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The problem is that those time he was tackled behind the LOS he was getting hit by 3-4 guys, not just 1-2. Watch the games. Defenses key on Reggie. One on one he can break tackles and does. He's not a pile pusher by any means, but then again, he's not a power back. No one said he was.But the kid can and does break tackles. It would be great to see what he could do with an OL in front of him
You asked how many head coaches would utilize Bush or Vick as a WR. Obviously, the only people who know that are the coaches themselves. No one here knows. But my statement was that it would only take one. Whether there is a coach out there that would utilize Bush or vick as a WR has nothing to do with the decisions made by the coaches who have already coached Bush and Vick. Either there is a coach out there who would do it or there isn't. The probability that that coach exists doesn't change merely because we can't prove it.
Yes but because we can't prove it, we can't assign much of a probability. It's just a theory that such a coach exists.If there were a historical precedent I would find it more convincing.
That doesn't make any sense. If we could prove it, it wouldn't be a probability.
And it's just a theory that such a coach doesn't exist.
If there were a precedent there would be no need to convince anyone of anything. It would be fact.
If we could prove the coach existed, it's just a matter of probability whether he coaches Bush or not at some point in his career.
Maybe. But so far we haven't seen one.
It would mean there is a real life example, not just a theory.
I don't feel you've explained it very well. It was interesting though.
You keep wanting to assign a value to the probability when there is no way to do so. As I said, all it would take is for one coach to make that decision. For all we know, there may be a few coaches who would do it. At the same time, there may be none. The fact that we can't prove how many exist doesn't cause the likelihood of the outcome to be reduced because there is, in fact, an answer to the question. Whether we know it or not.You can only start assigning a value to the probability when you have something to compare it with. For example, you could assign relative values when comparing the likelihood that one coach would utilize them as WRs versus the likelihood that fifteen coaches would do so. I think most people would agree that the probability that there's one coach who would do it is much higher than the probability that fifteen coaches would do it. But that's not the issue here.happy_donut said:
I'll handle this Cowboy. I've been kicking BJ's but up and down the court on Reggie Bush for two years. In fact he still owes me a week of whatever Sig I want him to display as we bet who would have the better season between MJD and Bush. MJ's lacking the integrity to call off the bet after Deuce went down and Bush became the starter which greatly skewed things in his favor but did not really help prove the intent of the bet was left with egg on his face that despite starting 10 games Reggie still finished behind MJD. Maybe one day I will hold him to the Sig portion of the bet. As to the original question posed by BJ's I will say this. Do I watch every Saints game? Nope. I've seen my share. I've also seen the stat line. And one or two highlight reel plays are one thing but at the end of the day the guy has a 3.7 YPC. So while he's doing a few plays that are impressive we are not seeing the multitudes of more plays that are under 4 yards. It's the law of averages. If the guy breaks off a 6 yard run where he makes 2 spin moves but ends the day with 6 rushes for 5 yards, guess what happened on the other 5 carries? Do I need to watch that game to know what happened on the other plays? Nope. ESPN showed the 6 yard carry.Or what about if he runs for 10 yards and is in the Sportscenter Highlight reel but ends the day with 9 carries for 23 yards? What do you think he did with the other 8 carries? Not much. Again, I didn't need to see the game to know what happened there. Or how about a highlight reel 10 yard carry but finishing the day with 10 carries for 27 yards? Or another nice 6 yarder but finished the day with 15 yards on 7 carries. The first example was against GB on 0/17/06. The second was against TB on 10/8/06. The third was also TB on 9/16/2007 and the final example was Tennessee on 9/24/2007.Sure these are extreme examples but if we add the extreme examples up with the long plays on the other side of the spectrum we still have an average of 3.7 yards per carry. That's just a biscuit better than Cedric Benson at 3.4 YPC. Ouch...Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:He asks me......you don't think he actually knows what he's talking about do youBlackjacks said:Question for you Fanatic. You say that all we see is the highlights..right? Yet you say he gets stopped behind the line all the time and they dont show that on Sportscenter...right? I know your not sitting down on Sunday's and just watching New Orleans games so how did you become such an expert on Bush if sportscenter isn't showing the bad part of his game. If your going off stats and stats only I can definetly see where people think Bush has been a disappointment so far in his career. What you don't see in those stats are how many third downs he picks up, how great he is at picking up blitzes, how can opens up so much for the other offensive players. I will say I, a huge Reggie fan, am getting alittle sick and tired of watching him dance behind the line instead of putting his head down and getting the tough yards but I have to remember he has always been able to do that all his career and that he has only been in the leage 2 years. Reggie has a great football mind and is dedicated to be the best. I hope he improves on this and gets alittle more patience with his line. If he