WR Josh Gordon, KC (7 Viewers)

[massraider]

don't these guys utilize techniques to lower their test results?

i thought the low thresholds were taking this into account.

i also always assumed positive tests came from sloppiness or laziness on the players part.

Most of the ways to get past a test if you've smoked recently are pure myth. The only way most people pass is by using clean urine and faking the test. All the pot detox solutions don't really work.

thanks, i am obviously ignorant on the subject of passing drug tests other than not doing drugs.

Not as ignorant as the person you are quoting. There are many, many solutions to pass a piss test. Walk into any GNC, tell the guy you have a test, and you'll get handed a 'cleanser'. The fact that they are all a myth will come as quite a surprise to everyone who has ever taken one and passed the test. Myself included.

well, for discussion's sake, if you are a believer in the effectiveness of 'cleansers' and say the NFL is as well, that would put quite a damper on the second hand smoke AND the threshold is too low arguments, wouldn't it?

It sure would.

And really, anyone who has ever smoked pot and had to take a test will say the same thing I have.

 

[Proust Loves Cake]

I say he wins the appeal outright and suits up Week 1

All the beautiful hope and optimism building to its final crescendo.

 

[Clifford]

I have until 6:20 local time to declare him as my keeper over Pitta. Seriously doubt we hear anything today. (I got a 24-hour extension from the commish for those following along. And no matter what you say, I know you all care deeply about my fantasy team and its success this season).

 

[Griffindor]

It's safe to say Blackmon is in a whole nother arena of bad that no lawyer of Suh's caliber would touch with a ten foot pole.

This isn't how lawyers decide whether to take cases.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I have until 6:20 local time to declare him as my keeper over Pitta. Seriously doubt we hear anything today. (I got a 24-hour extension from the commish for those following along. And no matter what you say, I know you all care deeply about my fantasy team and its success this season).

In the same boat but vs. DeSean Jackson. Due at 5:00 EST. I think I'm keeping Gordon.

 

[Clifford]

I would go with DeSean if no news. Pitta is falling so late in drafts there's almost no sense in keeping him.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I have until 6:20 local time to declare him as my keeper over Pitta. Seriously doubt we hear anything today. (I got a 24-hour extension from the commish for those following along. And no matter what you say, I know you all care deeply about my fantasy team and its success this season).

In the same boat but vs. DeSean Jackson. Due at 5:00 EST. I think I'm keeping Gordon.

I dont have Gordon but our keeper deadline if 5pm EST as well, would cost a 7th rounder to keep him. Needless to say I hope no decision until after 5pm.

 

[zandbak]

My inside sources tell me we'll have a decision before 5PM, and it will be favorable for Gordon. NFL just can't gain any traction with their arguments.

 

[Childress]

My inside sources tell me we'll have a decision before 5PM, and it will be favorable for Gordon. NFL just can't gain any traction with their arguments.

I'm going to allow myself to believe this 100%, even though I doubt a decision today and a reduction #freejoshgordon

 

[Peyton Marino]

this thread is the GOAT

 

[donkshow]

My inside sources tell me we'll have a decision before 5PM, and it will be favorable for Gordon. NFL just can't gain any traction with their arguments.

I'm going to allow myself to believe this 100%, even though I doubt a decision today and a reduction #freejoshgordon

Agreed.

 

[DaveGrumbles]

Served as a juror on a murder trial a couple summers back..it took three full days. But I digress...any info or rule that states NFL has to decide on this before start of season or within a specified time period following an appeal?

 

[Thunderlips]

This suspense is killing me!.......I hope it will last.

Took him in the 10th of a 12 team redraft......

If the decision comes down today......where do people rank him in redraft if:

He gets 0 games?

He gets 8 games?

 

[Ojaays]

My inside sources tell me we'll have a decision before 5PM, and it will be favorable for Gordon. NFL just can't gain any traction with their arguments.

That sucks, I was fully expecting to get Gordon in the 4th, now I'm going to have to say goodbye to him as he will be long gone in the first.

 

[One]

My inside sources tell me we'll have a decision before 5PM, and it will be favorable for Gordon. NFL just can't gain any traction with their arguments.

I'm going to allow myself to believe this 100%, even though I doubt a decision today and a reduction #freejoshgordon

Agreed.

I'm pretty selective of what I believe. Since this is what I want to hear, I'll roll with it.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I have until 6:20 local time to declare him as my keeper over Pitta. Seriously doubt we hear anything today. (I got a 24-hour extension from the commish for those following along. And no matter what you say, I know you all care deeply about my fantasy team and its success this season).

