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William F. Buckley, Jr., The State Of The Republican Party, And How Trump Came To Pass (1 Viewer)

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Buckley was notorious for running out the cooks, cranks, and others from the R party. We lost him years ago. Now we lose the party that was the vehicle for our conservatism. It's over. Done. Intellectually, that is. 

I just -- with his aging and death died the party, which is seismic in its own way. We've lurched left. Who will be there to stand athwart history?  There will have to be a major adjustment to modern politics. 

The irony: The R's own the state legislatures. People are voting with their feet and fleeing to the exurbs. There is no liberal platform, but how does it equate to politics?

 
'five o'clock shadow' Maddow addressed this quite succinctly Tuesday evening ... opining that the outright repudiation of Cruz, in favor of a 'reality TV star', all but signaled the death knell for that wing of the party as far as National elections go 

 
I think you're right that the absence of any gate-keepers on right is part of what allowed the party to drive itself off the cliff.  

Another really important factor, though, goes back a couple of decades to the end of the cold war.  Anti-communism was the glue that held the Republican party together for most of the 20th century.  That and a general belief in small government.  Well, the Soviet Union isn't around any more, and marginal tax rates aren't at 70%+ any more.  Ever since Reagan, the GOP has been stumbling around in search of a unifying principle.  It never really found one, and now has drifted off into xenophobia and general anti-intellectualism.  

 
'five o'clock shadow' Maddow addressed this quite succinctly Tuesday evening ... opining that the outright repudiation of Cruz, in favor of a 'reality TV star', all but signaled the death knell for that wing of the party as far as National elections go 
Cruz would never have survived an NR vetting. I also agree with IK in that there is no unifying principle that now unites small government believers/folk/volk. But the right was always anti-intellectual, even Buckley was, frankly. This is the Harvard example. We placed common wisdom above technocracy, and common wisdom won for a while, also allowing the technocracy another gasp in its air to breathe within small government and a strong executive branch, especially under Scalia and Rehnquist. 

So that's my opinion. 

So the rise of the individualistic left's principles could be due to the recent peremptory function (okay, it's been there since the nineties) of identity politics. There are no unifications; only coalitions. And the left's will be as fragile as the right. We need a Buckley or Bloom to nuke this. Sadly, they're dead, and their acolytes interested in the culture wars instead of questioning the premises of the culture wars.  

 
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I think you're right that the absence of any gate-keepers on right is part of what allowed the party to drive itself off the cliff.  

Another really important factor, though, goes back a couple of decades to the end of the cold war.  Anti-communism was the glue that held the Republican party together for most of the 20th century.  That and a general belief in small government.  Well, the Soviet Union isn't around any more, and marginal tax rates aren't at 70%+ any more.  Ever since Reagan, the GOP has been stumbling around in search of a unifying principle.  It never really found one, and now has drifted off into xenophobia and general anti-intellectualism.  
The anti-intellectualism was there for much longer (Joe McCarthy scorned "eggheads" in the 1950s), but I think your point is excellent and correct. 

Another point is that even before Buckley's death, both he and George Will and other serious conservative thinkers had been replaced by Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Ann Coulter, etc.

 
The anti-intellectualism was there for much longer (Joe McCarthy scorned "eggheads" in the 1950s), but I think your point is excellent and correct. 

Another point is that even before Buckley's death, both he and George Will and other serious conservative thinkers had been replaced by Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Ann Coulter, etc.
No. Not correct. Not on the serious right. 

Your first point is well-taken, and even though Buckley was an intellectual, he was anti-intellectual.  

 
The anti-intellectualism was there for much longer (Joe McCarthy scorned "eggheads" in the 1950s), but I think your point is excellent and correct. 
I know what you're saying, but I think there's a difference between distrusting technocratic types to "run" things (as in all the standard arguments against economic planning) as opposed to a more general distrust of science (as in ignoring scientific findings regarding global warming).  It's a little subtle maybe, but those aren't the same thing.

 
No. Not correct. Not on the serious right. 

Your first point is well-taken, and even though Buckley was an intellectual, he was anti-intellectual.  
What is the "serious right"?

if we polled those who voted for Donald Trump in the primaries, how many of them would know who William F Buckley was? How many of them would know who George Will is? 

