Why PPR is a layman's game... (1 Viewer)

[Jason Wood]

As someone who went from TD-only leagues to TD-heavy leagues to what's now referred as "standard" leagues to PPR leagues, I can say I'm all for the evolution. It's a way of further differentiating the performance of players against one another. And I think doing things like tweaking the PPR by position to further balance it out can work, too. My longest running and most competitive leagues are also the ones that have the most complicated scoring systems. It challenges us all to refine our games and to also focus on different attributes of a player's total game that could help eek out a win on a bye week or if the injury bug hits.

 

[HenryMuto]

I am guessing the reason PPR was invented was for the high stakes leagues who saw that the teams who got picks 1,2 or 3 when there was the LT or Priest Holmes or E-Smith of the worlds out there who would score 2x as many pts as the #1 WR and about 1.5x as much as the 2nd or 3rd best RB they said how are we going to get people to play our high stakes contest (WCFF, NFFC, ect).

I mean is someone really going to throw down $2,000 when they draw the 12th pick when the guy picking 1st is already 200 pts ahead of you ? How are you possibly going to complete with that team ? Sure you could get lucky and he could mess up his draft/get unlucky but if all things were equal then you as the #12 or #11 or #10 or #9 ect would have almost no chance to win while the team picking #1 or #2 would have a huge edge over the rest of the league.

I am guessing people don't want to throw away $2,000 so they came up with PPR so the top WR's = the top RB's and the high stakes leagues were born because everyone feels they have a chance to win now.

Also if you don't like PPR then play in leagues without PPR and all will be right in your world.

My personal pref is playing with PPR when I play in high stakes leagues.

I have played this game for 20 years this will be year 21 and in the 3 leagues I run myself I have never used PPR but I don't use 1 pt per 10 yards.

I use a weighted system of yards. 1 pt at 50, 3 at 75, 5 at 100, ect so WR's and RB's have near equal value because those 30-40 yards you get as a RB receiving don't count for anything. Your only rewarded for your good/great games.

 

[Donnybrook]

I am not a fan of PRR but to each his own. I find it odd that in PRR leagues NYG's Steve Smith is more valued than Greg Jennings because he requires 40-50 more receptions to gain the same amount of yards. I rather play in a league were a players value is determined on yards they produced and includes their special teams play.

I actually find that just as arbitrary. I assume you figure a ST ace is worth more because he helps get field position and is important that way?Isn't Smith just as important to field position? If he gets 50 more receptions isn't it in part because he's relied upon more to move the chains and in perhaps in key situations? That Manning looks his way consistently? I think it's a huge assumption that he needs those catches because he's a lesser player (that's an assumption on my part but seems to be what you're saying) or less important. Maybe just used differently.

In fact one thing that holds Jennings back is the fact that he doesn't get looked at as much as people hoped when he first broke out.m So really, who is more valuable to his team? Is either?

Zealots is my favorite scoring system. In Zeolots, the #1 receiver turned out to be Deshawn Jackson obviously because the added points he received for his kick return yards and TDs. In a typical PPR, Deshaun Jackson would have recieved zero for any special teams play and finished 11th. Steve Smith finished 5th in PPR. Who is the better player? An explosive open field runner like Jackson or a consistant move the chains guy like Smith. I will take Jackson and I think so would most NFL teams. It sounds to me that you prefer to leave ST out the equation because PPR makes it much easier to predict points and rank players accordingly. It is artifical to me and I prefer non-PPR.

 

[massraider]

Zealots is my favorite scoring system.

You don't think RBs are too important in that system? RB flex, and no PPR. Everyone is trying to start 3 every week, rosters are massive, IDP aren't important, so every single scrub RB is rostered, and trading for one is difficult.I do Zealots, and I like it. But the RBs dominate that format.

 

[H.K.]

We mock what we don't understand.

- Austin Millbarge

 

[PranksterJD]

Zealots is my favorite scoring system.

You don't think RBs are too important in that system? RB flex, and no PPR. Everyone is trying to start 3 every week, rosters are massive, IDP aren't important, so every single scrub RB is rostered, and trading for one is difficult.I do Zealots, and I like it. But the RBs dominate that format.

I wouldn't argue with ditching the RB flex, but there's actually something comforting about the RB dominance.WRs hold value longer, so if they had the same value as the runners then establishing a "dynasty" by hoarding WRs would be easier. I also like the fact that although RBs can be game changers in that format, their shelf-life is so much shorter, so there's quicker turnover at the top of leagues. Similarly with draft picks. Bryant might be the best skill player in this draft, but Mathews is the guy that can jump-start a 3-10 team's rebuild.Of course, this is all centered around some of the benefits that non-PPR offers in dynasty leagues over many years. In redraft I really don't think either PPR vs. 3 starting WRs is dramatically better than the other.

 

[Donnybrook]

Zealots is my favorite scoring system.

You don't think RBs are too important in that system? RB flex, and no PPR. Everyone is trying to start 3 every week, rosters are massive, IDP aren't important, so every single scrub RB is rostered, and trading for one is difficult.I do Zealots, and I like it. But the RBs dominate that format.

It all part of the game. QB is also a dominate player in Zealots format but it is usually the team that has a good players at every position including IDPs that ends up winning in my leagues (unfortunately it's never my team).

 

[munchkin]

Zealots is my favorite scoring system.

You don't think RBs are too important in that system? RB flex, and no PPR. Everyone is trying to start 3 every week, rosters are massive, IDP aren't important, so every single scrub RB is rostered, and trading for one is difficult.I do Zealots, and I like it. But the RBs dominate that format.

Bingo!!!!

 

[munchkin]

Zealots is my favorite scoring system.