Good luck, we're all pulling for you.

I'm fairly confident Gordon's appeal will be denied, but I'd probably keep him over Pitta anyway. What good does keeping Pitta really do for you? might as well swing for the fences.

 

[BoltNlava]

My inside sources tell me we'll have a decision before 5PM, and it will be favorable for Gordon. NFL just can't gain any traction with their arguments.

Was Pee Wee Herman and an old lady in a scarf around her head there? Big clear glass ball on a table close by?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Browns' beat MKC: no ruling expected today.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I hope along with their decision they also tell us why it took so ####### long.

 

[BoltNlava]

lol

 

[amnesiac]

Browns' beat MKC: no ruling expected today.

oof.

 

[LOCO]

no news is good news? I mean, cmon, how much longer are they going to drag this out??

 

[Long Ball Larry]

no news is good news? I mean, cmon, how much longer are they going to drag this out??

To me, it has to mean a reduced suspension. I have no idea what could possibly take this long if they are airtight on the 1-year suspension. (or purported 1 year. Please don't give me 5 more pages debating whether the suspension was actually given or not.)

 

[stbugs]

I have until 6:20 local time to declare him as my keeper over Pitta. Seriously doubt we hear anything today. (I got a 24-hour extension from the commish for those following along. And no matter what you say, I know you all care deeply about my fantasy team and its success this season).

In the same boat but vs. DeSean Jackson. Due at 5:00 EST. I think I'm keeping Gordon.

Your decision is a bit tougher (assuming no round difference). Keeping Pitta is just plain silly, unless the decision comes out before the deadline. The upside is so minimal with Pitta that keeping Gordon with no decision is easy.

 

[Ojaays]

I hope along with their decision they also tell us why it took so ####### long.

I already told you why.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

I have until 6:20 local time to declare him as my keeper over Pitta. Seriously doubt we hear anything today. (I got a 24-hour extension from the commish for those following along. And no matter what you say, I know you all care deeply about my fantasy team and its success this season).

That's 4:20 somewhere.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

This is kinda BS especially if he's given 16 games. The Browns now have to go into their dress rehearsal with a question mark at one of the most important positions on offense? It's gotta be less than 16 games.

Um, the Browns should really only be mad at one person and his name is Josh Gordon. He put them in this predicament.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

My apologies as I am sure someone has likely spoken about this. It's hard to see the NFL suspending a player for the season smoking 2nd hand marijauna and then allowing only a 2 game suspension for Ray Rice beating the hell out of his fiancé all on videotape for the World to see.

That has to be what is taking Henderson so long on this. Well there's that and then possibly never being hired by the NFL again if he messes this up, lot of pressure from all sides as we wait for the suspension to be handed down. It seems many feel it is all or nothing, a full season or nothing.

So while I cannot see the NFL wanting his suspension to be as long or longer than beating a woman, I also cannot fathom a player who entered the league with these type of problems already, just can't see him getting no suspension.

I believe a 4-8 game suspension would have been handed down already if Henderson were allowed to do so but because of the way the wording is set on this, we go back to 16 games or none.

What a mess.

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports there will be no decision on Josh Gordon's suspension appeal this week.

"Per FOX Sports' Mike Garofolo, the NFL Players Union and Gordon's reps were expecting a decision by the end of this week. RapSheet says one isn't coming, however. The holdup is believed to be due to a high volume of testimony on both sides stemming from Gordon's latest failed drug test. Gordon failed several drug tests in college, as well. He'll remain in limbo until appeals officer Harold Henderson makes a decision. Hopefully, it'll happen next week."

LMAO are you freaking kidding me?!!!

So much for that 1-3 week time frame!

 

[Ned Ryerson]

My apologies as I am sure someone has likely spoken about this. It's hard to see the NFL suspending a player for the season smoking 2nd hand marijauna and then allowing only a 2 game suspension for Ray Rice beating the hell out of his fiancé all on videotape for the World to see.

That has to be what is taking Henderson so long on this. Well there's that and then possibly never being hired by the NFL again if he messes this up, lot of pressure from all sides as we wait for the suspension to be handed down. It seems many feel it is all or nothing, a full season or nothing.

So while I cannot see the NFL wanting his suspension to be as long or longer than beating a woman, I also cannot fathom a player who entered the league with these type of problems already, just can't see him getting no suspension.

