Why aren't we spending more billons on infrastructure? (1 Viewer)

[Politician Spock]

“But here is the point: If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money brokers collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20 per cent., whereas the currency pays nobody but those who directly contribute to Muscle Shoals in some useful way.

So now you are for printing money to cover building things? That's what they are calling for here. And as I said that is no way to run a modern economy.

Why not?

A documentary created in 2009, that won "Best Documentary" award in 2010, goes into detail as to why we SHOULD run a modern economy on the way Thomas Edison and Henry Ford suggested, which nccommish has concluded is "no way to run a modern economy".

It's called the Secret of Oz:

Fractional reserve banking accounts for over 90% of the overall dollars in existance, when considering all of M3.

When we were on the gold standard, the base money (the other >10% of all dollars in existance) was essentially notes for the gold we held being issued on a fractional reserve basis. So the more gold we had, or the more we leveraged it with more notes for it, was the method of increasing the base money into existence.

After the gold standard was ended, increasing the base money has nothing to do with how much gold we have, or how much we leverage it. The base money is increased by the Fed issuing Federal Reserve Notes, the US Treasury Issuing Bonds, and how fast or slow both entities do these processes on the open bond market determines how many net new US dollars spring into existance today.

So to answer your question, my issue is with both processes (as is the producer's in the video linked above).

Every US dollar in existance today was borrowed into existance with interest due. Doesn't matter if it was done via fractional reserve lending, or by the base money/governmnet bond process. This isn't necessary, as the video above, and his prior 4 hour documentary called the Money Masters, make the case for. And they also explain why we use the debt based monetary system today and why very few people today even think to challenge it, despite how greatly it was challenged in our past.

 

[Politician Spock]

“But here is the point: If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money brokers collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20 per cent., whereas the currency pays nobody but those who directly contribute to Muscle Shoals in some useful way.

So now you are for printing money to cover building things? That's what they are calling for here. And as I said that is no way to run a modern economy.

Why not?

A documentary created in 2009, that won "Best Documentary" award in 2010, goes into detail as to why we SHOULD run a modern economy on the way Thomas Edison and Henry Ford suggested, which nccommish has concluded is "no way to run a modern economy".

It's called the Secret of Oz:

The answer to your question is yes.

 

[TPW]

Why aren't we spending more billons on infrastructure? Because roads, bridges, buildings, and utility structures don't vote. Case closed.

 

[Ignoramus]

Effin jojo has me reading this as "Why don't we spend more bitcoins on infrastructure?"

 

[Slapdash]

“But here is the point: If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money brokers collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20 per cent., whereas the currency pays nobody but those who directly contribute to Muscle Shoals in some useful way.

So now you are for printing money to cover building things? That's what they are calling for here. And as I said that is no way to run a modern economy.

Why not?

A documentary created in 2009, that won "Best Documentary" award in 2010, goes into detail as to why we SHOULD run a modern economy on the way Thomas Edison and Henry Ford suggested, which nccommish has concluded is "no way to run a modern economy".

It's called the Secret of Oz:

The bold is where I lose track of your thought process, unless you are talking about literal currency. The Fed doesn't have to, nor does it often, issue Federal Reserve Notes. When the Fed enganges in open market operations, it simply credits the reserve account of a bank. That reserve doesn't have interest due, at least it didn't until the implementation of misguided IOER policy in October 2008.

 

[Joe T]

There is no excuse for what happened with that bridge in Washington. Our roads and bridges in this country are ####. Why don't we fix them? Whatever it costs, isn't this a worthy expenditure?

It costs a lot to give free medical care, schooling, and all sorts of other social services to Illegals. Something has to give. You made your choice.

Calculate up the total costs for all those social services, and then get back to me.

I've posted them before. You're welcome to go back and find them.

When exactly did you post them? I looked back through all your posts for the past 8 months, and did not see anything like that, and anything much older than that is not really very accurate any longer.

Don't really have a dog in this fight, but if you want to tell someone they are wrong, then tell them why.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=user_activity&mid=22107&search_app=forums&userMode=content&sid=5430925c8c775dce49b16243915ca50a&search_app_filters[forums][searchInKey]=&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&st=200

Tim and I have been discussing immigration policy for years, not months. He knows I've posted a boatload of links to the costs of illegals. and Tim NEVER posts links. I always do to support my position. However, I don't feel compelled to do so repeatedly, especially for Tim who has already seen them.

What Strike writes here is largely true. I don't agree much with either his sources or his conclusions, but he has been very good about links. His comment that I never post links is false, however.

"Almost never" would have been accurate, however.

 

[Tom Hagen]

Effin jojo has me reading this as "Why don't we spend more bitcoins on infrastructure?"

I would be willing to pay higher taxes if they were payable in a currency that I could make more of on my home computer.

 

[Joe T]

Effin jojo has me reading this as "Why don't we spend more bitcoins on infrastructure?"

lol, glad I'm not the only one.

 

[fatkid]

If our infrastructure is a "D" then most of the rest of the world is a solid "F".

That was my thought. Who gets an "A"?

 

[Politician Spock]

“But here is the point: If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money brokers collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20 per cent., whereas the currency pays nobody but those who directly contribute to Muscle Shoals in some useful way.

So now you are for printing money to cover building things? That's what they are calling for here. And as I said that is no way to run a modern economy.

Why not?

A documentary created in 2009, that won "Best Documentary" award in 2010, goes into detail as to why we SHOULD run a modern economy on the way Thomas Edison and Henry Ford suggested, which nccommish has concluded is "no way to run a modern economy".

It's called the Secret of Oz:

I'm see no distinction between a paper issuance by the Federal Reserve or a digital one. To me they are both promisary notes issued by the entity, despite their different forms. I'll stop referring to both of them as Federal Reserve Notes if it makes it easier to follow.

