WRs with torn knee ligaments - who survived? (2 Viewers)

[Matt Waldman]

This is an offshoot of the Matt Jones thread where we got into a discussion of Mike Walker and other receivers with knee injuries and their prospects.

Do we have any examples of WRs who suffered significant knee injuries like an MCL or ACL tear and returned from the injury to have at least a couple of productive seasons?

I'm asking because I like the talent of some players who have experienced a tear in the knee and I wondered how common it is to see a successful return.

I remember Kevin Dyson had one, but he was never a consistently good NFL receiver

Was Jerry Rice's tear at the hands of Warren Sapp on that end around an ACL tear?

If you know of any, name the player and the type of tear and I'll look later to see if they did produce afterwards

Thus far potential candidates (I'll double check in the next 24 hours and divvy the categories to include proven production/didn't produce/jury out) include

Produced afterwards

Jerry Rice -Injured at 35; 7 seasons after injury; 3 w/ 1000+ yards; 6 w/800+ yards; 4 w/@least 7 scores.

Michael Irvin -Injured at 23; 10 seasons after injury; 7 w/1000+ yards; 8 w/800+ yards; 5w/@least 7 scores.

Javon Walker - Injured at 27; 3 seasons after injury; 1 w/1000+ yards; 1 w/800+ yards; 1w/@least 7 scores.

Anquan Boldin - Injured in college; 6 seasons in NFL; 4 w/1000+ yards; 5 w/800+ yards; 4w/@least 7 scores.

Braylon Edwards - Injured as rookie?; 4 seasons in NFL; 1 w/1000+ yards; 3 w/800+yards; 1w/@least 7 scores.

Lee Evans-Injured in college; 5 seasons in NFL; 2 w/1000+ yards; 4 w/800+yards; 3 w/@least 7 scores.

Hines Ward - He's a good mention, but to be playing college and NFL without injury I think disqualifies him even w/o ACL

Amani Toomer- Injured as a rookie?; 12 seasons since injury; 5 w/1000+ yards; 0w/800+yards; 3w/@least 7 scores.

Joey Galloway- Injured at 30?; 8 seasons since injury; 3 w/1000+yards; 4w/800+yards; 2w/@ least 7 scores.

Mark Bradley (took a couple of years at least, but had nice production for KC, but I don't think he qualifies...more of jury out but still promising)

Bobby Engram - Injured at 27; 8 seasons since, 1 w/1000+yards; 1w/800+yards; 0w/@least 7 scores.

Reggie Wayne - Injured in college; 8 seasons in NFL; 5w/1000+yards; 6w/800+yards; 4w/@least 7 scores.

Robert Brooks - Injured at 26?; 3 seasons after injury; 1 w/1000+yards; 1w/800+yards; 1w/@least 7 scores.

Jury Out

Nate Burleson

David Givens

Torry Holt

Greg Camarillo

Deion Branch

Unproven Pros or Soon-to-be Rookies

James Hardy

Brandon Jones

Chad Jackson

Drew Carter

Jeremy Maclin

Brandon Tate

Mike Walker

Malcolm Kelly

Didn't work out

Michael Westbrook

Patrick Jeffers

Wendell Davis

 

[obxlegends]

Was Jerry Rice's tear at the hands of Warren Sapp on that end around an ACL tear?

"During the season opener of the 1997 season he tore the anterior cruciate and medial collateral ligaments in his left knee on a reverse. Warren Sapp of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers grabbed Rice by the face-mask and wrenched Rice to the ground with it, drawing a 15-yard personal foul. The injury broke his streak of 189 consecutive games played." - Wikipedia

 

[obxlegends]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.

ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

 

[Matt Waldman]

Thanks for the clarification, good find. Anyone else come to mind? If all we have is the great Jerry Rice as an example, any WR coming off an ACL and/or MCL tear is in a deep waters to begin their career...

 

[sib]

I believe Anquan Boldin had an ACL tear in Florida State. He's obviously had quite a few good seasons in the NFL. I think Braylon Edwards suffered an ACL tear and then had a big year in 2007. Last year was a down season for Edwards..we'll see how he is going forward...