I believe a 4-8 game suspension would have been handed down already if Henderson were allowed to do so but because of the way the wording is set on this, we go back to 16 games or none.

What a mess.

Henderson is an independent arbitrator, why would he care about Ray Rice?

 

[Captain Hook]

My inside sources tell me we'll have a decision before 5PM, and it will be favorable for Gordon. NFL just can't gain any traction with their arguments.

I don't know who your sources are but Ian Rappoport has said there will NOT be a decision this week

 

[King of the Jungle]

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports there will be no decision on Josh Gordon's suspension appeal this week.

"Per FOX Sports' Mike Garofolo, the NFL Players Union and Gordon's reps were expecting a decision by the end of this week. RapSheet says one isn't coming, however. The holdup is believed to be due to a high volume of testimony on both sides stemming from Gordon's latest failed drug test. Gordon failed several drug tests in college, as well. He'll remain in limbo until appeals officer Harold Henderson makes a decision. Hopefully, it'll happen next week."

LMAO are you freaking kidding me?!!!

Jeebus.

 

[GregR]

Gordon's legal case, as I understand it, would be that the NFL's drug testing policies violate Ohio employer law. Under Ohio law (Ohio Code 123:1-76-07), only “specimens which test negative on the initial test or negative on the confirmatory test shall be reported as negative.” As everyone knows, Gordon's A cup tested over the limits, while his B cup tested under. Under Ohio law, this must cause a passing result. Precedence has already been set that the NFL, as the employer of every player, must abide by state laws where each player is employed. Whether or not Gordon can actually win this case is up in the air, but, I think it's strong enough to, at the very least, provide him with an injunction against the league that causes him to suit up. If it takes long enough--the Williams played two years for Minnesota before eventually serving their suspension--he should be able to suit up for all sixteen games.

DISCLAIMER: I picked Gordon in the seventh round of my 16-teamer two weeks ago.

Also, I realized now that I made a typo on my original post. I said I feel it's between fifty and seventy-five percent that he make it through the entire "decision" before it's decided. What I meant to say was that I think it's 50-75% that he makes it through the season. These court battles can potentially drag out for a very long time, a lot longer than the four months the season takes place.

Have said this before when the lawyer's article came about this. I believe saying the 16 on the "A" sample is the law's initial test and the 13.6 on the "B" sample is the law's confirmation test is wrong, and that it's pretty straightforward to tell that it is wrong.

Read the full text of the law and it specifies that the initial test is an immunoassay test. The confirmation test is a different, more accurate mass spectrograph test.

According to the Browns beat reporter,

When players in the NFL are drug-screened, two different tests are used. Gordon measured 38 nanograms per milliliter of THC on the immunoassay test, above the NFL's threshold of 20, the source said. Most other sports organizations have a 50 cutoff or higher to avoid second-hand smoke issue, the source said.

The second test involves an "A" sample and "B'' sample. If the "A'' sample is above the NFL threshold of 15 nanograms for this particular test, the "B'' sample is tested to confirm it. The source said Gordon measured 16 nanograms on the "A'' sample, just one above the NFL's threshold. He measured 13.63 nanograms on the "B'' sample, below the NFL cutoff.

So according to that the initial test required by the law was a 38 and failed. The confirmation test was a 16 which failed. The NFL does, at the player's request, a third test which would go beyond the requirements of the law and tests a second half of the sample using the confirmation test again. The NFL's standard for that test is just that evidence of THC is present. That one would be the 13.6.

The bulk of the media hasn't carried those details, so we have to ask ourselves does that version make sense, and more sense than the more widely reported one? (Edit to add: The more widely reported one does say the 13.6 is just tested for THC being present, incidentally, so it agrees on that part, it just omits any mention of whether an initial test was done before the 16.) I previously posted a link to a testing lab's document that includes the differences between the initial immunoassay test and the confirmation test. It mentions:

Immunoassay:
The accuracy of the level calculated from the immunoassay is at best +/-10%. However, the test is fast and inexpensive. Levels calculated from the immunoassay are approximately 3 times higher than those from the confirmation because the confirmation test is sensitive to only one of the many THC metabolites.

The confirmation test measures the concentration of one chemical, the initial test measures the concentration of multiple chemicals so is expected to be several times higher.