It is not the Federal Reserve's issuance that has interest due. It is the Treasury Bond that does. The buyer of the Treasury bond is entitled to the bonds interest rate. Both the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury are issuing their notes out of thin air and swapping them (although not directly as the process goes through the open bond market). But despite neither of them having existed before the entities issue them out of thin air, the holder of the Treasury's note is entitled to interest, where as the holder of the Fed's note is not. As Thomas Edison says, that's stupid and unnecessary. As the only reason the Fed's issuance has any value is because it was swapped for the Treasury's bond. So the value IS the US Treasury issuing the note. But instead of us using the Treasury's note as currency, we swap it for the Fed's note and use the Fed's note as currency... creating interest due on every dollar we use. As Thomas Edison says, if the Treasury bond gives the Fed's note value, then there's no reason we shouldn't just use the Treasury bond (a note) as currency, and get rid of the interest bearing process of swapping the Treasury's note (the bond) for the Fed's note so we can use the Fed's note as currency AND PAY INTEREST ON THAT PROCESS!!!!

 

[Slapdash]

“But here is the point: If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money brokers collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20 per cent., whereas the currency pays nobody but those who directly contribute to Muscle Shoals in some useful way.

So now you are for printing money to cover building things? That's what they are calling for here. And as I said that is no way to run a modern economy.

Why not?

A documentary created in 2009, that won "Best Documentary" award in 2010, goes into detail as to why we SHOULD run a modern economy on the way Thomas Edison and Henry Ford suggested, which nccommish has concluded is "no way to run a modern economy".

It's called the Secret of Oz:

Thank you, I think I understand your perspective a bit better. Circling back, it sounds like your contention is that this process enriches the banks either as the middle-man or as the holders of interest-bearing assets. As a follow-up, would you think it is a good idea to fully nationalize the Federal Reserve and regional banks based on this rationale? Seems to me that you think this is the state of things in part because private banks own the regional Feds which have a big seat on the FOMC.

I wonder if you have ever looked into Modern Monetary Theory. Seems like it has some things in common with your thought process like veiwing the Fed and Treasury together. Even if not, it may be an interesting read.

 

[Politician Spock]

“But here is the point: If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money brokers collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20 per cent., whereas the currency pays nobody but those who directly contribute to Muscle Shoals in some useful way.

So now you are for printing money to cover building things? That's what they are calling for here. And as I said that is no way to run a modern economy.

Why not?

A documentary created in 2009, that won "Best Documentary" award in 2010, goes into detail as to why we SHOULD run a modern economy on the way Thomas Edison and Henry Ford suggested, which nccommish has concluded is "no way to run a modern economy".

It's called the Secret of Oz:

I have no problem with any entity being "enriched" from supplying society with a service. Banking services would still exist even if the US Government issued its own debt free money. They would just operate under a different business model. Somewhat similar to peer to peer lending services, plus other fiancial services. The fractional reserve lending practice and the US bond method of currency creation would no longer exists however. The video explains this somewhat near the end.

The problem I have is that this system goes far beyond just enriching the banks for the service they provide. It gives them a power that not only should a private entity NOT posses in a free society, but also a power reserved to the people by the Constitution.

But just like any protection provided by the constitution, if you hammer away at it long enough, eventually you'll find a hole to penetrate the protection. Not only did the banks find, expose, and benefit from finally finding that hole, in the process they've corrupted our political system... because without the corrupt influence the banks impose on our political system, they would risk having the people once again return to the days of talking about what money is, where it comes from, who controls how much there is, etc, etc... just like average Americans did for the first 125 to 150 years of this country's existance. All the political partisanship, posturing, and crap that divides this country exists because the banks don't want people to consider what is money, like people naturally do when left to their own thought processes.

ETA: I'll look into the link you provided. I'm interested in anything that is better than what we have now.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Why can't we spend more money on infrastructure projects, which generally will create more blue collar jobs, and spend less money on unemployment and welfare? We create a bunch of jobs that a bunch of poor/unemployed people can reasonably do at the same time we cut back on the free rides for poor/unemployed people? Sure, we can't make them work these blue collar jobs fixing bridges and highways, but if they want to stay on the government dole there will be a lot less of that dole for them. It may not be net/net of course, but that's certainly a way to increase spending on something important while decreasing the spending on something, IMHO, that is less important. And given that alot of our poor/unemployed people are in that situation because blue collar jobs have been outsourced to other countries, the spending on training the workforce shouldn't be that bad. Seems like a win/win for both parties. Make our infrastructure stronger, grow jobs and cut spending on welfare.

What am I missing?

 

[Amused to Death]

I-495 Bridge Closed Because Of Tilting Support ColumnsWILMINGTON, Del. (CBS) — The Delaware Department of Transportation (DelDOT) announced an immediate closure of Bridge 1-813 over the Christina River on 1-495 that went into effect Monday.

DelDOT closed the bridge at 6 p.m. Monday because an inspection showed four of the 37 support columns are tilted as much as four percent out of vertical alignment. This is expected to cause a significant impact to commuters.

DelDOT says their bridge engineers and consultant are on the scene and are placing tilt sensors to monitor the bridge.

Bridge inspectors continued to assess support columns under the bridge Tuesday morning. They also plan to check a tilt meter installed Monday that will give them information on whether the bridge is moving.

“We’ve got our bridge engineers and bridge contractors who are examining the bridge. They’re putting a tilt meter on the bridge just to measure if the bridge is still moving,” Secretary of Transportation Shailen Bhatt said.

I-495 will be closed northbound at Terminal Avenue and message boards are in place on I-95 and SR 1 and Rt. 13. Local northbound traffic can stay on I-495 to Terminal Avenue. I-495 southbound will be closed at the Pennsylvania State Line. Southbound traffic will be directed to take I-95 southbound.

DelDOT says they received a report about an anomaly with a column late Friday. An inspection crew was sent out Monday morning. Additionally, DelDOT says a notification was received from a DelDOT Equipment Operator Monday morning who noticed a shifting of the concrete barrier on the road surface.

After reviewing the data and pictures, DelDOT’s bridge engineer recommended closure until further investigation can be done.

