Wierd Commish Issue - From LAST year (1 Viewer)

[GibbyGarcia]

OK- I've never posted one of these, mostly because we have a league that's been together since the USA Today box score days and I've built a constitution that is 25+ pages and covers every wierd and idiotic situation I've seen in the past 16 or so years. (The Shark Pool has been a big help with that).

But I've got one that actually got me this year and I was curious what random people on my favorite message board thought.

Our Championship game last year ended with Team A winning by a 3 point margin over Team B. That last game on Monday was an exciting one as Team A started a half dozen points in the hole and didn't pull ahead until the 4th. Yeah Team A! Post on Tuesday morning with the congrats and into the hibernation that is post FF. (I don't obsess in the off season like I used to)

Fast Forward to 3 weeks ago - Owner Team A sends me a strange note that I've put in the wrong champion on the site and to get it fixed. I didn't put anything in, so I went to check. Sure enough, the NEW final has Team B winning by 2 points. Caught offguard, I investigate and discover that, sure enough, the NFL revised some points on that Thursday and awarded a sack to Team B and removed a catch from a player on Team A. We have a new champion and no one had noticed.

I sent out the explanation and a sincere apology to Team A and shared with everyone the details. Our rules state that the NFL and site are the final arbitrarors of scoring and that is that. The Team A is insane pissed (it was his first title in 16+ years in the league) and claims that once I announced him the champ and a week went by without MY correction, THAT was the end of it and whats to keep the NFL/site from changing scores from prior weeks, etc.

He's filed a protest and since the draft is tonight, I'd like some closure. Thoughts? Any disenting opinions?

 

[solorca]

Unless you have a rule stating that the season is over when you make the announcement, then Team B is the winner.

The situation sucks, and the blame should fall on you, as the commish, for not checking for corrections...especially since you have a rule in place that dictates the NFL is the final arbitrator of scoring. The NFL always announces corrections on Thursday, so with a close score, you should have checked (and I'm sure you will in the future).

 

[netnalp]

There's also the might be an issue too.

 

[SSOG]

Team B is the champion, team A is pissed. If it makes him feel better, tell him to pretend it's college football and to feel free to declare himself the champion, anyway.

 

[rocketsauce]

I'm gonna assume there's no money on the line since it isn't mentioned. THAT would be a mess.

I think you've got to stick with the revised champion. Does this massive constitution say anything about NFL revisions and when they have to take place to count? They almost always happen on the Thursday morning following games, so it isn't an issue. We play on MFL, where the commissioner has to click a button to apply stat changes. The onus is on the owners to find those mistakes, tell the commish, and have the changes made. If you don't do this by the following week's kickoff, the results stand (This isn't terribly helpful, since the "next week" still hasn't kicked off for your situation...)

I don't know -- this is a tough one.

 

[Hoss Style]

Unless you have a rule stating that the season is over when you make the announcement, then Team B is the winner.The situation sucks, and the blame should fall on you, as the commish, for not checking for corrections...especially since you have a rule in place that dictates the NFL is the final arbitrator of scoring. The NFL always announces corrections on Thursday, so with a close score, you should have checked (and I'm sure you will in the future).

I was just about to type the same thing. I hate to say it - but it's on you. You forgot to check for any corrections on Thursday (or Friday morning like our Commish does). As far as his concerns about the NFL randomly changing stats from two weeks or more previous; I've never seen it done. I'm pretty sure the stat corrections on Thursday are the final corrections they make.I think at your draft you should state who the winner is and the reasons why and then get feedback from your league. If all hell breaks loose then offer to take a vote from the owners on who should win. Just like in the NFL the owners run the show so they could technically declare Team B the champ and make a one time exception. From then on there are no more exceptions and the rule is what it is. I'm pretty sure if it does go to vote, though, that the owners will see that Team B is the winner.Hope that helps.

 

[ImTheScientist]

He's filed a protest and since the draft is tonight, I'd like some closure. Thoughts? Any disenting opinions?

Tell the team A owner rules are the rules. Take his complaint and shove it.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I've built a constitution that is 25+ pages and covers every wierd and idiotic situation I've seen in the past 16 or so years.

