The Mathematics of God's plan (1 Viewer)

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters. The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times. Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc.. A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan. How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment? This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God.

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved". This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity. Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4. This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets. Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting. During this time, billions of new people are born and have died. The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially.

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world. If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven. Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc..

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so?

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this? Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this. I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

The line forms behind Jayrok

The line forms behind Jayrok

Click to expand...

Hey, no pushing... and keep your hands to yourself.

Good points!

But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. We simply must trust in his eternal wisdom, and believe that he is doing what's best. After all, the bible tells us that He loves us and God wouldn't lie to us, would he? No, he wouldn't.

Therefore, I will not contemplate the implications of your post, implying that God has an attrition rate of 3 souls for every 1 saved. I will not consider the type of God that sets up an earthly system of soul harvesting in which 3/4 souls are condemned to hell. I will not consider whether there were other options available to God to make the numbers more palatable to any sense of decency. And I certainly won't question my faith, because I know that when a question arises that seems contradictory to common sense, morality, and good reasoning, that God knows the answer and I'll be able to ask him in heaven. But for now, my finite human mind...

As George Carlin says about religion:

"In the Bull#### Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.

'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bull####,

big-time, major league bull####, you have to stand in awe of the all-time

champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No

contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull#### story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an

invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute

of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does

not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special

place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he

will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry

forever and ever 'til the end of time!

....But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money!

He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't

handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and

they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull#### story.

Holy ####!"

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv2yXh6pTDY...george%20carlin

Good points!

But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. We simply must trust in his eternal wisdom, and believe that he is doing what's best. After all, the bible tells us that He loves us and God wouldn't lie to us, would he? No, he wouldn't.

Therefore, I will not contemplate the implications of your post, implying that God has an attrition rate of 3 souls for every 1 saved. I will not consider the type of God that sets up an earthly system of soul harvesting in which 3/4 souls are condemned to hell. I will not consider whether there were other options available to God to make the numbers more palatable to any sense of decency. And I certainly won't question my faith, because I know that when a question arises that seems contradictory to common sense, morality, and good reasoning, that God knows the answer and I'll be able to ask him in heaven. But for now, my finite human mind...

Click to expand...

That reminds me of the Caveman lawyer on SNL of years ago. "My primitive mind can't grasp these new concepts you speak of".

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters. The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times. Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc.. A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan. How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment? This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God.

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved". This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity. Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4. This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets. Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting. During this time, billions of new people are born and have died. The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially.

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world. If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven. Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc..

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so?

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this? Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this. I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

Click to expand...

There's obviously no human being who can answer this question. So what's your point?

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters.  The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times.  Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc..  A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan.  How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment?  This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God. 

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved".  This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity.  Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4.  This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets.  Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting.  During this time, billions of new people are born and have died.  The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially. 

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world.  If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven.  Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc.. 

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so? 

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this?  Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this.  I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

Click to expand...

There's obviously no human being who can answer this question. So what's your point?

Click to expand...

To stimulate thought on things viewed from a different perspective.

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters. The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times. Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc.. A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan. How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment? This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God.

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved". This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity. Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4. This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets. Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting. During this time, billions of new people are born and have died. The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially.

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world. If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven. Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc..

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so?

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this? Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this. I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

Click to expand...

There's obviously no human being who can answer this question. So what's your point?

Click to expand...

To stimulate thought on things viewed from a different perspective.

Click to expand...

Or to stir up trouble?

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters. The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times. Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc.. A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan. How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment? This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God.

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved". This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity. Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4. This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets. Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting. During this time, billions of new people are born and have died. The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially.

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world. If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven. Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc..

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so?

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this? Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this. I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

Click to expand...

There's obviously no human being who can answer this question. So what's your point?

Click to expand...

To stimulate thought on things viewed from a different perspective.

Click to expand...

Or to stir up trouble?

Click to expand...

Questioning god's plan as assumed by christians is trouble??Only if you make it that way.

