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WR Brandin Cooks, BUF (10 Viewers)

Saints are not helped by this imo. Bottom 1st round pick is chancy, 3rd rounder is even chancier, plus they lose a 4th just a few picks down. This team has always driven through the offense but they have proven time and again they do not know how to pick defense.

I'm not really sure what happened with the chemistry but I sense this is a vast overreaction by the front office and they way overthinked and outthinked themselves on this one. 

 
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As much as I like Sproutdaddy I'm going with BB on this one. I mean it's close because Sprout as been so dead on in regards to this situation the last 4 months but BB seems a little more proven.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
What is this BS about Brady doesn't throw a good deep ball?

http://nesn.com/2016/10/tom-bradys-deep-ball-numbers-will-make-your-jaw-drop-to-the-floor/
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Ummm, did everyone skip over this part? "Sure, the sample size for 2016 is much smaller than the other three seasons. He attempted 114 deep passes in 2013, 97 in 2014 and 100 last season compared to just 13 this year."

How did that article even get written? That's not a real sample size.

Casting Couch said:
Chad Johnson was a shell of his former self when he came to New England at 33 years old.

Brandin Cooks is 23 and still an ascending talent.  I don't see the comparison.
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33 for a WR is not exactly "shell of former self" just yet. It's obviously not their prime, but guys can still get it done at that age. We're also forgetting Brandon Lloyd who was like 30 or 31 when he came to New England. IIRC, his YPR was under 13.

Regardless, Brady and Brees are both very good, but very different passers. Cooks' numbers will look quite different in 2017. I'm betting they'll be worse.

 
Lol not a big enough sample size?

He throws 6-700 balls a season, has no deep threat but still throws the ball deep a 6th of the time.

The two times hes had a deep threat on roster he smokes the league in deep throw percentage. Its kinda like the personel dictates the type of targets.

Was the best passer, including deep last year, Hogan led the league in yards per catch.

PFF article on Brady last year, highest rated season ever

 
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FF Ninja said:
Ummm, did everyone skip over this part? "Sure, the sample size for 2016 is much smaller than the other three seasons. He attempted 114 deep passes in 2013, 97 in 2014 and 100 last season compared to just 13 this year."

How did that article even get written? That's not a real sample size.

33 for a WR is not exactly "shell of former self" just yet. It's obviously not their prime, but guys can still get it done at that age. We're also forgetting Brandon Lloyd who was like 30 or 31 when he came to New England. IIRC, his YPR was under 13.

Regardless, Brady and Brees are both very good, but very different passers. Cooks' numbers will look quite different in 2017. I'm betting they'll be worse.
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IIRC the gradual decline of the WR is between 28-34 with the step drop taking place at age 35.

Tex

 
BigTex said:
IIRC the gradual decline of the WR is between 28-34 with the step drop taking place at age 35.

Tex
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Yeah, I think Adam Harstad had an article that concluded WRs actually go strong through age 31 (no notable drop off), 32 is the start of a gradual decline, and 35 is when most people not named Steve Smith hit the steep drop.

 
I own Cooks in two leagues and I can honestly see this going either way. I can buy into the "too many mouths to feed" argument pretty easily, but I also see the logic in those saying that the Pats paid a lot for him and he could fit their system perfectly so he just may have his biggest season to date.

I'm truly stumped on how the trade effects his value, and if everyone was being completely honest with themselves they'd probably admit the same.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I own Cooks in two leagues and I can honestly see this going either way. I can buy into the "too many mouths to feed" argument pretty easily, but I also see the logic in those saying that the Pats paid a lot for him and he could fit their system perfectly so he just may have his biggest season to date.

I'm truly stumped on how the trade effects his value, and if everyone was being completely honest with themselves they'd probably admit the same.
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This.

I think the smart move is to hold. If you have Cooks, you have to give it a full season to see what's up. If you don't have him, you need to wait to see what's up. It's doubtful that a Cooks owner (I am one) would trade him for anything less than his Brees value +...which makes him a top 10 WR.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I own Cooks in two leagues and I can honestly see this going either way. I can buy into the "too many mouths to feed" argument pretty easily, but I also see the logic in those saying that the Pats paid a lot for him and he could fit their system perfectly so he just may have his biggest season to date.

I'm truly stumped on how the trade effects his value, and if everyone was being completely honest with themselves they'd probably admit the same.
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You are dead on...first of all, the kid is a legit talent...I think we can all agree on that...this is not a Patriot "out-of-nowhere" player like an Edelman or Hogan or going back further Givens...the first thing (and really the only thing that matters) is can he figure out the Patriot system and earn Brady's trust...if that does not happen there is bust potential here...there have been a ton of WRs (both veteran and rookie) who have failed with the Pats due to this...it doesn't matter how talented you are you won't overcome that...on the flip-side if this kid makes a seamless transition he could be lights out...if he is the real deal BB will use him to his fullest just like he has with Moss or Gronk (I use them because they are "legit" talents) or Dillon at RB...I really can't think of a talented Patriot player on offense that was under-utilized during the BB era...if I was a Cooks owner (I am not) I would simply sit tight and let this play out as the upside is very high...at the very least I would wait till camp and monitor the local beat guys about how Brady and Cooks are clicking...  

