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Why would anyone need an assault rifle? (4 Viewers)

Assault Rifles


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The second amendment was written so Americans could own guns that we could defend ourselves with and kill people if we needed to.  Morality and religion is why we don't kill people.    AR15 type guns are exactly what the second amendment protects.  Banning AR15s strikes at the heart of the second amendment and I would be completely against that.  You have to find another way.
Why the distinction with semi-automatic rifles weapons like the AR-15 and fully automatic weapons, which the Heller decision specifically held out of 2A coverage? Neither existed at the time it was written so clearly there is an interpretation of what is considered to be reasonably defined "arms" people should have access to for legitimate defense and sporting purposes. 

 
The second amendment was written so Americans could own guns that we could defend ourselves with and kill people if we needed to.  Morality and religion is why we don't kill people.    AR15 type guns are exactly what the second amendment protects.  Banning AR15s strikes at the heart of the second amendment and I would be completely against that.  You have to find another way.
If I wanted to own a tactical nuclear weapon, would the 2nd Amendment protect me? 

 
Ok sorry if it it wasn't you but many people in this thread have said we shouldn't have gun laws since they won't be followed since criminals don't follow laws.  I am going against that point which doesn't make sense.
Just curious on your thoughts about all the shootings in Chicago and the people following the guns laws there? Are you saying that you think criminals are following gun laws?

 
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Seems to me like improving the bureaucracy to facilitate this would be exponentially cheaper than some sort of buy-back plan, or armed guards everywhere.
I would tend to agree, though I am always surprised at how much it costs for the Federal government to do something poorly.

 
Coyotes, wolves and assorted other mid-sized predators.

Not a big issue for most of us, but apparently for some people they are.
There's nothing an AR-15 is going to do for you hunting coyotes and wolves that a bolt-action rifle won't do for you, in my experience, but I guess that seems like something people probably do now with AR-15s.  

 
The cost of buying them all back would be prohibitive, relative to the lives saved.

That sounds horrible and callous, but cost-benefit analysis is part of making public policy decisions in a world of finite resources.
A quick search puts the number of guns that fall into the AR-15 category at 20-30 Million. So I think a high end estimate would put the buy back somewhere in the 15 Billion range. A lot of people would buy new guns so some of that would be offset by new revenues. Maybe we increase lisencing fees also and keep access available but much harder as you noted. It's not a small number but I also think it's workable. 

 
There's nothing an AR-15 is going to do for you hunting coyotes and wolves that a bolt-action rifle won't do for you, in my experience, but I guess that seems like something people probably do now with AR-15s.  
I was just referencing it as something that somebody else has mentioned, not endorsing it.

 
IMO, the 2nd Amendment does not protect the individual right to own a firearm. The Heller decision makes no sense to me. If the Founding Fathers intended this to be an individual right, they would not have mentioned the purpose of having a militia. Seems very straightforward. 

Hopefully, eventually Heller will be overturned. 

 
A quick search puts the number of guns that fall into the AR-15 category at 20-30 Million. So I think a high end estimate would put the buy back somewhere in the 15 Billion range. A lot of people would buy new guns so some of that would be offset by new revenues. Maybe we increase lisencing fees also and keep access available but much harder as you noted. It's not a small number but I also think it's workable. 
I wrote a lengthy post on it a page or two back. 

I assumed 10 million and came up with a buy-back cost of $18.5 bln. If the number is 2-3x as high, then so is the cost.

 
Maybe I'm way off base, but I think it's clear by this point that the only real reason to own an AR-15 or similar weapon is in case "they" come for you. Whether "they" means zombies, a foreign invading army, other people coming to take your stuff when society collapses, or the government is dependent on the person, but it's for killing people (assuming we can still call zombies people).  Right?  I mean, is there some other legitimate concern that's addressed by these that I'm missing?

*I like guns.  I own guns.  I'm not in favor of banning guns.  
I believe the politically correct terms are elderly, senior citizens, or members of the greatest generation, not zombies.

