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2 hours ago, MindCrime said:

And as a follow up, last week I got a mailer from my current mortgage company (Mr. Cooper) regarding refinancing. Rate was 3.125%, although that was pretty small font compared to  the “You can save $$$$$$$$” part. Needless to say, the rate I got from Chad was much lower.

I have such mixed feelings about Mr. Cooper... well, not mixed... I am not a fan. But they are the 'ghost' of my old company that I loved. Washington Mutual. What was left of the holding company after it failed was a run off re insurance operation... apparently it made a lot of money. Time goes on and they bought Nationstar and named it Mr. Cooper (why, I don't know, what a horrible name for lender). 

It was a pleasure to have helped you! 

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I’m officially a homeowner. Just closed.  2.75%, 15 years.  🥳

Just made my last mortgage payment yesterday!!!  I am free and clear!

If you guys would allow me to vent... I need to vent a bit... I could vent to other LO's who all know it and they just smile and nod (somehow that doesn't really feel like venting) or my wife but with

15 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

I take it the wife is a realtor. I don't know of any realtors that would advise a seller to take a Quicken loan on an offer if they had an alternative with pretty much anyone else. 

However, that may be changing... Quicken is going hard after realtors getting them to get MLO licensed and then 'take an app' and then get paid on the loan. Basically, it is a 'legal' way around RESPA. Quicken knows that their rep is poo and realtors hate them. (which is in part the reason of the rebranding to Rocket) What better way to get realtors to be on your side than to pay them. 

Quicken sucks and they are make used car salesmen look respectful slimy but they are not dumb and they are a marketing machine! Best damn marketing company out there... they just happen to do crappy mortgages. 

Yep. Wifey is a realtor. Rocket/Quicken is the worst and I would be highly suspect of any professional that would choose to work with them. 

Let me get this straight because I am on the outside looking in this world everyday. Wouldn't being the realtor and the MLO create an opportunity for ethical issues? I always thought combining the two was not allowed, at least she was always taught to not be involved with the money for legal reasons. Having tat separation is there for a reason.

Lastly, I can see some realtors taking the bait on this as there are slimey ones out there.

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6 hours ago, madshot31 said:

Yep. Wifey is a realtor. Rocket/Quicken is the worst and I would be highly suspect of any professional that would choose to work with them. 

Let me get this straight because I am on the outside looking in this world everyday. Wouldn't being the realtor and the MLO create an opportunity for ethical issues? I always thought combining the two was not allowed, at least she was always taught to not be involved with the money for legal reasons. Having tat separation is there for a reason.

Lastly, I can see some realtors taking the bait on this as there are slimey ones out there.

I've had a preferred lender for nine years now for my clients.   I don't see any of their financial info.  I only know if they are approved or not and how much they are approved for.  

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15 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

I've had a preferred lender for nine years now for my clients.   I don't see any of their financial info.  I only know if they are approved or not and how much they are approved for.  

Exactly. That is how the wifey rolls as well. 

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On 1/27/2021 at 12:11 PM, DA RAIDERS said:

my most recent refi, went:  broker(never made a payment to them), wells fargo, fannie mae(serviced by wells fargo).  nothing changed for me.  auto pay through wells fargo the whole time.

and here's another thing.  wells fargo as a servicer can see the servicing rights (ie MSR) to another servicer and suddenly you'd get a letter in the mail that Joe Blow is now servicing the loan and you should begin sending all payments to them.  Doesn't change that FNMA owns the debt though.  And there is nothing you can do to prevent said sale of the MSR.

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22 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

I take it the wife is a realtor. I don't know of any realtors that would advise a seller to take a Quicken loan on an offer if they had an alternative with pretty much anyone else. 

However, that may be changing... Quicken is going hard after realtors getting them to get MLO licensed and then 'take an app' and then get paid on the loan. Basically, it is a 'legal' way around RESPA. Quicken knows that their rep is poo and realtors hate them. (which is in part the reason of the rebranding to Rocket) What better way to get realtors to be on your side than to pay them. 