 
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TwinTurbo said:
Did Brees have issues with Cooks? 
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Yes. Brees and Payton had issues with Cooks. They also have issues with Ingram and they had issues with Jimmy Graham. I suspect Michael Thomas will be next. The way he has been kicking Cooks in the nuts on the way out hints at some emotional issues and that he won't be happy unless he's getting peppered with targets. If Brees spreads the ball around "and" they go 7-9 again I suspect Thomas will speak up. They have a losing record over the last 5 years with an elite QB. That's hard to do actually.

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
I own Cooks in two leagues and I can honestly see this going either way. I can buy into the "too many mouths to feed" argument pretty easily, but I also see the logic in those saying that the Pats paid a lot for him and he could fit their system perfectly so he just may have his biggest season to date.

I'm truly stumped on how the trade effects his value, and if everyone was being completely honest with themselves they'd probably admit the same.
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I'm not sure about Cooks (for reasons that have been well-stated by many) but I have to think (barring injury to Cooks) Edelman's value takes a dive.

 
Milkman said:
Yes. Brees and Payton had issues with Cooks. They also have issues with Ingram and they had issues with Jimmy Graham. I suspect Michael Thomas will be next. The way he has been kicking Cooks in the nuts on the way out hints at some emotional issues and that he won't be happy unless he's getting peppered with targets. If Brees spreads the ball around "and" they go 7-9 again I suspect Thomas will speak up. They have a losing record over the last 5 years with an elite QB. That's hard to do actually.
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You have no idea what you're talking about.  This was all on Cooks.   The deal with JG was he didn't want to play after a shoulder injury when he was cleared by the doctors.  He got paid and didn't want play.  

 
SproutDaddy said:
You have no idea what you're talking about.  This was all on Cooks.   The deal with JG was he didn't want to play after a shoulder injury when he was cleared by the doctors.  He got paid and didn't want play.  
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LOL yeah it's all on the guy putting up WR1 numbers on WR3 targets.

There's a clear pattern and it starts with Payton and ends with his boy Brees. Lets see if NO averages 317 yards passing a game again this year without Cooks. If they do then they were right to try and teach their young star WR a lesson last year and when it blew up in their face they were right to trade him. If they take a step back offensively then Payton's ego caused them to get worse.

 
Yak yak yak.  They were never going to pay him what he wants.  Not their style.  WRs and RBs grow on trees in NOLA.  Defensive players not so much.

 
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Maybe that's why with a top 3 QB they are below .500 over the last 5 years........ :shrug:

 
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My contention is they are not better on offense without Cooks. If they are then I'm sure they'll prove it this year.

 
Milkman said:
Let's see if NO averages 317 yards passing a game again this year without Cooks.
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Brees averaged 317 yards passing a game for years long before Cooks ever showed up. If Bree's doesn't this do as well this year, it will have more to do with Brees getting older than it has to do with Cooks not being there. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
Brees averaged 317 yards passing a game for years long before Cooks ever showed up. If Bree's doesn't this do as well this year, it will have more to do with Brees getting older than it has to do with Cooks not being there. 
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Brees had arguably his best season ever last year. Sorry but even though he hasn't lost much, 2016 Brees is not better than 2011 Brees. The stats seem to suggest he was nearly as good. Cooks had a lot to do with that last year imo. Michael Thomas is the man there now. As far as talent goes that's a significant drop. Most people disagree on here but if Brees stats drop significantly you can interpret that how you want. I'll blame it on losing Cooks.

 
SproutDaddy said:
Cooks to Thomas isn't a significant drop in talent.  They are completely different receivers. 
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Then there shouldn't be a drop in production. Michael Thomas should destroy whoever the defense puts on him and Brees will lead the league in passing again.

 
That's a ridiculous assumption no matter how you slice it.  Cooks and Thomas > Thomas and Snead.  How do you know father time won't catch up to Brees this year.

 
Milkman said:
Then there shouldn't be a drop in production. Michael Thomas should destroy whoever the defense puts on him and Brees will lead the league in passing again.
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I think Michael Thomas is in for a surprise.  He never saw any double coverage with Cooks on the field.  

I am glad to see Cooks out of NO.  They never used him to his full potential.  Sending him on fly patterns on every play made no sense.   I would like to have seen them use him with more screens and slants and see what he could do with the ball after the catch.  

I suppose Ginn is gonna stretch the field every play now opening things up for Thomas?  LOL.   

