Worse SIgning : Pujols 2012 or Arod 2008? (1 Viewer)

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Go!

 

[jfranco77]

A-Rod. I honestly believe the Yankees underestimated how fast he would age, based on incorrect information about his PED usage and the skewed aging curves that other players in their late 30s were putting up at the time of his contract.

I don't believe Pujols is a PED guy but there are still some possible questions about his age. Still a better risk than A-Rod though.

Of course, this is just talking in a vacuum, if you're comparing the Angels' ability to absorb $25mil/year at the end of a deal with the Yankees... well, that's silly.

 

[Michael Brown]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.

The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

 

[Da Guru]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

 

[Eephus]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

I think the main thing that sets big market/big budget teams apart is their ability to withstand a bad contract or two. If a small market team is saddled with a bad contract, it affects everything they do. A team like the Yankees can eat a couple of bad contracts without limiting their ability to add talent elsewhere. For the Angels, Pujols has to remain healthy and productive through the expiration of Vernon Wells' horrible contract. If he declines after that, it won't be such a big deal.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

I think the main thing that sets big market/big budget teams apart is their ability to withstand a bad contract or two. If a small market team is saddled with a bad contract, it affects everything they do. A team like the Yankees can eat a couple of bad contracts without limiting their ability to add talent elsewhere. For the Angels, Pujols has to remain healthy and productive through the expiration of Vernon Wells' horrible contract. If he declines after that, it won't be such a big deal.

The Giants proved you can win a World Series with a bad contract on the roster. The real win is for the Angel organization over the next few years as the town forgets about the Dodgers.

 

[Eephus]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

I think the main thing that sets big market/big budget teams apart is their ability to withstand a bad contract or two. If a small market team is saddled with a bad contract, it affects everything they do. A team like the Yankees can eat a couple of bad contracts without limiting their ability to add talent elsewhere. For the Angels, Pujols has to remain healthy and productive through the expiration of Vernon Wells' horrible contract. If he declines after that, it won't be such a big deal.

The Giants proved you can win a World Series with a bad contract on the roster. The real win is for the Angel organization over the next few years as the town forgets about the Dodgers.

The Giants had (and have) two bad contracts. Zito and Rowand totaled 1.4 WAR during the Giants' championship season at the cost of over $30M . They're certainly an above average budget team but don't have the revenue opportunities of NY or LA. Those contracts are limiting SF's ability to buy more players this year.The contrast in Southern California this off-season is striking. There will be freeway billboards with Pujols and Wilson on them, alongside blue signs with Mark Ellis and Aaron Harang.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

This isn't even close - ARod was a juicer and offered nothing defensively. Pujols is not a juicer, perhaps one of the greatest hitters of all time, and won several gold gloves (albeit at an easier position). He has been NL Player of the Year multiple times, multiple Silver Sluggers, voted by his peers as best Major League player several times....complete professional. ARod is very good...Pujols is great. All the naysayers will be proven wrong when Pujols plays out his contract. I wish we could have kept him, but wish him well in the junior circuit.

 

[shadyridr]

This isn't even close - ARod was a juicer and offered nothing defensively. Pujols is not a juicer, perhaps one of the greatest hitters of all time, and won several gold gloves (albeit at an easier position). He has been NL Player of the Year multiple times, multiple Silver Sluggers, voted by his peers as best Major League player several times....complete professional. ARod is very good...Pujols is great. All the naysayers will be proven wrong when Pujols plays out his contract. I wish we could have kept him, but wish him well in the junior circuit.

ARod was just as great as Pujols was in his prime. Lets not be silly here. Yes I realize PEDs played a role probably. Just saying calling ARod only "very good" is a bit misleading. He has just as many accolades as Pujols.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

The real win is for the Angel organization over the next few years as the town forgets about the Dodgers.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

I think the main thing that sets big market/big budget teams apart is their ability to withstand a bad contract or two. If a small market team is saddled with a bad contract, it affects everything they do. A team like the Yankees can eat a couple of bad contracts without limiting their ability to add talent elsewhere. For the Angels, Pujols has to remain healthy and productive through the expiration of Vernon Wells' horrible contract. If he declines after that, it won't be such a big deal.

