loose circuits
Footballguy
what free agent RB is better in the passing game?'Go deep said:
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Why so down on Moreno? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Richc111
- Start date
BuckeyeChaos
Footballguy
Come on Sweet Love, this is ridiculous. The Vick comparisions should cease. Not even close. Vick opened up the field because his speed and manuverability forced defenses to respect and react in some way. You can't play him straight up. Tebow is a bruiser who is a threat because he can finish inside the 10 yd line eliminating the possibilty of a 1yd RB plunge.
BuckeyeChaos
Footballguy
50-60 with Orton as QB were possible. The dude was getting 5-6 a game until Tebow took over. He dipped to around 1 catch per game. I put his total with Tebow at 20. Even more likely to be a max if they bring in free agent help as rumored. D Will would be a serious threat to any productivity Moreno could have. Sproles would kill his catch value altogether.
loose circuits
Footballguy
Sproles? If they brought him in then I'm sure Moreno owners would be ecstatic as he'd likely be getting the chunk of carries
BuckeyeChaos
Footballguy
Come on Loose are you serious? Look at Moreno's last 3 weeks with Tebow at the helm. Anybody with a pulse will steal touches aand the question about catches was targeted at Sproles. As a former Moreno owner I'll be happy to say I was wrong after the sseason but some of you seem to need to wake up and realize that you are clinging to false hope.
i just looked at his last 3 weeks. it looks like he split carries with lance ball and buckhalter. he had 17 of the 63 carries allocated to running backs. do you attribute this distribution to tebows presence?
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ZWK
Footballguy
Moreno was injured during the 3 Tebow weeks. Apparently it's been forgotten, but he missed half the game (or more) against Oakland and Houston. You can't judge him by the stats for those gamesWeek 15 against Oakland, Moreno injured his ribs in the first quarter and was out for the rest of the game. Here's how Rotoworld put it: "Considering the way the injury was handled, it's possible Moreno cracked a rib. He left in the first quarter and simply watched from the sideline the rest of the way." You can see from the play-by-play that his last touch came with 8:22 left in the 1st quarter.
Week 16 against Houston, Moreno started, reinjured his ribs, and left the game at halftime. Rotoworld: "Moreno, battling either cracked or severely bruised ribs entering the game, took an early-game body shot that seemed to affect his performance before he spent all of the final two quarters on the sideline with helmet in hand." The play-by-play shows his last touch coming with 5:03 left in the 2nd quarter.
Week 17 against San Diego, Moreno played the whole game, but was listed as questionable with his rib injury and used sparingly as part of a rotation. Moreno had 6 of the team's 15 RB carries and 1 of their 6 RB receptions, with Buckhalter & Lance Ball getting the rest.
gianmarco
Footballguy
BuckeyeChaos
Footballguy
good one, that made me laugh.I'm probably being overly hard on him and his situation but I do think you would be wise to look elsewhere for your RB.'gianmarco said:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
This makes no sense - Are you saying that another RB would be able to run with Tebow at he helm, but not Moreno? Why are we only looking at the three game sample size where a rookie started at QB anyway?'BuckeyeChaos said:
Return of the Sheep
Footballguy
Rotoworld.com
Elway hoping for Moreno's 'breakout year'
Broncos VP of Football Operations John Elway is hoping for a "breakout year" from tailback Knowshon Moreno.
Elway didn't address the Broncos' free agency plans, but that's a pretty strong backing of Moreno as the featured runner. There's little doubt Denver will add to the backfield before training camp. Elway's comments suggest the target will be an upgrade on Moreno's backups as opposed to direct competition.
Elway hoping for Moreno's 'breakout year'
Broncos VP of Football Operations John Elway is hoping for a "breakout year" from tailback Knowshon Moreno.
Elway didn't address the Broncos' free agency plans, but that's a pretty strong backing of Moreno as the featured runner. There's little doubt Denver will add to the backfield before training camp. Elway's comments suggest the target will be an upgrade on Moreno's backups as opposed to direct competition.
BuckeyeChaos
Footballguy
Nope, just saying that another RB will get touches and cut into his workload. The Sproles part was in response to someone asking who might be available FA that would threaten Moreno's catches.
