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The Mathematics of God's plan (1 Viewer)

Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)
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Hmmm, I guess I'd have to know how you define "fundamentalist" before I would agree on this. No doubt I'm pretty conservative theologically, but I irritate a lot of the fundys I know because I don't think drinking is a sin and I won't buy into Pre-Trib eschatology all the way, along with a few other things.
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By fundamentalist I mean basically inerrentist, conservative that believes the bible is for the most part literal (i.e. the flood, genesis), with some allegorical symbolism. But I would have guessed that you were a pre-trib rapture kind of guy. To be honest, my upbringing in the church was patterned closer to your beliefs than anyone else on this board. I believe that I grew up with pastors pretty similar to your philosophy and probable way of preaching.My father is closer to the "fundy" that you probably think I mean. He's the fire/brimstone rabid fundamentalist and it's his way or he doesn't want to hear it... Bless his heart.

 
"Why is it, do you suppose, that God saw fit to answer your prayer of being able to meet your debts as you've budgeted in your house, but he doesn't answer other, patently urgent prayers from others?"

I can't fully explain, nor would any answer from me be fitting for anyone faced with a situation like your niece's. God is sovereign and will have you do what is truly best for all in the long term, which is sometimes very painful in the short term. Also, we are in a world where every decision is not actually made by God. He gave the world to man to run (hence it's current state). He will only take control of what people let him control of. The ultimate course of the world is in his hands, but again, he mostly relies on people to obey him. Sometimes He steps in and answers prayer, but other times He doesn't. I've seen people suffer much more by living their life than dying a painful death would have been.

"In addition, what would you say if you learned that there are many couples in the same boat as you... that are not christian and don't pray to anyone.. that get the same job offers and end up blessed somehow with just enough money to live in a particular city? Do you think that christians are the only group of people that find living hard sometimes?"

I am very aware that there are many people from all walks of life that have tough or similar situations. Mine were significant to me personally and the results were very uncommon. Who gets offered more money after already accepting the job at a given rate? I certainly wasn't going to work for a charity and they had no idea what my situation was. Like I said, it wasn't like my wife and I we're like...you know we'd just like a change of scenery. Or...how about you just stay at home with the baby, I'm sure someone will offer me a better job. The point of the stories were, God lead, we followed and it worked out just right. I'm not saying I deserve anything more than anyone else since I am a good praying Christian, because I certainly don't and often fail at being good, or praying, or being a Christian. The point was that God revealed himself to me more in these situations.
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For future reference, you may want to watch how you phrase the answer to the questions of "why did God let my newborn child die". The best answer is "I don't know", which is correct. Suggesting that your God took it in his hands to let a child die rather than grow up in someone's house is a hard thing to sell. If you said that to me after my child died, I'd tell your God to go to hell. Why not have the child not be born at all? God's omniscent and omnipotent, isn't he? Why not have that particular egg not fertilize? "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't help either. God works in mysterious ways that allows endless pain and suffering? Great. Fantastic God you got there. As far as being led, I've been there. Saved, devout, went to church (still do, BTW), bible study, evangelized others, mission trips, the whole nine yards. The bottom line is, you still don't have any more actual proof (which is none) than the Muslims, Jews, astrologers, worshippers of the sun god Ra, worshippers of Greek and Roman gods. You worry about gaps in evolution? Man, all you've got is gaps. There's not any real proof Chrisianity is what they say it is to have a gap between.

I made a lot of good friends during my "tenure" as a devout Christian, met a lot of good people and enjoyed life. But when I came to the realization I couldn't deceive myself anymore about all the things in Christianity, I felt foolish for having wasted a part of my life dealing with all of it. A part of me wishes I could take it back, or least enjoyed more of life.

Anyway, good luck to you. Thank your lucky stars for your good fortune in life.

 
Numbers 20:11

"And Moses lifted up his hand, and with Jayrod he smote Jayrok twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also."

 
Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)
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Hmmm, I guess I'd have to know how you define "fundamentalist" before I would agree on this. No doubt I'm pretty conservative theologically, but I irritate a lot of the fundys I know because I don't think drinking is a sin and I won't buy into Pre-Trib eschatology all the way, along with a few other things.
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By fundamentalist I mean basically inerrentist, conservative that believes the bible is for the most part literal (i.e. the flood, genesis), with some allegorical symbolism.
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OK, with that I would agree. I guess "fundamentalist" has become different things to different people over the years. Your definition is the more traditional one. And an accurate description of my beliefs.
 