You don't think RBs are too important in that system? RB flex, and no PPR. Everyone is trying to start 3 every week, rosters are massive, IDP aren't important, so every single scrub RB is rostered, and trading for one is difficult.I do Zealots, and I like it. But the RBs dominate that format.

It all part of the game. QB is also a dominate player in Zealots format but it is usually the team that has a good players at every position including IDPs that ends up winning in my leagues (unfortunately it's never my team).

The importance of IDP players in Zealots is tangential.

 

[CB31]

I like PPR.A WR has to do things right to even get the catch. A RB doesn't really have that handicap. My guess is that a reception has a greater chance of resulting in a first down than does a carry. Moving the chains gives you a better chance of scoring. Scoring wins games.PPR evens the value for guys that catch more balls on shorter patterns compared to the deep homerun threat guys. There's a reason the possession guys are there. They serve a very valuable purpose in the NFL. So we try and carry over that importance in fantasy. Non-PPR scoring rewards a guy who made one 80 yard catch (thus affecting one drive in the game) the same as a guy who made 8 catches for 80 yards which more than likely moved the chains on multiple drives rather than just one drive.I can't say the argument is without flaws. But I think across the board, over the course of the whole season, guys who get high reception numbers are doing just as much to help their teams as are the high yardage guys.

To me, the point of PPR is not to balance WR and RB scoring (although that has something to do with it), but to reflect the value of a possession receiver compared to a Devery Henderson type. 8 for 80 is more valuable in real life than 1 for 80, and I think PPR is here to help reflect that in fantasy football.

 

[Holy Schneikes]

IMO too many folks are discussing this as if PPR is the ONLY way to accomplish position balancing. Way too many of the "change is good", "get out of the stone age" type comments that REALLY don't apply to many of us. I'm FOR change, and FOR evolution. But I'm for changing/evolving in a way that makes SENSE.

No scoring system is going to be perfect, that's true. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do our best to find the scoring system that makes the most "sense" while at the same time making for a fun, challenging game. In general I think the best way to do that is to reward the best players for what they do. TDs add value to the team. Yards add value to the team. More yards, more value, so we give points for them. But catches are a different animal. SOMETIMES they add value, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they add a LOT more value than other times. So why assign a pre-defined value to them? So far, we've done it because it's the easiest thing to do that also happens to "sort of" accomplish the goal of position balancing (obviously, it doesn't do it well, but it is admittedly a step in that general direction). But being the easiest isn't always the best.

Like I said before, if balancing is the primary goal, assigning different values to yards depending on position is a much more reasonable thing to do. As I said before, we already do that for QBs, and for the VERY SAME REASON. And in this day and age, it's not very difficult either.

 

[Holy Schneikes]

I like PPR.A WR has to do things right to even get the catch. A RB doesn't really have that handicap. My guess is that a reception has a greater chance of resulting in a first down than does a carry. Moving the chains gives you a better chance of scoring. Scoring wins games.PPR evens the value for guys that catch more balls on shorter patterns compared to the deep homerun threat guys. There's a reason the possession guys are there. They serve a very valuable purpose in the NFL. So we try and carry over that importance in fantasy. Non-PPR scoring rewards a guy who made one 80 yard catch (thus affecting one drive in the game) the same as a guy who made 8 catches for 80 yards which more than likely moved the chains on multiple drives rather than just one drive.I can't say the argument is without flaws. But I think across the board, over the course of the whole season, guys who get high reception numbers are doing just as much to help their teams as are the high yardage guys.

To me, the point of PPR is not to balance WR and RB scoring (although that has something to do with it), but to reflect the value of a possession receiver compared to a Devery Henderson type. 8 for 80 is more valuable in real life than 1 for 80, and I think PPR is here to help reflect that in fantasy football.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. Obviously, it depends a great deal on the particular game, but all in all I'd say they are fairly equal. There are a million factors to consider. An 80 yard play is almost guaranteed to get your team a score. 8 for 80 over the course of a game is not. The threat of the 1 for 80 may very well open up the lanes that ALLOW the 8 for 80. Granted the converse could be true as well, but the point is that BOTH are valuable to a team, and EITHER could be more or less valuable to a team in any given game (or season for that matter). You could argue all day that one might be slightly more valuable than the other, but to say one is worth TWICE what the other one is (whoich is what PPR does) REALLY misses the mark IMO.When you look at a receiver, you never ooh and aah over how low his YPC is, it's generally the other way around. Moving the chains IS very important, but so are big plays.

 

[comfortably numb]

I am not a fan of PRR but to each his own. I find it odd that in PRR leagues NYG's Steve Smith is more valued than Greg Jennings because he requires 40-50 more receptions to gain the same amount of yards. I rather play in a league were a players value is determined on yards they produced and includes their special teams play.

Smith is not more valued in any of my PPR leagues.He may have scored more, but not more valued.but I actually like this.No one in any league I have been in would actually ever deal Jennings for Smith, but yet Smith can outproduce him.

 

[Donnybrook]

I am not a fan of PRR but to each his own. I find it odd that in PRR leagues NYG's Steve Smith is more valued than Greg Jennings because he requires 40-50 more receptions to gain the same amount of yards. I rather play in a league were a players value is determined on yards they produced and includes their special teams play.

Smith is not more valued in any of my PPR leagues.He may have scored more, but not more valued.but I actually like this.No one in any league I have been in would actually ever deal Jennings for Smith, but yet Smith can outproduce him.

I was going on the basis of the FanEx draft where Smith went before Jennings.

 

[skiking08]

Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points.