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters.  The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times.  Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc..  A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan.  How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment?  This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God. 

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved".  This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity.  Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4.  This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets.  Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting.  During this time, billions of new people are born and have died.  The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially. 

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world.  If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven.  Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc.. 

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so? 

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this?  Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this.  I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

Click to expand...

There's obviously no human being who can answer this question. So what's your point?

Click to expand...

To stimulate thought on things viewed from a different perspective.

Click to expand...

Or to stir up trouble?

Click to expand...

naa. You know I'm not into that sort of thing. Seriously, I saw something similar elsewhere and was just thinking about it. One of those "hmmm" things.

I think it would be interesting to round up most of the fundamental problems with the theology of christianity and put them all together. I think it'd make for a compelling case, and one that is not based on semantics, or the bible, but based on the concepts that the bible teaches and christians generally accept are true, that lie at the very base of beliefs. I've seen many good ones here on FBG's, better than most anywhere else I've encountered. Most other are petty, these are substantive.

As George Carlin says about religion:

"In the Bull#### Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.

'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bull####,

big-time, major league bull####, you have to stand in awe of the all-time

champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No

contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull#### story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an

invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute

of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does

not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special

place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he

will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry

forever and ever 'til the end of time!

....But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money!

He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't

handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and

they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull#### story.

Holy ####!"

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv2yXh6pTDY...george%20carlin

Click to expand...

And he should know, catch some of his early comedy about growing up Irish Catholic, before he turned into a bitter old man

:whoosh:

As George Carlin says about religion:

"In the Bull#### Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.

'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bull####,

big-time, major league bull####, you have to stand in awe of the all-time

champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No

contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull#### story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an

invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute

of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does

not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special

place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he

will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry

forever and ever 'til the end of time!

....But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money!

He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't

handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and

they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull#### story.

Holy ####!"

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv2yXh6pTDY...george%20carlin

Click to expand...

And he should know, catch some of his early comedy about growing up Irish Catholic, before he turned into a bitter old man

Click to expand...

He doesn't sound bitter to me.

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters.  The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times.  Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc..  A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan.  How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment?  This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God. 

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved".  This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity.  Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4.  This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets.  Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting.  During this time, billions of new people are born and have died.  The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially. 

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world.  If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven.  Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc.. 

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so? 

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this?  Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this.  I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

Click to expand...

There's obviously no human being who can answer this question. So what's your point?

Click to expand...

To stimulate thought on things viewed from a different perspective.

Click to expand...

Or to stir up trouble?

Click to expand...

yes, Cross, everything you don't agree with that might have anything to do with God is posted solely to cause trouble...

Why does God need to eat our delicious souls?

Why does God need to eat our delicious souls?

Click to expand...

That should be self-evident.Because we are delicious, and He is hungry.

As George Carlin says about religion:

"In the Bull#### Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.

'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bull####,

big-time, major league bull####, you have to stand in awe of the all-time

champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No

contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull#### story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an

invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute

of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does

not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special

place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he

will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry

forever and ever 'til the end of time!

....But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money!

He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't

handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and

they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull#### story.

Holy ####!"

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv2yXh6pTDY...george%20carlin

Click to expand...

And he should know, catch some of his early comedy about growing up Irish Catholic, before he turned into a bitter old man

Click to expand...

He doesn't sound bitter to me.

Click to expand...

Not in that clip but some of his other stuff lately is just not funny from my view pont

As George Carlin says about religion:

"In the Bull#### Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.

'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bull####,

big-time, major league bull####, you have to stand in awe of the all-time

champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No

contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull#### story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an

invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute

of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does

not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special

place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he

will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry

forever and ever 'til the end of time!

....But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money!

He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't

handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and

they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull#### story.

Holy ####!"

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv2yXh6pTDY...george%20carlin

Click to expand...

And he should know, catch some of his early comedy about growing up Irish Catholic, before he turned into a bitter old man

Click to expand...