does I stil think he has the skills to be elite. I still have huge hopes for him for this year and would still have him as a top 7 rb for dynasty purposes.TheFanatic said:This is going to be a tough one to debate. There were plenty of highlight reel tackle breaks that Reggie made in his career. But there was also that low YP-Carry and YP-Catch that would seem to nullify that notion that he is great at breaking tackles. And this is the inherent problem with Bush. ESPN is quick to ride his jock about 2 amazing carries in a game where he broke some tackles and made an incredible run but don't show us the other 6 times he got stopped at or before the LOS. We will see those two carries in real time, slomo and maybe in real time again but no mention that the guy busted off a 15 yard run but ended the day with 11 yards rushing. The perception is that he can break tackles because we see it EVERY time he breaks one. We don't see it every time he gets stuffed 1 yard shy of the LOS which seems to happen more often than him breaking a run for more than 5 yards considering his sub 4.0 YPC.And considering I don't know of an official "broken tackle stat" I don't think we can ever truly come to a consensus on this. Switz and the Blackjacks will always say that they guy is an amazing RB partly due to his tackle breaking skills and I will argue that he is a mediocre RB because of his lack of tackle breaking skills. I would say he is better at alluding tackles not breaking them. The spin moves and change of direction are incredible. But breaking tackles? I don't think so. And considering the stats between him and Westbrook with Reggie running between the tackles more I will say this, uh, don't do that. The Saints need better play calling. The guy needs to be in space more than he needs to be running between the tackles. Either switch to Zone blocking to get Reggie behind the line with only the LB's and secondary or run him around the outside more or line him up at WR.Reid had man love for Buckhalter because he wanted to smash the ball down the opponents throats. Buck blows an ACL. Turns out the Westbrook kid can play. Reid adapted to the talent he had rather than trying to stuff Westbrook down the throats of Defenses. Bush will look a lot better if the Saints do the same. But when Deuce went down they did not change styles. The guy has skills but not great RB skills. If they use him like Westbrook we will still be having this debate but more people will be lining up behind Reggie than there are now. Can we get back to debating who is better between Bush and MJD? I love that debateswitz said:
Oh ya Fanatic!
If I'm not mistaken their was a block in the back on that one that was never called or maybe a pick , I can't remember which off hand but I do remember jumping off my couch throwing a flag and those dumb ### NFL refs missed it. Somebody look at the film.Neil Beaufort Zod said:
It was a pick. I'm adding the film to show that the other receiver definitely made a move at the defender to pick him off the route. The announcer even uses the phrase natural pick which is bull####. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...dex=0&hl=en
No, I'm not trying to assign a value to the probability. I'm saying that because you can't assign a value to it the value is negligible. You'll be chasing theories all day if you try to go this route. You need to take what you know is true and go with it.You've taken this argument into quite a theoretical realm, and I do appreciate it. I think it's probably a good time to reiterate my original thought. I was responding to some who said Reggie Bush and Mike Vick should be moved to WR (I'm paraphrasing). My response was a simple: "Yet NFL Coaches disagree".You've added on thoughts like: "Reggie Bush has had only one coach", "Those coaches are not geniuses", "All it takes is one", etc. None of this really refutes the fact that no NFL coach has chosen to move either player to WR.Am I being clear enough? I think you are a smart guy and love the debate, but I think we've gotten off track here. My premise is a lot simpler than you are making it.
He can't - but he has
Maybe not consistently... but it's not that he can't.
I find it hard to see how anyone is still defending Bush, or saying anything other than "he's been a HUGE disappointment." Even in PPR I am not sold on his long-term value, really. The guy averaged a putrid 5.7 yards per catch last year! Is he really going to continue to see 80 passes thrown his way per year if he doesn't do anything with them? He's also averaged 3.7/5.7 despite playing in one of the best offenses in the NFL with multiple other weapons around him to draw attention.Could he turn it around? Sure. Is that really all that likely, though? He has been outplayed by virtually every other RB on the Saints roster the past two years. If he didn't carry that "#2 overall pick" label and its associated hype, he'd likely be on the bench by now, IMO. If he doesn't make MAJOR strides this year, he likely will be on the bench regardless.Obviously, if you own him in a dynasty, you are pretty much stuck with him, considering the price you likely paid to get him. Of course it is way too early to cut bait, but I'd certainly be sending out feelers to see if anyone still viewed him as a RB1.
Your smilies and one word answers don't really add a lot to the discussion. Pointing out a typo on a message board is at about the same level. Here let me correct:I'm saying that because you can't assign a value to it when the value is negligible.
The guy is nothing more than a situational RB worthy of a 2nd-3rd round pick. 28 games and the longest run he has ever had according to Pro-Football refernce is a stinking 22 yarder. Pathetic. 8 of the 9 RB's drafted after this guy have runs longer than him including FatDale White.However as a WR, like I said before, he is a talent. He just is average at best as a RB.