 

[Matt Waldman]

Boldin? Really? Did not know that...very interesting.

I remember Michael Westbrook, but he had it happen a year after his best season and I don't recall him doing much after that...

 

[moderated]

Jeremy Maclin ripped his knee up good in 07'.

It scares when thinking about his long-term outlook.

 

[Matt Waldman]

I just added a second list of college guys turning pro or young prospects who are unproven but in the pros right now.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/57951.php

This study is a couple of years old now, but still relevant to the discussion.

What other fantasy relevant receivers have suffered torn ACLs in the last 5-10 years, besides the ones already mentioned?

Off the top of my head:

Nate Burleson

James Hardy

Brandon Jones

Amani Toomer

Chad Jackson

Drew Carter

David Givens

ETA: Mark Bradley tore his ACL, had a pretty good year last year for KC

 

[sib]

Boldin? Really? Did not know that...very interesting. I remember Michael Westbrook, but he had it happen a year after his best season and I don't recall him doing much after that...

Out of college it was discovered Hines Ward was missing an ACL in his left knee. Although that's not quite having ACL surgery, a missing ACL would draw the same long-term concerns. I think Lee Evans also had an ACL tear in college. So:Anquan Boldin - ACL tear in collegeLee Evans - ACL tear in collegeHines Ward - missing ACL (discovered in college or leading up to NFL draft)Braylon Edwards - ACL tear in NFL (Year 1 or Year 2??)

 

[Joe Bryant]

Outstanding topic, Matt.

J

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Joey Galloway's been decent.

 

[Matt Waldman]

Good add with Galloway...I think by tomorrow, I'll try to profile their production to see how many years it took each to return to decent form and when in their careers they had the injury.

It would be cool to get enough info out of this thread to have a clear idea of which kind of tears and at what points of a WR's career he's still got a chance to be productive.

 

[Matt Waldman]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/57951.php

This study is a couple of years old now, but still relevant to the discussion.

What other fantasy relevant receivers have suffered torn ACLs in the last 5-10 years, besides the ones already mentioned?

Off the top of my head:

Nate Burleson

James Hardy

Brandon Jones

Amani Toomer

Chad Jackson

Drew Carter

David Givens

ETA: Mark Bradley tore his ACL, had a pretty good year last year for KC

I have to check out this link later. Although I was hoping just for guys who've proven they can produce, you've added another element to the discussion I like, which is to see how some of the unproven guys might work out when we compare them to the names who have seen the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[mggoilers]

Michael "Playmaker" Irvin - Year 2...hard work baby

1989: Irvin was on a pace to collect 69 catches for 1,008 yards, and he was leading the team in receiving yards and touchdown catches before suffering a season-ending knee injury in the sixth game of the year against San Francisco (10/15). Irvin tore the anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee - requiring major surgery and an off-season rehabilitation program that extended into 1990.

 

[Matt Waldman]

Irvin in year one??? Really? Whoa...

ETA: It's pretty amazing some of the people we have on this list who thrived. Boldin and Irvin are both especially surprising to me.

 

[mggoilers]

Irvin in year one??? Really? Whoa...

Had my dates wrong, it was year 2...updated above.

 

[The Man with the Plan]

Bobby Engram tore his ACL in 2000 and came back to become one of the best slot receivers in the NFL. Not really fantasy relevant though outside of his 2007 season (94-1147-6).

 

[mggoilers]

Torry Holt, they talked about him having a simple scope...but it took him 9 months to recover. The rumor I heard from a sportswriter in STL was microfracture.

I believe this was 2 years ago.

 

[mggoilers]

This discussion makes me curious about Colston, who is also rumored to have been needing microfracture...may have already had it.

Having an ACL Tear myself, it's all about mentally getting over it. A NFL player should be stronger around the joint after going through rehab. The time away from the game is tough to get over, but the great ones can pull a Booger and say "What the ^%!@?