Cecil Lammey
Footballguy
Here's what Lindsay's tweet said - Other tidbits from #elway on sirius: reiterated need to get DT + RB help in FA; bronx heart von; hoping for "breakout year" for moren
f course Elway is hoping for a breakout year! What's he supposed to say, 'Moreno suxor we're moving on?' I think it's a pretty bold leap to proclaim that statement as any sort of 'super' endorsement. Let's see who the Broncos target before declaring they're moving forward with Moreno as the primary back. Adding DeAngelo Williams or Jason Snelling would change that.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Whoa whoa whoa.Adding DeAngelo would certainly change that.
Adding Snelling........mmm, not so much.
loose circuits
Footballguy
I think you missed my point. If Sproles is brought in, Moreno would end up with meat of carries since Darren is probably better suited as a COP back then bell cow. that's best case scenario IMO. I just don't see a back that is going to come in and take the majority of the work. Sproles certainly isn't that guy. Feel free to name another one? hard to find one that I would like more than Moreno
Cecil Lammey
Footballguy
I'd take Snelling over Moreno as a feature back any day.
loose circuits
Footballguy
days of the feature back are pretty much over, I can't agree with you here. Snelling is solid but not spectacular.As for Deangelo, I think Moreno would still be heavily involved in passing game work if they go down that route
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
LC, listen to Cecil, He knows things.Moreno < Snelling. Let that sink in. Not my opinion, but someone who actually covers the team. Snelling sits on most peoples waiver wires. Solid but not spectacular, yes. That is still better than the suck that Moreno is. This is all we need to know about Moreno.'loose circuits said:
The gap between the two might be closer than some people think, but to say Snelling is better than Moreno is laughable. Its alot easier to look good off the bench on a good team than try to carry the load for a bad team.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Just because one "expert" says something doesn't make it true. That's not a knock on Cecil, he has his hits and misses just like everyone else. Moreno was drafted number 12 overall for a reason. Injuries have slowed him down, but he's a more talented back than a converted full back for sure (and I do like Snelling). Also Snelling is rostered in all three of my dynasty leagues and only in one by the Turner owner (me).
To say so matter of factly that Snelling is better than Moreno is one of those times when an expert lets the term go to their head. Actually, its a pretty good prediction if your just trying to look smart. If you end up being wrong, nobody even remembers, but if somehow Snelling goes on to have a better career you look like a genius.
For the record, i dont think Moreno is ever going to be a very good back.
Cecil Lammey
Footballguy
I say it matter of factly because that's my personal opinion. I would take Snelling and his blend of size, power, and receiving ability over Moreno any day. In the last two years both have had 2 100-yd days, but Snelling has 74 receptions to Moreno's 65. Bottom line, Snelling has proven he deserves more playing time while we're (and the Broncos) are thinking about giving Moreno a smaller piece of the pie. As far as people believing or not believing it's your choice. Fantasy football is about risk management. There has been little Moreno has shown me over the last two years of watching every day of training camp, the media portion of practice, and attending every home game in the press box. If he's my RB3 or RB4 it's not a problem...I just don't think we're talking about a top 10 fantasy RB, fools gold here folks.I don't mind when people disagree with me, and I enjoy the discussion in threads like this! The headline of my first Denver Post column last year said 'Orton could throw for 4,000 and 25 TDs' - people didn't believe me until he was on pace to throw for 5,000 plus. In a Denver Post column at the beginning of OCTOBER I said the Broncos could replace Orton with Tebow during the last month of the season, I cautioned fantasy owners to get rid of Orton while they could. I took a ton of heat for that...then Tebow started the final three games. Listen, I could be wrong - as I always say about players 'prove me wrong!' Football is my only job, and from my observations Moreno is not the type of difference maker I want on my fantasy team - unless it's as a reserve player.There's a scouting term called 'stand on the table' It's when scouts really believe in a guy, they will 'stand on the table' for him in meetings. Moreno is not the type of player I will 'stand on the table' for. In 2009 he was the 17th best fantasy RB, in 2010 he was the 18th best....that's really all he'll ever be in my opinion. Again, depending on which RB they sign in free agency will indicate the front office's true feeling about Moreno.