I made a lot of good friends during my "tenure" as a devout Christian, met a lot of good people and enjoyed life. But when I came to the realization I couldn't deceive myself anymore about all the things in Christianity, I felt foolish for having wasted a part of my life dealing with all of it. A part of me wishes I could take it back, or least enjoyed more of life.
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What makes you think that being a Christian means that you give up any enjoyment of life?
 
I made a lot of good friends during my "tenure" as a devout Christian, met a lot of good people and enjoyed life.  But when I came to the realization I couldn't deceive myself anymore about all the things in Christianity, I felt foolish for having wasted a part of my life dealing with all of it.  A part of me wishes I could take it back, or least enjoyed more of life. 
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What makes you think that being a Christian means that you give up any enjoyment of life?
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There are experiences I should have had, or had more of, but didn't due to attempting to serve God. Now, the time has passed. You only get one chance to live this life and I feel I missed out on some of life's experiences. Like I said, I enjoyed life, but I didn't do all that I should have, or could have.
 
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I'm sure there are some I missed.
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:mellow:
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Maybe we should have a thread where everyone can post and claim their individual affiliation:Christian: Name your denomination if you subscribe to one, and which of the following you see yourself mostly:

Fundy - The bible is inerrent, mostly literal in translation and nonbelievers will shack in hell

Moderate - Hell is real, miracles happen, but the bible has some mistakes due to human tampering

liberal - Jesus was cool and I live by his teachings. Many of the stories are meant as allegory and probably not historical, but I believe he literally died and rose again a few days later.

Other ultra-liberal - The bible is bunk, but There's something about Jesus that makes me believe in heaven and I want to go.

Other - Fill in your own beliefs

NonChristan:

Agnostic - Don't believe in the God described in the bible necessarily, but don't discount the possibility of a higher being. I just don't know.

Weak Atheist - Don't believe in the existence of deities. But won't go as far as to rule it out.

Strong Atheist - Firmly believe that there is no god or deity, period.

Other - explain

Other - Muslim, Wiccan or other religious affiliation non-christian.

For these purposes, we are just talking about christians and nontheists. No offense to anyone else associated with a different religion.

It's hard to remember what everyone sides with. The ones listed are ones usually involved in threads about christianity. I missed some, like Fightingchick too. She's close the CE and On the Rocks IMO. She only uses the KJV bible IIRC (I know CE doesn't).

Norville, I can't remember where you might put yourself. You don't really argue scripture or even issues (you can correct me if I'm wrong), but you add lines here and there for fun. I'd say you are close to Mr. KIA... and he's a "first rounder" in my book.

 
Honestly, all this talk of "I believe God wanted me to do this, so I did it and it worked" scares the #### out of me.

What if your kid is sick, and you for some reason 'feel' God wants to to not bring him to a hospital for treatment, and then your kid dies.

Will you then say, "God wanted to take my child".

That just doesn't feel right to me.
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Having recently told a "God wanted me to" story, this may sound hypocritical, but I agree. I knew a guy that that exact scenario happened to. He was a fanatical Christian that went to the same church I did. He was in his 20's and I was in Jr. High, but he worked with the youth group, so I did interact with him some. Anyway, he got married and his wife got pregnant. He "felt" God wanted them to have the baby at home, so they did, but it was not breathing when it was born. Instead of calling for an ambulance, he prayed for the baby for a couple of hours, but nothing happened and by then the baby was dead. It was a pretty messed up situation. I was going to a different church by then and have never seen the guy since. IMO, I'd say the bigger the risks involved with what you think God is telling you, the more you'd better make sure that it's God. When it comes to risking a life, God will have to speak to me in a burning bush before I'd do anything like that.One of the most important and basic ways God speaks to us is through the intelligence and common sense He created us with.
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That's a tragic story. It's unfortunate that this type of thing happens in a country where children like that could have been saved had the parents acted. I wonder what makes his experience different than anothers. I mean, he "Felt" God wanted him and based on the lengths he was willing to go (resulting in his child's death), he was thoroughly convinced. Yet, since the child died, we conclude that God really wasn't talking to him. So if something wonderful happens, God had his hands in the event. But if something goes wrong as a result of natural events, then God must not have been in it. Or it wasn't his will. God can't lose here.