Here is a great article on the 2 year RB rule

http://www.footballdocs.com/RB_injury_rule.html

 

[Matt Waldman]

I definitely have to check out the footballdocs link. I've only sprained an ankle and fractured my jaw so I feel fortunate not to have to deal with a knee issue. With all the running that receivers do, it's surprising to me that so many have come back and performed well.

I wonder how it impacts receivers later in life and it's kind of amazing that the knee as fragile as it seems anatomy-wise is really pretty resilient with the right "medicine"

 

[Matt Waldman]

Haven't forgotten this one, just fell a bit behind...

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Nice list, nice thread - not much to add - jury's still out on Camarillo, Branch

 

[travdogg]

Reggie Wayne turned out fine after blowing out his knee his junior year at Miami.

 

[mggoilers]

Reggie Wayne turned out fine after blowing out his knee his junior year at Miami.

Wow, Reggie...found a linkhttp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...04/miami_wayne/

 

[az_prof]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

I think Javon Walker proves the rule--he hasn't done much.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

Irvin in year one??? Really? Whoa...ETA: It's pretty amazing some of the people we have on this list who thrived. Boldin and Irvin are both especially surprising to me.

Irvin is especially surprising to me because his injury was 20 years ago and they didn't have the medical advances they have now.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

I think Javon Walker proves the rule--he hasn't done much.

I'm not sure, but I thought Walker had other issues with his knee besides the ACL, namely not having much cartilage. I'm not positive on that though.

 

[loose circuits]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

I think Javon Walker proves the rule--he hasn't done much.

or Edwards for that matter. When I saw those two names, i wasn't sure if the argument was for or against

 

[Anthony Borbely]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

I think Javon Walker proves the rule--he hasn't done much.

or Edwards for that matter. When I saw those two names, i wasn't sure if the argument was for or against

Braylon definitely recovered and had a huge 2007 season.

 

[az_prof]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

I think Javon Walker proves the rule--he hasn't done much.

I'm not sure, but I thought Walker had other issues with his knee besides the ACL, namely not having much cartilage. I'm not positive on that though.

Not sure either, I just remember thinking he didn't look like the same player in Denver. I also thought maybe he was a juiced up player--I think alot of times you see these guys with unbelievable physiques get hurt and it is because the juice has added more muscle to their frame than is natural and then they tear something. PURE SPECULATION on my part, but that was what I thought at the time.

 

[obxlegends]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

I think Javon Walker proves the rule--he hasn't done much.

I'm not sure, but I thought Walker had other issues with his knee besides the ACL, namely not having much cartilage. I'm not positive on that though.

Not sure either, I just remember thinking he didn't look like the same player in Denver. I also thought maybe he was a juiced up player--I think alot of times you see these guys with unbelievable physiques get hurt and it is because the juice has added more muscle to their frame than is natural and then they tear something. PURE SPECULATION on my part, but that was what I thought at the time.

69 Catches 1084 Yards and 9 TD's in 2006, the year after the injury. I think Borbs was right when he said he's had issues since that's limited him. I believe the overall point is that he was productive after his original ACL injury.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

I definitely have to check out the footballdocs link. With all the running that receivers do, it's surprising to me that so many have come back and performed well.

It's not the running, it's the cutting. WRs do better than RBs, for example, because there isn't as much need for lateral movement. Same can be said for QBs, and linemen of course.I would love to know exactly what advances have been made in ACL reconstruction over the last 10 - 20 years. The surgery itself has not changed that much. From what I understand, there are basically three schools of thought - cadaver, hammy, patella. That is, there is not some new procedure - not that I'm aware of anyway. So, where (and how) have they improved things? Or have they really improved things that much? I could see the rehab as having improved moreso than the actual operation...

I think the biggest progress, and I'm guessing here, with the actual surgery, was from say the 80's to the 90's. So since the late 90's, what's different, exactly? That's what I'd like to know.