I dont disagree with you about Moreno, well, i probably like him more than you, but i woudnt "stand on the table" for him. I guess my problem is comparing him to a guy in a completely different situation. Snelling has been healthy, and has an all aroud better situation including expectations, or lack of them in his case. I think Moreno is the more physically gifted player, but we will probably never know.
Matt Waldman
Footballguy
I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out. Certainly the work ethic whispers that Cecil has heard are the most damning argument in my eyes. The rest can be fixed/addressed. Can't say I agree with the Snelling vs. Moreno viewpoint. In fact, I wish the Broncos felt this way, too and made an offer to Atlanta 
I think Moreno is a make or break player for fantasy owners this year.
I think Moreno is a make or break player for fantasy owners this year.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
What makes you think Mike Smith would revive Moreno's career if he has work ethic issues. Hometown cooking would only make him lazier and the pressure to succeed would amplify. Be careful what you wish for.Snelling may not be as physically gifted, but there are many examples of quality backs who emerged through hard work and overachieving. Snelling fits this profile. Moreno looks like another back that lacked the will to be great, Lawrence Maroney.I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out. Certainly the work ethic whispers that Cecil has heard are the most damning argument in my eyes. The rest can be fixed/addressed. Can't say I agree with the Snelling vs. Moreno viewpoint. In fact, I wish the Broncos felt this way, too and made an offer to Atlanta
Andrew Garda
Moderator
Ted Ginn Jr was drafted 9 by the Dolphins for a reason. Just sayin'.You can't start pulling that argument out - it doesn't hold water. So Vernon Gholston is better than a player taken at the same position behind him by virtue of where he was picked? I'm nowhere near as down on Moreno as Cecil ( honestly, I don't watch him nearly as much) but draft position doesn't mean a damned thing after the draft, much less after a pair of seasons.
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Matt Waldman
Footballguy
Because I'm not sold on the idea that Moreno is a bad football player and those whispers are just that: WHISPERS. Moreno has had two injury-riddled seasons with enough production to put him in the top 20 despite two different blocking schemes in two years and now a new coach for his third season. This is a classic, half-empty/half-full type of player. I believe there's enough to argue the glass is half-full and getting filled. Others believe there's enough to argue that Moreno's glass is half-empty and draining by the second. I think using the phrase "revive Moreno's career" isn't a good way to describe Moreno's career when he's had two, top-20 fantasy years at his position during his first two seasons in the league and injury is the most credible of the reasons why he wasn't better.What makes you think Mike Smith would revive Moreno's career if he has work ethic issues. Hometown cooking would only make him lazier and the pressure to succeed would amplify. Be careful what you wish for.Snelling may not be as physically gifted, but there are many examples of quality backs who emerged through hard work and overachieving. Snelling fits this profile. Moreno looks like another back that lacked the will to be great, Lawrence Maroney.I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out. Certainly the work ethic whispers that Cecil has heard are the most damning argument in my eyes. The rest can be fixed/addressed. Can't say I agree with the Snelling vs. Moreno viewpoint. In fact, I wish the Broncos felt this way, too and made an offer to Atlanta
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I've owned him for in my leagues as RB4/5 and rarely if ever started him. From a fantasy perspective, his cummulative totals may put him in the "top 20", but realistically, he's dead weight on a FF roster. To take the analogy of "would you stand on table" for him, as it relates to fantasy. I'd answer, "hell no, I'd sooner scour the waiver wire looking for some kind of production I can count on". You have to ask yourself if having a top 20 back correlate to having a back you can "start with confidence".
Matt Waldman
Footballguy
That's good, you do that. Nothing wrong with be decisive about how you feel and proceed with it. I'm willing to give it another year based on what I've seen and what I've seen from other backs I mentioned in the past in the first page of this thread.
How many RB's in the league would you answer "hell yes"?
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I got about 15-18 RB's on my hell yes list. Of course, I have a draft strategy that is heavily RB-RB. I value this position above all others. Last year I played in only 2 leagues and had two championship teams. I had McFadden/ADP as my main RB's in one league; and Rice/Bradshaw/Blount/Mendy in the other. These are examples of my "hell-yes-I-will-stand-on-a-table-for-you" backs. These are guys I will "start with confidence".