How do you have a 25+ page constitution and not have something in there about when scores become final? That seems to be a pretty common issue with the league making stat changes later in the week, it seems like you must have had to address it at some point in 16 years (or at least you'd have seen it come up in the Shark Pool before). If it was your rule to defer to the host website for all such scoring issues, then that's that. Sucks for Team A but rules are rules. The NFL makes stat corrections pretty much every week days after the games are over - if your league website incorporates those changes and adjusts the scores of your fantasy teams, then it is what it is. At the very least, the website should mention somewhere how those stat changes are handled, so you can refer Team A to that portion of the site to at least explain your decision.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Team A has every reason to be upset. Imagine you finally won your first title in more than 15 years, told the long-suffering wife (who was sick of hearing about it) that it finally paid off, trash-talked your friends for an entire off-season...and then it's taken away right before the draft.

Say whatever you want, but that's harsh. Put yourself in his shoes.

Now, as commish, you did mess up. One time I was running a total points league and we had a close finish. Not only did I wait until the final scoring changes were out...I had the program re-run the entire season's stats. Twice. Overkill? Maybe, but I didn't want any doubt that the winner was the winner.

Now, I think you have to be a budget therapist. Talk to team A and ask them: If you were still declared the winner, would you feel good about it? Everyone knows you didn't win. Everybody knows you were outscored by what happened on the field. There's no good solution here, so isn't it just better to declare the true winner the winner and move on?

My guess is Team A isn't upset that the title was stripped. He's upset at the way things shook out, and I can empathize. Imagine waiting 16 years for a title and then losing it months later. Team B won, but you have to handle it in a more sensitive way since you're the reason it took so long to find out.

And if anybody thinks I'm being too touchy-feely with this response...I'm guessing you've won a title in the past 16 years. If you played this game for more than a decade and a half with no payoff, watching your friends win year after year...it would be an unusual situation. I've had losing streaks where it was several years between titles. I can't imagine what 16 years would be like, and then to lose it like that. Just my .02.

 

[GregR]

I suggest people set their rule on this in advance in this thread, and I would use the suggestion there in a case like this. In fact, here's a potential write up I would give to your league if you'd come to me and asked me to render a decision for your league:

There are some practical considerations that have to be accounted for in a general rule of when game results are considered final. Considerations we'll abide by in coming up with how to deal with this particular situation. We want it to be long enough to catch the usual frequency of stat changes (which is typically Wednesday night, very early Thursday morning from Elias). We also want it to be consistent throughout the season, including for the championship game.

But one of the biggest issues to account for is that playoff games have matchups set based on results of previous games. Changing the seeding of playoffs after games have already been played is obviously something to avoid at all costs. Therefore we have practical limit that the last game of the regular season must be final by the start of NFL games the first playoff week.

So taking those 3 things into account, we essentially have a rule that every game has to be final by the start of NFL games the following week, and the window has to extend to at least past Thursday morning to catch the normal release of stats changes by Elias. Even though the championship game doesn't have a need to end the stat change window with the start of the next week of games, to meet our goal of consistency it will end at the same time.

So applying this reasonable set of conditions to this particular situation... if the stat changes for the championship game came from Elias in a normal time frame and were available by the Thursday after the championship game, they count in the championship game. If not, they don't.

 

[GregR]

Oh, and incidentally.... if you have MFL set to automatically apply stat changes on Thursday morning, it will actually send a leaguewide email showing the final results with stat changes applied on Thursday. So owners have no room to complain that there wasn't notification of the final game result.

 

[CrazyFox]

That's a sucky situation.

But you wrote that "rules state that the NFL and site are the final arbitrators of scoring and that is that". So that is that. Team B wins.

I'm sure Team A is crushed...but he technically didn't win.

But if you want to make sure you don't take all the heat, have a vote at the draft and let the league decide.

And maybe have a few extra beers on hand for Team A.

 

[whatadai]

LOL Team B won. We had a similar issue...Team A had won in our championship game but Team B's owner realized that the stats for one of his players were incorrect and news came out that the player's stats would be corrected, which would give Team B the win. I told him we'd have to wait until stat corrections on that Thursday and when they came he got those points and more since another one of his players had his stats corrected. However, Team A also had players whose stats were corrected, which gave him more points along with the win. The final score was 423.58 to 426.87.

 

[GibbyGarcia]

As always, great contributions and thanks Greg for that link.

A couple of follow ups.

