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Why Santonio Holmes over Sinorice Moss? (1 Viewer)

cstu

Footballguy
Let's leave Chad Jackson out of the picture for this discussion and focus two similar WR's who were slated as the #1 and #3 WR's prior to, and perhaps after, the combine.

What we know about the players:

Santonio Holmes (5-10 1/2, 188 (179 Pro Day), Estimated 4.49 (4.36 and 4.34 Pro Day) - hasn't participated in any pre-draft events other than his height and weight at the combine. Not known for speed, but is still quite fast with good hands and route running ability.

Sinorice Moss (5-8, 185, 4.38) - has participated in the Skill Challenge, Senior Bowl, where he won MVP honors, and the combine, running the 4th best 40 of the WR's. His pass catching skills were displayed as being excellent at all the pre-draft events he has participated in. Runs good routes, good return man, has leadership skills and is brother to a successful NFL WR. Negative is his height and size which bring up the durability question.

What I want to know is given everything we know about both players, why would Santonio Holmes rank higher than Sinorice Moss?

 
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br0nc080

Footballguy
santonio produced at the college level on the big stage. he's a gamer. not saying sinorice isnt, but i really havent heard much about him except for in the post season games and events

 

cstu

Footballguy
From KFFL:

NCAA | S. Holmes' kids a reason he left earlyFri, 24 Feb 2006 14:30:31 -0800During his NFL Combine interview, Ohio State WR Santonio Holmes said one reason he left early is to help support his three children. Holmes said, "Knowing I have three kids to take care of, I want them to have a dad, something I didn't have. I want to be there to support them. My mom was always a single parent raising four kids. I really want to support my mom."
 

Frenchy Fuqua

Footballguy
Where to start...

Give or take a few hundredths of a second Holmes is likely as fast as Moss. As you state he's also a few inches taller. As a collegiate WR Santonio Holmes outproduced Sinorice Moss in every way imaginable. Holmes was rock steady for the Buckeyes while Moss frequently disappeared for the Canes. Each players stats over the past 3 seasons:

Receptions: Holmes- 140, Moss- 65

Yards: Holmes- 2295, Moss- 1076

TD Recps: Holmes- 25, Moss- 9

Punt Returns: Holmes- 38, Moss- 1

PR Yards: Holmes- 384, Moss- 19

Kick Returns: Holmes- 16, Moss- 6

KR Yards: Holmes 374 (23.4 AVG), Moss 112 (18.7 AVG)

I think alot of people assume Moss will be a great returner in the NFL. That may be the case but with Roscoe Parrish and Devin Hester there he wasn't given many opportunities to return kicks or punts at The U.

 
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Chaos Commish

Footballguy
Where to start...

Give or take a few hundredths of a second Holmes is likely as fast as Moss. As you state he's also a few inches taller. As a collegiate WR Santonio Holmes outproduced Sinorice Moss in every way imaginable. Holmes was rock steady for the Buckeyes while Moss frequently disappeared for the Canes. Each players stats over the past 3 seasons:

Receptions: Holmes- 140, Moss- 65

Yards: Holmes- 2295, Moss- 1076

TD Recps: Holmes- 25, Moss- 9

Punt Returns: Holmes- 38, Moss- 1

PR Yards: Holmes- 384, Moss- 19

Kick Returns: Holmes- 16, Moss- 6

KR Yards: Holmes 374 (23.4 AVG), Moss 112 (18.7 AVG)

I think alot of people assume Moss will be a great returner in the NFL. That may be the case but with Roscoe Parrish and Devin Hester there he wasn't given many opportunities to return kicks or punts at The U.
Well done. Moss will probably be the 3rd WR off the board, but this is a weak class.
 

heyshady

Footballguy
I've seen a lot of Buckeye games and I'm here to tell you Holmes will play well at the NFL level. He put up good numbers in years the Buckeyes really didn't throw the rock a whole bunch. Where Holmes excels is route running. You will not see a more polished route running WR come into the NFL. Most importantly however, he can run ALL the routes well. Fades, posts, slants, hooks, fly, outs etc... He is very difficult to match up against because of these two items. His route running also creates good separation and offsets his less than top end speed.

Whether he ever develops into a top flight great #1 WR is probably doubtful. But what a team will get is 1) a guy who won't be a "bust" (i.e. there is no downside risk with Holmes) 2) will work hard and 3) a very productive WR who will be a decent #1 and a lights out #2.