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
That's not exactly what I said. Just sayin'.In my follow up I said he was more talented than a converted FB. Did you really think that I had no idea that first round picks could bust?
I don't think Moreno has elite level skills, but he's a smart runner, with good balance and agility. I think injuries have hampered him thus far, but even with that he's been far more effective (from both an NFL and fantasy perspective)than he's been guven credit for in this thread.
Snelling runs hard and has nice hands, but he isn't the talent that Moreno is.
I wasn't trying to insult your fellow staff member, he's very good at what he does - I just don't think they need to be followed blindly all the time and that even they have thier bias (we all do).
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Andrew Garda
Moderator
Then clarify. Because nothing you said in the whole rest of your post had anything to do with 'well he was drafted 12th for a reason'. Enlighten us - what does that mean then? The whole rest of the post stands on it's own. It's like it's from a totally different post.
So tie it in.
edited to add: That sounds more sarcastic and dooshy then I meant it to be. I really am curious on what you mean by it and what I'm misunderstanding.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I thought the next sentence did expand on it. If it wasn't clear I believe that his talent did warrant that draft spot. I also added some thoughts to the post above yours to further my thoughts. I just thought that even in your first post you were being kind of condencending - as you surely couldn't have though that no one else realizes that high draft picks could bust - in order to defend what you perceived as a slight against a fellow staff member.Frankly I think most people though the Ginn pick was a joke at the time.Then clarify. Because nothing you said in the whole rest of your post had anything to do with 'well he was drafted 12th for a reason'. Enlighten us - what does that mean then? The whole rest of the post stands on it's own. It's like it's from a totally different post.
So tie it in.
edited to add: That sounds more sarcastic and dooshy then I meant it to be. I really am curious on what you mean by it and what I'm misunderstanding.
Andrew Garda
Moderator
Well I apologize for being condescending, looking back at the post, it definitely was. I meant to be snarky but not THAT snarky. My bad - have a beer on me -
It's just sounded like the justification for it was 'well he was drafted high'. The Ginn example was an extreme one (and also, it has been said that there were several teams who had Ginn rated somewhere in that neighborhood) to prove a point. Of course I know you know a high draft pick can bust just like you know that draft position only matters so much.Regardless, I do agree that you shouldn't blindly follow anyone's advice all the time. What's the fun in FF if you don't listen to your gut and work your own team?
johnadams
Footballguy
The bolded part is the hardest to determine and the best point so far about Tebow. He's a unique talent that will take a talented OC to really maximize. And Tebow isn't taking away anything that isn't already there. Anyone drafting Moreno expecting a bump in TD production for any reason isn't paying attention to his past. Sure, it could happen, but Moreno has struggled to score without Tebow so saying he will struggle with Tebow doesn't really say much. Personally, I'd take a chance on Moreno in the mid rounds of a redraft though . In dynasty, I won't make him a target unless his owner seems to have devalued him enough and I won't trade him away unless I'm getting more in return. Whoever said Hold was spot on.
From JB's e-mail this morning (emphasis mine)...
"Elway also said the team is looking to add a running back via free agency. Moreno hasn't lived up to his limited potential in the pros so far, and John Fox may want to add an upgrade like DeAngelo Williams. The caliber of free agent addition will indicate what the Broncos front office thinks of Moreno."
Sensing a touch of FBG groupthink on Moreno. Pretty rough to describe his potential as 'limited'. Keep in mind the state of his O-line, especially early last season. More concern on ability when a player is out-performed by a lesser talent. 2009 Buckhalter seemed a few steps quicker to the hole than 2009 Moreno. However, 2010 Buckhalter, Ball and Maroney all struggled behind an O-line that rarely provided first contact beyond the line of scrimmage. Even so, 2010 Moreno seemed to have figured something out... he did very well from weeks 10-14. And was nearly the whole offense in weeks 13 and 14. So maybe it's more lack of prime opportunity rather than lack of talent that has limited Maroney's production to 17th and 18th his first two seasons.
Groupthink happens when you circle the wagons boys. Waldman's take is refreshing.
Also, it's not likely that Fox will designate Tebow his starting QB and then run him inside the 10. It's just not how a smart coach uses a QB in this league. McDaniels' use of Tebow at the end of 2010 likely had a lot more to do with McDaniels' future as a coach than it was a predictor of how Tebow would be used as a starting QB.