But I guarantee you almost all of them know who Rush Limbaugh is. 

 
What is the "serious right"?

if we polled those who voted for Donald Trump in the primaries, how many of them would know who William F Buckley was? How many of them would know who George Will is? 

But I guarantee you almost all of them know who Rush Limbaugh is. 
The serious right might include a Goldwater Girl, of all things. 

No, the serious right is the educated right; one that has been through college, grad school, and/or the political processes and considers themselves among the right, like I lamentably do. 

 
The rise of Trump came from the failed policies of the Bush and Obama administrations, and had nothing to do with the bull#### being spewed in this thread.

- We had a completely failed war in the middle east that both Bush and Hillary supported

- Obamacare is an absolute failure for the working middle class

- We are on the verge of 20 trillion in debt

- Blue Collar jobs and the middle class have disappeared or are disappearing

- Our infrastructure is crumbling, and frankly embarrassing

The most annoying facet of this election cycle is the "intellectuals' " and the media's failure to realize there are real reasons that Trump has amassed the support that he has.  Instead they use bull#### excuses like the one posed in this thread. 

The government is failing and people are pissed off.  Pull your heads out of your asses.

 
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The serious right might include a Goldwater Girl, of all things. 

No, the serious right is the educated right; one that has been through college, grad school, and/or the political processes and considers themselves among the right, like I lamentably do. 
In the northeast at least, the vast majority of Republicans who are college graduates overwhelmingly voted for Trump. How do you explain that? 

 
In the northeast at least, the vast majority of Republicans who are college graduates overwhelmingly voted for Trump. How do you explain that? 
They see past the rhetoric that gets the lefties butthurt, and realize that we need drastic policy changes to help the middle class.

Hillary is more of the same, Cruz is a nutjob, Bernie is a Socialist...Kasich was the only legit contender.

 
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The rise of Trump came from the failed policies of the Bush and Obama administrations, and had nothing to do with the bull#### being spewed in this thread.

- We had a completely failed war in the middle east that both Bush and Hillary supported

- Obamacare is an absolute failure for the working middle class

- We are on the verge of 20 trillion in debt

- Blue Collar jobs and the middle class have disappeared or are disappearing

- Our infrastructure is crumbling, and frankly embarrassing

The most annoying facet of this election cycle is the "intellectuals' " and the media's failure to realize there are real reasons that Trump has amassed the support that he has.  Instead they use bull#### excuses like the one posed in this thread. 

The government is failing and people are pissed off.  Pull your heads out of your asses.
yes

 
In the northeast at least, the vast majority of Republicans who are college graduates overwhelmingly voted for Trump. How do you explain that? 
One key to understanding this is that the more educated someone is (generally), the less they see the President as a unilaterally-ruling emperor. Voting for Trump simultaneously (a) shakes up the established order (b) without causing real harm, because even a publicly malevolent president has a huge amount of impedance in forwarding their agenda.

Also, from what I can tell, many educated Trump voters see his actions/words throughout primary season as play-acting and not as promises of future policy initiatives. The take goes something like this: "All politicians prevaricate, and thus so is Trump. But I know that going in, and am not actually relying on Trump's force of will to build a wall, stop Muslims, etc. I am voting for him for other reasons altogether."

 
Non-crazy Republicans are going to have to convince a sizable portion of the electorate why exactly small government is better and why a more unregulated and more lightly taxed business sector is in the average Joe's best interest. Because right now we don't trust the American corporation to do the right thing for the nation. The American corporation does the right thing for the American corporation and that means shipping blue collar jobs out whenever it needs to.

Trump ain't getting the blue collar jobs back and neither is Hillary. One of them better get started on developing a working economy that doesn't depend on them.

 
The idea that we're bringing back blue collar manufacturing jobs where one income can support a family of four anywhere in the country is absurd. Maybe that's too narrow an interpretation for "Make America Great Again", but if that's what Trump is promising there's no way he or anyone is delivering that. People longing for those days, whenever they were, are putting their faith in his rhetoric and it's not going to pan out. I guess he will blame other things, and so will his voters. It's head in the sand ideology.