The greatest WRs to ever play the game were not burners. They were route runners that could run ALL the routes and could catch.

I see Holmes as very similar to Laverneous Coles, Santana Moss, Isaac Bruce, Keenan McCardell. Depending on his surrounding team he will have some great years, will have some bad years but most of the time he will be very solid.

 

Bri

Footballguy
I don't believe in the tiny WR. Yes that means I wouldn't have had Santana or Steve Smith but so be it. I think Jackson is secretly(or not so secretly) on top of many teams lists

 

Bri

Footballguy
I see Holmes as very similar to Laverneous Coles, Santana Moss, Isaac Bruce, Keenan McCardell. Depending on his surrounding team he will have some great years, will have some bad years but most of the time he will be very solid.
I don't see the correlation there. Those guys have done well on lesser teams. IIRC Bruce holds the record for most 200+ yard games by a WR when the Rams stunk. Keenan was on an expansion team. .....I don't see it
 

Family Matters

Footballguy
I don't think you can say size or speed defines a players ability either way. What you have to go by most is a players film of games against good competition. Bothe of these guys are good and 1 team may like Moss better and others may like Holmes better depending on their needs and what they want to spend to get that player. But on balance, Holmes is better. The one measurable that you can't really measure is game speed. And Holmes is a great player during the games against all levels of competition. He's fast and consistent and he's going to continue to improve.

 

cstu

Footballguy
I've seen a lot of Buckeye games and I'm here to tell you Holmes will play well at the NFL level. He put up good numbers in years the Buckeyes really didn't throw the rock a whole bunch. Where Holmes excels is route running. You will not see a more polished route running WR come into the NFL. Most importantly however, he can run ALL the routes well. Fades, posts, slants, hooks, fly, outs etc... He is very difficult to match up against because of these two items. His route running also creates good separation and offsets his less than top end speed.

Whether he ever develops into a top flight great #1 WR is probably doubtful. But what a team will get is 1) a guy who won't be a "bust" (i.e. there is no downside risk with Holmes) 2) will work hard and 3) a very productive WR who will be a decent #1 and a lights out #2.

The greatest WRs to ever play the game were not burners. They were route runners that could run ALL the routes and could catch.

I see Holmes as very similar to Laverneous Coles, Santana Moss, Isaac Bruce, Keenan McCardell. Depending on his surrounding team he will have some great years, will have some bad years but most of the time he will be very solid.
He's seems very Deion Branch-ish to me. That's still a very good player to be compared to, but a team using a 1st round pick on a WR probably wants a true #1. If he gets on a team where he can match up on the #2 CB then I can see him doing a lot of damage.
 

heyshady

Footballguy
I've seen a lot of Buckeye games and I'm here to tell you Holmes will play well at the NFL level.  He put up good numbers in years the Buckeyes really didn't throw the rock a whole bunch.  Where Holmes excels is route running.  You will not see a more polished route running WR come into the NFL.  Most importantly however, he can run ALL the routes well.  Fades, posts, slants, hooks, fly, outs etc...  He is very difficult to match up against because of these two items.  His route running also creates good separation and offsets his less than top end speed.

Whether he ever develops into a top flight great #1 WR is probably doubtful.  But what a team will get is 1) a guy who won't be a "bust" (i.e. there is no downside risk with Holmes) 2) will work hard and 3) a very productive WR who will be a decent #1 and a lights out #2.

The greatest WRs to ever play the game were not burners.  They were route runners that could run ALL the routes and could catch.

I see Holmes as very similar to Laverneous Coles, Santana Moss, Isaac Bruce, Keenan McCardell.  Depending on his surrounding team he will have some great years, will have some bad years but most of the time he will be very solid.
He's seems very Deion Branch-ish to me. That's still a very good player to be compared to, but a team using a 1st round pick on a WR probably wants a true #1. If he gets on a team where he can match up on the #2 CB then I can see him doing a lot of damage.
1. He is the best WR in the draft. Yes it is a down year but if you need a WR what other choice do you have?2. I understand all teams want a #1 WR in the 1st round but let's be realistic. There are dozens and dozens of WRs taken in the 1st round that everybody knows have very little chance of being a dominant or true #1 WR in the NFL.