He doesn't sound bitter to me.

Click to expand...

Not in that clip but some of his other stuff lately is just not funny from my view pont

Click to expand...

Well he's been recovering from heart surgery.

If those numbers are right, I'd love to be the firm that got the contract to expand hell, cause it's gonna need a HUGE renovation to accomodate all of us bastids.. I imagine satan would be a ##### to work for, but it would be such a lucrative contract, it might be worth it..

or maybe the Buddists are the chosen ones and the christians are wrong... hmm..

If those numbers are right, I'd love to be the firm that got the contract to expand hell, cause it's gonna need a HUGE renovation to accomodate all of us bastids.. I imagine satan would be a ##### to work for, but it would be such a lucrative contract, it might be worth it..

or maybe the Buddists are the chosen ones and the christians are wrong... hmm..

Click to expand...

Souls are invisible and weightless. They don't take up any room. We will all be burning to death in a fire the size of a lit birthday candle.

If those numbers are right, I'd love to be the firm that got the contract to expand hell, cause it's gonna need a HUGE renovation to accomodate all of us bastids..  I imagine satan would be a ##### to work for, but it would be such a lucrative contract, it might be worth it..

or maybe the Buddists are the chosen ones and the christians are wrong...  hmm.. 

Click to expand...

Souls are invisible and weightless. They don't take up any room. We will all be burning to death in a fire the size of a lit birthday candle.

Click to expand...

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters. The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times. Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc.. A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan. How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment? This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God.

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved". This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity. Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4. This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets. Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting. During this time, billions of new people are born and have died. The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially.

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world. If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven. Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc..

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so?

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this? Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this. I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

Click to expand...

Jay,If I understand you correctly, you seem to be taking a very humanistic position that would seem to indicate man in-and-of himself has some intrinsic value, and questioning why the God who created us would choose to take some of us with him for eternal communion with Him, and yet cut off the rest of us from Himself at some (arbitrary?) time of His choosing. In other words why would a 'just, righteous, loving' god allow many of his creatures to perish.

This doesnt sit well with humanism. I think that Humanistic thinking is usually well-intentioned, but takes a backwards view of where man's value and worth comes from. Humanism fails to understand that my inherent/intrinsic value comes from God and my relationship to Him. God loving me says absolutely nothing about my worth and value, but rather speaks volumes about Him.

Do you think that if there is a creator that the creation (mankind) has any business whatsoever demanding 'full and complete understanding/disclosure' of what He is doing and why? Do you think that an 'infinite' creator (capable of creating entire universes filled with living beings) and his 'plan' could possibly be 'fully and completely' understood by his 'finite' creation?

I don't but perhaps we differ there...

I will be the first to admit that I don't understand why God has chosen to reveal Himself in the manner in which He has. Nor do I fully understand why he will allow some to be saved and others not. However, based on God's revelation to us I understand that He is holy, merciful, and just so I will trust that He also knows much better than what is best.

I also know that orthodox Christianity requires Christ to be the savior for all 'fallen' humans. However, I also understand that orthodox Christianity believes that God also weighs the 'heart' of a man, and that old testament 'saints' were saved because righteousness was 'credited' to them, even though Christ's redmptive work had not yet come.

Therefore, why do you say that a person that has never heard of Christ is automatically doomed? I agree that we are all dead b/c of sin and have no life without God. Without Him I'm D-E-A-D. I'll even go so far as to say that those of us who openly reject Christ, are foolishly choosing to walk away from our only hope. But I don't think that you can assume that some who choose to reject Christ are still 'innocent'. Nor do I think it is right to assume that those who haven't heard of Christ are without any hope.

Again I don't claim to fully understand the creator's methodology or the specifics, but I do understand that I have a God-given purpose within His overall plan, and that is enough for me. Man was ultimately created for Him and His purposes and this world will ultimately be made new at the time of God's choosing. I will always seek to better understand God, but it's a dangerous thing to think that we can judge Him or know better than the one who made us.