1. For those that are calling me the responsible one. You are all absolutely correct. This was absolutely my fault, both on not thinking about the potential on such a close game of scoring revisions and on not following up after Thursday just to double check. I had a rough fall last year outside of FF (and in it because of it) and I simply was happy for the season to end as commish.

2. We totally have a rule for this. And it reads exactly how you'd expect. "All points and scoring for each week are determined as final by the NFL and Elias Sports Bureau. (We use NFL.com now so they are automatic adjusted) All protests to any scoring must be submitted no later than Friday prior to the next weeks games."

4. However, we've never had a situation in the playoffs that I know of. We even have a tie-breaker scenario that goes 8 deep. I really like Greg's suggestion on the decision and it looks like we've got an add.

5. I get his shoes totally. He is the only one left without one. I went the the champ game and lost for the first 5 years and didn't finally get one until year 9... and several of these guys were not sharks early on, makes you friggin crazy. This guy really is and I'll be doing everything in my power to appease him

6. This is totally a money league. Champ gets $750 Loser gets $250 and he's not wealthy so that I'm sure plays a role as well.

Thanks for the insight all of you!

 

[GibbyGarcia]

Oh, and incidentally.... if you have MFL set to automatically apply stat changes on Thursday morning, it will actually send a leaguewide email showing the final results with stat changes applied on Thursday. So owners have no room to complain that there wasn't notification of the final game result.

Amen. This is the only league I have not on MFL. It took me 8 years to get them off of CBS and they picked NFL. Maybe next decade.

 

[GibbyGarcia]

LOL Team B won. We had a similar issue...Team A had won in our championship game but Team B's owner realized that the stats for one of his players were incorrect and news came out that the player's stats would be corrected, which would give Team B the win. I told him we'd have to wait until stat corrections on that Thursday and when they came he got those points and more since another one of his players had his stats corrected. However, Team A also had players whose stats were corrected, which gave him more points along with the win. The final score was 423.58 to 426.87.

423 points? Holy Crap. I can't imagine the scoring system you use. and .00??? Thank the lord for the internet or you'd be counting that stuff up from 2009 still.

 

[whatadai]

What I find funny is that Team A's arrogance brought this on himself by telling the commissioner to correct it when no one had even noticed that the winner had changed.

 

[Addai's Adidas]

As always, great contributions and thanks Greg for that link. A couple of follow ups.1. For those that are calling me the responsible one. You are all absolutely correct. This was absolutely my fault, both on not thinking about the potential on such a close game of scoring revisions and on not following up after Thursday just to double check. I had a rough fall last year outside of FF (and in it because of it) and I simply was happy for the season to end as commish. 2. We totally have a rule for this. And it reads exactly how you'd expect. "All points and scoring for each week are determined as final by the NFL and Elias Sports Bureau. (We use NFL.com now so they are automatic adjusted) All protests to any scoring must be submitted no later than Friday prior to the next weeks games."4. However, we've never had a situation in the playoffs that I know of. We even have a tie-breaker scenario that goes 8 deep. I really like Greg's suggestion on the decision and it looks like we've got an add.5. I get his shoes totally. He is the only one left without one. I went the the champ game and lost for the first 5 years and didn't finally get one until year 9... and several of these guys were not sharks early on, makes you friggin crazy. This guy really is and I'll be doing everything in my power to appease him6. This is totally a money league. Champ gets $750 Loser gets $250 and he's not wealthy so that I'm sure plays a role as well.Thanks for the insight all of you!

No way he gives the money back, or should he. It's gone!

 

[Plaid Boxer]

So there is a kicker to this, you will be asking Team A to give Team $500 at the draft? Not everyone has that cash ready.

 

[CrazyFox]

6. This is totally a money league. Champ gets $750 Loser gets $250 and he's not wealthy so that I'm sure plays a role as well.

Ouch. $500 difference.

 

[Plaid Boxer]

Team B will never have felt the thrill of winning and now will take $500 from a cash strapped friend. Commish may want to work out a payment plan.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Tell owner A "maybe next year".........

 

[mphtrilogy]

he (original owner) is champion, the season was closed and in the books, and all scoring changes should have a final date (lets say last years superbowl, or at the very latest the NFL draft).

WE are in a new season, the guys should reign, to pull it from him at this point is wrong, very wrong as too much time has passed.

You need to have a final end of season locked down score. Superbowl should have been the last time the score "could" have changed at the very latest, and it needed to be announced by that date.