PPR is one of many ways to assign points. Why is one more valid than another? The different ways to assign points just provide different lenses to look a the game through. If we assigned points for WR run blocking, we would better understand who the best blocking WRs are. Thats part of football isn't it? If we assigned points for linemen being double-teamed we would better understand who the best interior DL are. Thats part of the game isn't it? If we assigned points for proper reads by the QB and broken tackles by skill players, and blocks by TEs, we would have a clearer idea of who the best at those positions are. Those are all aspects of football right?I never really quite understood what you thought the "true spirit of fantasy football" is. I guess I believe that the spirit of fantasy sports is to help people understand more about these complex sports.

 

[CB31]

I like PPR.

A WR has to do things right to even get the catch. A RB doesn't really have that handicap. My guess is that a reception has a greater chance of resulting in a first down than does a carry. Moving the chains gives you a better chance of scoring. Scoring wins games.

PPR evens the value for guys that catch more balls on shorter patterns compared to the deep homerun threat guys. There's a reason the possession guys are there. They serve a very valuable purpose in the NFL. So we try and carry over that importance in fantasy.

Non-PPR scoring rewards a guy who made one 80 yard catch (thus affecting one drive in the game) the same as a guy who made 8 catches for 80 yards which more than likely moved the chains on multiple drives rather than just one drive.

I can't say the argument is without flaws. But I think across the board, over the course of the whole season, guys who get high reception numbers are doing just as much to help their teams as are the high yardage guys.

:( To me, the point of PPR is not to balance WR and RB scoring (although that has something to do with it), but to reflect the value of a possession receiver compared to a Devery Henderson type. 8 for 80 is more valuable in real life than 1 for 80, and I think PPR is here to help reflect that in fantasy football.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. Obviously, it depends a great deal on the particular game, but all in all I'd say they are fairly equal. There are a million factors to consider. An 80 yard play is almost guaranteed to get your team a score. 8 for 80 over the course of a game is not. The threat of the 1 for 80 may very well open up the lanes that ALLOW the 8 for 80. Granted the converse could be true as well, but the point is that BOTH are valuable to a team, and EITHER could be more or less valuable to a team in any given game (or season for that matter). You could argue all day that one might be slightly more valuable than the other, but to say one is worth TWICE what the other one is (whoich is what PPR does) REALLY misses the mark IMO.

When you look at a receiver, you never ooh and aah over how low his YPC is, it's generally the other way around. Moving the chains IS very important, but so are big plays.

Very valid point, especially the bolded part. You've convinced me. I still think most teams value consistency, but the fact that it's twice as much is too much. 1/2 PPRs are probably a good balance.

 

[DropKick]

I'll preface this by saying someone with a handle of "firstseason1988" might be just a little full of themselves.

Love PPR. RBs also get points for carries and QBs for completions. How big a part of the game plan is the player? 30 carries for 95 yards? Maybe the yardage isn't eye catching but those 30 carries may have helped his team control the clock and the game. Negative yardage play? That impacts their yardage which is (obviously) part of the scoring system too.

Our scoring system considers actual points, yardage, touches and even yards per touch. It's involved but it works. Many carries with a low yardage yields a tempered number of points. A handful of touches with a nice average... that works as well.

Overall, our scoring system works very well with teams being successful whether their led by a stud QB, RB or WR. That's the acid test...

 

[Andrew Garda]

It sounds to me that you prefer to leave ST out the equation because PPR makes it much easier to predict points and rank players accordingly. It is artifical to me and I prefer non-PPR.

That's a heckuva story you got going there man.I didn't say the bolded part at all. I said it's just as ARBITRARY to decide special teams is more important than a possession receiver as it is visa versa. And you actually just proved my point with your response, so thanks.

What I asked was, is either player really more valuable to a team? The Niners went hard after Ted Ginn b/c their return unit blew. Do you think they value him more than Crabtree? Probably not. More than likely they value them equally for their specific role. Same thing with DeSean Jackson and Maclin. Each is valuable in their role. Jackson adds to his ST role by being an outstanding receiver as well. More value. But is he inherently more valuable by virtue of returning kicks? Depends on your perspective and that of his team.

So I'm saying it's arbitrary - meaning it's all in how you choose to perceive it.

Also, I don't prefer PPR, much less 'because it makes things easier to rank'. I don't quite know HOW you got there from what I said, but you're assuming an awful lot about what I think, aren't you? And of all the conclusions, that's the one you make? I'm lazy?

I play in many different leagues, all scoring styles. I don't prefer one to the other. I enjoy them all. Ranking players has pretty much nothing to do with it because it's totally different in every league.

Just FYI, I also happen to like special teams points for a player if the scoring isn't screwy. I've seen ST players gain more points than a regular receiver in some formats so, it all depends.

You're arguing from the standpoint there is ONE way to play - yours. I prefer to see it as many ways to play.

To each their own. I wish you nothing but enjoyment in how you chose to play.

 

[cr8f]

Because its a lot more fun?

TD only leagues are still around aren't they?

 

[Jeff Tefertiller]

Guys, this thread has shown me one thing: fantasy football leagues are as diverse as the people that play in them. For this reason, it is a good thing that there are so many different variations of scoring, roster size, and scoring so that everyone can enjoy the hobby we all love. Just like an ice cream store, what makes the game of fantasy football so great is that it has more than one flavor. Just because someone likes chocolate, it does not mean it is better than vanilla, just preferred by the one person. Let's embrace the differences instead of picking at them.

 

[cr8f]

As someone who went from TD-only leagues to TD-heavy leagues to what's now referred as "standard" leagues to PPR leagues, I can say I'm all for the evolution. It's a way of further differentiating the performance of players against one another. And I think doing things like tweaking the PPR by position to further balance it out can work, too. My longest running and most competitive leagues are also the ones that have the most complicated scoring systems. It challenges us all to refine our games and to also focus on different attributes of a player's total game that could help eek out a win on a bye week or if the injury bug hits.