 

[Bri]

I think the biggest progress, and I'm guessing here, with the actual surgery, was from say the 80's to the 90's. So since the late 90's, what's different, exactly? That's what I'd like to know.

To many it started with Knick great Bernard King.The main difference is it's very very common now and many people just (tried to)ignored it and didn't have surgery at all. I don't know the medical differences. I would imagine it has to do with using hammy vs cadaver, pin(screw) style, technique etc.

 

[Bri]

Walker is too much of a wildcard to be used effectively in this study

 

[Spike]

I definitely have to check out the footballdocs link. With all the running that receivers do, it's surprising to me that so many have come back and performed well.

It's not the running, it's the cutting. WRs do better than RBs, for example, because there isn't as much need for lateral movement. Same can be said for QBs, and linemen of course.I would love to know exactly what advances have been made in ACL reconstruction over the last 10 - 20 years. The surgery itself has not changed that much. From what I understand, there are basically three schools of thought - cadaver, hammy, patella. That is, there is not some new procedure - not that I'm aware of anyway. So, where (and how) have they improved things? Or have they really improved things that much? I could see the rehab as having improved moreso than the actual operation...

I think the biggest progress, and I'm guessing here, with the actual surgery, was from say the 80's to the 90's. So since the late 90's, what's different, exactly? That's what I'd like to know.

I've had ACL surgery twice:1. In 1989, it was the hammy.

2. In 2006, it was the cadaver.

It was the same surgeon both times (Dr. Bert Zarins out of Mass General; a superb orthopedist). When I asked him about the differences since they were almost 20 years apart, he said they were so vast to not even invite comparison.

 

[NorrisB]

Robert Brooks

 

[Matt Waldman]

Looks like we have some potentially interesting results. I'm a little wrapped up in a book I'm editing, can someone double check the age of these guys injuries that I updated on the first post? Once we get that confirmed, I think talking about the age of injury and subsequent seasons is an interesting direction.

Bri is probably right about Walker, his issues after the surgery have more to do with emotional trauma than injury.

 

[Bri]

I'm a little wrapped up in a book I'm editing,

details?

 

[Matt Waldman]

I'm a little wrapped up in a book I'm editing,

details?

See my sig

 

[stbugs]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

I think Javon Walker proves the rule--he hasn't done much.

or Edwards for that matter. When I saw those two names, i wasn't sure if the argument was for or against

Braylon definitely recovered and had a huge 2007 season.

As an Edwards owner the past 3 years, he recovered fine. 2008 had to do with drops not his knee. If he could have held onto the ball, he would have easily repeated 2007 in 2008 and probably be fighting for the #1 WR draft spot. I honestly stopped checking around week 8 for the drops as if you go back through all the game logs here, there was at least 1 post each week about how Edwards dropped a sure TD and most of the time a long TD.Edwards definitely is on the side of being able to recover and play well. Edwards, IMHO, is a heck of a buy low candidate this year. I am keeping him just because if he gets back to catching balls as in 2007, he will be top 5.

 

[Fantasy Bum]

I believe a torn ACL in 2000 preseason ended Rob Moore's career.

 

[JamesTheScot]

I definitely have to check out the footballdocs link. With all the running that receivers do, it's surprising to me that so many have come back and performed well.

It's not the running, it's the cutting. WRs do better than RBs, for example, because there isn't as much need for lateral movement. Same can be said for QBs, and linemen of course.I would love to know exactly what advances have been made in ACL reconstruction over the last 10 - 20 years. The surgery itself has not changed that much. From what I understand, there are basically three schools of thought - cadaver, hammy, patella. That is, there is not some new procedure - not that I'm aware of anyway. So, where (and how) have they improved things? Or have they really improved things that much? I could see the rehab as having improved moreso than the actual operation...

I think the biggest progress, and I'm guessing here, with the actual surgery, was from say the 80's to the 90's. So since the late 90's, what's different, exactly? That's what I'd like to know.

I've had ACL surgery twice:1. In 1989, it was the hammy.