As for God speaking to you in a burning bush. That's not a bad idea... in fact, for some people all it might take is just one more burning bush

An article exploring why God seems to remain hidden.

 
Hey Jayrok, how do you and your wife discuss religious things? Seems like the whole difference in philosophies would really get in the way. Is she a fervent believer, or just a Sunday attender? Does faith play a big role in her life?

I ask because I find it difficult to discuss issues of faith and prayer with people I'm close to who share the belief that prayer works and faith is the answer. Was wondering how things go with you guys, or if there is a "don't ask don't tell" policy in the J house.

 
Larry Boy - Larry is in a class all by himself.  When he first came on the scene I thought, damn.. this kid is clueless about what he's talking about.  He is labeled as a legalist because he believes christians should follow the actions of the early apostles in worship, baptism, etc.. he believes works are necessary along with faith, for salvation.  As time went on, I saw LB change a bit.  He was so zealous about his beliefs and he admirably clung to them like a life preserver.  He argued so fervently, christians began to head him off at the pass and tried to bring him in line with mainstream thought.  LB wouldn't have any of that.  I admire LB for his tenacity, though I think he is misguided.  But you can't deny his relentless desire to get his point across. 
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:scary thought:my thoughts are infinately more mainstream than many who have similar beliefs to me... lol

oh yeah, and most would describe me as "fundamentalist", too, as I follow the commands in the Bible and tend to take the stories literally (although I don't really care if they are literal or allegorical in nature)

 
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Hey Jayrok, how do you and your wife discuss religious things? Seems like the whole difference in philosophies would really get in the way. Is she a fervent believer, or just a Sunday attender? Does faith play a big role in her life?

I ask because I find it difficult to discuss issues of faith and prayer with people I'm close to who share the belief that prayer works and faith is the answer. Was wondering how things go with you guys, or if there is a "don't ask don't tell" policy in the J house.
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Good question. We generally don't discuss. Although, to be fair, it's gotten somewhat better over the last few months. She is a devout christian, but not necessarily "religous" if you know what I mean. We don't really discuss much biblical stuff because she doesn't really know a lot of the details, quite frankly. She believes Jesus is in her heart and that's enough for her. She doesn't care if the bible is a man-made, has errors/contradictions or not. She doesn't know much about the OT or the jewish history... or early christian history. She believes God is love.It used to upset her when we talked about it, so I pretty much clamed up around her. That's why I talk so much about it on websites... I can't talk about it in my house, which was very frustrating to me. I didn't have a sounding board to discuss ideas. But she knows where I stand for now and we certainly love each other. She just continues to pray, you know. The frustrating thing to me is, she don't want to hear explanation. If I bring up basically anything, she goes "la la la la with her fingers in her ear".

She actually told me she was happy and her ignorance was bliss. So there's no reason for me to try and deconvert her or something. I would never do that. At the same time, she's backed off from pressuring me if you know what I mean. She thought/thinks it's just some phase I'm going through and I'll snap out of it anytime now. She used to say little things like "That worked out well, we need to thank Jesus, huh".. But she doesn't discuss the bible. And she cringes if or when we attend a sunday school class where we are studying a book in the bible. She used to elbow me and tell me to keep my mouth shut. I told her I wouldn't make waves.

But since we've moved to Illinois, I haven't been to any churches out here. She knows how I feel and said she didn't need church to walk with Jesus. But she wants to go at some point.

I agree that it is really difficult to discuss religion with loved ones who fervently believe. I won't even bring it up to my father... no chance. As for the wife, we'll be fine. But time will tell I suppose because faith is a big part of her life. That's why she doesn't want to talk about it. She feels like God will bring me back before It gets to the point where she begins to doubt her faith. But again, I don't want to talk her out of her faith. She's happy in it, and she's tolerant of me.

 
JR,

in a thread a week or so ago titled something to the affect of "Once Saved Always Saved".

just out of curiosity, do you believe you are "saved"? just wondering if you believe you are since you said you accepted Jesus once and now no longer do.