Exactly. Evolve is the right word.

 

[Hooper31]

Guys, this thread has shown me one thing: fantasy football leagues are as diverse as the people that play in them. For this reason, it is a good thing that there are so many different variations of scoring, roster size, and scoring so that everyone can enjoy the hobby we all love. Just like an ice cream store, what makes the game of fantasy football so great is that it has more than one flavor. Just because someone likes chocolate, it does not mean it is better than vanilla, just preferred by the one person. Let's embrace the differences instead of picking at them.

What are you doing? Logic and reason like this will only be met with ambivalence and a proper dose of ignore. In the iWorld, if you're not a copy of me, you're a complete fool.

 

[roadkill1292]

My league went to PPFDR three years ago and it has been an excellent compromise. We couldn't see the logic of awarding a point for a two yard loss and we're also in Ravens country, long the home of the three yard gain on third-and-five. So after reading Jeff P's analysis of the effect on scoring, we made the switch and have been pretty happy with it. RB salaries have decreased slightly while WR and TE salaries increased a little. There's still a gap but it's a much more balanced game we play these days.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues. Fantasy football, (and all fantasy sports, I guess baseball was first), was invented to draft players to make your team superior to others who drafted with you in your league. You need to quantify it somehow by assigning points. Call me old school, which I am, but assigning a point for a reception while assigning a point for 10 yards gained (as most leagues do) doesn't reflect that players' value to his team. For example, you can rush for 5 yards, but get outscored by a player who makes a reception for a 4 yard loss . The best caliber for a players' value is points scored then yardage gained. Why would you be in a league that values a statistic that is at best 3rd on the list of value to his team? People say they do it "to even out scoring of the positions", so you "don't have all running backs drafted in the 1st round". This doesn't hold too much merit for me, so what if running backs are drafted earlier, to me they hold more value than most receivers anyway. To me a running back benefits from a great offensive line (to me the most important positions on the offense) but you really can't quantify offensive lineman stats, you have to do it from position player's stats. so, in order of value you have:1. offensive line (can't quatify move on, all player positions are effected by the o-line)1. Quarterback (generally tiers are larger and not as separated statistically so drafted later by VBD)2. running backs3. wide receivers (sure there are exceptions and drafts will be indicative as such)4. tight endsWhy do people feel the need to even the positions when in reality these are the order of value in the NFL? Ok, I hear ya, this isn't reality, but fantasy. Yeah yeah yeah, the point of fantasy is to try to mirror reality as much as possible, at least the old school way. Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant? I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

I agree with your conclusion, but I arrive at it in a different way. Like everything if you try and even it out you ruin the fun factor of fantasy football. I have seen leagues with every position having so many different scoring rules that it just simply isn't fun. I like having all positions score the same way with a modification on yards for QB's. I like all TD's to be worth 6 points. I don't get using PPR as it is so artificial and actually gives RB's MORE credit for doing nothing but "catching a long hand off." I would understand more if WR's were given 1/2 a point and TE's 1 point but why give RB's anything? Personally, I hope the tracking of 1st downs could get done easier as that is a catch with more value, but a catch for no gain can't be worth as much as a 10 yard run, that is just absurd.I have played in PPR and I don't like it.ETA: I really disliked IDP after thinking I would like it. the scoring is impossible to get anything remotely that values what happens on the field and tackles aren't even an official stat so you see huge variances and discrepancies, specifically with assists. It really was not good.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I like PPR.A WR has to do things right to even get the catch. A RB doesn't really have that handicap. My guess is that a reception has a greater chance of resulting in a first down than does a carry. Moving the chains gives you a better chance of scoring. Scoring wins games.PPR evens the value for guys that catch more balls on shorter patterns compared to the deep homerun threat guys. There's a reason the possession guys are there. They serve a very valuable purpose in the NFL. So we try and carry over that importance in fantasy. Non-PPR scoring rewards a guy who made one 80 yard catch (thus affecting one drive in the game) the same as a guy who made 8 catches for 80 yards which more than likely moved the chains on multiple drives rather than just one drive.I can't say the argument is without flaws. But I think across the board, over the course of the whole season, guys who get high reception numbers are doing just as much to help their teams as are the high yardage guys.

To me, the point of PPR is not to balance WR and RB scoring (although that has something to do with it), but to reflect the value of a possession receiver compared to a Devery Henderson type. 8 for 80 is more valuable in real life than 1 for 80, and I think PPR is here to help reflect that in fantasy football.

Wow, I could not disagree more. First 1 for 80 is guaranteed points in real football and may be more valuable than 8-80. Why? What if a guy catches 2 balls for 20 yards and the team didn't get a first down; where is the value? More importantly and this is my main issue, you were comparing 8-80 and 1-80, but what did the team do with the other 7 plays and why is 8-80 worth TWICE as much as 1-80 in PPR??? That is illogic I can't follow? This is also why I say tracking 1st down catches would be valuable.

 

[munchkin]

Completing a forward pass (or pass in general) is not an easy thing. When we consider a receiver successful if he has a catch rate in the 60% range and a QB a stud if he displays similar success then we can see the value in assigning points for catches. Certainly all catches aren't valued the same. A receiver (Rb or WR) who comes back for a ball and bails out a QB who is about to get sacked has helped his team by negating a potentially negative play. Short passes and screen passes are all part of offensive repertoires. A player like Wes Welker who has a similar YPC to Fitzy but doesn't get the TD's is still very important to the team. His consistency helps Brady and the team move the ball down the field and the short passes are used to set up the potential longer play down the field. the DB's have to honor the whole field not just beyond the LOS. Some times those dump off passes result in a longer play.