The Giants proved you can win a World Series with a bad contract on the roster. The real win is for the Angel organization over the next few years as the town forgets about the Dodgers.

The Giants had (and have) two bad contracts. Zito and Rowand totaled 1.4 WAR during the Giants' championship season at the cost of over $30M . They're certainly an above average budget team but don't have the revenue opportunities of NY or LA. Those contracts are limiting SF's ability to buy more players this year.The contrast in Southern California this off-season is striking. There will be freeway billboards with Pujols and Wilson on them, alongside blue signs with Mark Ellis and Aaron Harang.

Let's not overlook Adam Kennedy and Jerry Hairston.

 

[Eephus]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

I think the main thing that sets big market/big budget teams apart is their ability to withstand a bad contract or two. If a small market team is saddled with a bad contract, it affects everything they do. A team like the Yankees can eat a couple of bad contracts without limiting their ability to add talent elsewhere. For the Angels, Pujols has to remain healthy and productive through the expiration of Vernon Wells' horrible contract. If he declines after that, it won't be such a big deal.

The Giants proved you can win a World Series with a bad contract on the roster. The real win is for the Angel organization over the next few years as the town forgets about the Dodgers.

The Giants had (and have) two bad contracts. Zito and Rowand totaled 1.4 WAR during the Giants' championship season at the cost of over $30M . They're certainly an above average budget team but don't have the revenue opportunities of NY or LA. Those contracts are limiting SF's ability to buy more players this year.The contrast in Southern California this off-season is striking. There will be freeway billboards with Pujols and Wilson on them, alongside blue signs with Mark Ellis and Aaron Harang.

Let's not overlook Adam Kennedy and Jerry Hairston.

and Chris Capuano

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

I think the main thing that sets big market/big budget teams apart is their ability to withstand a bad contract or two. If a small market team is saddled with a bad contract, it affects everything they do. A team like the Yankees can eat a couple of bad contracts without limiting their ability to add talent elsewhere. For the Angels, Pujols has to remain healthy and productive through the expiration of Vernon Wells' horrible contract. If he declines after that, it won't be such a big deal.

The Giants proved you can win a World Series with a bad contract on the roster. The real win is for the Angel organization over the next few years as the town forgets about the Dodgers.

The Giants had (and have) two bad contracts. Zito and Rowand totaled 1.4 WAR during the Giants' championship season at the cost of over $30M . They're certainly an above average budget team but don't have the revenue opportunities of NY or LA. Those contracts are limiting SF's ability to buy more players this year.The contrast in Southern California this off-season is striking. There will be freeway billboards with Pujols and Wilson on them, alongside blue signs with Mark Ellis and Aaron Harang.

Let's not overlook Adam Kennedy and Jerry Hairston.

and Chris Capuano

Exactly.

 

[Smack Tripper]

This isn't even close - ARod was a juicer and offered nothing defensively. Pujols is not a juicer, perhaps one of the greatest hitters of all time, and won several gold gloves (albeit at an easier position). He has been NL Player of the Year multiple times, multiple Silver Sluggers, voted by his peers as best Major League player several times....complete professional. ARod is very good...Pujols is great. All the naysayers will be proven wrong when Pujols plays out his contract. I wish we could have kept him, but wish him well in the junior circuit.

Hmmm....not yet he isn't.

But there isn't much reason for anyone in St. Louis to protect him now if he ever was.

I would imagine something like this might just come to light.

Less of a knock on Albert but more of a nod to history. Its hard to think in an era of PEDs when lots of numbers were threatened or fell, that we had one white knight who was putting digits up there with any of the abusers.

I like Albert, I hope not, but I would be careful with blanket defense of him.

 

[Smack Tripper]

And as for the question, A-Rod is a worse signing, but not as bad or by as wide a margin as you might suspect.

A-Rod didn't look as bad at the time as now, I think most assumed 4 good years out of him and then a pretty steep slide. The Yanks got basically one good year, one ok year, and a major decline last year. 7 years to go, good god.

