
CalBear
Footballguy
I really don't see how Devonta Freeman, who had more or less the same season in 2016 as he did in 2015, could claim that Matt Ryan's 2016 was the result of Atlanta's running game. In a complex system where A, B, C, and D are all variables, when A, B, and C stay the same, and D changes, it would be pretty strange to conclude that the change in D was due to A, B, and C.Alex P Keaton said:
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Wait......so every player on the Falcons had the same stats in 2016 and 2015.....except Matt Ryan? Who caught all the extra yards and TDs? Nobody?
Ryan had a great year. An outlier year that he will probably never replicate, particularly once his OC leaves.
CalBear
Footballguy
Seasons which break NFL records don't tend to get replicated. Tom Brady never replicated his 2007, Aaron Rodgers hasn't come close to his 2011. So that's a safe bet.
Freeman had 90 fewer yards and 1 less TD than he did in 2015. Jones had 400 fewer yards and 2 fewer TDs. Coleman got an extra 500 yards and +10 TDs. So between the three of them, the yardage was about equal, and only Coleman scored more.
For the rest of the difference you're looking at marginal role players like Gabriel and Sanu.
The argument essentially becomes, "The backup running back had 8 rushing and 3 receiving TDs, therefore Matt Ryan had a historic passing season." Which is pretty silly.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
That's a distorted framing. But I do get what you are saying more broadly. Appreciate your perspective, even if I still disagree with the overall conclusion. Thanks for the discussion.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Ryan played great in his system.
Rodgers played great in his broken system with no RBs and dinged up WRs. I am amazed the Pack made the playoffs.
Rodgers played great in his broken system with no RBs and dinged up WRs. I am amazed the Pack made the playoffs.