2. In 2006, it was the cadaver.

It was the same surgeon both times (Dr. Bert Zarins out of Mass General; a superb orthopedist). When I asked him about the differences since they were almost 20 years apart, he said they were so vast to not even invite comparison.

When I had mine in 1991, I had a 3 day hospital stay and I still have a six-inch scar up the front of my upper-shin and knee. Ironically, my ACL had been torn in high school 3 years prior and the severed ligament had atrophied into nothing over the next 3 years so the MRI showed no ACL in my knee. My surgeon in a follow-up visit was laughing about how they had to bring in an extra guy to manipulate my leg to keep the joint positioned so the procedure could be performed. He made it sound like the assistants actually had to wrestle the knee and leg into unusual positions to perform the procedure. My minds eye pictured those old movies where a bunch of guys hold down the soldier having a battlefield amputation. IIRC, I was to bear no weight at all on it for a couple of weeks and I was on crutches for the better part of two months. If I understand the procedure as it is done now, it's an arthroscopic procedure and you might not even spend the night. I think they have you putting partial weight on within a few days.

My layman's perception is that not having to open up the entire joint and not having to manipulate the joint so severly during the procedure results in a much shorter recovery and less collateral disruption to the rest of the joint.

 

[mggoilers]

This is a nice thread, and could be useful to Welker Owners/Buyers

Thanks Matt

 

[ATC1]

What I get from the research is that it really depends on the age and wear on the athlete by the time the injury occurs. Welker is 28. Very boarderline IMO. Probably on the older side for those not as successful after injury. Would also be cool to break down the type of WR with the injury, posession vs deep threat.

Also, intresting to note about Ron Curry. I beileve it was he who tore his achilles. Certainly not the same again. Anyone else?

M. Colston had patella microfracture surgery at the end of last season. It was discussed a lot during the off season. It did not seem to affect him, but I also think the area of the procedure was not very large in comparision to most microfracture surgery.

Would Winslow be a good study?

 

[bostonfred]

What I get from the research is that it really depends on the age and wear on the athlete by the time the injury occurs. Welker is 28. Very boarderline IMO. Probably on the older side for those not as successful after injury.

One thing working in his favor is that, unlike a multimillionaire receiver who had been around for many years in the NFL, Welker really hasn't had a chance to get his big payday. So he's got a lot more motivation to recover than someone who already had a life of leisure locked up. That's a big deal when we're talking about the amount of effort that goes into recovery.

 

[5-ish Finkle]

Not sure this would fit into this scenario you're building, but isn't Hines Ward, like, MISSING one of his knee ligaments? Some kind of accident when he was a kid or something?

I know I've heard stories about it, just not sure if they're 100% true(or at least not greatly sensationalized).

 

[GreatLakesMike]

Javon Walker also fits into this mode, although in the long run it may of caught up to him.ETA: Braylon Edwards also had a torn ACL his rookie year and had a great 07 and decent 08.

I think Javon Walker proves the rule--he hasn't done much.

or Edwards for that matter. When I saw those two names, i wasn't sure if the argument was for or against

Braylon definitely recovered and had a huge 2007 season.

As an Edwards owner the past 3 years, he recovered fine. 2008 had to do with drops not his knee. If he could have held onto the ball, he would have easily repeated 2007 in 2008 and probably be fighting for the #1 WR draft spot. I honestly stopped checking around week 8 for the drops as if you go back through all the game logs here, there was at least 1 post each week about how Edwards dropped a sure TD and most of the time a long TD.Edwards definitely is on the side of being able to recover and play well. Edwards, IMHO, is a heck of a buy low candidate this year. I am keeping him just because if he gets back to catching balls as in 2007, he will be top 5.

Edwards needs either hand or brain surgery, or both.

 

[Matt Waldman]

Just conjecture, but it seems the younger you are with an injury to the knee, the more likely you can recover enough athleticism to still be an NFL difference maker.

 

[az_prof]

Good topic Matt. But one thing to keep in mind as a caveat is that people are more likely to recall the guys who came back and did well then people who never became stars at all as a result of the injury.