As for Pujols, its the same situation age wise as A-Rod, but with a less athletic guy overall. Pujols will be DHing full time within 3 years I think. We also, since PEDs and Greenies have been restricted, seen a correction in the "late 30's superstar" phenomenon we had with Clemens and Bonds, et al. Its hard to keep the pedal on the floor without the gas in the tank. The Yanks, maybe in a completely oblivious, pollyanna way, had reason to be believe we were looking at a new paradigm, but the Angels have the benefit of hindsight and should have seen how bad things will be down the line with him.

Lastly, at least the A-Rod year didn't come off a decline year, as Pujols did. I don't think he's done, but Super Pujols is probably gone and not coming back. He's coming to a much more competitive league, he just signed on for 18 games a year in Safeco and in Oakland as opposed to Wrigley, Houston and Cincy as places to swing the bat. No more Pittsburgh pitching to beat up on.

A-Rod is bad because we know its bad, but 3 years down the line will tell the tale more.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

Beyond all of the good posts already given about athletic ability, PED's, etc. there's the fact that Arod cares entirely too much about what people think of him. Arod is weak. Pujols exudes confidence which is why he will walk into the Angels' dugout and immediately become the team leader.

 

[Funkley]

Other: Joe Mauer

 

[Zegras11]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

And then he'll be shooting for HR record and value of everything involved from team value, tv value, and playoff receipts value will make it a decent deal.

 

[djmich]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

And then he'll be shooting for HR record and value of everything involved from team value, tv value, and playoff receipts value will make it a decent deal.

This. ARod's deal is worse, but the significance of this deal in terms of franchise value for the Angles makes the comparison irrelevant, barring a Pujols disaster its a good deal for them.

 

[Gianni Verscotchie]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

And then he'll be shooting for HR record and value of everything involved from team value, tv value, and playoff receipts value will make it a decent deal.

This. ARod's deal is worse, but the significance of this deal in terms of franchise value for the Angles makes the comparison irrelevant, barring a Pujols disaster its a good deal for them.

Arod's deal is better. He carried the team on his back to a championship in 2009. That's the goal isnt it?

 

[shadyridr]

This shouldn't be close. A-Rod's contract was already worse even before he started breaking down, simply because of the fact that nobody else in baseball was going to come close to $300 million for A-Rod. Nobody.The Angels HAD to go to this level to get him. Whether it was a smart move in the long run or not, they at least outbid someone. The Yankees only outbid themselves.

Never understood why the Yankees went so high with A-Rod when there was no interest in him at anywhere near that price.The Angels will probably be very happy the first 3-4 years, then the buyers remorse will setin when they are saddled with a huge contract and an aging player.

And then he'll be shooting for HR record and value of everything involved from team value, tv value, and playoff receipts value will make it a decent deal.

This. ARod's deal is worse, but the significance of this deal in terms of franchise value for the Angles makes the comparison irrelevant, barring a Pujols disaster its a good deal for them.

Arod's deal is better. He carried the team on his back to a championship in 2009. That's the goal isnt it?

pujold signed his deal yesterday

 

[curta269]

ARod. But, a 10 year contract for an athlete is a very bad contract for the ownership, in my opinion.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

ARod. But, a 10 year contract for an athlete is a very bad contract for the ownership, in my opinion.

Angels signed a $3 billion contract with Fox today.

 

[curta269]

I am sure the Yankees will make more than that on their tv contract over the same time period.

 

[curta269]

ARod. But, a 10 year contract for an athlete is a very bad contract for the ownership, in my opinion.

Angels signed a $3 billion contract with Fox today.

If you were a professional sports owner, would you give anyone a contract for this long?

 

[Eephus]

ARod. But, a 10 year contract for an athlete is a very bad contract for the ownership, in my opinion.

Angels signed a $3 billion contract with Fox today.

If you were a professional sports owner, would you give anyone a contract for this long?

if you were a professional sports owner, would you want to compete for the best players?

 

[curta269]

ARod. But, a 10 year contract for an athlete is a very bad contract for the ownership, in my opinion.

Angels signed a $3 billion contract with Fox today.

If you were a professional sports owner, would you give anyone a contract for this long?

if you were a professional sports owner, would you want to compete for the best players?