Quicken sucks and they are make used car salesmen look respectful slimy but they are not dumb and they are a marketing machine! Best damn marketing company out there... they just happen to do crappy mortgages. 

First time ever today...  A quicken guy from Michigan called me and left a VM about an opportunity he wanted to discuss with me.

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Closed my refi yesterday with Chad’s guy. 
 

2.875% with 80% LTV on a 30yr cashout refinance. Roughly a 3 week turnaround. Everything super smooth on the broker side (my appraisal came in a little lower than advertised and my title company that I chose was an issue but all worked out). 
 

Didn’t realize that I dont get my money until next week due to a 3day recision period. Im used to closing multimillion dollar cre transactions with wires flying all over the place on closing day. 
 

thank you chad!!!  Highly recommend utilizing his contacts and knowledge. 

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21 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Chad has helped FBGs save multiple $10s of millions in interest and gotten another multiple $millions in cash out. 

FBG legend

For real! He's awesome. I love the monthly email I get on the value of my home and current equity.  No one has helped his fellow FBGs more than Chad. 

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On 1/27/2021 at 6:03 PM, Chadstroma said:
On 1/27/2021 at 12:48 PM, The Z Machine said:

That seems... strange.  I would like to know who is holding the actual debt I owe.

For conventional, it is Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It is how the markets work. Lenders originate to conforming guidelines (Fannie and Freddie's) and then when the loan is done sell the debt to them. The servicing rights is what you see in terms of who you pay your mortgage to. Those often get sold but the holder of the actual debt is still Fannie or Freddie. 

Yep. The government buys or guarantees something like 80% of the single family home market.

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On 1/26/2021 at 8:16 PM, Chadstroma said:

Latest example of Red Rocket (Quicken) sucking. 

A broker friend of mine (I have actually sent a couple of FBG's her direction) showed the exciting Red Rocket unsolicited offer that she got. 

If she did the loan with them they would give her an FHA loan (she is currently in a conventional with over 20% equity meaning she pays no PMI now but would with an FHA loan) at a "low" rate (a rate that I could easily get) for only 2.5 charged in points. For someone who was not financially savvy, this might look like a good deal because it was a lower rate (FHA rates are lower now) and it is from "Quicken", I mean, is there a more well known name than them- certainly they would not screw people over. 

Well... actually.... they do. They spend billions (which is why you see their name EVERYWHERE.... Super Bowl? Yup. Gas station? Yup. TV? Can you watch TV without seeing their commercials? Radio? Yup. Online? Yup.... EVERYWHERE) in advertising. The reason they can spend so much in advertising is sadly some Americans fall for this kind of crap that they send out. 

Ok... soap box put away... for now. 

You mean you’re not handing out millions in a Super Bowl square game?

https://rocketmortgagesquares.com/?qls=EGL_Super021.210201reba&j=30044&sfmc_sub=18335356&l=18_HTML&u=400274&mid=100028400&jb=34802

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7 hours ago, fruity pebbles said:

A drop in the bucket of all the money they take from unsuspecting Americans with their marketing of high interest and high points/fees crap they sell. :rant:

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On 1/28/2021 at 3:54 PM, Getzlaf15 said:

First time ever today...  A quicken guy from Michigan called me and left a VM about an opportunity he wanted to discuss with me.

Bleepity bleeping bleeps! 

Yup- they are going hard and heavy on this. I hope the CFBP nails them against the wall on this. It is simply a way to 'get around' RESPA for them and give referral money. By the letter it is fine but by spirit, it is breaking RESPA in pieces. 

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On 1/30/2021 at 9:03 AM, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Closed my refi yesterday with Chad’s guy. 
 

2.875% with 80% LTV on a 30yr cashout refinance. Roughly a 3 week turnaround. Everything super smooth on the broker side (my appraisal came in a little lower than advertised and my title company that I chose was an issue but all worked out). 
 

Didn’t realize that I dont get my money until next week due to a 3day recision period. Im used to closing multimillion dollar cre transactions with wires flying all over the place on closing day. 
 

thank you chad!!!  Highly recommend utilizing his contacts and knowledge. 

:lmao: Only residential primary residence refi's have the 'protection'. No one cares about your CRE transactions. :lmao:

Glad to have helped! 