 
I might sit down at some point and come to a conclusion on the question if I feel the time warrants it but for now this GOP is not a political party that I can support or vote for.

 
The idea that we're bringing back blue collar manufacturing jobs where one income can support a family of four anywhere in the country is absurd. Maybe that's too narrow an interpretation for "Make America Great Again", but if that's what Trump is promising there's no way he or anyone is delivering that. People longing for those days, whenever they were, are putting their faith in his rhetoric and it's not going to pan out. I guess he will blame other things, and so will his voters. It's head in the sand ideology.
Incorrect.

There are plenty of tools the government can use to bring back jobs that have been exported/lost.

 
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Here's the answer, but I doubt you like it very much.
Yeah, I know who Norm Ornstein is. He's a Democrat working at AEI. I know AEI intimately, and know that their four political scientists that worked strictly within that dept in the '90s were all Democrats. This is a Vox article by Norm. I don't care about his analysis, frankly. Doesn't seem to make sense.  

 
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The anti-intellectualism was there for much longer (Joe McCarthy scorned "eggheads" in the 1950s), but I think your point is excellent and correct. 

Another point is that even before Buckley's death, both he and George Will and other serious conservative thinkers had been replaced by Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Ann Coulter, etc.
You don't think Mark Levin is a serious Conservative?

 
Yeah, I know who Norm Ornstein is. He's a Democrat working at AEI. I know AEI intimately, and know that their four political scientists that worked strictly within that dept in the '90s were all Democrats. This is a Vox article by Norm. I don't care about his analysis, frankly. Doesn't seem to make sense.  
Did you read it?  It's pretty hard to argue that the Republican / Tea Party attacks on the legitimacy of Obama and the government didn't play at least some role in this mess.  Instead of standing for anything, the party has simply defined itself by standing against the leader of this country for the last eight years.

 
Did you read it?  It's pretty hard to argue that the Republican / Tea Party attacks on the legitimacy of Obama and the government didn't play at least some role in this mess.  Instead of standing for anything, the party has simply defined itself by standing against the leader of this country for the last eight years.
I skimmed it. I know what Ornstein writes. He's a Democrat, through and through. His analysis is colored. I know what Bill Schneider does (another AEI Dem). I know who Ben Wattenberg is (another AEI Dem, but a former sports journo). Positing AEI's political science division as right-wing is simply erroneous. They do op-eds for CNN. 

eta* The broader statements about AEI may be erroneous, but not so at the height of their influence, which was the late '90s-early aughts.  

 
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Did you read it?  It's pretty hard to argue that the Republican / Tea Party attacks on the legitimacy of Obama and the government didn't play at least some role in this mess.  Instead of standing for anything, the party has simply defined itself by standing against the leader of this country for the last eight years.
if only he'd been born here

 
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Incorrect.

There are plenty of tools the government can use to bring back jobs that have been exported/lost.
If for no other reason than continuing advancement in automation, this is pie in the sky thinking. We need to be thinking of something that's never been done before because the next century is going to be completely different from the past. New ideas are not the hallmark of the Republican Party, at least not the one we've seen recently. 

 
I skimmed it. I know what Ornstein writes. He's a Democrat, through and through. His analysis is colored. I know what Bill Schneider does (another AEI Dem). I know who Ben Wattenberg is (another AEI Dem, but a former sports journo). Positing AEI's political science division as right-wing is simply erroneous. They do op-eds for CNN. 
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing about the messenger.  I do think that you're wrong to simply dismiss the message, though, just because it comes from a source that leans left.  That's actually a pretty big part of the problem on both sides right now IMO.  True dialogue and compromise has been set aside for blind partisan BS.

 
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It is really two things that drove Trump's campaign.

1) Being a non-politician. It goes beyond not holding public office before but that he does not talk like a politician. People are so sick of the same ol' same ol' politics and politicians that it is appealing to them.

2) He is non-PC. There are so many people so sick of the PC Gestapo. For him to come out and same some things that not only were not PC but were well beyond is appealing to many people.

To sum it up- Trump is the personification of F U for obviously many angry people out there.

 
The rise of Trump came from the failed policies of the Bush and Obama administrations, and had nothing to do with the bull#### being spewed in this thread.