I say you keep the original owner.

commish for 22 years..

 

[meyerj31]

There's no way I'm coughing up $500 7 months after the fact because someone didn't notice the NFL changed a stat.

Let's use common sense here people. If the change isn't caught by the time the money goes out, it's done and over. If you want to change his draft order the next year, that's fine, but to take money back from him at this point would be ludicrous.

 

[whatadai]

LOL Team B won. We had a similar issue...Team A had won in our championship game but Team B's owner realized that the stats for one of his players were incorrect and news came out that the player's stats would be corrected, which would give Team B the win. I told him we'd have to wait until stat corrections on that Thursday and when they came he got those points and more since another one of his players had his stats corrected. However, Team A also had players whose stats were corrected, which gave him more points along with the win. The final score was 423.58 to 426.87.

423 points? Holy Crap. I can't imagine the scoring system you use. and .00??? Thank the lord for the internet or you'd be counting that stuff up from 2009 still.

Yeah...25 man starting lineups, 60 man active rosters and 8 man practice squads. The decimal system, however, is not that rare. I've been in them since my first fantasy football league. I would suggest trying to get your league to vote it in because it could save a lot of tiebreaker headaches.

 

[whatadai]

There's no way I'm coughing up $500 7 months after the fact because someone didn't notice the NFL changed a stat.Let's use common sense here people. If the change isn't caught by the time the money goes out, it's done and over. If you want to change his draft order the next year, that's fine, but to take money back from him at this point would be ludicrous.

I agree. Plus Team B has been fine for 7 months believing that he didn't win. It's on him too that it wasn't discovered earlier.

 

[sbonomo]

Team B will never have felt the thrill of winning and now will take $500 from a cash strapped friend. Commish may want to work out a payment plan.

this is probably the correct play here.....hopefully Team B is cool with the situation.

 

[CrazyFox]

Maybe he could take a collection at the draft so Team B could get some of his winnings?

I don't know. Bad situation to be in.

 

[CrazyFox]

So there is a kicker to this, you will be asking Team A to give Team $500 at the draft? Not everyone has that cash ready.

Yeah that makes it complicated. On one hand Team B deserves the money....but on the other hand, Team A is put in a horrible position of being in debt to someone through no fault of his own.

 

[Hoss Style]

I didn't know money was involved. I wouldn't make Team A give back the money. If I were in your shoes (and I had a bit of money to spare) I'd put it on me and waive Team B's sign up fees every year until the $500 is paid back. Talk to Team B in private before the draft. See if he even wants the money he should have won. He may not - and then you dodge a huge bullet. If you can't foot the sign up fees every year then maybe put it to vote - will every owner chip in $5 extra each year to cover Team B's sign up fees (or whatever it comes out to). Or maybe since you are the Commish - you propose to chip in $15 extra every year as it was your mistake and the other owners chip in $3 each to cover B's fees. I'm sure the numbers will be higher but you get the idea.

Try to work something out. There are tons of options and you'll probably get some other good ideas here in this thread. The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that you don't ask for $500 back from a guy 7 months later when he probably needs it (and has already spent it). If it was demanded back he'd probably walk. And he'd have every right to.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I didn't know money was involved. I wouldn't make Team A give back the money. If I were in your shoes (and I had a bit of money to spare) I'd put it on me and waive Team B's sign up fees every year until the $500 is paid back. Talk to Team B in private before the draft. See if he even wants the money he should have won. He may not - and then you dodge a huge bullet. If you can't foot the sign up fees every year then maybe put it to vote - will every owner chip in $5 extra each year to cover Team B's sign up fees (or whatever it comes out to). Or maybe since you are the Commish - you propose to chip in $15 extra every year as it was your mistake and the other owners chip in $3 each to cover B's fees. I'm sure the numbers will be higher but you get the idea.

Try to work something out. There are tons of options and you'll probably get some other good ideas here in this thread. The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that you don't ask for $500 back from a guy 7 months later when he probably needs it (and has already spent it). If it was demanded back he'd probably walk. And he'd have every right to.

No way the guy has to give money back if he already received it.I think the solution is pretty simple. You simply credit Team B his ownership fees each year until the winnings are exhausted and reduce the payouts for the following years accordingly. It won't be that much of a difference and the guy still gets "paid" as in free fantasy football for a few years. Nice little bonus when you walk into a draft not paying anything. Maybe having that for a few years makes up for not having a true victory lap for winning the previous year.