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On 1/30/2021 at 10:16 AM, The Z Machine said:

Chad has helped FBGs save multiple $10s of millions in interest and gotten another multiple $millions in cash out. 

FBG legend

Thank you. 

This made wonder about how many people I have helped either directly or introducing them to someone. I think I have personally helped about 10 or so. I could figure it out if I wanted to but don't have the time or energy right now. 

I would guess (no way for me to really figure it out because I just make an intro and then move on) I have referred likely north of 30 FBG's to brokers I know. 

That feels good. 

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On 1/30/2021 at 10:20 AM, flapgreen said:

For real! He's awesome. I love the monthly email I get on the value of my home and current equity.  No one has helped his fellow FBGs more than Chad. 

Good to hear you are enjoying those updates! 

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On 1/30/2021 at 2:39 PM, Desert_Power said:

Yep. The government buys or guarantees something like 80% of the single family home market.

Well... Fannie and Freddie are not technically the government but yea... it is even higher than that. Conventional loans are almost all bought by Fannie and Freddie. FHA, VA and USDA are all backed by the government (govies in the industry). That leaves basically non-QM loans and hard money for the rest. I don't know the actual numbers but I would think it is closer to 90% if not above. 

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Ok, mortgage and home related question for you guys.  I've only ever bought 1 home.

Say I want to buy a new home and move.  The challenge that I'm facing is that there is a VERY limited stock of houses that meet my needs... I want to stay in the same neighborhood, and the size/layout are critical, so there's only about 50 total that meet my needs and some of those are out of my price range.  If average turnover is 20 years, that's only 2.5 houses / year that are available and if I eliminate the ones out of my price range, then a house is likely to come up every 6 mo. or so.    Therefore, I need to be able to move quickly to put an offer on a home that comes up for sale, since they don't turn over that often.  But getting a 20%+ payment would require selling my home to get the equity out.  So, how do I accomplish this?

One idea I had was to pull $50k our of my 401k and $50k out fo wife's 403b.  Use that plus some savings to get to 20% down.  Then, after the move, put my current house up for sale.  Once sold, take the proceeds and repay the 401k/403b loans.

What's the downside to this plan?  How do I line up the financing now so that I can move quickly on a home that comes up for sale?  Are there tax implications for taking this loan and repaying it?  What if the repayment happens in another calendar year?

Are there any other options besides trying to list my house at the same time and placing a contingency offer?

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2 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Ok, mortgage and home related question for you guys.  I've only ever bought 1 home.

Say I want to buy a new home and move.  The challenge that I'm facing is that there is a VERY limited stock of houses that meet my needs... I want to stay in the same neighborhood, and the size/layout are critical, so there's only about 50 total that meet my needs and some of those are out of my price range.  If average turnover is 20 years, that's only 2.5 houses / year that are available and if I eliminate the ones out of my price range, then a house is likely to come up every 6 mo. or so.    Therefore, I need to be able to move quickly to put an offer on a home that comes up for sale, since they don't turn over that often.  But getting a 20%+ payment would require selling my home to get the equity out.  So, how do I accomplish this?

One idea I had was to pull $50k our of my 401k and $50k out fo wife's 403b.  Use that plus some savings to get to 20% down.  Then, after the move, put my current house up for sale.  Once sold, take the proceeds and repay the 401k/403b loans.

What's the downside to this plan?  How do I line up the financing now so that I can move quickly on a home that comes up for sale?  Are there tax implications for taking this loan and repaying it?  What if the repayment happens in another calendar year?

Are there any other options besides trying to list my house at the same time and placing a contingency offer?

There are bridge loans for these situations. You could also look at a HELOC. I would think you should avoid pulling out of retirement accounts. You also don't need 20%.

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1 hour ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

There are bridge loans for these situations. You could also look at a HELOC. I would think you should avoid pulling out of retirement accounts. You also don't need 20%.

How does a bridge loan work?  Are sellers reluctant to agree to an offer that contains a bridge loan?

I though 20% down was needed to avoid PMI and secure the lowest rate possible. 