The Question for our resident Christians thread by NCC had a short side bar, as often happens in these threads, between a couple of posters.  The post is here

The gist is that one poster thought it would be cool if the events in Israel were actually ushering in the end of times.  Another poster thought it was selfish to wish this knowing others will go to hell while he was in heaven, etc..  A different poster then said "that's their choice".

This raises a question about the math behind God's plan.   How many souls does God want or need before he decides to call an end to this whole human on earth experiment?  This is assuming the Christian God is the one true God. 

Is 40 million souls worshipping him for all eternity better than, say, 500?

Let's assume that 1 in 4 people throughout our world's history are "saved".  This is obviously a very high estimate as it is probably more like 1 in 10 or so, given the multiple religions in the world different from Christianity.  Maybe more than that, but let's assume 1 in 4.  This means that there are 3 lost human souls that end up in hell for every 1 God gets.  Since the ascension of Christ, God has extended his plan for almost 2000 years, and counting.  During this time, billions of new people are born and have died.  The longer the plan goes, the count destined for hell grows exponentially. 

Note that according to Pauline, or orthodox, christianity... for one to go to hell one only has to be born into this sinful world.  If they do nothing for their entire life, they miss out on heaven.  Same if they pick the wrong faith, or never hear the gospel, etc.. 

Nevermind knowing the whole outcome in advance.. but if you could see that you were losing souls to eternal torment at a 3 to 1 rate (generous estimate), wouldn't you stop the carnage after, shoot, a few hundred years or so? 

Why keep it going for thousands of years? What could God be gaining by doing this?  Is there a special soul out there he's waiting on to make a decision?

Satan must be at this.  I mean, surely he knows he's in for eternal punishment, but Moses on a pogo stick, he's dragging most of humanity down with him!

The coffee is getting low...

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There's obviously no human being who can answer this question. So what's your point?

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To stimulate thought on things viewed from a different perspective.

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Now that would be a miracle for some people.

Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

Maybe it's not who he is waiting to save. Maybe it's who he is waiting to punish.

Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

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Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

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Damn that whole velvet rope thing.

Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

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Which begs the question further... when is his quota met? In order to reach the threshold of "relatively few", billions of other misfortunate slobs are in for a rude awakening.

So what's your point?

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To stimulate thought on things viewed from a different perspective.

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Or to stir up trouble?

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Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

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Which begs the question further... when is his quota met? In order to reach the threshold of "relatively few", billions of other misfortunate slobs are in for a rude awakening.

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Where does your idea of a "quota" come from?

Nice to see my hiatus hasn't been long enough for these threads to come to an abrupt halt.

Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

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Which begs the question further... when is his quota met? In order to reach the threshold of "relatively few", billions of other misfortunate slobs are in for a rude awakening.

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What leads you to believe it's a quota compared to other possibilities?For example, why do you say a quota over a concept like life on earth is meant to separate the righteous from the unrighteous. Like a cosmic coin sorter, it doesn't stop when enough quarters are found, it stops when the supply of coins has been sorted.

Jay,

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be taking a very humanistic position that would seem to indicate man in-and-of himself has some intrinsic value, and questioning why the God who created us would choose to take some of us with him for eternal communion with Him, and yet cut off the rest of us from Himself at some (arbitrary?) time of His choosing. In other words why would a 'just, righteous, loving' god allow many of his creatures to perish.

This doesnt sit well with humanism. I think that Humanistic thinking is usually well-intentioned, but takes a backwards view of where man's value and worth comes from. Humanism fails to understand that my inherent/intrinsic value comes from God and my relationship to Him. God loving me says absolutely nothing about my worth and value, but rather speaks volumes about Him.

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So in other words, it's his BBQ and he sets the rules and we follow. I never questioned that. In fact, if he is omnimax as described, he knows all and all is part of his ultimate plan. If he chooses to lose 3 of every 4 souls to punish in hell or a lake of fire, more power to him. My question was rather rhetorical, in that there isn't a right or wrong answer. Simply put, how much is enough for him. Then I asked if you were in his shoes and knew what carnage was happening with your creation, would you let it continue and build up over millenia so that millions of your creation will end up in the punishment you created for your enemies who rebelled against you.