So ask yourself, if the 16 was the initial test and 13.6 the confirmation test from the law as you are assuming, does 16 seem in the neighborhood of 3x more than 13.6? And since obviously it isn't, if the 16 were the initial immunoassay test in the Ohio law and the 13.6 was the confirmation mass spectrograph test, wouldn't that be a cornerstone of Josh Gordon's defense that the 16 and 13.6 shouldn't be so close? The 16 should have been in the 30s or 40s if, as you suggest, the 16 is the law's initial immunoassay test.

But it isn't. Gordon's defense was said to be that the 16 and 13.6 should be the same, which suggests in the eyes of the defense team, they were done with the same test. So Gordon's defense matches what you would expect if the details from the story are true, but his defense doesn't make sense if the 16 was the initial immunoassay test.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the lawyer who brought the Ohio law thing has his tests confused. I imagine if the law did apply to the Browns, a court would have to decide how having 2 versions of the confirmation test being done and having them disagree would play into things. Would a court say the test on the A sample satisfied the law and anything beyond that didn't matter? Or would they decide both confirmation tests had to be negatives if 2 were done?

Or would the delay between the 2 confirmation tests be an issue? The player has to request the test of the B sample after he has been informed of his failed test, with 2 days to file his request and up to 10 days for the test result to be given, per the NFL policy.

A ruling could come down to scientific stuff like how long concentration levels in a sample stay constant, and is the amount of change reasonable based on that and based on the error range of the testing equipment. I have searched online, but never found a good answer to those questions. The closest I found said that samples for alcohol testing have to be tested within about 3 days while tests for drug samples have to be done within 3 weeks or else they are no longer suitable for testing. Obviously something about the sample deteriorates then, but I couldn't find anything definitive that suggested the THC concentration would drop as part of it, or at what rate.

I would imagine the defense team and NFL presented evidence on that kind of stuff though if it was pertinent. And digesting it all, if so, could be one explanation for the delay in a ruling.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

My apologies as I am sure someone has likely spoken about this. It's hard to see the NFL suspending a player for the season smoking 2nd hand marijauna and then allowing only a 2 game suspension for Ray Rice beating the hell out of his fiancé all on videotape for the World to see.

That has to be what is taking Henderson so long on this. Well there's that and then possibly never being hired by the NFL again if he messes this up, lot of pressure from all sides as we wait for the suspension to be handed down. It seems many feel it is all or nothing, a full season or nothing.

So while I cannot see the NFL wanting his suspension to be as long or longer than beating a woman, I also cannot fathom a player who entered the league with these type of problems already, just can't see him getting no suspension.

I believe a 4-8 game suspension would have been handed down already if Henderson were allowed to do so but because of the way the wording is set on this, we go back to 16 games or none.

What a mess.

Henderson is an independent arbitrator, why would he care about Ray Rice?

Because Roger Goodell does and the Shield matters here. If Henderson comes back and says 16 game suspension, might not sit well with female fans. Henderson might have ruled immediately, perhaps Goodell is sitting on it and figuring out what is best.

There are bigger things going on besides us drafting at the 10 hole is all I'm saying. I understand your point though.

 

[Clifford]

I think the fact that three weeks is not enough to decide this is a very good sign for Gordon. Going to give it until 5pm EST just to be sure that the beat writers aren't wrong about timing of the decision, but I wasn't really expecting one today. Very interesting.

 

[Second Sight]

So, what are all you guys who are drafting this weekend doing in regards to Gordon's draft spot? Where is he going?

 

[MoveToSkypager]

So ask yourself, if the 16 was the initial test and 13.6 the confirmation test from the law as you are assuming, does 16 seem in the neighborhood of 3x more than 13.6? And since obviously it isn't, if the 16 were the initial immunoassay test in the Ohio law and the 13.6 was the confirmation mass spectrograph test, wouldn't that be a cornerstone of Josh Gordon's defense that the 16 and 13.6 shouldn't be so close? The 16 should have been in the 30s or 40s if, as you suggest, the 16 is the law's initial immunoassay test.

But it isn't. Gordon's defense was said to be that the 16 and 13.6 should be the same, which suggests in the eyes of the defense team, they were done with the same test. So Gordon's defense matches what you would expect if the details from the story are true, but his defense doesn't make sense if the 16 was the initial immunoassay test.

You went off the rails in this part.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

I would imagine the defense team and NFL presented evidence on that kind of stuff though if it was pertinent. And digesting it all, if so, could be one explanation for the delay in a ruling.