- We had a completely failed war in the middle east that both Bush and Hillary supported

- Obamacare is an absolute failure for the working middle class

- We are on the verge of 20 trillion in debt

- Blue Collar jobs and the middle class have disappeared or are disappearing

- Our infrastructure is crumbling, and frankly embarrassing

The most annoying facet of this election cycle is the "intellectuals' " and the media's failure to realize there are real reasons that Trump has amassed the support that he has.  Instead they use bull#### excuses like the one posed in this thread. 

The government is failing and people are pissed off.  Pull your heads out of your asses.
Not only did we have a failed war, we continued those policies in Egypt, Libya and Syria...promoted the rise of ISIS and BokomHaram and created the greatest humanitarian crisis in decades.

 
2) He is non-PC. There are so many people so sick of the PC Gestapo. For him to come out and same some things that not only were not PC but were well beyond is appealing to many people.
big difference between being non-PC and being an ###hole.  Trump's the latter.

 
2) He is non-PC. There are so many people so sick of the PC Gestapo. For him to come out and same some things that not only were not PC but were well beyond is appealing to many people.
I think you can limit it to your second PC option. Just think that's his only appeal. He runs against the media with the aid of the media. It's a fourth estate thing, and weirdly effective. 

 
I don't know, I listen to the guy every day on XM radio and I find him to be about the most serious Conservative in the country right now.  The guy recites the Constitution in his sleep, invokes Reagan's name every other sentence, and hates Trump with the heat of a thousand suns. Seems about the most hardcore Conservative in the country right now.

 
I think you can limit it to your second PC option. Just think that's his only appeal. He runs against the media with the aid of the media. It's a fourth estate thing, and weirdly effective. 
I think there are people out there that like him not because he is a non-PC rearend but that he is a businessman who isn't beholden to the normal politics and money that controls everything. At least in the conversations and reading/listening I pick up from people.

 
Focusing on political correctness instead of real problems like costs of education and health care is why the GOP isn't making any inroads with the newest and largest voting demographic in the country. Young people don't care about the size of government, they just want it to work.

 
I think there are people out there that like him not because he is a non-PC rearend but that he is a businessman who isn't beholden to the normal politics and money that controls everything. At least in the conversations and reading/listening I pick up from people.
Perot played on that, too. I'm not beholden to special interests, etc. It's straight out of the Reform Party playbook, which is why the South and especially the Rust Belt buys into it. Like we were talking in another thread; it's an absurd coalition, designed to disrupt and disengage.  

 
Focusing on political correctness instead of real problems like costs of education and health care is why the GOP isn't making any inroads with the newest and largest voting demographic in the country. Young people don't care about the size of government, they just want it to work.
Fukuyama argues this.  

 
Perot played on that, too. I'm not beholden to special interests, etc. It's straight out of the Reform Party playbook, which is why the South and especially the Rust Belt buys into it. Like we were talking in another thread; it's an absurd coalition, designed to disrupt and disengage.  
But unlike when Perot ran the level of "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any longer" is at epic levels and while Perot was offering himself as an alternative, Trump is really that personification of being able to give everyone the middle finger. It is selling.

Trump's inability to articulate a position is actually working for him too. Everything is simplistic to a cartoonish level and that again feeds into the anger. You can't energize angry people with well thought out positions that are complex and need to be explained. You do energize them by telling them "We are going to build a terrific wall and make Mexico pay for it!"

 
Republican party is dead, it is about nationalism now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOyma_8dFm0

Americans must know that we’re putting the American people first again on trade. On trade, on immigration, on foreign policy. The jobs, incomes and security of the American worker will always be my first priority.

No country has ever prospered that failed to put its own interests first. Both our friends and our enemies put their countries above ours and we, while being fair to them, must start doing the same. We will no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of globalism. The nation-state remains the true foundation for happiness and harmony. I am skeptical of international unions that tie us up and bring America down and will never enter.
And under my administration, we will never enter America into any agreement that reduces our ability to control our own affairs.

NAFTA, as an example, has been a total disaster for the United States and has emptied our states — literally emptied our states of our manufacturing and our jobs. And I’ve just gotten to see it. I’ve toured Pennsylvania. I’ve toured New York. I’ve toured so many of the states. They have been cleaned out. Their manufacturing is gone.