“I would not characterize it as ‘we were this close from disaster,’ it’s more of you know, we’ve got a situation that is abnormal and so we want to take the necessary steps to make sure that everything is safe,” Bhatt said.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Why can't we spend more money on infrastructure projects, which generally will create more blue collar jobs, and spend less money on unemployment and welfare? We create a bunch of jobs that a bunch of poor/unemployed people can reasonably do at the same time we cut back on the free rides for poor/unemployed people? Sure, we can't make them work these blue collar jobs fixing bridges and highways, but if they want to stay on the government dole there will be a lot less of that dole for them. It may not be net/net of course, but that's certainly a way to increase spending on something important while decreasing the spending on something, IMHO, that is less important. And given that alot of our poor/unemployed people are in that situation because blue collar jobs have been outsourced to other countries, the spending on training the workforce shouldn't be that bad. Seems like a win/win for both parties. Make our infrastructure stronger, grow jobs and cut spending on welfare.

What am I missing?

The fact that the current GOP isn't very good at economics?

 

[datonn]

It's all just monkeys flinging poo at one another from their various ideological cocoons.

If hard-core Republicans had their way, society would probably be reduced to "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" within a generation...due to the "#### the poor/sick/needy" attitude. And since those people won't simply go away and/or die quietly (or at LEAST stop breeding)? Crime and violence, as much in attempt to simply survive as anything, would have us up #### creek as a society. Which is why I suppose folks will defend their right to own all sorts of guns/ammo to their dying breath.

If hard-core Democrats had their way? We'd be bankrupt as a nation. Either that, or inflation would likely skyrocket...and the folks who print our money would probably wear-out all their equipment.

Seems like the only possible solution out of our future cluster-#### as a nation is technology. Instead of pouring trillions into more and more asphalt and bridges, what if we didn't need hard-surface roads at all? I know we're MILES away from the "flying car," but if you can develop vehicles that don't need roads (in the traditional sense) to get from Point A to Point B? You can dramatically reduce those infrastructure costs. But that's too pie-in-the-sky (we haven't had a real "land a man on the moon" goal as a nation since Kennedy, IMHO) ...and it's probably unAmerican or communist/socialist (Tea Party trolls), so please go back to flinging poo. As it's better than reality TV to keep the rest of us entertained.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I-495 Bridge Closed Because Of Tilting Support Columns

WILMINGTON, Del. (CBS) — The Delaware Department of Transportation (DelDOT) announced an immediate closure of Bridge 1-813 over the Christina River on 1-495 that went into effect Monday.

DelDOT closed the bridge at 6 p.m. Monday because an inspection showed four of the 37 support columns are tilted as much as four percent out of vertical alignment. This is expected to cause a significant impact to commuters.

DelDOT says their bridge engineers and consultant are on the scene and are placing tilt sensors to monitor the bridge.

Bridge inspectors continued to assess support columns under the bridge Tuesday morning. They also plan to check a tilt meter installed Monday that will give them information on whether the bridge is moving.

“We’ve got our bridge engineers and bridge contractors who are examining the bridge. They’re putting a tilt meter on the bridge just to measure if the bridge is still moving,” Secretary of Transportation Shailen Bhatt said.

I-495 will be closed northbound at Terminal Avenue and message boards are in place on I-95 and SR 1 and Rt. 13. Local northbound traffic can stay on I-495 to Terminal Avenue. I-495 southbound will be closed at the Pennsylvania State Line. Southbound traffic will be directed to take I-95 southbound.

DelDOT says they received a report about an anomaly with a column late Friday. An inspection crew was sent out Monday morning. Additionally, DelDOT says a notification was received from a DelDOT Equipment Operator Monday morning who noticed a shifting of the concrete barrier on the road surface.

After reviewing the data and pictures, DelDOT’s bridge engineer recommended closure until further investigation can be done.

“I would not characterize it as ‘we were this close from disaster,’ it’s more of you know, we’ve got a situation that is abnormal and so we want to take the necessary steps to make sure that everything is safe,” Bhatt said.

I for one am glad we didn't borrow money at historically cheap rates in order to put 10s of thousands of people back to work at a time of high unemployment, while also taking advantage of cheap labor rates in order to fix these problems we knew needed fixing.

 

[tommyGunZ]

It's all just monkeys flinging poo at one another from their various ideological cocoons.

If hard-core Republicans had their way, society would probably be reduced to "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" within a generation...due to the "#### the poor/sick/needy" attitude. And since those people won't simply go away and/or die quietly (or at LEAST stop breeding)? Crime and violence, as much in attempt to simply survive as anything, would have us up #### creek as a society. Which is why I suppose folks will defend their right to own all sorts of guns/ammo to their dying breath.

If hard-core Democrats had their way? We'd be bankrupt as a nation. Either that, or inflation would likely skyrocket...and the folks who print our money would probably wear-out all their equipment.

Seems like the only possible solution out of our future cluster-#### as a nation is technology. Instead of pouring trillions into more and more asphalt and bridges, what if we didn't need hard-surface roads at all? I know we're MILES away from the "flying car," but if you can develop vehicles that don't need roads (in the traditional sense) to get from Point A to Point B? You can dramatically reduce those infrastructure costs. But that's too pie-in-the-sky (we haven't had a real "land a man on the moon" goal as a nation since Kennedy, IMHO) ...and it's probably unAmerican or communist/socialist (Tea Party trolls), so please go back to flinging poo. As it's better than reality TV to keep the rest of us entertained.

bullspit.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

I-495 Bridge Closed Because Of Tilting Support Columns

WILMINGTON, Del. (CBS) — The Delaware Department of Transportation (DelDOT) announced an immediate closure of Bridge 1-813 over the Christina River on 1-495 that went into effect Monday.

DelDOT closed the bridge at 6 p.m. Monday because an inspection showed four of the 37 support columns are tilted as much as four percent out of vertical alignment. This is expected to cause a significant impact to commuters.

DelDOT says their bridge engineers and consultant are on the scene and are placing tilt sensors to monitor the bridge.