 
JR,

in a thread a week or so ago titled something to the affect of "Once Saved Always Saved".

just out of curiosity, do you believe you are "saved"?  just wondering if you believe you are since you said you accepted Jesus once and now no longer do.
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Good question. In the christian sense, the short answer is I don't know. In the agnostic sense, I'd ask saved from what? But assuming christianity is true... I don't know. I'll tell you this, I meant it when I asked Jesus into my heart those years ago and I believed I was saved. I was taught to believe in once saved always saved, but there are verses that might suggest otherwise.

Of course the majority of christians I know, even on this board as well, believe that I was never really saved in the first place... since they can't fathom someone walking away from a faith that's true. IOW it just doesn't work like that.

For those that believe in once saved always saved... since you believe that I was never really "saved" to begin with... had I not walked away from faith, but continued to pray and witness for God, live for God, etc... Would I have still went to hell because I was under a false sense of salvation? I mean if I was never saved to begin with and living a lie, was I damned?

I wonder how many other people are out there who just "think" they are saved..

 
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JR,

in a thread a week or so ago titled something to the affect of "Once Saved Always Saved".

just out of curiosity, do you believe you are "saved"?  just wondering if you believe you are since you said you accepted Jesus once and now no longer do.
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Good question. In the christian sense, the short answer is I don't know. In the agnostic sense, I'd ask saved from what? But assuming christianity is true... I don't know. I'll tell you this, I meant it when I asked Jesus into my heart those years ago and I believed I was saved. I was taught to believe in once saved always saved, but there are verses that might suggest otherwise.

Of course the majority of christians I know, even on this board as well, believe that I was never really saved in the first place... since they can't fathom someone walking away from a faith that's true. IOW it just doesn't work like that.

For those that believe in once saved always saved... since you believe that I was never "saved" to begin with... had I not walked away from faith, but continued to pray and witness for God, live for God, etc... Would I have still went to hell because I was under a false sense of salvation? I mean if I was never saved to begin with and living a lie, was I damned?

I wonder how many other people are out there who just "think" they are saved..
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let's start with the people who tell you that :bs: story about how you weren't really saved because you fell away...
 
Jayrok said:
I'd say you are close to Mr. KIA... and he's a "first rounder" in my book.
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Oooh! FFA Christian draft? IN!Psychopav - Roman CatholicOrthodox Christian1.1 - Gold Dragon (wherefore art thou, Gold Dragon! :cry: )
 
rolyaTy said:
Good points!But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. We simply must trust in his eternal wisdom, and believe that he is doing what's best. After all, the bible tells us that He loves us and God wouldn't lie to us, would he? No, he wouldn't.
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I only read the first couple of posts, and not to pick on you rolyaTy because billions would agree with your statement, but this little tidbit just sounds so preposterous to me that I really can't even begin to imagine myself ever believing in god.That is all.
 
Assuming that:

-God exists

-We have knowledge of the essence of God, examined through organized religion

-The holy texts organized religion are accurate

Then it becomes easy to say that "We can't comprehend God's plan" and begin to rationalize events in our lives that further strengthen our beliefs.

Problem is those three initial suppositions. Which is why the discussion can't ever be fully understood from both sides. Belief in God itself isn't a rational belief - it's something different. It's something called "faith". It's a self-supporting set of ideas that are often reassuring and comforting. Being able to describe "faith" outside the context of organized religion is difficult because it requires the persepctive where the self-supporting ideas within religion in regards to God and "faith" are necessarily removed.

Personally, I find that the belief in the existence of God and the belief that life isn't the sum of random events at the atomic level to be preferable to any alternatives I've come across. However, for some reason, I take particular offense to the notion that God intervenes in our affairs in the form of "prophets", "messiahs", and the like. History has shown that this process of linking spiritual belief to specific worldly persons or events has nearly universally been for the purpose of exerting control over society by some ruling power (be it political or religious in nature).