 
Thomas most definitely saw double coverage over the course of the season.  Saying he didn't is completely untrue.  

 
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Since coming to NOS, Brees has had 10 different WR, 5 TE, and 3 RB get 500 receiving yards in a season. Suffice it to say, the Saints have made the offense work with a wide range of receiving options.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Since coming to NOS, Brees has had 10 different WR, 5 TE, and 3 RB get 500 receiving yards in a season. Suffice it to say, the Saints have made the offense work with a wide range of receiving options.
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Brees owner... and I expect the offense to be prolific but I'd rather have Cooks in the mix than not.  Cooks >>> Ginn

But, for whatever the reason, that isn't the case.  So why did the Saints trade Cooks?  Heck, why did they trade Jimmy Graham?  I decided to google the latter and read perhaps the dumbest article in the history of Sports reporting... It goes on to cite the mid 90's Saints and discusses a team that got "old"...  It continues to say the Saints are rebuilding a deteriorating roster and "preventing a downward spiral from getting out of control"... What?

OK; Let's try another search.  The next article presents a different argument.  It suggests a (long term?) transition away from a pass oriented offense built around Brees to a more run dependent attack (They did trade for a center after all)...  So, the trade was all about less dependency on Brees and more leaning on the run game?

Not sure I buy that either.  I had thought the reasons were salary cap related.  Although, that relief was more in the long run... This was a minimal amount of cap space...

To think this move came just one season after signing Graham to a new deal is concerning.    We should have a poll on the wackiest Saints move of all time.  Trading an entire draft for Ricky Williams?  Trading Reggie Bush, Jimmy Graham, Brandin Cooks?

So the question remains "is Cooks the bad apple"?  Is the Saints frot office credible?  It's too easy to throw dirt on a guy when he leaves town.  Does anybody have anything concrete?

 
I don't have an article to source, but as a follower of Saints' boards there were multiple reports that Jimmy fell out of good graces with the whole coaching staff.  He had a shoulder injury that season, and if memory serves me correctly, he missed multiple games.  Once he was cleared to play, he reportedly didn't want to go back onto the field which led to numerous arguments between himself and coaches.  I think that's why they're very apprehensive about paying people like Cooks who seems to have the diva mentality.  

I'm pretty sure Bush wasn't traded.  I think he just signed with Miami.  I could be wrong.

 
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Bush was traded for a safety and a late round pick swap, but more importantly got rid of his 16M salary for a part time, basically 3rd down RB in NO's scheme. There were rumblings at the time that Bush was upset he was never given a more featured full-time RB role in NO.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Since coming to NOS, Brees has had 10 different WR, 5 TE, and 3 RB get 500 receiving yards in a season. Suffice it to say, the Saints have made the offense work with a wide range of receiving options.
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Including such notables as Devery Henderson, David Patten, Billy Miller, and Robert Meachem.

 
Boston said:
I really can't think of a talented Patriot player on offense that was under-utilized during the BB era
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Considering what he accomplished in San Diego, Woodhead was underutilized in New England. Considering that Blount had 299/1181/18 rushing last year, but never had more than 165 carries in his other seasons in NE, one could argue he was underutilized. No one else comes immediately to mind.

But those examples kind of highlight the fact that 'underutilized' could be misapplied here. Did the New England offense accomplish its objectives in those seasons with Woodhead and Blount? If so, it is arguably fair to characterize their 'underutilization' as instead an example of "too many mouths to feed." Which may directly apply to Cooks in NE.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Considering what he accomplished in San Diego, Woodhead was underutilized in New England. Considering that Blount had 299/1181/18 rushing last year, but never had more than 165 carries in his other seasons in NE, one could argue he was underutilized. No one else comes immediately to mind.

But those examples kind of highlight the fact that 'underutilized' could be misapplied here. Did the New England offense accomplish its objectives in those seasons with Woodhead and Blount? If so, it is arguably fair to characterize their 'underutilization' as instead an example of "too many mouths to feed." Which may directly apply to Cooks in NE.
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Or maybe there weren't many mouths to feed in San Diego...and the role he played in New England has never really had anyone put up big numbers whether it's been Faulk, Woodhead, Vereen and now White...also, while I really like Woodhead I don't consider him to be a big-time talent like Cooks...

 
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Boston said:
Or maybe there weren't many mouths to feed in San Diego...and the role he played in New England has never really had anyone put up big numbers whether it's been Faulk, Woodhead, Vereen and now White...also, while I really like Woodhead I don't consider him to be a big-time talent like Cooks...
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So you are agreeing with me that there was too much competition for opportunities for Woodhead to be utilized more in NE. :hifive:  

 
It's certainly in Cooks range of outcomes to get fewer targets this year in NE than he got in NO but I see a scenario where he pushes Edelman out if the way this year and has 130+ targets. A scenario where he is used as an all purpose weapon all over the field. 2018 is all Cooks though assuming he can master the playbook and Edelman is almost certainly gone.