Rashaun Woods

Lee Evans

Michael Jenkins

Michael Clayton

Reggie Williams

Bryant Johnson

Mark Clayton

Roddy White

Troy Williamson

Ashley Lelie

I'd match Santonio up against any of those guys listed above that were taken in the first round. That being said... he is no Andre Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald.

 

heyshady

Footballguy
I see Holmes as very similar to Laverneous Coles, Santana Moss, Isaac Bruce, Keenan McCardell.  Depending on his surrounding team he will have some great years, will have some bad years but most of the time he will be very solid.
I don't see the correlation there. Those guys have done well on lesser teams. IIRC Bruce holds the record for most 200+ yard games by a WR when the Rams stunk. Keenan was on an expansion team. .....I don't see it
I didn't say the team had to be bad?!? And I guess I need to clarify "bad years". Moss sandwiched a 47 catch season in between two 70+. That is what I would consider "bad" for a guy like that. Coles had a year with 1 TD. I would consider that not too good. I see Holmes having 50 catches one year and 70 another. I see him with 10 TDs and with 5. It all just depends on his situation. Is he opposite a great WR, does his team run the ball all the time, is his team always behind or does he have Tim Couch throwing to him?Maybe I should have taken Bruce off the list and put Muhammad on there. Lead the NFL in Carolina... not so much with Kyle Orton and Chicago. Both teams he played on were "good".

 

Warpig

Footballguy
Let's leave Chad Jackson out of the picture for this discussion and focus two similar WR's who were slated as the #1 and #3 WR's prior to, and perhaps after, the combine.

What we know about the players:

Santonio Holmes (5-10 1/2, 188, Estimated 4.49) - hasn't participated in any pre-draft events other than his height and weight at the combine.  Not known for speed, but is still quite fast with good hands and route running ability.

Sinorice Moss (5-8, 185, 4.38) - has participated in the Skill Challenge, Senior Bowl, where he won MVP honors, and the combine, running the 4th best 40 of the WR's.  His pass catching skills were displayed as being excellent at all the pre-draft events he has participated in.  Runs good routes, good return man, has leadership skills and is brother to a successful NFL WR.  Negative is his height and size which bring up the durability question. 

What I want to know is given everything we know about both players, why would Santonio Holmes rank higher than Sinorice Moss?
:confused: Seriously?The dude is 5'8"!! Would you want a WR that is 5'8"?

He's got kick returner written all over him.

 
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dj_stouty

Footballguy
Let's leave Chad Jackson out of the picture for this discussion and focus two similar WR's who were slated as the #1 and #3 WR's prior to, and perhaps after, the combine.

What we know about the players:

Santonio Holmes (5-10 1/2, 188, Estimated 4.49) - hasn't participated in any pre-draft events other than his height and weight at the combine.  Not known for speed, but is still quite fast with good hands and route running ability.

Sinorice Moss (5-8, 185, 4.38) - has participated in the Skill Challenge, Senior Bowl, where he won MVP honors, and the combine, running the 4th best 40 of the WR's.  His pass catching skills were displayed as being excellent at all the pre-draft events he has participated in.  Runs good routes, good return man, has leadership skills and is brother to a successful NFL WR.  Negative is his height and size which bring up the durability question. 

What I want to know is given everything we know about both players, why would Santonio Holmes rank higher than Sinorice Moss?
:confused: Seriously?The dude is 5'8"!! Would you want a WR that is 5'8"?

He's got kick returner written all over him.
I agree....plus he is SMALLER than the midgets of the league such as Steve Smith and Deion Branch and Santana Moss...The only decent WR who is Santana's size is Daunte Hall, and we all know he is a much better returner than WR.

Why waste a first rounder on 5'8"?

 

cstu

Footballguy
Let's leave Chad Jackson out of the picture for this discussion and focus two similar WR's who were slated as the #1 and #3 WR's prior to, and perhaps after, the combine.

What we know about the players:

Santonio Holmes (5-10 1/2, 188, Estimated 4.49) - hasn't participated in any pre-draft events other than his height and weight at the combine. Not known for speed, but is still quite fast with good hands and route running ability.