The entire idea that God imbues special powers to these holy icons seems contrary to the ideas of how and why He may have created us. The reason why there is suffering in the world - why there is "evil" - is because we all have free will. That freedom is taken away when someone has the ability to perform miracles. It's even taken away when God "tells us" things about morality, right and wrong, redemption and punishment. No - it doesn't make sense that God would influence us in that way. If He is omnipotent, such an intervening act would be meaningless. Organized religion tries to justify these positions by saying God "loves" us, and that their way is the only way to "reward". Doesn't make sense - at all.

 
Homer J Simpson said:
rolyaTy said:
Good points!But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. We simply must trust in his eternal wisdom, and believe that he is doing what's best. After all, the bible tells us that He loves us and God wouldn't lie to us, would he? No, he wouldn't.
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I only read the first couple of posts, and not to pick on you rolyaTy because billions would agree with your statement, but this little tidbit just sounds so preposterous to me that I really can't even begin to imagine myself ever believing in god.That is all.
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I read that post as being sarcastic.
 
adonis said:
Homer J Simpson said:
rolyaTy said:
Good points!But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. We simply must trust in his eternal wisdom, and believe that he is doing what's best. After all, the bible tells us that He loves us and God wouldn't lie to us, would he? No, he wouldn't.
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I only read the first couple of posts, and not to pick on you rolyaTy because billions would agree with your statement, but this little tidbit just sounds so preposterous to me that I really can't even begin to imagine myself ever believing in god.That is all.
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I read that post as being sarcastic.
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Oops, maybe it was. But I thought rolyaTy was a big religious guy...I couldn't read any further though. Anyway, I stand by my statement that a lot of folks believe that crap. I really can't, though.
 
Homer J Simpson said:
adonis said:
Homer J Simpson said:
rolyaTy said:
Good points!But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. We simply must trust in his eternal wisdom, and believe that he is doing what's best. After all, the bible tells us that He loves us and God wouldn't lie to us, would he? No, he wouldn't.
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I only read the first couple of posts, and not to pick on you rolyaTy because billions would agree with your statement, but this little tidbit just sounds so preposterous to me that I really can't even begin to imagine myself ever believing in god.That is all.
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I read that post as being sarcastic.
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Oops, maybe it was. But I thought rolyaTy was a big religious guy...I couldn't read any further though. Anyway, I stand by my statement that a lot of folks believe that crap. I really can't, though.
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Maybe used to be, seems agnostic now, check out Rev's thread and his questions there. He's been in many other threads going against christians.
 
I haven't been to any Christian churches or studied much of it other then when I was a kid. Most of which I have forgotten.

My relationship with God now kind of feels like father and son. A son or daughter like we all are. I don't worship him. I love him for creating life and being there for me. Providing me with strength. I try to reciprocate by acting in a way that would make him proud.

I would not bow before God but give him a hug. Not because I think I'm an equal but because the God I believe in would not want me to.

I'm pretty ignorant of the Christion religion but would this way of perceiving God be advised against by Christians?

 
Jayrod said:
This is my first post on this site, but here's some thoughts I have on this topic:
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Hard to believe this was 8 years ago.....man time flies.

I still need to get a beer with Jayrok before this Ebola thing takes over. Probably my favorite poster (besides SWC of course) and has made me think more than any other. Funny that my very first exchange was with him.

 
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Jayrok said:
If we were to have a scale, so to speak... I'd probably vote for something like this: (note - this is not a scale of good christian to weak or poor christian... it's how they appear, to me at least, between LB and Crosseyed, who I would say are polar opposites)

Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)

On the Rocks - Leans towards fundy for the most part... King James Version only type. I know... scary

dgreen - seems to lean toward fundy

Politician Spock - Set in his ways.. good arguments. More philosophical than straightline fundy

Bailiver - Seems to be mainstream quasi-fundy.

Black Box - Hard to gage BB. Not enough info exchange. He's similar to Bailiver

John 14:6 - About the same as the previous two. Hard to gage. He comes and goes in threads

Prosopis - Catholic with catholic views. Likes to cut and paste catholic doctrine.

The Commish - When I first read his posts, TC was leaning higher towards CE. But now I'm not so sure. I feel like he's taking more arguments in and thinking these days. He's one of LB's discussion partners lately.

IvanK - Smart and articulate. He's not a fundy, seems fairly liberal in his beliefs

Joe Bryant - Yes, JB is a christian. He seems to be pretty liberal and doesn't really participate in christian threads that tend to go off track with discussion. I'm sure he's busy with his business and running FBG, especially this time of year.