Never again, only the reverse — and I have to say this strongly — never again; only the reverse will happen. We will keep our jobs and bring in new ones. There will be consequences for the companies that leave the United States only to exploit it later. They fire the people. They take advantage of the United States. There will be consequences for those companies. Never again.

Under a Trump administration, no American citizen will ever again feel that their needs come second to the citizens of a foreign country.
I will view as president the world through the clear lens of American interests. I will be America’s greatest defender and most loyal champion. We will not apologize for becoming successful again, but will instead embrace the unique heritage that makes us who we are.

The world is most peaceful and most prosperous when America is strongest. America will continue and continue forever to play the role of peacemaker. We will always help save lives and indeed humanity itself, but to play the role, we must make America strong again.

And always — always, always, we must make, and we have to look at it from every angle, and we have no choice, we must make America respected again. We must make America truly wealthy again. And we must — we have to and we will make America great again. And if we do that — and if we do that, perhaps this century can be the most peaceful and prosperous the world has ever, ever known. Thank you very much, everybody. I appreciate it. Thank you.

 
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It drives me mad about Trump. Him.... HIM talking about firing people and ruining peoples lives on business decisions. How many times has he or his companies filed bankruptcy? How do people eat that crap up? His form of populism is depressing.

 
This is an interesting Conversation.  Let me see if I can add to it without taking it off the rails.  :lol:

Here's my take on Trump and the Republican Party.  First off, I don't think Trump is all that Conservative.  I don't care what he says, he is still Pro-Choice at heart.  He may have evolved over the years to be personally against abortion (as have I) but I still think he's ok with a woman's right to choose.  Trump is not religious either.  It's a BS notion.  He's what I call a Northeastern Republican - socially Liberal, fiscally Conservative, and without any of the Evangelical nonsense.  That's why I like him.  Personality aside (which honestly I don't like) Trump's politics match up very well with a lot of people here in the Northeast.  It was no surprise, and very fitting, that he basically clinched the nomination on Acella Tuesday with the Northeast states overwhelmingly voting for him.  Think about this - he didn't lose one single county out of the 153 that voted.

I'm optimistic thatTrump is going to redefine the Republican Party - in a good way.  He is going to marginalize the religious wackos that have held the party hostage for way too long.  He is going to re institute common sense on issues like abortion and trade.  The ugliness of his gaffes has overshadowed all of this unfortunately. 

 
It drives me mad about Trump. Him.... HIM talking about firing people and ruining peoples lives on business decisions. How many times has he or his companies filed bankruptcy? How do people eat that crap up? His form of populism is depressing.
The cult of personality phenomenon is pretty effing scary.  It's totally evident with the Trump supporters -- they literally don't even hear / see the obvious and disturbing negatives with their candidate.

 
This is an interesting Conversation.  Let me see if I can add to it without taking it off the rails.  :lol:

Here's my take on Trump and the Republican Party.  First off, I don't think Trump is all that Conservative.  I don't care what he says, he is still Pro-Choice at heart.  He may have evolved over the years to be personally against abortion (as have I) but I still think he's ok with a woman's right to choose.  Trump is not religious either.  It's a BS notion.  He's what I call a Northeastern Republican - socially Liberal, fiscally Conservative, and without any of the Evangelical nonsense.  That's why I like him.  Personality aside (which honestly I don't like) Trump's politics match up very well with a lot of people here in the Northeast.  It was no surprise, and very fitting, that he basically clinched the nomination on Acella Tuesday with the Northeast states overwhelmingly voting for him.  Think about this - he didn't lose one single county out of the 153 that voted.

I'm optimistic thatTrump is going to redefine the Republican Party - in a good way.  He is going to marginalize the religious wackos that have held the party hostage for way too long.  He is going to re institute common sense on issues like abortion and trade.  The ugliness of his gaffes has overshadowed all of this unfortunately. 
Please unpack your stance that Trump is, in any way at all, fiscally conservative.  I can provide a ton of links from sources on both sides of the isle that show pretty decisively that he's anything but, if you want to read them.

 

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