They can get him into space without having to just pass to him more. More runs and sweeps to the outside should improve his YPC by not having him run through the line and having him run around LB's and secondary players.I said it all along about Reggie. He didn't run through holes in college. He ran through hallways opened up by a DOMINANT O-Line. He never had to make something out of nothing in a hole that collapses after just 2 seconds. The hole just stayed open. He never learned that timing and vision to see a hole is closing and bouncing around to something else because he never had to.
How was I supposed to know it was a typo? I just thought you didn't have a clue what you were talking about.Oh btw, assigning a negligible value to it is still assigning a value.
couldn't agree more. how long can they keep going to this drive killer. has anyone EVER seen this guy break a single tackle? how good could the saints have been, if those 73 passes would have gone to someone that could have actually averaged more than 5.7? makes you wonder what is YAC is?
Go look at his stats for the entire 2nd half of 2006 and you'll know why. When he's paired with a RB like Deuce and used correctly, he can be deadly. Check out his YPC and his YPR during that 2nd half. 2007 was the 1st time he's ever been asked to shoulder the load and it was for a total of 9 games until he got hurt. You can write him off after 9 games if you want. I'll give him a little more time. He's talented enough but just not being used correctly and hampered by poor play calling.And yes, I've watched almost all his games living here in NOLA and being a Saints fan. He definitely has things he has to learn to be an inside runner, but he hasn't been asked to do it much. We'll see if he either learns how or the play-calling dictates him being used differently (a la Westbrook). If they do, he can most certainly be successful.
That poor playcalling resulted in the Saints' offense finishing 4th in the NFL last year. Someone in NO must know what they are doing.I agree that Bush is being used incorrectly, though. He should be a 3rd down COP RB and return guy.
28th in rushing. I have no problem how they manage/playcall the passing game.Look, I watched every Saints game last year. Also watched them the year before that. Their play-calling, particularly on 1st down and on 3rd and short that was suspect at best. They tried to use Bush the same way they use Deuce when McAllister went down and it simply wasn't working. Whether he can't run that way or just hasn't learned how to yet, I'm not completely sure, but it wasn't good. But every game, there were several play calls, esp. on 3rd and short (3rd and 3 and 3rd and 4) where they called plays that were doomed to failure. I'm not the only person saying this. There were quite a few threads on here calling for Payton's head (in addition to lots of local rumblings) because of the "cute" stuff as well as the predictable stuff they were calling last year in the run game. It didn't work and it cost us a few games. I know Saint's fans can be fickle, but in last year's case, it was simply true. Payton tried too hard to outthink the opposing defense and it often times didn't work. It improved over the course of the season, without a doubt, and that was a big reason why NO was in the playoff hunt through week 17. So, just because they finished 4th overall because of their passing game does not mean the playcalling was great.That poor playcalling resulted in the Saints' offense finishing 4th in the NFL last year. Someone in NO must know what they are doing.I agree that Bush is being used incorrectly, though. He should be a 3rd down COP RB and return guy.
You look at his second half of 2006 as the true Reggie but discount the 9 or 10 starts because he was asked to "shoulder the load" for the first time? Sorry, but if he wants to be a great back in the league he has to shoulder the load. So playing second fiddle to Deuce he played pretty well. Fantastic. Let's get that bust carved for Canton. Oh, wait. Backups rarely make it Canton. Backups don't deserve to be the highest paid RB in the league. As a starter he sucked rocks. He has not lived up to the hype. He has not lived up to the contract. And I don't think he ever will. You can either run between the tackles or you can't. It's more instinct than it is a learned skill.gianmarco said:
He hasn't been asked to run inside much? You need to read this entire thread. They over utilized the guy inside and he has failed miserably at it. But hey, you're a homer and the guy is an icon in NOLA. All I gotta say is the Emperor got a new set of clothes and there isn't much to them or Reggie in terms of being a RB.gianmarco said:
Go back and read some of my previous posts. I'm not discounting his 9 or 10 starts this year. They were not good. I don't know if he will ever be able to become an inside runner. I don't think he's had much experience with it and I think it's possible he can learn how to, but I wouldn't bank on that at all. But, there is a difference between "shouldering the load" and being an inside runner. You can still be the focal point of the offense and shoulder the load without being an inside runner. Look at Westbrook. Look at Tiki. Granted, those guys actually can run inside considerably better than Bush, but they weren't/aren't asked to the majority of the time. I think Bush should be used in a similar mold and I don't think he has been. That has to do with the playcalling.However, I never said the 2nd half of 2006 was the true Reggie. I simply said it's what he is CAPABLE of. I'm not happy with his current progression. I'm nowhere close to making a bust for him in Canton and never said so. I simply said that I think it's still too early to proclaim him a bust. This year is going to be very telling. The reason I said I think it's too early is because of both 1) his success in the 2nd half of 2006 used differently (together with Deuce) and 2) Being asked to be an inside runner for the first time in his career. If they can find him a similar compliment like they had in Deuce, then I could easily see a return to his 2nd half of 2006 form. If they don't, I think he still has a chance to learn to be an inside runner OR be used differently and be successful. It's also possible neither of those happen and he fails this year as well. Finally, you say he played second fiddle to Deuce. I disagree 100%. They were BOTH starters--one was an inside runner and the other was used in space. They were used 50/50 and used perfectly and the offense was VERY dangerous because of it. They were used completely differently, not as Bush coming in as a backup or COP to Deuce. P.S.--the guy is NOT an icon here. Many were very frustrated with how he performed last year and missed Deuce quite a bit.