Zalf - For some reason, I mistook him for Sinrman and thought he was a JWitness. Zalf and I have argued from time to time. He's no fundy and takes things in stride. Seems the kind you could sit and discuss things over a beer.

Proninja - See above. I like the ninja. Down to earth and likes beer. We could strike up some good conversations in a bar somewhere.

Mr. Know it all - Mr. KIA is cool. He doesn't pretend to know everything, despite his username. He speaks his peace and goes with the flow.

Bottomfeeder Sports - Hard to figure him out. He's often arguing with christians over the bible. His favorite verse to discuss, I believe, is in Ephesians about man not hating his own body. BFS claims he's a christian, but often argues like he's a skeptic. He believes in God and Jesus, but not a lot of the smoke and mirrors presented in the bible. That's my opinion though, which could be wrong.

Larry Boy - Larry is in a class all by himself. When he first came on the scene I thought, damn.. this kid is clueless about what he's talking about. He is labeled as a legalist because he believes christians should follow the actions of the early apostles in worship, baptism, etc.. he believes works are necessary along with faith, for salvation. As time went on, I saw LB change a bit. He was so zealous about his beliefs and he admirably clung to them like a life preserver. He argued so fervently, christians began to head him off at the pass and tried to bring him in line with mainstream thought. LB wouldn't have any of that. I admire LB for his tenacity, though I think he is misguided. But you can't deny his relentless desire to get his point across.

I'm sure there are some I missed. It's not intentional, it's getting late and this was off the top of my head. And I may be wrong on some or all. It's just how I tend to see them based on past thread discussions.

I would also like to say that I admire each of them. One or two have just a touch of a superiority complex, but all in all, they are all great guys. There are a few that would make great skeptics. Maybe one day they'll come around.
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We have the offdee scale and the Jayrok scale.

 
Jayrod said:
The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant. However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured. I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get. Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed. I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need. Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2) When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby. Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three. We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job. Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work. Again, too perfect to be coincidence.
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were one of these jobs the one you were fired from because you were watching porn all day at work? if so, that's a hell of a way to thank God for looking out for you.

 
jomar said:
Jayrod said:
The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant. However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured. I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get. Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed. I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need. Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2) When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby. Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three. We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job. Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work. Again, too perfect to be coincidence.
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were one of these jobs the one you were fired from because you were watching porn all day at work? if so, that's a hell of a way to thank God for looking out for you.
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No. But even if it was, what is your point?

 
dgreen said:
Jayrok said:
If we were to have a scale, so to speak... I'd probably vote for something like this: (note - this is not a scale of good christian to weak or poor christian... it's how they appear, to me at least, between LB and Crosseyed, who I would say are polar opposites)

Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)

On the Rocks - Leans towards fundy for the most part... King James Version only type. I know... scary

dgreen - seems to lean toward fundy

Politician Spock - Set in his ways.. good arguments. More philosophical than straightline fundy

Bailiver - Seems to be mainstream quasi-fundy.

Black Box - Hard to gage BB. Not enough info exchange. He's similar to Bailiver

John 14:6 - About the same as the previous two. Hard to gage. He comes and goes in threads

Prosopis - Catholic with catholic views. Likes to cut and paste catholic doctrine.

The Commish - When I first read his posts, TC was leaning higher towards CE. But now I'm not so sure. I feel like he's taking more arguments in and thinking these days. He's one of LB's discussion partners lately.

IvanK - Smart and articulate. He's not a fundy, seems fairly liberal in his beliefs

Joe Bryant - Yes, JB is a christian. He seems to be pretty liberal and doesn't really participate in christian threads that tend to go off track with discussion. I'm sure he's busy with his business and running FBG, especially this time of year.

Zalf - For some reason, I mistook him for Sinrman and thought he was a JWitness. Zalf and I have argued from time to time. He's no fundy and takes things in stride. Seems the kind you could sit and discuss things over a beer.

Proninja - See above. I like the ninja. Down to earth and likes beer. We could strike up some good conversations in a bar somewhere.

Mr. Know it all - Mr. KIA is cool. He doesn't pretend to know everything, despite his username. He speaks his peace and goes with the flow.