Cooks>>>Edelman

The only thing Edelman has going in this situation is his chemistry with Brady. Cooks developes that chemistry and poof bye bye Edelman. 

 
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Anarchy99 said:
Since coming to NOS, Brees has had 10 different WR, 5 TE, and 3 RB get 500 receiving yards in a season. Suffice it to say, the Saints have made the offense work with a wide range of receiving options.
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I'm sure I could pull up other top 5 QBs who did similar things are even better. Brees is good but you guys are making it seem like you can just throw anyone in that offense and it will be ok. They got rid of Graham and thought that Fleener would be better that hasn't worked out too well at this point. That rooster that is crowing early in the morning is getting louder and louder and the fingers will be pointing in many different directions. Get ready for the chaos to begin. 

Tex

 
BigTex said:
I'm sure I could pull up other top 5 QBs who did similar things are even better. Brees is good but you guys are making it seem like you can just throw anyone in that offense and it will be ok. They got rid of Graham and thought that Fleener would be better that hasn't worked out too well at this point. That rooster that is crowing early in the morning is getting louder and louder and the fingers will be pointing in many different directions. Get ready for the chaos to begin. 

Tex
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The last year Graham was there, Brees put up 4952/33. The first year without Graham, he posted 4870/32. Last year, he put up 5208/37. I'm having a hard time seeing the collapse of the offense without Graham.

You are essentially only supporting what I am saying. Bress' numbers have been remarkably consistent even though guys have come and gone. Some years there is a productive tight end. Maybe another year they use the backs more out of the backfield. Some years they rely more on receivers. The point being, it doesn't really matter who they put on the field. The total numbers will remain pretty close to the same. Brees has averaged 4887/35 across his 11 years with the Saints. I would be extremely surprised if that changed much or if there will be any "chaos" because they don't have Cooks.

 
Anarchy99 said:
The last year Graham was there, Brees put up 4952/33. The first year without Graham, he posted 4870/32. Last year, he put up 5208/37. I'm having a hard time seeing the collapse of the offense without Graham.

You are essentially only supporting what I am saying. Bress' numbers have been remarkably consistent even though guys have come and gone. Some years there is a productive tight end. Maybe another year they use the backs more out of the backfield. Some years they rely more on receivers. The point being, it doesn't really matter who they put on the field. The total numbers will remain pretty close to the same. Brees has averaged 4887/35 across his 11 years with the Saints. I would be extremely surprised if that changed much or if there will be any "chaos" because they don't have Cooks.
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That's not even close to what I was saying really but the wheels will fall off this wagon when you think they can just throw anyone into a system. Lol, man the clock is ticking I'm not arguing Brees' accomplishments on the field. We all know his numbers, this is about the future I'm curious as to what they will do in this draft. IMHO, Cooks in NE>>>>>Cooks in NO but that's just me. What good will it do the organization while he's putting up these numbers and your still losing? What would you say the problem is? Brees has always been at least 3rd fiddle to Manning and Brady (accomplishment wise) and now the "Young Guns" are getting more experience and much wiser (Luck, Newton, Carr, Mariota, Winston, Prescott, etc....) and they are catching up fast.

Brees is good, never said he wasn't but the theory of just plugging anyone in is crazy. Trading away good talent will catch up if you don't replace that with equal or greater talent.

Tex

 
Anarchy99 said:
The last year Graham was there, Brees put up 4952/33. The first year without Graham, he posted 4870/32. Last year, he put up 5208/37. I'm having a hard time seeing the collapse of the offense without Graham.

You are essentially only supporting what I am saying. Bress' numbers have been remarkably consistent even though guys have come and gone. Some years there is a productive tight end. Maybe another year they use the backs more out of the backfield. Some years they rely more on receivers. The point being, it doesn't really matter who they put on the field. The total numbers will remain pretty close to the same. Brees has averaged 4887/35 across his 11 years with the Saints. I would be extremely surprised if that changed much or if there will be any "chaos" because they don't have Cooks.
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Bree's will keep putting up stats, and the team will keep being mediocre.

 
Noticed an interesting stat just now. Saints ranked #1 in the NFL with 3,559 WR receiving yards. The Patriots ranked 23rd with 2,475 WR receiving yards. The TDs were 24 to 16. 

 
I was looking at a couple mocks recently and I am seeing a lot of them have the Saints drafting a WR in the first round, which to me would be a real head scratchier considering they just traded away Cooks. 

 
Biabreakable said:
I was looking at a couple mocks recently and I am seeing a lot of them have the Saints drafting a WR in the first round, which to me would be a real head scratchier considering they just traded away Cooks. 
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Why is that a head scratcher?  They need a WR, just not one who is high maintenance.

 
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