Do you think that if there is a creator that the creation (mankind) has any business whatsoever demanding 'full and complete understanding/disclosure' of what He is doing and why?

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Who said anything about "demanding full and complete understanding/disclosure of what he is doing and why?"?I simply posed a question.. not to God, but to you.

Do you think that an 'infinite' creator (capable of creating entire universes filled with living beings) and his 'plan' could possibly be 'fully and completely' understood by his 'finite' creation?

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Well, the bible tells us that God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2). If he wants us to have knowledge... But why are you going to the extreme by saying we require "Full and complete understanding" of everything about him? God can remain mysterious of course. I'm simply looking at the mathematics of what the bible describes as happening to mankind.

Don't you think the corporate answer of "our finite minds can't understand an infinite deity" is a bit worn? We don't have to have full understanding of everything. But this deal, like many others in the bible, doesn't make sense.

I also know that orthodox Christianity requires Christ to be the savior for all 'fallen' humans. However, I also understand that orthodox Christianity believes that God also weighs the 'heart' of a man, and that old testament 'saints' were saved because righteousness was 'credited' to them, even though Christ's redmptive work had not yet come.

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convenient interpretation doesn't make it true. Christ said he was the only way to the father... except of course for the OT characters who never heard of Jesus, so something had to be amended to allow them into heaven.As for their righteousness gaining them entry into heaven, Paul tells us that there is none righteousness.. no not one. He uses OT scripture (Psalms) to support his teaching that everyone is a sinner, hopeless before God.

But you are telling me that orthodox christianity believes and teaches that the OT saints were saved because of their righteousness. ok.

Therefore, why do you say that a person that has never heard of Christ is automatically doomed?

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There is nothing in the bible that states those people that have never heard the message of christ is saved. Again, Jesus said he was the only way to the father.. the only way. IOW, if you don't accept Jesus as who he says he is you aren't in. This presents difficulties for christians to answer the question of those in parts of the world that haven't heard the message. They rationalize that God is merciful and if they can't get the message, he'll make an exception. To believe this is speculation, however. Wishful thinking if you will. In contrast, Paul tells us, along with the Romans, that people are without excuse. They see God's glory all around them, since the creation of the world.. he puts it. So since man is without excuse, and since he is damned with the disease of sin, he must seek the only cure... Jesus

This is why the NT makes things difficult to reconcile. Orthodox christianity puts restrictions on things and paints us in a corner at times. I read the OT differently with regards to God's salvation.

I will always seek to better understand God, but it's a dangerous thing to think that we can judge Him or know better than the one who made us.

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Again, not judging him.. Just looking at the math.

I will be the first to admit that I don't understand why God has chosen to reveal Himself in the manner in which He has. Nor do I fully understand why he will allow some to be saved and others not. However, based on God's revelation to us I understand that He is holy, merciful, and just so I will trust that He also knows much better than what is best.

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Since he is merciful and just... and wants man to come to the truth as the bible tells us... I just wonder is he doing everything in his power to keep his most precious creation out of hell? What else could he do that might convince us to seek after him?

Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

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Which begs the question further... when is his quota met? In order to reach the threshold of "relatively few", billions of other misfortunate slobs are in for a rude awakening.

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Where does your idea of a "quota" come from?

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for lack of a better term.. Call it what you will: quota, limit, tally, whatever. You said Jesus knows only a few will enter heaven. Ok, how many is this few? The question is how many people will be born and perish before God is satisfied enough to stop the show? This is rhetorical of course. If he's willing to lose 1000 souls to eternal damnation in order to get 45 more into heaven, then that's great. Like I said before, it's his BBQ. But the question remains.

If he's willing to lose 1000 souls to eternal damnation in order to get 45 more into heaven, then that's great. Like I said before, it's his BBQ. But the question remains.