Bottomfeeder Sports - Hard to figure him out. He's often arguing with christians over the bible. His favorite verse to discuss, I believe, is in Ephesians about man not hating his own body. BFS claims he's a christian, but often argues like he's a skeptic. He believes in God and Jesus, but not a lot of the smoke and mirrors presented in the bible. That's my opinion though, which could be wrong.

Larry Boy - Larry is in a class all by himself. When he first came on the scene I thought, damn.. this kid is clueless about what he's talking about. He is labeled as a legalist because he believes christians should follow the actions of the early apostles in worship, baptism, etc.. he believes works are necessary along with faith, for salvation. As time went on, I saw LB change a bit. He was so zealous about his beliefs and he admirably clung to them like a life preserver. He argued so fervently, christians began to head him off at the pass and tried to bring him in line with mainstream thought. LB wouldn't have any of that. I admire LB for his tenacity, though I think he is misguided. But you can't deny his relentless desire to get his point across.

I'm sure there are some I missed. It's not intentional, it's getting late and this was off the top of my head. And I may be wrong on some or all. It's just how I tend to see them based on past thread discussions.

I would also like to say that I admire each of them. One or two have just a touch of a superiority complex, but all in all, they are all great guys. There are a few that would make great skeptics. Maybe one day they'll come around.
Click to expand...
We have the offdee scale and the Jayrok scale.
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I forgot about this thread...now we have one person outside of myself and my kids (before they were old enough to know better) who thought I was cool.

 
jomar said:
Jayrod said:
The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:

1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant. However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured. I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get. Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed. I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need. Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2) When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby. Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three. We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job. Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work. Again, too perfect to be coincidence.
Click to expand...
were one of these jobs the one you were fired from because you were watching porn all day at work? if so, that's a hell of a way to thank God for looking out for you.
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Goddamit just spit soup all over my ipad :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
 
Jayrod said:
jomar said:
Jayrod said:
The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:

1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant. However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured. I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get. Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed. I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need. Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2) When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby. Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three. We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job. Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work. Again, too perfect to be coincidence.
Click to expand...
were one of these jobs the one you were fired from because you were watching porn all day at work? if so, that's a hell of a way to thank God for looking out for you.
Click to expand...
No. But even if it was, what is your point?
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No point. Just curious what happened to the jobs God hooked you up with. These were the two biggest examples of proof of God in your life. What happened with them?

 
Jayrod said:
The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:

1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant. However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured. I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get. Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed. I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need. Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2) When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby. Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three. We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job. Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work. Again, too perfect to be coincidence.
Click to expand...
These threads always seem to boil down to this. You, a Christian, look at events like these and find God. I, an atheist, look at the same events, shrug my shoulders, and say chit happens? :shrug:

No amount of arguing about it will change how we perceive the same data in a completely different way. Best to live and let live.

...but the discussions sure are entertaining, and I always seem to learn something in the process.

 
CowboysFromHell said:
Jayrod said:
The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:

1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant. However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured. I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get. Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed. I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need. Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2) When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby. Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three. We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job. Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work. Again, too perfect to be coincidence.
Click to expand...
These threads always seem to boil down to this. You, a Christian, look at events like these and find God. I, an atheist, look at the same events, shrug my shoulders, and say chit happens? :shrug:

No amount of arguing about it will change how we perceive the same data in a completely different way. Best to live and let live.

...but the discussions sure are entertaining, and I always seem to learn something in the process.
Click to expand...
I love it when people credit God with these amazing events in their lives, but you mention plagues, natural disasters, kids with cancer -- "He works in mysterious ways." Confirmation bias anyone?
 
In case anyone cares, I've learned a lot in 8 years.

God is real, of that I'm certain. Why I get one job and lose another is neither proof nor disproof in and of itself. God has revealed himself to me in a million ways. Sometimes when I'm looking intently and sometimes when I'm trying hard to ignore Him.

Since this thread was started, I have been fired from a job for looking at porn. I have also been unmercifully harassed by a former employer for over five years for doing nothing wrong. I now have the best job of my career. I have had my marriage nearly fall apart and seen it be at its strongest. I've sunk into depression and crawled out. I've been struggling with severe back pain for months now. We've taken some big hits financially through all of this as well.