An RB is not going to get many touches (unless they are strictly a short yardage back) and a receiver is not going to get many targets if they don't produce positive yardage.

The Leagues that are most interesting to me are those that capture player value closest to that of the games played on an NFL field. I am all for experimenting to find the best way to do that. It makes the competition more interesting and the drafting more challenging (whether it be Dynasty or Redraft).

 

[Zoomanji]

I am guessing the reason PPR was invented was for the high stakes leagues who saw that the teams who got picks 1,2 or 3 when there was the LT or Priest Holmes or E-Smith of the worlds out there who would score 2x as many pts as the #1 WR and about 1.5x as much as the 2nd or 3rd best RB they said how are we going to get people to play our high stakes contest (WCFF, NFFC, ect).I mean is someone really going to throw down $2,000 when they draw the 12th pick when the guy picking 1st is already 200 pts ahead of you ? How are you possibly going to complete with that team ? Sure you could get lucky and he could mess up his draft/get unlucky but if all things were equal then you as the #12 or #11 or #10 or #9 ect would have almost no chance to win while the team picking #1 or #2 would have a huge edge over the rest of the league.I am guessing people don't want to throw away $2,000 so they came up with PPR so the top WR's = the top RB's and the high stakes leagues were born because everyone feels they have a chance to win now.Also if you don't like PPR then play in leagues without PPR and all will be right in your world.My personal pref is playing with PPR when I play in high stakes leagues.I have played this game for 20 years this will be year 21 and in the 3 leagues I run myself I have never used PPR but I don't use 1 pt per 10 yards.I use a weighted system of yards. 1 pt at 50, 3 at 75, 5 at 100, ect so WR's and RB's have near equal value because those 30-40 yards you get as a RB receiving don't count for anything. Your only rewarded for your good/great games.

PPR was around before the high stakes leagues but your reasoning for why they use it is probably right on. That and PPR is better

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues. ... Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant? I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

I don't participate in PPR leagues for a very simple reason.A players gets 1 pt just for catching the ball. - catching a ball somehow equates to rushing for 10 yards- catching a ball somehow equates to gaining 10 yards from a reception- catching a ball somehow equates to throwing for 25/50 (or whatever total for a QB/passer) yrdsNo RB gets 1 pt for taking a handoff.No QB gets 1 pt for attemting a pass.Why?Because the mere act of taking a handoff or attempting a pass doesn't equate to making a productive play.Making a productive play is easily defined as producing yardage or scoring points.If a player produces yardage or scores then they should be rewarded for that production. Merely catching a pass has no value without production.Merely taking a handoff has no value without production.Merely attempting a pass has no value without production.I think the hidden crux of the argument that the OP wants to express is frustration over PPR leagues for one over-arching reason and that is because PPR has become the norm and it feels like PPR is being shoved down people's throats who dislike the lack of logic in awarding a point just for catching a ball reguardless of production from the reception.I don't agree in attacking people who participate in PPR leagues because attacking people is not an effective argument.There is no logical reason to award 1 pt merely because a player catches a ball. If a player produces then award them and do not give points that have no logical basis.The counter argument is PPR offsets stud RB theory. Well stud RB theory has changed dramatically over the last decade because the game has switched to a RBBC and more pass dominant game so I think the original argument has changed and besides I think their are other ways to off-set the stud RB/QB argument if you accept that argument on the surface and I don't because I don't know if the thrust of FF is or should be to make every position even. Think back to the first time you joined a FF league. What was your motivation? It was probably because you enjoyed the NFL and felt that you knew how to value players worth and logically you expected a reasonable representation of the NFL in how FF leagues valued point production.Merely catching a ball has no logical relationship to what happens on an NFL field and I dismiss the argument that people have to be protected from stud RBs especially since RBBC and dominant passing games have become the norm. Also their are other ways to offset skewed valuation that better reflect the NFL which is probably the reason why people joined FF leagues in the first place.But to each their own. Plenty of leagues to join but if you have a problem with PPR as I do then don't participate in them and make damn sure your commish doesn't cram it down your throat if you don't want to participate in PPR.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues. ... Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant? I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

I don't participate in PPR leagues for a very simple reason.A players gets 1 pt just for catching the ball. - catching a ball somehow equates to rushing for 10 yards- catching a ball somehow equates to gaining 10 yards from a reception- catching a ball somehow equates to throwing for 25/50 (or whatever total for a QB/passer) yrdsNo RB gets 1 pt for taking a handoff.No QB gets 1 pt for attemting a pass.Why?Because the mere act of taking a handoff or attempting a pass doesn't equate to making a productive play.Making a productive play is easily defined as producing yardage or scoring points.If a player produces yardage or scores then they should be rewarded for that production. Merely catching a pass has no value without production.Merely taking a handoff has no value without production.Merely attempting a pass has no value without production.I think the hidden crux of the argument that the OP wants to express is frustration over PPR leagues for one over-arching reason and that is because PPR has become the norm and it feels like PPR is being shoved down people's throats who dislike the lack of logic in awarding a point just for catching a ball reguardless of production from the reception.I don't agree in attacking people who participate in PPR leagues because attacking people is not an effective argument.There is no logical reason to award 1 pt merely because a player catches a ball. If a player produces then award them and do not give points that have no logical basis.The counter argument is PPR offsets stud RB theory. Well stud RB theory has changed dramatically over the last decade because the game has switched to a RBBC and more pass dominant game so I think the original argument has changed and besides I think their are other ways to off-set the stud RB/QB argument if you accept that argument on the surface and I don't because I don't know if the thrust of FF is or should be to make every position even. Think back to the first time you joined a FF league. What was your motivation? It was probably because you enjoyed the NFL and felt that you knew how to value players worth and logically you expected a reasonable representation of the NFL in how FF leagues valued point production.Merely catching a ball has no logical relationship to what happens on an NFL field and I dismiss the argument that people have to be protected from stud RBs especially since RBBC and dominant passing games have become the norm. Also their are other ways to offset skewed valuation that better reflect the NFL which is probably the reason why people joined FF leagues in the first place.But to each their own. Plenty of leagues to join but if you have a problem with PPR as I do then don't participate in them and make damn sure your commish doesn't cram it down your throat if you don't want to participate in PPR.