 
I was just referencing it as something that somebody else has mentioned, not endorsing it.
I guess if you're targeting multiple targets with distance between them, you may have a chance with a semi-auto rifle that a bolt-action won't give you.  But I'm sure that happens.

 
IMO, the 2nd Amendment does not protect the individual right to own a firearm. The Heller decision makes no sense to me. If the Founding Fathers intended this to be an individual right, they would not have mentioned the purpose of having a militia. Seems very straightforward. 

Hopefully, eventually Heller will be overturned. 
If the Founding Fathers didn't intend it to be an individual right, why is it in what is known as the Bill of Rights and completely surrounded by other amendments that confer, enumerate or clarify individual rights? Seems incredibly straightforward to me.

 
Just curious on your thoughts about all the shootings in Chicago and the people following the guns laws there?
I think it is horrible but it doesn't mean we just remove the gun laws from Chicago.  I am not expert on Chicago but imagine they have a similar issue as NYC which I am more familiar with since I live here.  In NYC studies have shown that 90% of guns used in crimes are actually brought in from out of state from states with lax gun laws. Clearly the laws in NY state are having an impact on people getting guns in NY so they need to go out of state where there are more lax gun laws.   

 
I wrote a lengthy post on it a page or two back. 

I assumed 10 million and came up with a buy-back cost of $18.5 bln. If the number is 2-3x as high, then so is the cost.
I'll look for it but that seems high to me. Even if you assume 60B, as a predominantly one-time expense it's pretty easily absorbed in the budget and as I mentioned could be partially offset by pigovian taxes. 

 
If the Founding Fathers didn't intend it to be an individual right, why is it in what is known as the Bill of Rights and completely surrounded by other amendments that confer, enumerate or clarify individual rights? Seems incredibly straightforward to me.
It's the only one of those that has a caveat at the beginning. If it wasn't for the purpose of a militia, then why mention a militia? 

As you know, the Supreme Court has NEVER treated this as an individual right until Heller, which is a very recent decision (and 5-4 as well.) 

 
I'm kind of getting the hankerin' to fire one of these AR15s before we ban 'em. Can you just go to a range and rent to shoot for a few minutes? And do ranges serve booze or should I bring my own?

 
So you think they'd be cool with Cletus owning a nuclear weapon?
And this is the final unanswerable question that destroys the 2nd Amendment argument. Because if the 2nd Amendment can be interpreted to include AR-15s, it can be interpreted to include ALL weapons, including nuclear weapons.

ETA- it's unanswerable unless someone wants to contradict himself, as Christo just did. 

 
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No. Now you answer my question.
I don't think your question makes the point you are suggesting it does. Yes, I think they were aware that technology advances. But I also think that there would have also been additional verbiage like "this includes Cletus' bazooka and high capacity rapid fire weaponry." I think it was purposely left vague so that it would be revisited as technology progressed, not so that all killing machines for all time are legal.

 
Why the distinction with semi-automatic rifles weapons like the AR-15 and fully automatic weapons, which the Heller decision specifically held out of 2A coverage? Neither existed at the time it was written so clearly there is an interpretation of what is considered to be reasonably defined "arms" people should have access to for legitimate defense and sporting purposes. 
Not really sure what the legal distinction is but I don't have a real problem with the constitutionality of a full auto ban.  To me, a moral and responsible person will aim and pull the trigger once for each legitimate target and be responsible for each bullet sent downrange.  His brain is engaged on each shot whether the gun action is semi auto, bolt or pump.   Fully auto you pull the trigger once and spray everything down range it seems like you could easily hit things you really didnt mean to hit.

 
And this is the final unanswerable question that destroys the 2nd Amendment argument. Because if the 2nd Amendment can be interpreted to include AR-15s, it can be interpreted to include ALL weapons, including nuclear weapons.

ETA- it's unanswerable unless someone wants to contradict himself, as Christo just did. 
You can be so simple sometimes.