 

[footballnerd]

fantasy layaway plan

 

[Hoss Style]

Just an added thought - are these guys friends? Or are they hard asses who will fight tooth and nail to get what's theirs? Maybe sit down with both of them and see if they can meet in the middle? Maybe halves? Give Team A, since he's tight on money, a year to pay back Team B.

Think outside the box. There's a solution that makes everyone happy. It just might be a b***h to find it.

 

[whatadai]

I didn't know money was involved. I wouldn't make Team A give back the money. If I were in your shoes (and I had a bit of money to spare) I'd put it on me and waive Team B's sign up fees every year until the $500 is paid back. Talk to Team B in private before the draft. See if he even wants the money he should have won. He may not - and then you dodge a huge bullet. If you can't foot the sign up fees every year then maybe put it to vote - will every owner chip in $5 extra each year to cover Team B's sign up fees (or whatever it comes out to). Or maybe since you are the Commish - you propose to chip in $15 extra every year as it was your mistake and the other owners chip in $3 each to cover B's fees. I'm sure the numbers will be higher but you get the idea.

Try to work something out. There are tons of options and you'll probably get some other good ideas here in this thread. The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that you don't ask for $500 back from a guy 7 months later when he probably needs it (and has already spent it). If it was demanded back he'd probably walk. And he'd have every right to.

No way the guy has to give money back if he already received it.I think the solution is pretty simple. You simply credit Team B his ownership fees each year until the winnings are exhausted and reduce the payouts for the following years accordingly. It won't be that much of a difference and the guy still gets "paid" as in free fantasy football for a few years. Nice little bonus when you walk into a draft not paying anything. Maybe having that for a few years makes up for not having a true victory lap for winning the previous year.

It's not that simple. Every way someone has thought of on here has consisted of Team A keeping all the money that he did not legitimately win, while Team B also wins all the money that he did legitimately win...where's all this money coming from? The pockets of every other owner in the league. Why is it on them to lose money? I believe Team A should keep the money and Team B should just take it like a champ...but I don't know the owner for Team B, so...

Considering it's been nine months...Team A should keep the money. Otherwise, a precedent could be started where 16 years of stats could be filed through and corrected.

 

[rocketsauce]

I'm a 12 year commish, and should this unfortunate situation have arisen in my Re-Draft league, I'd probably want to rule as follows:

The result stays, the payout stays, and the year gets a big old fat asterisk on it.

I really don't think you can change the winner now. It sucks, it goes against "the book", but if nobody bothered to log onto the site after Christmas last year (seriously, how does that even happen) than you've got to simply close the book on the season.

Asking a man to pay somebody $500 in winnings from 9 months ago is absurd, irresponsible, and near impossible for some people to even do.

 

[Sweet Love]

Just to unpack this for a second, your OP says Team A called out that he did not win (due to the changes post season ending), but Team A (the same team) is now pissed that he did not win?

 

[whatadai]

Just to unpack this for a second, your OP says Team A called out that he did not win (due to the changes post season ending), but Team A (the same team) is now pissed that he did not win?

He won...then it changed...no one checked for months...then he goes back to see his name as the champion again cause it's his first win ever and seeing his fake football team's name on one line of a website no one looks at makes him feel accomplished. Realizes his name is not listed under champion...instead of checking as to why it did not list him as champion he decides to complain that someone made a mistake and to correct it by putting his name under champion again...then people figure out he didn't really win, tell him, and he cries.

 

[rocketsauce]

Just to unpack this for a second, your OP says Team A called out that he did not win (due to the changes post season ending), but Team A (the same team) is now pissed that he did not win?

I'd say it was likely he was looking at some Plaque or Trophy thing online, and simply saw the "wrong champion" posted on it, without investigating why. Otherwise, I doubt he would have brought it up.

 

[Hoss Style]

I didn't know money was involved. I wouldn't make Team A give back the money. If I were in your shoes (and I had a bit of money to spare) I'd put it on me and waive Team B's sign up fees every year until the $500 is paid back. Talk to Team B in private before the draft. See if he even wants the money he should have won. He may not - and then you dodge a huge bullet. If you can't foot the sign up fees every year then maybe put it to vote - will every owner chip in $5 extra each year to cover Team B's sign up fees (or whatever it comes out to). Or maybe since you are the Commish - you propose to chip in $15 extra every year as it was your mistake and the other owners chip in $3 each to cover B's fees. I'm sure the numbers will be higher but you get the idea.