Hey Greg, cut this down for space, nice post. SO having shared all that info, do you feel Gordon is gonna receive a 16 game suspension?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

My apologies as I am sure someone has likely spoken about this. It's hard to see the NFL suspending a player for the season smoking 2nd hand marijauna and then allowing only a 2 game suspension for Ray Rice beating the hell out of his fiancé all on videotape for the World to see.

Actually, you're the first person that has mentioned this.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

My apologies as I am sure someone has likely spoken about this. It's hard to see the NFL suspending a player for the season smoking 2nd hand marijauna and then allowing only a 2 game suspension for Ray Rice beating the hell out of his fiancé all on videotape for the World to see.

That has to be what is taking Henderson so long on this. Well there's that and then possibly never being hired by the NFL again if he messes this up, lot of pressure from all sides as we wait for the suspension to be handed down. It seems many feel it is all or nothing, a full season or nothing.

So while I cannot see the NFL wanting his suspension to be as long or longer than beating a woman, I also cannot fathom a player who entered the league with these type of problems already, just can't see him getting no suspension.

I believe a 4-8 game suspension would have been handed down already if Henderson were allowed to do so but because of the way the wording is set on this, we go back to 16 games or none.

What a mess.

Henderson is an independent arbitrator, why would he care about Ray Rice?

Because Roger Goodell does and the Shield matters here. If Henderson comes back and says 16 game suspension, might not sit well with female fans. Henderson might have ruled immediately, perhaps Goodell is sitting on it and figuring out what is best.

There are bigger things going on besides us drafting at the 10 hole is all I'm saying. I understand your point though.

But again, he is an independent arbitrator, why would it matter what Goddell wants?

 

[GregR]

I would imagine the defense team and NFL presented evidence on that kind of stuff though if it was pertinent. And digesting it all, if so, could be one explanation for the delay in a ruling.

Hey Greg, cut this down for space, nice post. SO having shared all that info, do you feel Gordon is gonna receive a 16 game suspension?

I think it's really hard to be confident about any given outcome.

If you had made me bet my life savings on just one outcome, I'd have said the NFL and Gordon would agree on something less than 16 and more than 0 and Gordon withdrawing his appeal to take the deal. There are the reports the two sides haven't spoken though. Doesn't mean they still can't start talking today and come to an agreement, but not having spoken isn't a positive for that outcome at least.

If it comes down to just the arbitrator making a ruling... with what we know I'd think it would be 16 games. According to the rules of the test policy, all the tests failed the standards that were set for them. But we know so little about the defense... we can sum up in a couple of sentences what we know, but the defense took 2 days to present. It is entirely possible the defense team had something that made enough of a case it would make a difference so I think overturning the suspension is definitely possible.

Going out on a limb, I'll say 40% chance of 16 games, 20% no suspension, and 40% negotiated to something in the middle. If it's 16 games I expect it will go to court next and he might at least play the beginning of the season while that plays out.

 

[donkshow]

Jesus. We will never find out.

 

[C & C]

I'm becoming more and more confident he'll play week 1...however I have no idea if he'll be around a few weeks/months later.

We're almost at the stage where the team has to start preparing for week 1 and I don't think the arbitrator cares one bit. He will take as much time as he feels is necessary to decide.

 

[Clifford]

That being said, is it possible for the arbitrator to take this indecision into the season?

 

[Bonka]

What happened to having a decision in a 'reasonable amount of time' or whatever the now obvious line of BS was?

 

[spider321]

Like many inmates on death row, Gordon will die of old age before the suspension is carried out.

 

[amnesiac]

i assume he can play until a decision is handed down, yes?

 

[C & C]

That being said, is it possible for the arbitrator to take this indecision into the season?

I don't see why not. After this weekend, Cleveland will start prepping for the Steelers. The last pre-season game is primarily for the guys on the end of the roster to have a chance to save themselves or hang themselves. So, by not having a decision at this time it's already going to have an effect on Cleveland's preparations. Once that happens, I don't see much of a difference between now and three weeks from now. Inseason suspensions happen all the time, in the end this isn't going to be all that different (unless of course it stretches into next season -- that's a whole other ballgame).

 

[GregR]

i assume he can play until a decision is handed down, yes?

Yes, I believe the suspension doesn't start until his appeal is over.

If suspended and he files a court case, I believe it would be up to the judge to decide on if the suspension need be halted while the case is heard, or not.

 

[B-Deep]

the joint of Damocles, imo