 

[Andrew Garda]

Guys, this thread has shown me one thing: fantasy football leagues are as diverse as the people that play in them. For this reason, it is a good thing that there are so many different variations of scoring, roster size, and scoring so that everyone can enjoy the hobby we all love. Just like an ice cream store, what makes the game of fantasy football so great is that it has more than one flavor. Just because someone likes chocolate, it does not mean it is better than vanilla, just preferred by the one person. Let's embrace the differences instead of picking at them.

 

[shader]

I HATED PPR, and you can probably find a few posts representing that fact about 2-3 years ago. I always used the argument that "a reception in and of itself is meaningless". In fact I started a dynasty league last summer with a group of fbguys posters, and we had a pretty big debate about PPR/Non-PPR. I was firmly against it, but caved into popular sentiment.

Then I tried it.

It's ten times better, it's much more even, and it's a ton of fun.

I recommend it to all and won't start another league without it.

 

[H.K.]

Merely catching a ball has no logical relationship to what happens on an NFL field

Jackie Smith.

 

[the next level]

Guys, this thread has shown me one thing: fantasy football leagues are as diverse as the people that play in them. For this reason, it is a good thing that there are so many different variations of scoring, roster size, and scoring so that everyone can enjoy the hobby we all love. Just like an ice cream store, what makes the game of fantasy football so great is that it has more than one flavor. Just because someone likes chocolate, it does not mean it is better than vanilla, just preferred by the one person. Let's embrace the differences instead of picking at them.

You are exactly right. But one problem with this reality is that no gold standard scoring system has emerged for which we can decree a fantasy champion of national stature (such as in the World Series of Poker). Several Vegas-centric attempts have been made - such as the WCOFF - but they've got several rivals and all of them differ in scoring approaches. The WCOFF does use PPR. But standard leagues at NFL.com do not. To each his own for sure, but there is a downside to all this diversity. And for what it's worth, I hate the idea of awarding a point for a no-gain reception. No PPR for me.

 

[39407]

Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

Why do you care? I've tried multiple formats, including the outdated one you pimp, and I enjoy PPR/IDP the most. Maybe try it and then form an opinion? Or are we dealing with a woman here?

 

[Jeremy]

For those of you that play PPR, what is your scoring and lineup requirements for QBs. It would seem if you are going to heap more value onto WRs, TEs and pass catching RBs, you'd have to do something to make sure the most important position on the field remains important in fantasy. 6pt TDs? 2 QB leagues? How does it go?

 

[kremenull]

LOL! I didn't want to give up my Sony Walkman when MP3's came out, or my music cassettes and 8-tracks when CDs came out, either.......It's called evolution. The NFL is a passing league, get on board soon my friend, it's not to late to learn how to implement REAL fantasy strategy.Every year it's just like this for you, right, in a non-ppr draft.....Rd 1 - RB........Rd 2 - RB.........Rd 3 - Considering a good Wide Re, awwwww shucks, let me get that Tier 3 RB like always in the 3rd Rd, I'll take Donald Brown........

Asinine and condescending oversimplification.

Yep! As is the topic. You all do you (non-PPR) and we'll all do us (PPR). As long as you're enjoying what you do, then keep doing what you do......- Another asinine oversimplification icon injected here -

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues. ... Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant? I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

I don't participate in PPR leagues for a very simple reason.A players gets 1 pt just for catching the ball. - catching a ball somehow equates to rushing for 10 yards- catching a ball somehow equates to gaining 10 yards from a reception- catching a ball somehow equates to throwing for 25/50 (or whatever total for a QB/passer) yrdsNo RB gets 1 pt for taking a handoff.No QB gets 1 pt for attemting a pass.Why?Because the mere act of taking a handoff or attempting a pass doesn't equate to making a productive play.Making a productive play is easily defined as producing yardage or scoring points.If a player produces yardage or scores then they should be rewarded for that production. Merely catching a pass has no value without production.Merely taking a handoff has no value without production.Merely attempting a pass has no value without production.I think the hidden crux of the argument that the OP wants to express is frustration over PPR leagues for one over-arching reason and that is because PPR has become the norm and it feels like PPR is being shoved down people's throats who dislike the lack of logic in awarding a point just for catching a ball reguardless of production from the reception.I don't agree in attacking people who participate in PPR leagues because attacking people is not an effective argument.There is no logical reason to award 1 pt merely because a player catches a ball. If a player produces then award them and do not give points that have no logical basis.The counter argument is PPR offsets stud RB theory. Well stud RB theory has changed dramatically over the last decade because the game has switched to a RBBC and more pass dominant game so I think the original argument has changed and besides I think their are other ways to off-set the stud RB/QB argument if you accept that argument on the surface and I don't because I don't know if the thrust of FF is or should be to make every position even. Think back to the first time you joined a FF league. What was your motivation? It was probably because you enjoyed the NFL and felt that you knew how to value players worth and logically you expected a reasonable representation of the NFL in how FF leagues valued point production.Merely catching a ball has no logical relationship to what happens on an NFL field and I dismiss the argument that people have to be protected from stud RBs especially since RBBC and dominant passing games have become the norm. Also their are other ways to offset skewed valuation that better reflect the NFL which is probably the reason why people joined FF leagues in the first place.But to each their own. Plenty of leagues to join but if you have a problem with PPR as I do then don't participate in them and make damn sure your commish doesn't cram it down your throat if you don't want to participate in PPR.