Try to work something out. There are tons of options and you'll probably get some other good ideas here in this thread. The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that you don't ask for $500 back from a guy 7 months later when he probably needs it (and has already spent it). If it was demanded back he'd probably walk. And he'd have every right to.

No way the guy has to give money back if he already received it.I think the solution is pretty simple. You simply credit Team B his ownership fees each year until the winnings are exhausted and reduce the payouts for the following years accordingly. It won't be that much of a difference and the guy still gets "paid" as in free fantasy football for a few years. Nice little bonus when you walk into a draft not paying anything. Maybe having that for a few years makes up for not having a true victory lap for winning the previous year.

It's not that simple. Every way someone has thought of on here has consisted of Team A keeping all the money that he did not legitimately win, while Team B also wins all the money that he did legitimately win...where's all this money coming from? The pockets of every other owner in the league. Why is it on them to lose money? I believe Team A should keep the money and Team B should just take it like a champ...but I don't know the owner for Team B, so...

Considering it's been seven months...Team A should keep the money. Otherwise, a precedent could be started where 16 years of stats could be filed through and corrected.

A few things.First, that's what we've all been saying: "It's not that simple"

Second - not all the options listed have had Team A keeping all the money. It's been suggested that maybe they could split it half and half, depending on the owners and their demeanors. Are they willing to discuss?

And yes, in my opinion, if it's decided that Team B should be compensated then the money comes from the other owners as well. Of course, if the Commish is wealthy, he might just foot the bill to avoid having to ask, but maybe he's not. When you enter into a league then you agree that "The Commish" is representative of you - the owners. If he makes a mistake you take it on the chin with him. If he makes too many then you vote him out and vote a new guy in. You roll with your Commish; unless of course it's a profit league and he's running it to make money.

I know not all leauge will be run like I described above, but many are. If this is the case then the owners help cover any mistakes the Commish makes because he is doing the work they don't have (or want) to do.

 

[Hoss Style]

Just to unpack this for a second, your OP says Team A called out that he did not win (due to the changes post season ending), but Team A (the same team) is now pissed that he did not win?

He won...then it changed...no one checked for months...then he goes back to see his name as the champion again cause it's his first win ever and seeing his fake football team's name on one line of a website no one looks at makes him feel accomplished. Realizes his name is not listed under champion...instead of checking as to why it did not list him as champion he decides to complain that someone made a mistake and to correct it by putting his name under champion again...then people figure out he didn't really win, tell him, and he cries.

Take out all the rhetoric about the guy being a sack of #### because he'd like his name with the other champs listed - and yes, this is what happened.No need to bash a guy who's invested 16 years of his life for wondering why he wasn't listed as the champ. People are different.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I suggest people set their rule on this in advance in this thread, and I would use the suggestion there in a case like this. In fact, here's a potential write up I would give to your league if you'd come to me and asked me to render a decision for your league:

There are some practical considerations that have to be accounted for in a general rule of when game results are considered final. Considerations we'll abide by in coming up with how to deal with this particular situation. We want it to be long enough to catch the usual frequency of stat changes (which is typically Wednesday night, very early Thursday morning from Elias). We also want it to be consistent throughout the season, including for the championship game.

But one of the biggest issues to account for is that playoff games have matchups set based on results of previous games. Changing the seeding of playoffs after games have already been played is obviously something to avoid at all costs. Therefore we have practical limit that the last game of the regular season must be final by the start of NFL games the first playoff week.

So taking those 3 things into account, we essentially have a rule that every game has to be final by the start of NFL games the following week, and the window has to extend to at least past Thursday morning to catch the normal release of stats changes by Elias. Even though the championship game doesn't have a need to end the stat change window with the start of the next week of games, to meet our goal of consistency it will end at the same time.

So applying this reasonable set of conditions to this particular situation... if the stat changes for the championship game came from Elias in a normal time frame and were available by the Thursday after the championship game, they count in the championship game. If not, they don't.