Bridge inspectors continued to assess support columns under the bridge Tuesday morning. They also plan to check a tilt meter installed Monday that will give them information on whether the bridge is moving.

“We’ve got our bridge engineers and bridge contractors who are examining the bridge. They’re putting a tilt meter on the bridge just to measure if the bridge is still moving,” Secretary of Transportation Shailen Bhatt said.

I-495 will be closed northbound at Terminal Avenue and message boards are in place on I-95 and SR 1 and Rt. 13. Local northbound traffic can stay on I-495 to Terminal Avenue. I-495 southbound will be closed at the Pennsylvania State Line. Southbound traffic will be directed to take I-95 southbound.

DelDOT says they received a report about an anomaly with a column late Friday. An inspection crew was sent out Monday morning. Additionally, DelDOT says a notification was received from a DelDOT Equipment Operator Monday morning who noticed a shifting of the concrete barrier on the road surface.

After reviewing the data and pictures, DelDOT’s bridge engineer recommended closure until further investigation can be done.

“I would not characterize it as ‘we were this close from disaster,’ it’s more of you know, we’ve got a situation that is abnormal and so we want to take the necessary steps to make sure that everything is safe,” Bhatt said.

I for one am glad we didn't borrow money at historically cheap rates in order to put 10s of thousands of people back to work at a time of high unemployment, while also taking advantage of cheap labor rates in order to fix these problems we knew needed fixing.

That would have been sooooooo stupid.

 

[Slapdash]

I-495 Bridge Closed Because Of Tilting Support Columns

WILMINGTON, Del. (CBS) — The Delaware Department of Transportation (DelDOT) announced an immediate closure of Bridge 1-813 over the Christina River on 1-495 that went into effect Monday.

DelDOT closed the bridge at 6 p.m. Monday because an inspection showed four of the 37 support columns are tilted as much as four percent out of vertical alignment. This is expected to cause a significant impact to commuters.

DelDOT says their bridge engineers and consultant are on the scene and are placing tilt sensors to monitor the bridge.

Bridge inspectors continued to assess support columns under the bridge Tuesday morning. They also plan to check a tilt meter installed Monday that will give them information on whether the bridge is moving.

“We’ve got our bridge engineers and bridge contractors who are examining the bridge. They’re putting a tilt meter on the bridge just to measure if the bridge is still moving,” Secretary of Transportation Shailen Bhatt said.

I-495 will be closed northbound at Terminal Avenue and message boards are in place on I-95 and SR 1 and Rt. 13. Local northbound traffic can stay on I-495 to Terminal Avenue. I-495 southbound will be closed at the Pennsylvania State Line. Southbound traffic will be directed to take I-95 southbound.

DelDOT says they received a report about an anomaly with a column late Friday. An inspection crew was sent out Monday morning. Additionally, DelDOT says a notification was received from a DelDOT Equipment Operator Monday morning who noticed a shifting of the concrete barrier on the road surface.

After reviewing the data and pictures, DelDOT’s bridge engineer recommended closure until further investigation can be done.

“I would not characterize it as ‘we were this close from disaster,’ it’s more of you know, we’ve got a situation that is abnormal and so we want to take the necessary steps to make sure that everything is safe,” Bhatt said.

I for one am glad we didn't borrow money at historically cheap rates in order to put 10s of thousands of people back to work at a time of high unemployment, while also taking advantage of cheap labor rates in order to fix these problems we knew needed fixing.

That would have been sooooooo stupid.

Really dodged a bullet there.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's all just monkeys flinging poo at one another from their various ideological cocoons.

If hard-core Republicans had their way, society would probably be reduced to "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" within a generation...due to the "#### the poor/sick/needy" attitude. And since those people won't simply go away and/or die quietly (or at LEAST stop breeding)? Crime and violence, as much in attempt to simply survive as anything, would have us up #### creek as a society. Which is why I suppose folks will defend their right to own all sorts of guns/ammo to their dying breath.

If hard-core Democrats had their way? We'd be bankrupt as a nation. Either that, or inflation would likely skyrocket...and the folks who print our money would probably wear-out all their equipment.

Seems like the only possible solution out of our future cluster-#### as a nation is technology. Instead of pouring trillions into more and more asphalt and bridges, what if we didn't need hard-surface roads at all? I know we're MILES away from the "flying car," but if you can develop vehicles that don't need roads (in the traditional sense) to get from Point A to Point B? You can dramatically reduce those infrastructure costs. But that's too pie-in-the-sky (we haven't had a real "land a man on the moon" goal as a nation since Kennedy, IMHO) ...and it's probably unAmerican or communist/socialist (Tea Party trolls), so please go back to flinging poo. As it's better than reality TV to keep the rest of us entertained.

bullspit.

I kind of think he has a point actually. (Not talking about the Demo thing, I mean the overall point).

We spent about $1 trillion on stimulus in 2009. If we had devoted all of that to roads, or bridges, or hospitals, or clinics, or medical education, or some real practical combination of some specific project - like the TVA - I think people would get behind that kind of thing more.

And I don't think it would be "socialist" because roads, at least, are a key part of what government should be working on.

Personally I think this kind of spending is beneficial and also more helpful, and since it employs people, it is actually beneficial as opposed to just plain subsidies and outright support.

And more moderates and independents, and even some on the right, would support it because everyone can see the changes and agree they're needed.

 

[Slapdash]

It's all just monkeys flinging poo at one another from their various ideological cocoons.

If hard-core Republicans had their way, society would probably be reduced to "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" within a generation...due to the "#### the poor/sick/needy" attitude. And since those people won't simply go away and/or die quietly (or at LEAST stop breeding)? Crime and violence, as much in attempt to simply survive as anything, would have us up #### creek as a society. Which is why I suppose folks will defend their right to own all sorts of guns/ammo to their dying breath.

If hard-core Democrats had their way? We'd be bankrupt as a nation. Either that, or inflation would likely skyrocket...and the folks who print our money would probably wear-out all their equipment.