"Elway also said the team is looking to add a running back via free agency. Moreno hasn't lived up to his limited potential in the pros so far, and John Fox may want to add an upgrade like DeAngelo Williams. The caliber of free agent addition will indicate what the Broncos front office thinks of Moreno."
Sensing a touch of FBG groupthink on Moreno. Pretty rough to describe his potential as 'limited'. Keep in mind the state of his O-line, especially early last season. More concern on ability when a player is out-performed by a lesser talent. 2009 Buckhalter seemed a few steps quicker to the hole than 2009 Moreno. However, 2010 Buckhalter, Ball and Maroney all struggled behind an O-line that rarely provided first contact beyond the line of scrimmage. Even so, 2010 Moreno seemed to have figured something out... he did very well from weeks 10-14. And was nearly the whole offense in weeks 13 and 14. So maybe it's more lack of prime opportunity rather than lack of talent that has limited Maroney's production to 17th and 18th his first two seasons.
Groupthink happens when you circle the wagons boys. Waldman's take is refreshing.
Also, it's not likely that Fox will designate Tebow his starting QB and then run him inside the 10. It's just not how a smart coach uses a QB in this league. McDaniels' use of Tebow at the end of 2010 likely had a lot more to do with McDaniels' future as a coach than it was a predictor of how Tebow would be used as a starting QB.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
ok. my bad. but point still stands. there is a reason why starting QB's hand the ball off, slide to avoid contact and don't get the ball in the wildcat.'Raiderfan32904 said:McDaniels use of Tebow at the end of 2010? He was fired after just 12 games.'Artesian said:
here's Tebow's first TD...
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d819c8bd7/Tebow-7-yard-TD-run
if the Broncos are really committed to Tebow, then Fox will not run plays that are likely to end with hits like that.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
I find it funny that a lot of people are entertaining the idea of Denver making a move to aquire DeAngelo Williams (not saying it would be a bad idea, but let's evaluate their careers).
Williams now 28 is coming off an injury year where he only played the first 6 games of the year.
Here is Williams career so far:
-Year 1: 504 yards rushing, 1 td, 313 yards receiving 1 td, missed 3 games
-Year 2: 717 yards rushing, 4 td, 175 yards receiving 1 td
-Year 3: He blew up going for 1515 yards, 18tds, 121 receiving, 2tds
-Year 4: He had a good year but missed 3 games going for 1117 yards, 3tds, 252 yards receiving
-Year 5: He played in only 6 games going for 87 yards 1td, and 61 yards receiving
Now, many were ready to write Williams off after his first 2 seasons, however he had a couple of bounce back years.
Moreno although not spectacular has had 2 much better years than Williams first 2 years in the league and still is only 23 years of age.
Moreno:
-Year 1: 779 yards, 5tds, 372 yards receivign and 3 tds, missed 3 games
-Year 2: 947 yards, 7 tds, 213 yards receving and 2 tds, played in most of 16 games
Moreno was drafted 12th overall, and Williams 27th just on a side note.
Williams now 28 is coming off an injury year where he only played the first 6 games of the year.
Here is Williams career so far:
-Year 1: 504 yards rushing, 1 td, 313 yards receiving 1 td, missed 3 games
-Year 2: 717 yards rushing, 4 td, 175 yards receiving 1 td
-Year 3: He blew up going for 1515 yards, 18tds, 121 receiving, 2tds
-Year 4: He had a good year but missed 3 games going for 1117 yards, 3tds, 252 yards receiving
-Year 5: He played in only 6 games going for 87 yards 1td, and 61 yards receiving
Now, many were ready to write Williams off after his first 2 seasons, however he had a couple of bounce back years.
Moreno although not spectacular has had 2 much better years than Williams first 2 years in the league and still is only 23 years of age.