Greg, all good points. In my league (I am commish), I have all games final after our first waiver (this is important because the final scoring change could impact the waiver order so if a change happens after the waiver it does not impact the game. i also think it is better to set the finality of the game because it is important to move on with a victor. Our Waivers run Tuesday and Wednesday so in the playoffs the game are final Tuesday at midnight

 

[Pipes]

There's no way I'm coughing up $500 7 months after the fact because someone didn't notice the NFL changed a stat.Let's use common sense here people. If the change isn't caught by the time the money goes out, it's done and over. If you want to change his draft order the next year, that's fine, but to take money back from him at this point would be ludicrous.

I agree. Plus Team B has been fine for 7 months believing that he didn't win. It's on him too that it wasn't discovered earlier.

Team B, all teams for that matter, needs to take responsibility as well. If I lost a close game you bet I'd be checking the website after the stat corrections came out. He had plenty of time to notice the error and well it sucks for him I don't think it's fair to the rest of the league to credit his entry fees or to charge Team A the $500 difference. It seems like all results should be final once the payouts are made. Stat corrections happen all the time...it's not a new thing so Team B dropped the ball here as well.

 

[FantasyTrader]

Step 1: Approach each owner privately and ask what's more important - the money or being named the champ? This might sort itself out if Team A is most concerned about owing somebody $500 that he doesn't have and Team B is most concerned about getting his name in the record book (he never had the money so he might be okay with forfeiting it).

Step 2: Bring them together, apologize profusely admitting your role in the mix-up. Ask them if they'd be willing to let you off the hook by meeting somewhere in the middle?

Step 3: If they both agree to a compromise, print off two copies of this thread and give it to each of them to read. Then let them hash it out between the two of them to decide what's fair.

Excellent arguments have been made in this thread on both sides and there's no right answer. Maybe if both of them can see this from the other's point of view, Team A will be willing to admit he didn't really win and Team B will be willing to concede the $500 is dead and gone.

---

BTW, if they don't agree to a compromise my decision would be split it straight down the middle. Co-champions and Team A will forfeit his future weekly/yearly winnings until $250 is paid to Team B. I hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Step 1: Approach each owner privately and ask what's more important - the money or being named the champ? This might sort itself out if Team A is most concerned about owing somebody $500 that he doesn't have and Team B is most concerned about getting his name in the record book (he never had the money so he might be okay with forfeiting it). Step 2: Bring them together, apologize profusely admitting your role in the mix-up. Ask them if they'd be willing to let you off the hook by meeting somewhere in the middle? Step 3: If they both agree to a compromise, print off two copies of this thread and give it to each of them to read. Then let them hash it out between the two of them to decide what's fair. Excellent arguments have been made in this thread on both sides and there's no right answer. Maybe if both of them can see this from the other's point of view, Team A will be willing to admit he didn't really win and Team B will be willing to concede the $500 is dead and gone. ---BTW, if they don't agree to a compromise my decision would be split it straight down the middle. Co-champions and Team A will forfeit his future weekly/yearly winnings until $250 is paid to Team B. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Why would you approach them? Team B won. Not everyone gets a trophy.

 

[Pipes]

Step 1: Approach each owner privately and ask what's more important - the money or being named the champ? This might sort itself out if Team A is most concerned about owing somebody $500 that he doesn't have and Team B is most concerned about getting his name in the record book (he never had the money so he might be okay with forfeiting it). Step 2: Bring them together, apologize profusely admitting your role in the mix-up. Ask them if they'd be willing to let you off the hook by meeting somewhere in the middle? Step 3: If they both agree to a compromise, print off two copies of this thread and give it to each of them to read. Then let them hash it out between the two of them to decide what's fair. Excellent arguments have been made in this thread on both sides and there's no right answer. Maybe if both of them can see this from the other's point of view, Team A will be willing to admit he didn't really win and Team B will be willing to concede the $500 is dead and gone. ---BTW, if they don't agree to a compromise my decision would be split it straight down the middle. Co-champions and Team A will forfeit his future weekly/yearly winnings until $250 is paid to Team B. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Why would you approach them? Team B won. Not everyone gets a trophy.

It's not about that. It's all about the $500 that team A technically owes team B because noone noticed (not even team B) that a stat change impacted the results 7 months ago.

 

[Johnny Blood]

Our rules state that the NFL and site are the final arbitrarors of scoring and that is that

That seems a little too simplistic. Look at your own rules:

2. We totally have a rule for this. And it reads exactly how you'd expect. "All points and scoring for each week are determined as final by the NFL and Elias Sports Bureau. (We use NFL.com now so they are automatic adjusted) All protests to any scoring must be submitted no later than Friday prior to the next weeks games."