Seems like the only possible solution out of our future cluster-#### as a nation is technology. Instead of pouring trillions into more and more asphalt and bridges, what if we didn't need hard-surface roads at all? I know we're MILES away from the "flying car," but if you can develop vehicles that don't need roads (in the traditional sense) to get from Point A to Point B? You can dramatically reduce those infrastructure costs. But that's too pie-in-the-sky (we haven't had a real "land a man on the moon" goal as a nation since Kennedy, IMHO) ...and it's probably unAmerican or communist/socialist (Tea Party trolls), so please go back to flinging poo. As it's better than reality TV to keep the rest of us entertained.

bullspit.

I kind of think he has a point actually. (Not talking about the Demo thing, I mean the overall point).

We spent about $1 trillion on stimulus in 2009. If we had devoted all of that to roads, or bridges, or hospitals, or clinics, or medical education, or some real practical combination of some specific project - like the TVA - I think people would get behind that kind of thing more.

And I don't think it would be "socialist" because roads, at least, are a key part of what government should be working on.

Personally I think this kind of spending is beneficial and also more helpful, and since it employs people, it is actually beneficial as opposed to just plain subsidies and outright support.

And more moderates and independents, and even some on the right, would support it because everyone can see the changes and agree they're needed.

It was more like $830B. Somehow, in Congress, the infrastructure component got smaller and smaller while the tax cuts grew.

 

[tommyGunZ]

It's all just monkeys flinging poo at one another from their various ideological cocoons.

If hard-core Republicans had their way, society would probably be reduced to "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" within a generation...due to the "#### the poor/sick/needy" attitude. And since those people won't simply go away and/or die quietly (or at LEAST stop breeding)? Crime and violence, as much in attempt to simply survive as anything, would have us up #### creek as a society. Which is why I suppose folks will defend their right to own all sorts of guns/ammo to their dying breath.

If hard-core Democrats had their way? We'd be bankrupt as a nation. Either that, or inflation would likely skyrocket...and the folks who print our money would probably wear-out all their equipment.

Seems like the only possible solution out of our future cluster-#### as a nation is technology. Instead of pouring trillions into more and more asphalt and bridges, what if we didn't need hard-surface roads at all? I know we're MILES away from the "flying car," but if you can develop vehicles that don't need roads (in the traditional sense) to get from Point A to Point B? You can dramatically reduce those infrastructure costs. But that's too pie-in-the-sky (we haven't had a real "land a man on the moon" goal as a nation since Kennedy, IMHO) ...and it's probably unAmerican or communist/socialist (Tea Party trolls), so please go back to flinging poo. As it's better than reality TV to keep the rest of us entertained.

bullspit.

I kind of think he has a point actually. (Not talking about the Demo thing, I mean the overall point).

We spent about $1 trillion on stimulus in 2009. If we had devoted all of that to roads, or bridges, or hospitals, or clinics, or medical education, or some real practical combination of some specific project - like the TVA - I think people would get behind that kind of thing more.

And I don't think it would be "socialist" because roads, at least, are a key part of what government should be working on.

Personally I think this kind of spending is beneficial and also more helpful, and since it employs people, it is actually beneficial as opposed to just plain subsidies and outright support.

And more moderates and independents, and even some on the right, would support it because everyone can see the changes and agree they're needed.

So things that are by the very definition a result of socialistic policies, aren't really "socialist' b/c of your personal interpretation of what gov't should and shouldn't do?

And no, plenty of moderates and people on the right opposed such stimulative policies due in large part to the OMG THE DEBTS IS $17 TRILLIONS fear mongering. Now, we'll end up spending far more to do the same job, at a time that is less beneficial to the overall economy.

This isn't a surprise. Anyone with a brain saw the downturn as an opportunity to fix a bunch of #### on the cheap when demand was virtually non-existent on the private side. So it's not only revisionist, but flat out wrong to come back here now with the "moderates and some republicans would have supported this" nonsense.

 

[humpback]

Gunz is gold!

 

[datonn]

Let me regale you with one tiny example of government hard at work. I live in "Mayberry." Small, homogeneous, somewhat "cut-off" from the outside world (lots 'o Tea Partiers here who believe in religious freedom (only if you're a Christian), believe in a 6,000 year old Earth, even a few who will tell you that the Sun orbits the Earth...because the Bible doesn't say otherwise (and since science says otherwise, and we ALL "know" that science is of the devil, the opposite of whatever science says is true).

I volunteer to maintain a 15-acre area in our community parks system. An area that used to be an abandoned street, two dry landfills, a flood plain, a municipal burn area for brush, and a gravel pit. Now biking/walking trails, an 18-hole disc golf course, various honey holes for fishing, et al. Been doing it for ~7 years, and I am happy to give back to my community in that way. Myself and another individual who helps me with bigger chainsaw work approached our City Manager about 18 months ago...telling him about 2-3 problem areas along the trails where if we didn't take a few trees down, the trails system was going to be damaged. Maybe even need to be temporarily closed until repairs could be made, due to public safety issues. We'd have done the work for free, as we do with other areas of the land, but just wanted his approval to rubber-stamp the work so if anyone asked what we were doing, we could give them a phone number at City Hall to call. The City Manager effectively said "duly noted," then politely told my volunteer to go #### himself (thinking he was just trying to worm his way into some free fire wood, sigh).

About three months pass, and I get a call. A huge cottonwood tree has fallen into the river (in one of those 2-3 problem areas we had identified), and its root system destroyed about a 20-foot section of the trail...now a 7-8 foot deep pit filled with river water. The City had to subsequently close the trail for all uses, then after ~4-5 months (MONTHS!), put a bid out to not repair, but re-route that section of trail around said damage and hole in the ground (the hole and even orange temporary fencing is still there). Contractor comes in, 5-6 workers deep, and spends a day and a half laying a new gravel base and then asphalt on top...billing the City thousands of dollars in the process (about $3 for every person who lives in the town). When it could have been prevented from ever happening at a grand total cost of $0.