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29 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

How does a bridge loan work?  Are sellers reluctant to agree to an offer that contains a bridge loan?

I though 20% down was needed to avoid PMI and secure the lowest rate possible. 

If I were you I would message @Chadstromaas he would be best suited to review your specific situation and get you on the right path.

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18 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

How does a bridge loan work?  Are sellers reluctant to agree to an offer that contains a bridge loan?

I though 20% down was needed to avoid PMI and secure the lowest rate possible. 

 

17 hours ago, acarey50 said:

If I were you I would message @Chadstromaas he would be best suited to review your specific situation and get you on the right path.

I agree. I would talk to a pro.

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On 2/5/2021 at 11:17 AM, The Z Machine said:

Ok, mortgage and home related question for you guys.  I've only ever bought 1 home.

Say I want to buy a new home and move.  The challenge that I'm facing is that there is a VERY limited stock of houses that meet my needs... I want to stay in the same neighborhood, and the size/layout are critical, so there's only about 50 total that meet my needs and some of those are out of my price range.  If average turnover is 20 years, that's only 2.5 houses / year that are available and if I eliminate the ones out of my price range, then a house is likely to come up every 6 mo. or so.    Therefore, I need to be able to move quickly to put an offer on a home that comes up for sale, since they don't turn over that often.  But getting a 20%+ payment would require selling my home to get the equity out.  So, how do I accomplish this?

One idea I had was to pull $50k our of my 401k and $50k out fo wife's 403b.  Use that plus some savings to get to 20% down.  Then, after the move, put my current house up for sale.  Once sold, take the proceeds and repay the 401k/403b loans.

What's the downside to this plan?  How do I line up the financing now so that I can move quickly on a home that comes up for sale?  Are there tax implications for taking this loan and repaying it?  What if the repayment happens in another calendar year?

Are there any other options besides trying to list my house at the same time and placing a contingency offer?

The most common is doing offers as contingent on selling. A local realtor would be able to give feedback on whether sellers are putting their noses up to that or not. It obviously is less appealing than a non contingency offer. Though you never know. My own experience was having our offer turned down (well, verbally accepted then backed out before signing docs) while they took the contingent offer offering the same. Why? Because they were putting 30% down versus our 20%. I went through the roof. Either the seller was an idiot that doesn't listen or the realtor was a completely incompetent drooling moron or both. Made no sense and this was 2012 during a buyers market. The house came back on market about 30 days later. I put in lower offer than before. They verbally accepted and then came back asking for a few stupid things that I agreed to and then they asked to waive the inspection contingency. I said hell to the no. So, they took an FHA offer they had over our conventional. Again, absolutely moronic. 

A bridge loan is an option. In short, it is a way to finance the transaction to take care of the problem you are having. They can be done in different ways though since COVID many lenders stopped offering them. 

You could do an equity loan though that will cost you as most will have either you pay the closing costs or you have a prepayment penalty. 

I am not a tax advisor and don't play one on TV so I am not going to touch giving qdvice on that other than to say talk to your retirement plan administrator for options you can do and a tax advisor for any tax implications. 

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7 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

The most common is doing offers as contingent on selling. A local realtor would be able to give feedback on whether sellers are putting their noses up to that or not. It obviously is less appealing than a non contingency offer. Though you never know. My own experience was having our offer turned down (well, verbally accepted then backed out before signing docs) while they took the contingent offer offering the same. Why? Because they were putting 30% down versus our 20%. I went through the roof. Either the seller was an idiot that doesn't listen or the realtor was a completely incompetent drooling moron or both. Made no sense and this was 2012 during a buyers market. The house came back on market about 30 days later. I put in lower offer than before. They verbally accepted and then came back asking for a few stupid things that I agreed to and then they asked to waive the inspection contingency. I said hell to the no. So, they took an FHA offer they had over our conventional. Again, absolutely moronic. 

A bridge loan is an option. In short, it is a way to finance the transaction to take care of the problem you are having. They can be done in different ways though since COVID many lenders stopped offering them. 

You could do an equity loan though that will cost you as most will have either you pay the closing costs or you have a prepayment penalty. 