Yes, but I wouldnt want to use 25 percent of my payroll on a player who has only 3-5 years of his prime left. I then have 5-7 years left of an albatross of a contract that I can't get out of. I would rather compete for a title every year. Smart business people are not short-sighted.

 

[Eephus]

ARod. But, a 10 year contract for an athlete is a very bad contract for the ownership, in my opinion.

Angels signed a $3 billion contract with Fox today.

If you were a professional sports owner, would you give anyone a contract for this long?

if you were a professional sports owner, would you want to compete for the best players?

Yes, but I wouldnt want to use 25 percent of my payroll on a player who has only 3-5 years of his prime left. I then have 5-7 years left of an albatross of a contract that I can't get out of. I would rather compete for a title every year. Smart business people are not short-sighted.

For a big budget team, an Arod/Pujols contract is more like 12.5% of the total payroll today. If you project 5% salary inflation over a ten year span, your now over-the-hill superstar will account for only 8%.That's the market, whether it's fair or whether you like it or not. It's likely somebody offered Pujols a shorter contract at a higher average salary, but everybody is taking the security of the longest deal they can get.

 

[curta269]

I agree. I don't really blame him leaving. I'm sure he is doing what is best for him and his family.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I am sure the Yankees will make more than that on their tv contract over the same time period.

And?

 

[curta269]

They can cover bad contracts with all the extra cash from their tv deal.

 

[djmich]

They can cover bad contracts with all the extra cash from their tv deal.

Still not sure what the point is. The tv deal justifies the bad contract?The Yankees don't need ARod to get a great tv deal or draw a full house every night or sell the #### out of hats and shirts.

 

[Smack Tripper]

They can cover bad contracts with all the extra cash from their tv deal.

Still not sure what the point is. The tv deal justifies the bad contract?The Yankees don't need ARod to get a great tv deal or draw a full house every night or sell the #### out of hats and shirts.

Im not so sure they're mutually exclusive(arod and eyeballs). That said,'i'm not disputing that it was a blatant overpay during a brief window where Hank Steinbrenner had stroke and this choice seems like it cost him power for the colder, more clinical, Hal. But I think there was a slightly misguided wisdom that stars fed the beast of the yes ratings. I think they've gotten way from this but it was prevalent at the time. Anyway, I don't think it justifies this deal but makes it more understandable. Attendance DID go to a new level with arod, for all his nonsense. Arod was too much money for too many years with no other suitors, particularly in light of th way he went out the door. But at the time,'arod was a year off an MVP and gearing up for a presumably clean campaign at the bonds record

 

[[icon]]

. Pujols is not a juicer,

Whoa whoa whoa... as stated before, it MIGHT be a little early for absolutes on this.

And then he'll be shooting for HR record and value of everything involved from team value, tv value, and playoff receipts value will make it a decent deal.

I'm not so sure Pujols will get that HR Record...even in this 10 year window. OPS has dropped 100 points each of the last 3 years... I could easily see him averaging 35HR over the next 2-4 years then struggling to hit 25-30 after that point.

 

[Eephus]

. Pujols is not a juicer,

Whoa whoa whoa... as stated before, it MIGHT be a little early for absolutes on this.

And then he'll be shooting for HR record and value of everything involved from team value, tv value, and playoff receipts value will make it a decent deal.

I'm not so sure Pujols will get that HR Record...even in this 10 year window. OPS has dropped 100 points each of the last 3 years... I could easily see him averaging 35HR over the next 2-4 years then struggling to hit 25-30 after that point.

Pujols has a 26% chance of reaching 763 using Bill James' Favorite Toy calculator

 

[curta269]

They can cover bad contracts with all the extra cash from their tv deal.

Still not sure what the point is. The tv deal justifies the bad contract?The Yankees don't need ARod to get a great tv deal or draw a full house every night or sell the #### out of hats and shirts.

They Yankees have a lot more revenue than the Cardinals do. If they overpay for a player who doesn't produce, it is easier for them to still compete because they have more money to spend. Have you ever taken an economics or business class??

 

[texasheat]

A-rod was worse, Pujols came with a heart.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I'm leaning Pujols right now because at least A-Rod played a premium position.