Government...hard at work. [/thread hijack]

 

[RCon]

I-495 Bridge Closed Because Of Tilting Support Columns

WILMINGTON, Del. (CBS) — The Delaware Department of Transportation (DelDOT) announced an immediate closure of Bridge 1-813 over the Christina River on 1-495 that went into effect Monday.

DelDOT closed the bridge at 6 p.m. Monday because an inspection showed four of the 37 support columns are tilted as much as four percent out of vertical alignment. This is expected to cause a significant impact to commuters.

DelDOT says their bridge engineers and consultant are on the scene and are placing tilt sensors to monitor the bridge.

Bridge inspectors continued to assess support columns under the bridge Tuesday morning. They also plan to check a tilt meter installed Monday that will give them information on whether the bridge is moving.

“We’ve got our bridge engineers and bridge contractors who are examining the bridge. They’re putting a tilt meter on the bridge just to measure if the bridge is still moving,” Secretary of Transportation Shailen Bhatt said.

I-495 will be closed northbound at Terminal Avenue and message boards are in place on I-95 and SR 1 and Rt. 13. Local northbound traffic can stay on I-495 to Terminal Avenue. I-495 southbound will be closed at the Pennsylvania State Line. Southbound traffic will be directed to take I-95 southbound.

DelDOT says they received a report about an anomaly with a column late Friday. An inspection crew was sent out Monday morning. Additionally, DelDOT says a notification was received from a DelDOT Equipment Operator Monday morning who noticed a shifting of the concrete barrier on the road surface.

After reviewing the data and pictures, DelDOT’s bridge engineer recommended closure until further investigation can be done.

“I would not characterize it as ‘we were this close from disaster,’ it’s more of you know, we’ve got a situation that is abnormal and so we want to take the necessary steps to make sure that everything is safe,” Bhatt said.

I for one am glad we didn't borrow money at historically cheap rates in order to put 10s of thousands of people back to work at a time of high unemployment, while also taking advantage of cheap labor rates in order to fix these problems we knew needed fixing.

We didn't? I thought that was the whole purpose of the stimulus? Oh wait, we borrowed money at low rates and then squandered it on political cronyism...

 

[The Commish]

Why can't we spend more money on infrastructure projects, which generally will create more blue collar jobs, and spend less money on unemployment and welfare? We create a bunch of jobs that a bunch of poor/unemployed people can reasonably do at the same time we cut back on the free rides for poor/unemployed people? Sure, we can't make them work these blue collar jobs fixing bridges and highways, but if they want to stay on the government dole there will be a lot less of that dole for them. It may not be net/net of course, but that's certainly a way to increase spending on something important while decreasing the spending on something, IMHO, that is less important. And given that alot of our poor/unemployed people are in that situation because blue collar jobs have been outsourced to other countries, the spending on training the workforce shouldn't be that bad. Seems like a win/win for both parties. Make our infrastructure stronger, grow jobs and cut spending on welfare.

What am I missing?

Because our politicians suck with money and proper implementation?

 

[Amused to Death]

My experience was the stimulus money here in NJ went to minor roadway improvements and repairs. Short-fuse projects that could be designed and implemented quickly. The Turnpike Authority used at least some of their allotment on hundreds of Variable Message Signs (or Dynamic Message Signs) along the Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway. NJDOT used stimulus money to install and repair guide rail. I don't know of any significant road or bridge projects funded by it.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I-495 Bridge Closed Because Of Tilting Support Columns

WILMINGTON, Del. (CBS) — The Delaware Department of Transportation (DelDOT) announced an immediate closure of Bridge 1-813 over the Christina River on 1-495 that went into effect Monday.

DelDOT closed the bridge at 6 p.m. Monday because an inspection showed four of the 37 support columns are tilted as much as four percent out of vertical alignment. This is expected to cause a significant impact to commuters.

DelDOT says their bridge engineers and consultant are on the scene and are placing tilt sensors to monitor the bridge.

Bridge inspectors continued to assess support columns under the bridge Tuesday morning. They also plan to check a tilt meter installed Monday that will give them information on whether the bridge is moving.

“We’ve got our bridge engineers and bridge contractors who are examining the bridge. They’re putting a tilt meter on the bridge just to measure if the bridge is still moving,” Secretary of Transportation Shailen Bhatt said.

I-495 will be closed northbound at Terminal Avenue and message boards are in place on I-95 and SR 1 and Rt. 13. Local northbound traffic can stay on I-495 to Terminal Avenue. I-495 southbound will be closed at the Pennsylvania State Line. Southbound traffic will be directed to take I-95 southbound.

DelDOT says they received a report about an anomaly with a column late Friday. An inspection crew was sent out Monday morning. Additionally, DelDOT says a notification was received from a DelDOT Equipment Operator Monday morning who noticed a shifting of the concrete barrier on the road surface.

After reviewing the data and pictures, DelDOT’s bridge engineer recommended closure until further investigation can be done.

“I would not characterize it as ‘we were this close from disaster,’ it’s more of you know, we’ve got a situation that is abnormal and so we want to take the necessary steps to make sure that everything is safe,” Bhatt said.

I for one am glad we didn't borrow money at historically cheap rates in order to put 10s of thousands of people back to work at a time of high unemployment, while also taking advantage of cheap labor rates in order to fix these problems we knew needed fixing.

We didn't? I thought that was the whole purpose of the stimulus? Oh wait, we borrowed money at low rates and then squandered it on political cronyism...

Tax cuts are political cronyism?

 

[Joe T]

Didn't they try to spend the stimulus on infrastructure, but quickly realized they couldn't get enough people to work because they were too comfortable on unemployment and SNAP cards?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

We didn't? I thought that was the whole purpose of the stimulus? Oh wait, we borrowed money at low rates and then squandered it on political cronyism...

Tax cuts are political cronyism?

A little more than 1/3 went to tax cuts. And few of them went to the people you dislike so much.