Sinorice Moss (5-8, 185, 4.38) - has participated in the Skill Challenge, Senior Bowl, where he won MVP honors, and the combine, running the 4th best 40 of the WR's. His pass catching skills were displayed as being excellent at all the pre-draft events he has participated in. Runs good routes, good return man, has leadership skills and is brother to a successful NFL WR. Negative is his height and size which bring up the durability question.

What I want to know is given everything we know about both players, why would Santonio Holmes rank higher than Sinorice Moss?
:confused: Seriously?The dude is 5'8"!! Would you want a WR that is 5'8"?

He's got kick returner written all over him.
I agree....plus he is SMALLER than the midgets of the league such as Steve Smith and Deion Branch and Santana Moss...The only decent WR who is Santana's size is Daunte Hall, and we all know he is a much better returner than WR.

Why waste a first rounder on 5'8"?
5-8 vs. 5-9 WR's don't have to be tall if they are quick enough to get open.

:rolleyes:

 
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Bri

Footballguy
There are dozens and dozens of WRs taken in the 1st round that everybody knows have very little chance of being a dominant or true #1 WR in the NFL.Michael Clayton
soph slump is somewhat normal in the NFL world
 

Warpig

Footballguy
Let's leave Chad Jackson out of the picture for this discussion and focus two similar WR's who were slated as the #1 and #3 WR's prior to, and perhaps after, the combine.

What we know about the players:

Santonio Holmes (5-10 1/2, 188, Estimated 4.49) - hasn't participated in any pre-draft events other than his height and weight at the combine.  Not known for speed, but is still quite fast with good hands and route running ability.

Sinorice Moss (5-8, 185, 4.38) - has participated in the Skill Challenge, Senior Bowl, where he won MVP honors, and the combine, running the 4th best 40 of the WR's.  His pass catching skills were displayed as being excellent at all the pre-draft events he has participated in.  Runs good routes, good return man, has leadership skills and is brother to a successful NFL WR.  Negative is his height and size which bring up the durability question. 

What I want to know is given everything we know about both players, why would Santonio Holmes rank higher than Sinorice Moss?
:confused: Seriously?The dude is 5'8"!! Would you want a WR that is 5'8"?

He's got kick returner written all over him.
I agree....plus he is SMALLER than the midgets of the league such as Steve Smith and Deion Branch and Santana Moss...The only decent WR who is Santana's size is Daunte Hall, and we all know he is a much better returner than WR.

Why waste a first rounder on 5'8"?
5-8 vs. 5-9 WR's don't have to be tall if they are quick enough to get open.

:rolleyes:
I thought it was 5-8 to 5-10? Either way I'll pass and let you draft him. Good luck with your kick returner. :yes:

 

Maulers

Footballguy
Santonio played for THE Ohio State University which beat the U in the 2002 Fiesta Bowl to win a national championship. Thats reason enuf! I dont care that neither of them played in that game, I just wanted to rub it in some more.

 

cstu

Footballguy
Let's leave Chad Jackson out of the picture for this discussion and focus two similar WR's who were slated as the #1 and #3 WR's prior to, and perhaps after, the combine.

What we know about the players:

Santonio Holmes (5-10 1/2, 188, Estimated 4.49) - hasn't participated in any pre-draft events other than his height and weight at the combine. Not known for speed, but is still quite fast with good hands and route running ability.

Sinorice Moss (5-8, 185, 4.38) - has participated in the Skill Challenge, Senior Bowl, where he won MVP honors, and the combine, running the 4th best 40 of the WR's. His pass catching skills were displayed as being excellent at all the pre-draft events he has participated in. Runs good routes, good return man, has leadership skills and is brother to a successful NFL WR. Negative is his height and size which bring up the durability question.

What I want to know is given everything we know about both players, why would Santonio Holmes rank higher than Sinorice Moss?
:confused: Seriously?The dude is 5'8"!! Would you want a WR that is 5'8"?

He's got kick returner written all over him.
I agree....plus he is SMALLER than the midgets of the league such as Steve Smith and Deion Branch and Santana Moss...The only decent WR who is Santana's size is Daunte Hall, and we all know he is a much better returner than WR.

Why waste a first rounder on 5'8"?
5-8 vs. 5-9 WR's don't have to be tall if they are quick enough to get open.

:rolleyes:
I thought it was 5-8 to 5-10? Either way I'll pass and let you draft him. Good luck with your kick returner. :yes:
And good luck with Deion Branch Jr.
 

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