 
I'm kind of getting the hankerin' to fire one of these AR15s before we ban 'em. Can you just go to a range and rent to shoot for a few minutes? And do ranges serve booze or should I bring my own?
Not sure if they are a good place to meet women though. I'd hate to have to break up with someone who is a better shot than I am.

 
I don't think your question makes the point you are suggesting it does. Yes, I think they were aware that technology advances. But I also think that there would have also been additional verbiage like "this includes Cletus' bazooka and high capacity rapid fire weaponry." I think it was purposely left vague so that it would be revisited as technology progressed, not so that all killing machines for all time are legal.
:lmao:

 
I asked the question because you said you think criminals follow gun laws.
I never said that.  I said that some people are deterred by laws.  If you commit a crime and are a criminal it obviously didn't work for that person which is why you part of criminal law is punishment.  

 
Speeding, which was brought up, is a good example. If the speed limit is 55 miles an hour many people ignore it and drive 70. But if there was NO speed limit a lot of these same people might choose to drive 90 or as fast as their engine would allow. Even for those who ignore the law, the existence of the law (in this case the speed limit of 55) creates a deterrent that has an effect on their behavior. 
And thus it saves lives that might otherwise have been lost

 
I never said that.  I said that some people are deterred by laws.  If you commit a crime and are a criminal it obviously didn't work for that person which is why you part of criminal law is punishment.  
Here is what you wrote....

" Ok sorry if it it wasn't you but many people in this thread have said we shouldn't have gun laws since they won't be followed since criminals don't follow laws.  I am going against that point which doesn't make sense."

You are going against the point that criminals don't follow gun laws.....which means you think criminals DO follow gun laws.

 
Here is what you wrote....

" Ok sorry if it it wasn't you but many people in this thread have said we shouldn't have gun laws since they won't be followed since criminals don't follow laws.  I am going against that point which doesn't make sense."

You are going against the point that criminals don't follow gun laws.....which means you think criminals DO follow gun laws.
I am going against the point that it we shouldn't have a law because it will just be broken by someone.  

 
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I'll look for it but that seems high to me. Even if you assume 60B, as a predominantly one-time expense it's pretty easily absorbed in the budget and as I mentioned could be partially offset by pigovian taxes. 
Not high. At the extreme 30 million x $1,500 = $45 bln, plus ammunition, plus administrative costs.

A more relevant point is that if the number is really 30 million, that is closing in on 10% of the total guns in the country, based on the common understanding that there are +/- 350 million guns in the US. If they are as large a threat to public safety as is being assumed here, why is it they account for ~2% of homicides while being almost 10% of the stock of firearms in circulation?

 
Not really sure what the legal distinction is but I don't have a real problem with the constitutionality of a full auto ban.  To me, a moral and responsible person will aim and pull the trigger once for each legitimate target and be responsible for each bullet sent downrange.  His brain is engaged on each shot whether the gun action is semi auto, bolt or pump.   Fully auto you pull the trigger once and spray everything down range it seems like you could easily hit things you really didnt mean to hit.
I think this is a pretty reasonable point. The Supreme Court basically used the rationale of what is generally available to determine what can or can't be limited. Since the AR-15 and similar arms are ubiquitous they certainly would be covered under Heller but automatic "Machine Guns" as the court used are not. Their reasoning, which I don't really agree with is that commonly held arms are what citizens would bring to a militia vs. what an organized military would provide. 

I think the much better conversation is around marginal utility vs. public safety. By the current Supreme Court defintion a new class of weapon could come on the market and become pervasive before legislation is even passed to regulate it and in theory be covered based on, well people have them now. 

 
This discussion has gone on for 20 pages about a type of weapon that accounts for ~2% of gun homicides in a year.
I think the most staunch gun owners realize there is a growing national sentiment to get rid of some of these weapons, hence the rapid rate of discussion here (as well as other places).

 

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