By logic, you should be in a TD-only league. And, passing TDs shouldn't count for anything. Merely throwing a ball is useless, unless someone catches it for a TD. Similarly, a 10 yard run on 3rd and 13 doesn't do anything, so those should be thrown out. You could say that it helps field position, but that's nit-picky. A catch for 0 yards could have similar, minimal impact on a game. It could change where the ball is spotted on the field, yielding different options on the next play. It could run more clock. It could save the QB from a sack/hit.The bottom line is that there is more to FF scoring than rewarding plays for their direct outcome on a game. If it were all about that it would be impossible to score, as it is all subjective. There's no way to tell how much any one play or player impacted an entire game. So, you sacrifice some of that to make it more fun/fair to play. That's what FF is all about, right?

 

[massraider]

For those of you that play PPR, what is your scoring and lineup requirements for QBs. It would seem if you are going to heap more value onto WRs, TEs and pass catching RBs, you'd have to do something to make sure the most important position on the field remains important in fantasy. 6pt TDs? 2 QB leagues? How does it go?

Even if you only do 4pt TD, it remains the highest scoring position, unless the scoring is really different.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I don't get the lure of PPR leagues. I am increasingly aware of the fact that it has become more the standard of leagues. ... Why skew the value of a player to a statistic not as significant? I have no respect for PPR leagues and will never participate in one, (unless it is free with prizes). It's a layman's game and shows lack of the true spirit of fantasy football. Hopefully this thread will help you see the light.

I don't participate in PPR leagues for a very simple reason.A players gets 1 pt just for catching the ball. - catching a ball somehow equates to rushing for 10 yards- catching a ball somehow equates to gaining 10 yards from a reception- catching a ball somehow equates to throwing for 25/50 (or whatever total for a QB/passer) yrdsNo RB gets 1 pt for taking a handoff.No QB gets 1 pt for attemting a pass.Why?Because the mere act of taking a handoff or attempting a pass doesn't equate to making a productive play.Making a productive play is easily defined as producing yardage or scoring points.If a player produces yardage or scores then they should be rewarded for that production. Merely catching a pass has no value without production.Merely taking a handoff has no value without production.Merely attempting a pass has no value without production.I think the hidden crux of the argument that the OP wants to express is frustration over PPR leagues for one over-arching reason and that is because PPR has become the norm and it feels like PPR is being shoved down people's throats who dislike the lack of logic in awarding a point just for catching a ball reguardless of production from the reception.I don't agree in attacking people who participate in PPR leagues because attacking people is not an effective argument.There is no logical reason to award 1 pt merely because a player catches a ball. If a player produces then award them and do not give points that have no logical basis.The counter argument is PPR offsets stud RB theory. Well stud RB theory has changed dramatically over the last decade because the game has switched to a RBBC and more pass dominant game so I think the original argument has changed and besides I think their are other ways to off-set the stud RB/QB argument if you accept that argument on the surface and I don't because I don't know if the thrust of FF is or should be to make every position even. Think back to the first time you joined a FF league. What was your motivation? It was probably because you enjoyed the NFL and felt that you knew how to value players worth and logically you expected a reasonable representation of the NFL in how FF leagues valued point production.Merely catching a ball has no logical relationship to what happens on an NFL field and I dismiss the argument that people have to be protected from stud RBs especially since RBBC and dominant passing games have become the norm. Also their are other ways to offset skewed valuation that better reflect the NFL which is probably the reason why people joined FF leagues in the first place.But to each their own. Plenty of leagues to join but if you have a problem with PPR as I do then don't participate in them and make damn sure your commish doesn't cram it down your throat if you don't want to participate in PPR.

By logic, you should be in a TD-only league. And, passing TDs shouldn't count for anything. Merely throwing a ball is useless, unless someone catches it for a TD. Similarly, a 10 yard run on 3rd and 13 doesn't do anything, so those should be thrown out. You could say that it helps field position, but that's nit-picky. A catch for 0 yards could have similar, minimal impact on a game. It could change where the ball is spotted on the field, yielding different options on the next play. It could run more clock. It could save the QB from a sack/hit.The bottom line is that there is more to FF scoring than rewarding plays for their direct outcome on a game. If it were all about that it would be impossible to score, as it is all subjective. There's no way to tell how much any one play or player impacted an entire game. So, you sacrifice some of that to make it more fun/fair to play. That's what FF is all about, right?

No, your logic is not correct here. What he is saying is that you are rewarding for something that is already rewarded for. the Yards are what you want, the catch may be what gets you there or maybe not. I mean the shuffle pass is basically a hand off and if it gets stuffed for no gain you want to give it the same as a hand off for 10 yards??? I believe the guy is saying reward for production, a hand off or a pass is not production, yardage and a TD is. If a first down could be added to the scoring I think that would be good and it would probably help the TE's as well.I do agree that there is always a trade off between realism and fun factor. the idea of starting 2 RB's and 3 WR's and 1 TE and 1 QB is because it is like a real lineup. Scoring Td's as 6 points and FG's as 3 points is good because that is what we know it as. Trying to make everything equal just takes away form the fun if you ask me...keep the scoring for positions as alike as possible

 

[cstu]

I'll preface this by saying someone with a handle of "firstseason1988" might be just a little full of themselves.