So you can protest the scoring, which means you're already thinking the site can diverge from the actual score. *AND* if it does, you must protest by a deadline, otherwise the "wrong" score stands. So are you 100% sure the change went through before that stated deadline? If not, the season was over. It was on Thursday---you can see a log? If it didn't change on the site until 12:01 AM on Saturday or later, the season was over.I can think of two independent arguments in A's favor. 1)Statute of limitations in general. There must be a limit, and 7 months is beyond it.2)Is there no limit to what will be redone? Do your final standings determine draft order? So now are you forced to redo the 2012 draft with new draft slots? There has to be limits to what will be undone.These are things to consider, not necessarily my view of the matter.

 

[GregR]

Step 1: Approach each owner privately and ask what's more important - the money or being named the champ? This might sort itself out if Team A is most concerned about owing somebody $500 that he doesn't have and Team B is most concerned about getting his name in the record book (he never had the money so he might be okay with forfeiting it). Step 2: Bring them together, apologize profusely admitting your role in the mix-up. Ask them if they'd be willing to let you off the hook by meeting somewhere in the middle? Step 3: If they both agree to a compromise, print off two copies of this thread and give it to each of them to read. Then let them hash it out between the two of them to decide what's fair. Excellent arguments have been made in this thread on both sides and there's no right answer. Maybe if both of them can see this from the other's point of view, Team A will be willing to admit he didn't really win and Team B will be willing to concede the $500 is dead and gone. ---BTW, if they don't agree to a compromise my decision would be split it straight down the middle. Co-champions and Team A will forfeit his future weekly/yearly winnings until $250 is paid to Team B. I hope it doesn't come to that.

I think this is a pretty good post.This issue isn't about rules. If the OP's statements are accurate, then it is clear cut that by the rules, Team B won. The only issue is that no one bothered to look at the final results until now. If anyone had looked the week of the game, there would not be any argument to be made that B wasn't the champ.So really this is all about dealing with personalities of the two owners. As commish you're in a bad situation with no good answer. You can't force Team A to pay the money back short of taking him to court. You can kick him out of the league if he doesn't, but is that in the best interest of the league or the people?Really the best resolution you can hope for is to have the two owners agree to something they can both live with, if not be happy with. Hopefully one of them will be the bigger man. Hopefully both.If they won't agree on a resolution, I think splitting it down the middle is about the best you can do. And I like FantasyTrader's idea of taking it out of future winnings if need be. If it did come down to that decision and Team A wouldn't agree and decided to walk, I'd say let him at that point, it was his choice rather than being kicked out. There's really no argument he was deserving of the money, it was clearly a mistake. If he's not willing to meet halfway, I'd just let him walk.

 

[ichris]

Once the money is delivered to the winner, it's over. Here's the scoring change rule in my league:

6.3 Appealing a Score: Sometimes errors occur when statistics are reported or compiled. Any owner may appeal the score of any team if he feels that an error has occurred.6.3.1 Points will be calculated out to ONE decimal point. For example, if a player rushes for 9 yards, he will receive 0.6 points. 6.3.2 To appeal a score an owner needs to contact the commissioner with his concerns and should present evidence to support his argument. After all of the evidence has been presented, the commissioner is obliged to make a ruling. All scores not already under appeal become final with the start of Sunday NFL play the following week.6.3.3 It is each owner’s responsibility to contact the commissioner and present an appeal for a score. No other team owner, including the commissioner, is obliged to present an appeal to change another team’s score, even if they are aware of a scoring mistake. Owners are allowed to appeal a score for another owner’s team, but they are not required to do so.6.3.4 If a team score is not under appeal by the start of the following week's Sunday NFL play, it becomes permanent record whether or not it is officially corrected in the longer term (i.e. two weeks or two decades).

 

[Addai's Adidas]

If I thought I won and months later the commish asked for the $ back i would quit. I don't care how long I've been in the league.

I commish a league of 16 that's been going for 15 years. We have the same rule about the correct stats being used. We use MFL and have it correct stats and scores automatically every week. However it is the owners' responsibility to protest, and after the next weeks game starts, results are final.

 

[Tchula]

What would Ruxin do?