What I've realized is that through all of that God is there and involved. Why do bad things happen? I can't tell you. I can sometimes guess, but other times I have no idea. Doesn't mean God doesn't exist. You want proof? Probably never happen in this life. But if you want to know God, ask and he'll answer.

All I can say is God is good and he never fails the ones who love him. Some people suffer more than others. I don't know why and it doesn't seem fair to us, but then again we aren't God either. Our ideas of fair probably don't mean anything to God, right? If they did, what kind of God would that be anyway? We can't even agree on simple things here on earth. How can humanity actually judge an omnipotent God? It's not really possible.

So mock me all you want for porn or for believing in "fairy tales" or for leaving my dogs outside...but know that despite pondering all of the same questions you guys ask a million times around here, I still know Jesus Christ is real and the son of God and loves us all and did enough to save us all. I believe the Bible because Jesus has changed and is still changing me inside, not the other way around.

So long story short, as much as things have changed, I still believe the same.

 
CowboysFromHell said:
Jayrod said:
Evolution doesn't make sense to me...there are too many gaps and leaps of faith to make it even come close to being a good explination for our origin.
Click to expand...
Jayrod said:
In case anyone cares, I've learned a lot in 8 years.
Click to expand...
Is this one of the things you've (pardon the pun) "evolved" in your worldview?
Click to expand...
Yes and no. I don't think the "gaps" are what I believed and I do believe that the earth is likely millions of years old rather than a few thousand years, but I still believe the origin of life is from God.
 
Henry Ford said:
Jayrod said:
All I can say is God is good and he never fails the ones who love him.
Click to expand...
I sometimes wish I could believ that. I don't really understand how anyone can.
Click to expand...
I think it boils down to your definition of failure when it comes to God. If someone expects God to make life easy and no problems or suffering to occur, then they will be disappointed. But if you are looking for God to help you through the problems and suffering then he will never fail.
 
Jayrod said:
Henry Ford said:
Jayrod said:
All I can say is God is good and he never fails the ones who love him.
Click to expand...
I sometimes wish I could believ that. I don't really understand how anyone can.
Click to expand...
I think it boils down to your definition of failure when it comes to God. If someone expects God to make life easy and no problems or suffering to occur, then they will be disappointed. But if you are looking for God to help you through the problems and suffering then he will never fail.
Click to expand...
There are a lot of starving, abused children who might disagree.

 
Henry Ford said:
Jayrod said:
Henry Ford said:
Jayrod said:
All I can say is God is good and he never fails the ones who love him.
Click to expand...
I sometimes wish I could believ that. I don't really understand how anyone can.
Click to expand...
I think it boils down to your definition of failure when it comes to God. If someone expects God to make life easy and no problems or suffering to occur, then they will be disappointed. But if you are looking for God to help you through the problems and suffering then he will never fail.
Click to expand...
There are a lot of starving, abused children who might disagree.
Click to expand...
I think you would be surprised at the answer.
 
Jayrod said:
Henry Ford said:
Jayrod said:
Henry Ford said:
Jayrod said:
All I can say is God is good and he never fails the ones who love him.
Click to expand...
I sometimes wish I could believ that. I don't really understand how anyone can.
Click to expand...
I think it boils down to your definition of failure when it comes to God. If someone expects God to make life easy and no problems or suffering to occur, then they will be disappointed. But if you are looking for God to help you through the problems and suffering then he will never fail.
Click to expand...
There are a lot of starving, abused children who might disagree.
Click to expand...
I think you would be surprised at the answer.
Click to expand...
I believe that you do.

 
Jayrod said:
CowboysFromHell said:
Jayrod said:
Evolution doesn't make sense to me...there are too many gaps and leaps of faith to make it even come close to being a good explination for our origin.
Click to expand...
Jayrod said:
In case anyone cares, I've learned a lot in 8 years.
Click to expand...
Is this one of the things you've (pardon the pun) "evolved" in your worldview?
Click to expand...
Yes and no. I don't think the "gaps" are what I believed and I do believe that the earth is likely millions of years old rather than a few thousand years, but I still believe the origin of life is from God.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:

We, of course, will disagree on this subject, but at least that's a reasonable response. [/hijack]

 
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