I don't think he was referring to last year, I believe he meant over his entire HS, college, and pro career. He's never really had to run inside at the HS or college level, because there were far more ways to get him in space via sweeps, swing passes (both harder in the NFL because of speed), and option plays (which really just don't work in the NFL at all.)From a long term point of view, last season was really the first time he had extensive work inside. And honestly, he wasn't great at it, but he wasn't awful either. There were some times where it looked like he was starting to get it together. MY real question about Bush is his vision, something I thought he had, but after last year I'm beginning to wonder.If they use him like Westbrook, he'll be fine. If they continue to run him straight into the line, he won't be.
As Switz pointed out, that's exactly what I meant. I wasn't referring to last year. Yet again (scary), that's how I feel about Bush, with the exception that at times he was awful. But, he did have his moments where it looked like he might be catching on and then he'd revert to his old ways of trying to create a highlight reel instead of taking the 3-4 yds.
Exactly. He has no patience to wait or look for a hole, because he never had to. He needs to be coached up for that, and maybe the Saints arent doing a good job of that. He needs to learn that in the NFL, what few holes there are, need to be found by the back, and often waited for to open.
This is exactly why I think it's still too early to completely write him off. During his 1st year in the NFL, he still didn't have to do that because Deuce was doing the inside running. There is still a chance he can learn to do it with some coaching and some more experience. I'm not expecting him to and I think the odds are against him, but it's definitely possible and he showed some signs last year. Not very many signs, but he did show some potential that he was "getting it".
Well, this is a bit much. Of course it can be learned. It has to be learned by every RB that plays in the NFL. It's just a question of whether he can learn it quick enough and start to do it. All the RB's in the NFL that can run inside weren't born knowing how to do it. They were coached and they were taught and they did it over and over until they learned how to do it and it became second nature. Some are better at it than others, obviously, and that's why some RB's have better "vision" than others. They just do it better because they are more talented, but they still had to learn how.I'm sure Reggie has learned it before, he just hasn't had to do it and doesn't have the experience. I honestly don't know what the learning curve would be for him to pick it up and apply it so that he was actually successful doing it. But, as talented and athletic as the kid is, I wouldn't put it past him to be able to do so. The bottomline will be whether or not the Saints feel he can do it. If he can't and they continue to use him as they did last year, he will fail. If he can't do it, but they see that and try to use him differently with different playcalling like Westbrook or Barber, then he has a better chance to succeed. Or, if he can't, then they can bring in a true inside runner like Deuce and use him like they did in 2006 in which I also think he will be very successful. We'll see soon enough, but all of the above are possible (including him actually learning it and succeeding, although that's probably the least likely).
You can call it a bit much but I call it 2 years in and the kid still doesn't know how to do it. We're not talking about Calculus. We're talking about finding daylight between a bunch of extremely large, strong and fast men - some of whom are trying to protect you and others who are trying to kill you. It's the basic fight or flight stress/adrenaline scenario. It's not teaching the kid about macro economics and why supply side economics leads to merger frenzies and has the exact opposite effect intended.
This made me laugh more than it probably should have
Definitely sig-worthy for those that care. Only word missing from there is sweaty.
he would need Westbrook's skills to do that . . .
(easily) . . . the post of the thread . . .I find it hard to see how anyone is still defending Bush, or saying anything other than "he's been a HUGE disappointment." Even in PPR I am not sold on his long-term value, really. The guy averaged a putrid 5.7 yards per catch last year! Is he really going to continue to see 80 passes thrown his way per year if he doesn't do anything with them? He's also averaged 3.7/5.7 despite playing in one of the best offenses in the NFL with multiple other weapons around him to draw attention.Could he turn it around? Sure. Is that really all that likely, though? He has been outplayed by virtually every other RB on the Saints roster the past two years. If he didn't carry that "#2 overall pick" label and its associated hype, he'd likely be on the bench by now, IMO. If he doesn't make MAJOR strides this year, he likely will be on the bench regardless.Obviously, if you own him in a dynasty, you are pretty much stuck with him, considering the price you likely paid to get him. Of course it is way too early to cut bait, but I'd certainly be sending out feelers to see if anyone still viewed him as a RB1.