Link

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-we-still-cant-afford-to-fix-americas-broken-infrastructure/

 

[Politician Spock]

Why can't we spend more money on infrastructure projects, which generally will create more blue collar jobs, and spend less money on unemployment and welfare? We create a bunch of jobs that a bunch of poor/unemployed people can reasonably do at the same time we cut back on the free rides for poor/unemployed people? Sure, we can't make them work these blue collar jobs fixing bridges and highways, but if they want to stay on the government dole there will be a lot less of that dole for them. It may not be net/net of course, but that's certainly a way to increase spending on something important while decreasing the spending on something, IMHO, that is less important. And given that alot of our poor/unemployed people are in that situation because blue collar jobs have been outsourced to other countries, the spending on training the workforce shouldn't be that bad. Seems like a win/win for both parties. Make our infrastructure stronger, grow jobs and cut spending on welfare.

What am I missing?

Because our politicians suck with money and proper implementation?

It's the corporate lobbying that is the problem. Corporations use lobbying to make sure their lips are sealed entirely around the government's teets, leaving the people who need these programs with little to no help.

 

[Sarnoff]

Why can't we spend more money on infrastructure projects, which generally will create more blue collar jobs, and spend less money on unemployment and welfare? We create a bunch of jobs that a bunch of poor/unemployed people can reasonably do at the same time we cut back on the free rides for poor/unemployed people? Sure, we can't make them work these blue collar jobs fixing bridges and highways, but if they want to stay on the government dole there will be a lot less of that dole for them. It may not be net/net of course, but that's certainly a way to increase spending on something important while decreasing the spending on something, IMHO, that is less important. And given that alot of our poor/unemployed people are in that situation because blue collar jobs have been outsourced to other countries, the spending on training the workforce shouldn't be that bad. Seems like a win/win for both parties. Make our infrastructure stronger, grow jobs and cut spending on welfare.

What am I missing?

The fact that the current GOP isn't very good at economics?

Yeah! Someday we gotta vote the GOP out of office. I can't believe they squandered the last 6 years when this could have been taken care of.

 

[Sarnoff]

I-495 Bridge Closed Because Of Tilting Support Columns

WILMINGTON, Del. (CBS) — The Delaware Department of Transportation (DelDOT) announced an immediate closure of Bridge 1-813 over the Christina River on 1-495 that went into effect Monday.

DelDOT closed the bridge at 6 p.m. Monday because an inspection showed four of the 37 support columns are tilted as much as four percent out of vertical alignment. This is expected to cause a significant impact to commuters.

DelDOT says their bridge engineers and consultant are on the scene and are placing tilt sensors to monitor the bridge.

Bridge inspectors continued to assess support columns under the bridge Tuesday morning. They also plan to check a tilt meter installed Monday that will give them information on whether the bridge is moving.

“We’ve got our bridge engineers and bridge contractors who are examining the bridge. They’re putting a tilt meter on the bridge just to measure if the bridge is still moving,” Secretary of Transportation Shailen Bhatt said.

I-495 will be closed northbound at Terminal Avenue and message boards are in place on I-95 and SR 1 and Rt. 13. Local northbound traffic can stay on I-495 to Terminal Avenue. I-495 southbound will be closed at the Pennsylvania State Line. Southbound traffic will be directed to take I-95 southbound.

DelDOT says they received a report about an anomaly with a column late Friday. An inspection crew was sent out Monday morning. Additionally, DelDOT says a notification was received from a DelDOT Equipment Operator Monday morning who noticed a shifting of the concrete barrier on the road surface.

After reviewing the data and pictures, DelDOT’s bridge engineer recommended closure until further investigation can be done.

“I would not characterize it as ‘we were this close from disaster,’ it’s more of you know, we’ve got a situation that is abnormal and so we want to take the necessary steps to make sure that everything is safe,” Bhatt said.

I for one am glad we didn't borrow money at historically cheap rates in order to put 10s of thousands of people back to work at a time of high unemployment, while also taking advantage of cheap labor rates in order to fix these problems we knew needed fixing.

We didn't? I thought that was the whole purpose of the stimulus? Oh wait, we borrowed money at low rates and then squandered it on political cronyism...

I've been preaching investment in infrastructure as stimulus for a decade, it seems, and it never happens. We need a better electrical grid. We need to reinforce bridges and tunnels. We need better high-speed data routes. We need to rebuild old nuclear plants around thorium energy. Lots of blue collar jobs available but no one wants to invest in it, instead favoring trendier options that have little real impact but look prettier in the press. Money for jobs for old men doesn't sell.

 

[RCon]

I-495 Bridge Closed Because Of Tilting Support Columns

WILMINGTON, Del. (CBS) — The Delaware Department of Transportation (DelDOT) announced an immediate closure of Bridge 1-813 over the Christina River on 1-495 that went into effect Monday.

DelDOT closed the bridge at 6 p.m. Monday because an inspection showed four of the 37 support columns are tilted as much as four percent out of vertical alignment. This is expected to cause a significant impact to commuters.

DelDOT says their bridge engineers and consultant are on the scene and are placing tilt sensors to monitor the bridge.

Bridge inspectors continued to assess support columns under the bridge Tuesday morning. They also plan to check a tilt meter installed Monday that will give them information on whether the bridge is moving.

“We’ve got our bridge engineers and bridge contractors who are examining the bridge. They’re putting a tilt meter on the bridge just to measure if the bridge is still moving,” Secretary of Transportation Shailen Bhatt said.

I-495 will be closed northbound at Terminal Avenue and message boards are in place on I-95 and SR 1 and Rt. 13. Local northbound traffic can stay on I-495 to Terminal Avenue. I-495 southbound will be closed at the Pennsylvania State Line. Southbound traffic will be directed to take I-95 southbound.

DelDOT says they received a report about an anomaly with a column late Friday. An inspection crew was sent out Monday morning. Additionally, DelDOT says a notification was received from a DelDOT Equipment Operator Monday morning who noticed a shifting of the concrete barrier on the road surface.

After reviewing the data and pictures, DelDOT’s bridge engineer recommended closure until further investigation can be done.