Wow, 1988? He must've, like, invented fantasy football or something...

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

No, your logic is not correct here. What he is saying is that you are rewarding for something that is already rewarded for. the Yards are what you want, the catch may be what gets you there or maybe not. I mean the shuffle pass is basically a hand off and if it gets stuffed for no gain you want to give it the same as a hand off for 10 yards??? I believe the guy is saying reward for production, a hand off or a pass is not production, yardage and a TD is. If a first down could be added to the scoring I think that would be good and it would probably help the TE's as well.

Fair enough, but why is a 10 yard run automatically considered production? There are plenty of cases where it could be considered a meaningless play. My point is that if you are arguing for only productive plays to be rewarded and the only true ones are scores. I see what you guys are thinking with the duplication of reward, but that argument doesn't hold much water either. Should the yardage gained on scoring plays be removed from scoring. That's the same as getting a PPR point and points for receiving yards.

 

[Zoomanji]

No, your logic is not correct here. What he is saying is that you are rewarding for something that is already rewarded for. the Yards are what you want, the catch may be what gets you there or maybe not. I mean the shuffle pass is basically a hand off and if it gets stuffed for no gain you want to give it the same as a hand off for 10 yards??? I believe the guy is saying reward for production, a hand off or a pass is not production, yardage and a TD is. If a first down could be added to the scoring I think that would be good and it would probably help the TE's as well.

Fair enough, but why is a 10 yard run automatically considered production? There are plenty of cases where it could be considered a meaningless play. My point is that if you are arguing for only productive plays to be rewarded and the only true ones are scores. I see what you guys are thinking with the duplication of reward, but that argument doesn't hold much water either. Should the yardage gained on scoring plays be removed from scoring. That's the same as getting a PPR point and points for receiving yards.

3rd and 25 draw play for 10 yard gain? garbage yards, shouldn't count.

Now the punter booming a 55 yard kick and pinning the other team inside the 5. $$$

And can I be the first?

 

[H.K.]

I believe the guy is saying reward for production, a hand off or a pass is not production, yardage and a TD is.

I wonder how many people making this argument play in team defense leagues that reward 1 point for a sack of one yard and don't reward any points to the defense for tackling a RB for a five yard loss? The net result is better for the defense based on field position vs the rushing play, yet no point for them in that situation despite better production in yards compared to the sack.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

No, your logic is not correct here. What he is saying is that you are rewarding for something that is already rewarded for. the Yards are what you want, the catch may be what gets you there or maybe not. I mean the shuffle pass is basically a hand off and if it gets stuffed for no gain you want to give it the same as a hand off for 10 yards??? I believe the guy is saying reward for production, a hand off or a pass is not production, yardage and a TD is. If a first down could be added to the scoring I think that would be good and it would probably help the TE's as well.

Fair enough, but why is a 10 yard run automatically considered production? There are plenty of cases where it could be considered a meaningless play. My point is that if you are arguing for only productive plays to be rewarded and the only true ones are scores. I see what you guys are thinking with the duplication of reward, but that argument doesn't hold much water either. Should the yardage gained on scoring plays be removed from scoring. That's the same as getting a PPR point and points for receiving yards.

3rd and 25 draw play for 10 yard gain? garbage yards, shouldn't count.

Now the punter booming a 55 yard kick and pinning the other team inside the 5. $$$

And can I be the first?

:X

 

[Tau837]

How about this system?

- Passing yards worth half as much as rushing yards because the value is split between passer and receiver. So both passing yards and receiving yards are worth 1 point for every 20 yards. And negative yards count as negative points for both passer and receiver (i.e., so a pass for a loss is negative points for both passer and receiver).

- Rushing yards are worth 1 point for every 10 yards.

- First downs achieved by passing are worth 1/2 point to both the passer and receiver.

- Rushing first downs are worth 1 point.

- All TDs are worth 6 points.

- All turnovers (fumbles, interceptions) are -4 points. (There is a historical basis for these numbers from the Hidden Game of Football.)

- Starting lineup: 1 QB, 1 RB (halfback), 2 WR, 2 Flex, where Flex can be WR, TE, or FB (not halfbacks). This allows representing real offensive sets: 1 RB, 1 FB, 2 WRs, and 1 TE; 1 RB, 3 WRs, and 1 TE; 1 RB and 4 WRs; 1 RB, 2 WRs, 2 TEs. I realize fullback probably wouldn't often be used, but it would be an option.

IMO there is a logic to these point values and starting lineups. It does reemphasize RB values, but most fantasy teams would start 3 or 4 WRs, and no potential second starting RB would swing plenty of value to the WR position.

The biggest problem is likely the lack of ability to award points for first downs in most online scoring systems.

I've never played in a league like this, but I think I would like it. Aside from the increased logic/realism (IMO) and the balance I think would be created due to the lineup requirements, it would also be less likely that a team's season would be sunk by a RB injury.

Thoughts?

 

[Jeremy]

For those of you that play PPR, what is your scoring and lineup requirements for QBs. It would seem if you are going to heap more value onto WRs, TEs and pass catching RBs, you'd have to do something to make sure the most important position on the field remains important in fantasy. 6pt TDs? 2 QB leagues? How does it go?

Even if you only do 4pt TD, it remains the highest scoring position, unless the scoring is really different.

Even in non PPR leagues, QBs are usually drafted after the first couple rounds with a couple exceptions. And you only start 1 (usually), so that further reduces the urgancy to draft one early. How do you keep the draft in a PPR league from being RB and WR dominant?