I am not a tax advisor and don't play one on TV so I am not going to touch giving qdvice on that other than to say talk to your retirement plan administrator for options you can do and a tax advisor for any tax implications. 

What I did five times last year that worked out extremely well is this....

I get the entire listing ready to go.  All the paperwork. All the pictures. All of it.  Comps so we could price it correctly. 

Then we would go out and make offers on new home.   Offer was to be contingent on sale of home, but I would present with my offer all the listing paperwork. To be listed the next Thursday and sold by Sunday,  When i did the third one, I presented the info on the prior two I did so the seller would feel comfortable accepting our offer. I also only asked for ten days to sell my buyers home or they could change status from "contingent sale" to back to "active."

 

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9 hours ago, Getzlaf15 said:

What I did five times last year that worked out extremely well is this....

I get the entire listing ready to go.  All the paperwork. All the pictures. All of it.  Comps so we could price it correctly. 

Then we would go out and make offers on new home.   Offer was to be contingent on sale of home, but I would present with my offer all the listing paperwork. To be listed the next Thursday and sold by Sunday,  When i did the third one, I presented the info on the prior two I did so the seller would feel comfortable accepting our offer. I also only asked for ten days to sell my buyers home or they could change status from "contingent sale" to back to "active."

 

And this is the difference between working with a good realtor and just any realtor.

👍

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32 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

But then I'd still have to prep my house for photos and listing, etc., before moving.  I'd rather not have that stress. Plus the house would look better staged, right?

Vacant used to be the less desirable option.  Now it's the best due to covid.  Staging real furniture is very expensive, but it does pay off.  Since about 99% see the property online first, I have "virtually" staged a few rooms on the MLS pics for like $40 per room and that has worked tremendously well in the past year.  Just have to have someone that does this type of staging for a living and isnt posting anything that looks cheesy at all.

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2 hours ago, Getzlaf15 said:

Vacant used to be the less desirable option.  Now it's the best due to covid.  Staging real furniture is very expensive, but it does pay off.  Since about 99% see the property online first, I have "virtually" staged a few rooms on the MLS pics for like $40 per room and that has worked tremendously well in the past year.  Just have to have someone that does this type of staging for a living and isnt posting anything that looks cheesy at all.

So they shoot the photos in a totally bare space and then add the furniture in digitally?

One of the things I like best is an image of the floorplan.  Doesn't need to be dead accurate, or even dimensioned, but helps a bunch if you're just doing a virtual visit.

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A loan from a 401k or 403b won't be taxable, provided you pay it back. The downside is the time the money spends out of the market and whatever fees are charged to take the loan, probably $150 max if that. Make sure the respective plans allow for lump-sum repayments at any time and you should be fine from a retirement perspective. Ideally you get the money back in there quickly. 

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3 minutes ago, Moe. said:

A loan from a 401k or 403b won't be taxable, provided you pay it back. The downside is the time the money spends out of the market and whatever fees are charged to take the loan, probably $150 max if that. Make sure the respective plans allow for lump-sum repayments at any time and you should be fine from a retirement perspective. Ideally you get the money back in there quickly. 

Yeah, I think my house would sell relatively quickly once it's staged properly (and repainted and repaired).  While I wouldn't want to carry the two mortgages or leave the money out of the market for very long, the stress of repairing, prepping, staging, etc. with the kids doing 100% virtual school an everyone in the house all the time is something I just don't think I can take on.

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Thanks to @Chadstroma for hooking me up with one of his contacts in my area. Simple process...all done electronically (except closing) with only needing to supply a few financial documents. He was able to beat the prior guy I refi’d with by .15%.

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7 hours ago, Steeler said:

Chad helped me refinance to a 15 yr loan at 2.25% -- shaving 7 years and 55K off my existing mortgage.  He was great to work with and patiently answered all my pain-in-the-### questions :lol: 

Thanks @Chadstroma !

My pleasure and thanks for trusting me with it! 