“I would not characterize it as ‘we were this close from disaster,’ it’s more of you know, we’ve got a situation that is abnormal and so we want to take the necessary steps to make sure that everything is safe,” Bhatt said.

I for one am glad we didn't borrow money at historically cheap rates in order to put 10s of thousands of people back to work at a time of high unemployment, while also taking advantage of cheap labor rates in order to fix these problems we knew needed fixing.

We didn't? I thought that was the whole purpose of the stimulus? Oh wait, we borrowed money at low rates and then squandered it on political cronyism...

Tax cuts are political cronyism?

Well, duh. And don't pretend there wasn't plenty of billions in the stimulus for infrastructure, nearly all of which was squandered.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

From Scott Sumner:

I think a better comparison for New York would be a high income, world-class city like Singapore or Hong Kong or Dubai. Those places are able to build very good infrastructure quickly and at low cost. They might use Bangladeshi migrant workers at $1/hour instead of American "prevailing wage" workers at $50/hour. Indeed even cities like Paris and Berlin build new subway lines at 1/7th the cost of the New York project. A small part of this cost gap may be due to physical differences between the various cities, but by no means all of it…

This demonstrates one of the many internal contradictions of American progressivism. (And by the way, American conservatives have just as many internal contradictions.) You can have your strong public employee unions, "prevailing wages" and restrictive work rules, or you can have nice infrastructure. New Yorkers have (perhaps unknowingly) made their choice. Now they must live with the consequences. Few progressives (with the notable exception of Matt Yglesias) understand these internal contradictions.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Matt Yglesias.

 

[Joe T]

From Scott Sumner:

I think a better comparison for New York would be a high income, world-class city like Singapore or Hong Kong or Dubai. Those places are able to build very good infrastructure quickly and at low cost. They might use Bangladeshi migrant workers at $1/hour instead of American "prevailing wage" workers at $50/hour. Indeed even cities like Paris and Berlin build new subway lines at 1/7th the cost of the New York project. A small part of this cost gap may be due to physical differences between the various cities, but by no means all of it…

This demonstrates one of the many internal contradictions of American progressivism. (And by the way, American conservatives have just as many internal contradictions.) You can have your strong public employee unions, "prevailing wages" and restrictive work rules, or you can have nice infrastructure. New Yorkers have (perhaps unknowingly) made their choice. Now they must live with the consequences. Few progressives (with the notable exception of Matt Yglesias) understand these internal contradictions.

Very well written.

 

[Joe T]

Matt Yglesias.

This is interesting too, but the entire time I'm reading it I'm wondering why he put it into a 14 point list.

 

[Amused to Death]

60 Minutes story on the infrastructure on now. Should be enlightening.

 

[joffer]

60 Minutes story on the infrastructure on now. Should be enlightening.

very frustrating

 

[jon_mx]

Let's just wait until the next financial crisis so we can just fund a bunch of shovel-ready projects whether they make sense or not.

 

[Amused to Death]

Let's just wait until the next financial crisis so we can just fund a bunch of shovel-ready projects whether they make sense or not.

The thing is, it takes years to become "shovel ready". And it costs millions just to get to "shovel ready" when you add up design, permits & Right of Way acquisition.

 

[Christo]

60 Minutes story on the infrastructure on now. Should be enlightening.

very frustrating

Yep

 

[Christo]

The Chamber of Commerce is on board. The AFL-CIO is on board. So what's the problem????????

We're looking at you Washington!

 

[jon_mx]

Let's just wait until the next financial crisis so we can just fund a bunch of shovel-ready projects whether they make sense or not.

The thing is, it takes years to become "shovel ready". And it costs millions just to get to "shovel ready" when you add up design, permits & Right of Way acquisition.

Fixing bridges does not require any of that. We should have a system where we rate projects by a variety of criteria (need, costs. benefit) and do the ones which makes the most sense. Of course setting up a committee which is void of political cronyism is probably an impossible task.

 

[Amused to Death]

Let's just wait until the next financial crisis so we can just fund a bunch of shovel-ready projects whether they make sense or not.

The thing is, it takes years to become "shovel ready". And it costs millions just to get to "shovel ready" when you add up design, permits & Right of Way acquisition.

Fixing bridges does not require any of that. We should have a system where we rate projects by a variety of criteria (need, costs. benefit) and do the ones which makes the most sense. Of course setting up a committee which is void of political cronyism is probably an impossible task.

Fixing is the cheapest, but it still costs money for analysis and design. But you can only fix them so much. Bridges that are over 100 years old eventually need to be replaced. Bridges weren't designed to last 100 years. They also become obsolete due to increasing traffic volumes.

And that's only considering bridges. The story didn't even mention drainage and utilities.

 

[Amused to Death]

Let's just wait until the next financial crisis so we can just fund a bunch of shovel-ready projects whether they make sense or not.

The thing is, it takes years to become "shovel ready". And it costs millions just to get to "shovel ready" when you add up design, permits & Right of Way acquisition.

Fixing bridges does not require any of that. We should have a system where we rate projects by a variety of criteria (need, costs. benefit) and do the ones which makes the most sense. Of course setting up a committee which is void of political cronyism is probably an impossible task.

It also depends on the level of repair required. If it requires closing a bridge you have to plan for it. There is a major bridge in NJ right now that's just undergoing repairs that has been in design for a few years now.

 

[Amused to Death]

So we've had this bridge replacement project in our office for about 8 years or so. Keeps getting put on hold...starts up again, shut down again, etc. It's been inactive now since about 2010. Our PM gets a call this afternoon from the client. They need an emergency detour and temp signal plans. Apparently the bridge has deteriorated to the point where the weight limit has been dropped to only 4 tons due to structural deficiencies and now they're afraid a good heavy snow and plows may cause a collapse. The bridge spans a rail line as well.

Guessing they'll find the funding pretty quick. Even at this point, the project's at least 6 months to a year before any construction gets started. That's assuming the permits and Right-of-Way can be acquired in that time.