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I love my sinners drenched with BBQ sauce and cooked medium rare. I also prefer dark meat .

I think mainly, the answer is what David, the man after God's own heart said, "such knowledge is too high, I cannot attain it..." Ps. 139 somewhere.

To the point of God's will being, that He wants all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth, or in 2 Peter 3, where it is said that God is "not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance..." The simple answer is, that on this side of eternity, our will is greater than God's. He does not impose His wish upon us.

Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

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Which begs the question further... when is his quota met? In order to reach the threshold of "relatively few", billions of other misfortunate slobs are in for a rude awakening.

Click to expand...

Where does your idea of a "quota" come from?

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for lack of a better term.. Call it what you will: quota, limit, tally, whatever. You said Jesus knows only a few will enter heaven. Ok, how many is this few? The question is how many people will be born and perish before God is satisfied enough to stop the show? This is rhetorical of course. If he's willing to lose 1000 souls to eternal damnation in order to get 45 more into heaven, then that's great. Like I said before, it's his BBQ. But the question remains.

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But it's by definition an unanswerable question.

Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

Click to expand...

Which begs the question further... when is his quota met? In order to reach the threshold of "relatively few", billions of other misfortunate slobs are in for a rude awakening.

Click to expand...

What leads you to believe it's a quota compared to other possibilities?For example, why do you say a quota over a concept like life on earth is meant to separate the righteous from the unrighteous. Like a cosmic coin sorter, it doesn't stop when enough quarters are found, it stops when the supply of coins has been sorted.

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And christians are "righteous"? You may have meant unbelievers from those that believe. To believe doesn't make you righteous, it just means you believe what the bible and your pastor/priest/Rev tells you. There are many great, loving people in this world who do wonderful things in the name of humanity.. that aren't christian believers. In contrast, there are many christian believers who have no regard for their fellow men. In this case, the supply of coins is from the creator. It's endless or can stop tomorrow, at the creator's will. IOW, he can keep the flow of coins coming as long as he wants. So again, when he reaches his desired quota (or limit) of coins and says enough is enough, the question remains. Would you continue to allow bad coins to be made knowing before hand you'll only sort 1 in 4 to the keeper pile?

Jesus Himself said that relatively few people would get into heaven, so it's not like this is some new concept.

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Which begs the question further... when is his quota met? In order to reach the threshold of "relatively few", billions of other misfortunate slobs are in for a rude awakening.

Click to expand...

Where does your idea of a "quota" come from?

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for lack of a better term.. Call it what you will: quota, limit, tally, whatever. You said Jesus knows only a few will enter heaven. Ok, how many is this few? The question is how many people will be born and perish before God is satisfied enough to stop the show? This is rhetorical of course. If he's willing to lose 1000 souls to eternal damnation in order to get 45 more into heaven, then that's great. Like I said before, it's his BBQ. But the question remains.

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But it's by definition an unanswerable question.

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Part of it is, yes. Just meant as food for thought. The last part is answerable though. If you were God, would you continue to allow this to go on for millenia after millenia? If you say yes, why? If you say no, would you say no because you believe you would be more merciful?

[quote name=Jayrok' date='Jul 26 2006, 10:42 PM

In this case, the supply of coins is from the creator. It's endless or can stop tomorrow, at the creator's will. IOW, he can keep the flow of coins coming as long as he wants. So again, when he reaches his desired quota (or limit) of coins and says enough is enough, the question remains. Would you continue to allow bad coins to be made knowing before hand you'll only sort 1 in 4 to the keeper pile?

You seem to be building a straw man here. You have just said that God's will is to have all people saved, but that he is making coins with the knowledge of how they will end up.

I think mainly, the answer is what David, the man after God's own heart said, "such knowledge is too high, I cannot attain it..." Ps. 139 somewhere.

To the point of God's will being, that He wants all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth, or in 2 Peter 3, where it is said that God is "not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance..." The simple answer is, that on this side of eternity, our will is greater than God's. He does not impose His wish upon us.