 

I meant to call and follow up on the closing yesterday but the day was a bleep show for me that then had family obligations so... glad to hear it went well 🤣🤣🤣

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Closing on my 30yr 2.5% refi and Chad had nothing to do with it ;) 

About 6k in points to get that rate but rolled that into the loan. Also combined my 1st and 2nd (heloc) into a single loan. Can’t believe I’m locked into such a low rate. I plan on paying close to my previous payment but will likely put a chunk of that monthly savings into increasing my monthly investments since it won’t be hard to beat that 2.5% rate in the market most years. 

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The economists are sticking to their predictions that the year will see a steady increase in rates. If you were on the fence or thinking or putting off looking at a mortgage.... you need to get your backside in motion. I think overall, it is just a question of how high and how fast rates go up. 

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On 1/20/2021 at 12:45 PM, Chadstroma said:

It is one of the many reasons brokers love UWM and have grown them to the largest wholesale lender in the country.

Brokers may love them, but investors don't.  Worst stock purchase of the year.  Makes buying Amazon in the fall look like a smart move.

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3 hours ago, BassNBrew said:

Brokers may love them, but investors don't.  Worst stock purchase of the year.  Makes buying Amazon in the fall look like a smart move.

Wall St doesn't get it.

When rates rise, they will dominate and take more market share. Investors will trail in. O have picked up more shares as the price has dropped.

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Just now, Chadstroma said:

Wall St doesn't get it.

When rates rise, they will dominate and take more market share. Investors will trail in. O have picked up more shares as the price has dropped.

Wrong thread but I can't resist.  How does fewer mortgages help there sales growth?  I'd rather have 50% of 100 than 95% of 10.

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So Chad, I have been waiting to refinance to get my wife's 2 years of self employment history on the books. Essentially we need to file this years taxes to complete the process. But, we are waiting on tax paperwork to come in to file, as I have been furloughed a decent percentage, so we needed the added monies on the books instead of just basing it off my income originally. Anything we can do beside just chilling like we have been?

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1 hour ago, madshot31 said:

So Chad, I have been waiting to refinance to get my wife's 2 years of self employment history on the books. Essentially we need to file this years taxes to complete the process. But, we are waiting on tax paperwork to come in to file, as I have been furloughed a decent percentage, so we needed the added monies on the books instead of just basing it off my income originally. Anything we can do beside just chilling like we have been?

You may qualify with just one year of self employment if you can show a two-year history in the same line of work previous. 

Generally you are going to need further from the typical docs: 

-Two years tax returns, all schedules all pages of federal for both personal and business

-YTD audited P&L or a P&L with supporting bank statements to help prove the P&L

-Balance sheet

(may need other documentation based on specifics like business license and/or CPA signed letter for business operation etc)

 

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I refied a few months back to a 15 year 2.5%. Make any sense to try refi again to an even lower rate? $300k loan. Current lender who my loan was just sold to has sent me multiple communications about contacting them for an even better deal. Do current lenders do rate cuts without all the fees? Do you always still have to do a full close process with title fees or can that step be skipped if staying with current lender? 

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3 hours ago, BassNBrew said:

Wrong thread but I can't resist.  How does fewer mortgages help there sales growth?  I'd rather have 50% of 100 than 95% of 10.

So... this is what I am saying.... brokers know because it is our business to know.... no one else does though. I will try to explain briefly in big strokes because otherwise it will be a very lengthy post. 

Essentially, UWM is the best at what they do. No one comes close. They are built on speed and ease of use. They are heavily invested in proprietary technology for that speed and ease of use which is why brokers love them. Most brokers.... like 90%? range from LOVE to really like using them, very few complainers and to be honest most who don't like them it is because of user error, instead of using their tech they try to use them like another lender and get mad that it doesn't work. Most lenders, you lean on the Account Executive HEAVILY and a good AE makes or breaks the relationship. With UWM you have an AE but they are more of just a personal touch resource and if you try to lean on the AE like other lenders you will think they are horrible. I have heard brokers say that the big problem that Wall St doesn't understand is that they are treating them as another lender and they are more of a tech company than your run of the mill next in line lender. 