Moreno:
-Year 1: 779 yards, 5tds, 372 yards receivign and 3 tds, missed 3 games
-Year 2: 947 yards, 7 tds, 213 yards receving and 2 tds, played in most of 16 games
Moreno was drafted 12th overall, and Williams 27th just on a side note.
loose circuits
Footballguy
Just took a peek at Ronnie Brown's numbers. Same type of mediocrityLucky Lefty
Footballguy
. Crazy talk 
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Black&Gold
Footballguy
In PPR, I think Moreno is much more valuable. I just turned down an offer of Jonathan Stewart for Moreno in dynasty. PPR of course. You are looking at a guy that could catch 50 balls a game.
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Andrew Garda
Moderator
Fairly good points all (aside from the draft position holding any meaning, but I already went down this road and it was messy
) - it's early to toss Moreno out, even if so far it's been underwhelming. Of course, Williams' numbers were poor his first few seasons because he was on the bench as Fox loves his vets, not really so much because williams was bad.Moreno hasn't had to fight for a starting job.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
No worries.'Andrew Garda said:Well I apologize for being condescending, looking back at the post, it definitely was. I meant to be snarky but not THAT snarky. My bad - have a beer on me -
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
The reason I put their draft positions is more so that first round draft picks will get opportunities to succeed on more than one occasion. Moreno, still will have plenty of opportunity to have a very good career going forward.Fairly good points all (aside from the draft position holding any meaning, but I already went down this road and it was messy
LawFitz
Footballguy
Few thoughts/reactions, in no particular order...
1. Lammy's insight about his work ethic is extremely alarming.
2. He hasn't passed my eye test at any point during his first two years. Dude looks more like Slowshon.
3. Injuries and experience level shouldn't be understated. See McFadden... DMC lacked burst during his first two years due to injuries, but got it back and them some last year.
4. Not buying Elway's remarks at all. John's proven to be unreliable in terms of his public comments regarding his players, especially when strategic offseason tactics are involved.
5. The Tebow vulture effect is a legit concern. TT is a force at the goal line.
6. A lot of this stuff might be offset to some degree by receptions. Moreno can catch. PPR value is clearly higher.
7. Don't underestimate the risk involved with a new coaching staff. Fox doesn't give a shyte about where Moreno was drafted and won't hesitate to look elsewhere if he's unhappy with KM.
1. Lammy's insight about his work ethic is extremely alarming.
2. He hasn't passed my eye test at any point during his first two years. Dude looks more like Slowshon.
3. Injuries and experience level shouldn't be understated. See McFadden... DMC lacked burst during his first two years due to injuries, but got it back and them some last year.
4. Not buying Elway's remarks at all. John's proven to be unreliable in terms of his public comments regarding his players, especially when strategic offseason tactics are involved.
5. The Tebow vulture effect is a legit concern. TT is a force at the goal line.
6. A lot of this stuff might be offset to some degree by receptions. Moreno can catch. PPR value is clearly higher.
7. Don't underestimate the risk involved with a new coaching staff. Fox doesn't give a shyte about where Moreno was drafted and won't hesitate to look elsewhere if he's unhappy with KM.
If Moreno can have an 800 catch season then he would only be behind Finely in value. I wouldn't sell him for James Stewart either, as Stewart has been retired for years. Jon Stewart I would take for him, though, as he is actually good at running the ball, which Moreno does not do well at.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Moreno is not a good #1. He is a decent #2. He would be a really good #3.
Battling stupid nagging injuries, he has managed to score a decent amount of TDs, catch some passes, and score in the top 20.
If you are in a league that starts 2 RBs and has a flex option for a 3rd, Moreno is a very good back to have.
Looking at the last 3 games last year is pointless. Denver was WAYYYY out of playoff contention. No team uses (or should use) their starting RB for a full workloaed in that situation.
In fact, when teams have nothing to play for, it's hard to get a read on ANYTHING for that team.
Battling stupid nagging injuries, he has managed to score a decent amount of TDs, catch some passes, and score in the top 20.
If you are in a league that starts 2 RBs and has a flex option for a 3rd, Moreno is a very good back to have.
Looking at the last 3 games last year is pointless. Denver was WAYYYY out of playoff contention. No team uses (or should use) their starting RB for a full workloaed in that situation.
In fact, when teams have nothing to play for, it's hard to get a read on ANYTHING for that team.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I always thought Buckhalter looked far better than Moreno. And Buckhalter is nothing more than a journeyman. Moreno is like Marshawn Lynch. He's just not that good.