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Perhaps. But it is still his will that we be saved. It seems that his will is always done. But I know, play on words.. The point of the post you are referencing isn't that our will is greater than God's here on earth. This isn't about free will. It was about God's desire for all men to come to the knowledge of truth. To this I'd wonder if God wants us to come to know the truth, then come out and show us the truth. We rely on the ancient writings of superstitious Hebrew tribesmen and ancient story tellers who lived during a time of myth and magic. Then we are told of a church tradition passed down through the centuries where things were changed, added on, omitted, etc.. on to the last few hundred years where we branched off into various different sects who all believe they have the correct interpretation of this collection of ancient pious writings.

You seem to be building a straw man here. You have just said that God's will is to have all people saved, but that he is making coins with the knowledge of how they will end up.

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Not sure I understand your point. Based on the assumed scenario of 1 in 4 being saved in the OP, God knows at the moment he stops the show the amount of folks damned. So he knows, based on the scenario, that 3 of 4 "coins" will be bad. The bible says that God's will is to have all men saved. I was referring to that. If he is all-knowing and knows how they will end up, that makes the quotes in Timothy and Peter silly. Maybe he's not all-knowing..

I think mainly, the answer is what David, the man after God's own heart said, "such knowledge is too high, I cannot attain it..."  Ps. 139 somewhere.

To the point of God's will being, that He wants all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth, or in 2 Peter 3, where it is said that God is "not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance..."  The simple answer is, that on this side of eternity, our will is greater than God's.  He does not impose His wish upon us.

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Perhaps. But it is still his will that we be saved. It seems that his will is always done. But I know, play on words.. The point of the post you are referencing isn't that our will is greater than God's here on earth. This isn't about free will. It was about God's desire for all men to come to the knowledge of truth. To this I'd wonder if God wants us to come to know the truth, then come out and show us the truth. We rely on the ancient writings of superstitious Hebrew tribesmen and ancient story tellers who lived during a time of myth and magic. Then we are told of a church tradition passed down through the centuries where things were changed, added on, omitted, etc.. on to the last few hundred years where we branched off into various different sects who all believe they have the correct interpretation of this collection of ancient pious writings.

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What would do it for you? A visit from the dead? A bona fide miracle? The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers that they might believe before they ended up with him. Abraham told him that they had Moses and the prophets (the Bible). He was candid and told Abe that they wouldn't believe the Bible. The same writer that told us God is not willing that any should perish, Peter, said that God has furnished us with all that we need for salvation. Despite the variances on tradition and hand me down creeds that you cite, there is some remarkable preservation of the Gospels and epistles going on here.

In fact, without the existance of the Bible, me and you would not even be having this conversation. At least we have a foundation to build on. So why not start with that. There is plenty there for us to consider about God's will and repentance for example.

You seem to be building a straw man here.  You have just said that God's will is to have all people saved, but that he is making coins with the knowledge of how they will end up.

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Not sure I understand your point. Based on the assumed scenario of 1 in 4 being saved in the OP, God knows at the moment he stops the show the amount of folks damned. So he knows, based on the scenario, that 3 of 4 "coins" will be bad. The bible says that God's will is to have all men saved. I was referring to that. If he is all-knowing and knows how they will end up, that makes the quotes in Timothy and Peter silly. Maybe he's not all-knowing..

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I know you aren't speaking of free will here, but that is the answer. Choice. The difficulty is reconciling my choice with omnipotence/omnipresence/omniscience, but I do know my part at least.

I think mainly, the answer is what David, the man after God's own heart said, "such knowledge is too high, I cannot attain it..."  Ps. 139 somewhere.

To the point of God's will being, that He wants all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth, or in 2 Peter 3, where it is said that God is "not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance..."  The simple answer is, that on this side of eternity, our will is greater than God's.  He does not impose His wish upon us.

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Perhaps. But it is still his will that we be saved. It seems that his will is always done. But I know, play on words.. The point of the post you are referencing isn't that our will is greater than God's here on earth. This isn't about free will. It was about God's desire for all men to come to the knowledge of truth. To this I'd wonder if God wants us to come to know the truth, then come out and show us the truth. We rely on the ancient writings of superstitious Hebrew tribesmen and ancient story tellers who lived during a time of myth and magic. Then we are told of a church tradition passed down through the centuries where things were changed, added on, omitted, etc.. on to the last few hundred years where we branched off into various different sects who all believe they have the correct interpretation of this collection of ancient pious writings.

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What would do it for you? A visit from the dead? A bona fide miracle? The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers that they might believe before they ended up with him. Abraham told him that they had Moses and the prophets (the Bible). He was candid and told Abe that they wouldn't believe the Bible. The same writer that told us God is not willing that any should perish, Peter, said that God has furnished us with all that we need for salvation. Despite the variances on tradition and hand me down creeds that you cite, there is some remarkable preservation of the Gospels and epistles going on here.

In fact, without the existance of the Bible, me and you would not even be having this conversation. At least we have a foundation to build on. So why not start with that. There is plenty there for us to consider about God's will and repentance for example.

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A visit from God/Jesus.. an angel.. something. Lazarus' story isn't historical.. a metaphor. As for the Israelites, doesn't that strike you as strange? That they had God in pillars of fire, women turning into salt, Great seas parting, mana from heaven, Quall piled 3 feet high all around for miles for food, and a host of other supernatural events. Yet they still carved golden calfs and fashioned/worshipped other idols? This tells me that those stories aren't historically true. Why would you put hope in a wooden idol if you just saw God in his power in person? It doesn't make sense.

As for now, I say "Try me". Maybe the Israelites were just ignorant. I personally don't believe those stories are historical. Evidence is that they still would choose to follow a wooden idol. That's absurd. Maybe this generation is more observant. Try us.

Yes, they are well preserved. But how is this surprising? When you have generation after generation with a great stake in making sure it is preserved.. especially when the generation has the power of government at its disposal.

Finally, the bible as a starting point. I was a christian for a long time. The bible and studying it is what caused me to wane in the first place. God's plan of salvation has different paths depending on which parts you read and heed, and which you choose to brush aside.

You seem to be building a straw man here.  You have just said that God's will is to have all people saved, but that he is making coins with the knowledge of how they will end up.

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Not sure I understand your point. Based on the assumed scenario of 1 in 4 being saved in the OP, God knows at the moment he stops the show the amount of folks damned. So he knows, based on the scenario, that 3 of 4 "coins" will be bad. The bible says that God's will is to have all men saved. I was referring to that. If he is all-knowing and knows how they will end up, that makes the quotes in Timothy and Peter silly. Maybe he's not all-knowing..

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I know you aren't speaking of free will here, but that is the answer. Choice. The difficulty is reconciling my choice with omnipotence/omnipresence/omniscience, but I do know my part at least.

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and I wish you the best.

You seem to be building a straw man here.  You have just said that God's will is to have all people saved, but that he is making coins with the knowledge of how they will end up.

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Not sure I understand your point. Based on the assumed scenario of 1 in 4 being saved in the OP, God knows at the moment he stops the show the amount of folks damned. So he knows, based on the scenario, that 3 of 4 "coins" will be bad. The bible says that God's will is to have all men saved. I was referring to that. If he is all-knowing and knows how they will end up, that makes the quotes in Timothy and Peter silly. Maybe he's not all-knowing..

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I know you aren't speaking of free will here, but that is the answer. Choice. The difficulty is reconciling my choice with omnipotence/omnipresence/omniscience, but I do know my part at least.

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and I wish you the best.

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Thank you. I will pray for you.

Religion is silly, obviously a falsehood and at times utterly laughable.

Unless of course, it is YOUR religion. Then it is unquestionable faith that leads to ultimate truth in utter contradiction to all human capabilities of thought and reason.

Wait, what was the question?