Here is what I meant about dominating in the future. Right now.... if you are a lender, you are making money. Some wholesale lenders suck and the only way that they can attract business is by offering really low rates. Now, when I say suck, I mean, they will take months to close a loan with going back and forth on a long list of conditions and adding more conditions and then dropping the ball on the file etc. I mean dumpster fires that not only are a horror show for the broker but for the client as well. It doesn't matter how good a rate is if you can't close the damn thing.... their approach is basically throw everything against the wall and hopefully something sticks. Good lenders try to balance offering great rate with delivering as they are suppose to even if it takes a little time. UWM knows it is top of the line and so what they have done is raised their rates. They are NEVER the lowest rates right now when we do our shopping of wholesale but MANY (including me) brokers value their ability for speed and ease so that we get comments like "Wow, that was fast" and "Man, that was much easier than I thought it would be" from our clients. So, we take the hit on the pricing and make less money on the deal than we otherwise could of by using other lenders. So, if it is somewhat close and could to cost me $200 in commission to use UWM versus another lender to get that same rate, I am going to do it because it is worth it to me. Now, UWM isn't the only lender I use but I prefer them for sure. Most brokers are like me in that. UWM is taking the higher margins and reinvesting in itself to continue to get better. Now.... as rates increase what will happen? Many crappy lenders are going to be in trouble. If they have retail and wholesale, they may close up wholesale operations as no one uses them. Some will fail completely. More than a few will sell out. As volume decreases, UWM will lower their rates (before rates went down they did the same thing) and become a leader in rates as well as being the best in everything else. In the previous increasing rate environment, their volume and market share increased. That will continue as rates increase moving forward. 

Stock price is forward looking as much as it tries to be... and in this case, those who do not understand the industry and company expect that their volume will decrease as the loans decrease thus less profits. I do not believe that will be the case. Their volume will increase and they will show dominance against other lenders who's volume decreases and they struggle. 

A well known and respected guy in the broker community who established the broker professional association pretty much nailed it when he posted in a broker FB group recently "I just bought 1,000 shares of UWM. What will I do if the price falls further? Buy more." I am following suit. 

Yes, this was the short version of the reply. 

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17 minutes ago, Shatner! said:

I refied a few months back to a 15 year 2.5%. Make any sense to try refi again to an even lower rate? $300k loan. Current lender who my loan was just sold to has sent me multiple communications about contacting them for an even better deal. Do current lenders do rate cuts without all the fees? Do you always still have to do a full close process with title fees or can that step be skipped if staying with current lender? 

Worth a conversation with more detail I would say. Depending on specifics, yes, possible to lower and make sense in doing so. 

Can lenders lower a rate without all the fees? Yes, it would be a loan modification but that doesn't generally happen unless you are in hardship. Otherwise, they have to refinance the loan like any other lender with all the same steps and title etc. Mortgage servicers want you to think it will be better, faster, etc to deal with them... that is the main reason many of them service the loans to begin with as a lead generation platform. Same thing that banks rely on.... the idea that "It's my bank, they have all my in info and everything it will be easier/better/best rate" and nope. If it is a conventional loan it needs to be refinanced fully as a conventional loan or it isn't a conventional loan anymore and is a portfolio product. Same with FHA, VA or USDA. All lenders play by their rules and the only thing any lenders can do is ADD more rules to their basic rules... not take away. 

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3 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Worth a conversation with more detail I would say. Depending on specifics, yes, possible to lower and make sense in doing so. 

Can lenders lower a rate without all the fees? Yes, it would be a loan modification but that doesn't generally happen unless you are in hardship. Otherwise, they have to refinance the loan like any other lender with all the same steps and title etc. Mortgage servicers want you to think it will be better, faster, etc to deal with them... that is the main reason many of them service the loans to begin with as a lead generation platform. Same thing that banks rely on.... the idea that "It's my bank, they have all my in info and everything it will be easier/better/best rate" and nope. If it is a conventional loan it needs to be refinanced fully as a conventional loan or it isn't a conventional loan anymore and is a portfolio product. Same with FHA, VA or USDA. All lenders play by their rules and the only thing any lenders can do is ADD more rules to their basic rules... not take away. 

Good info. Thanks.

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6 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

So... this is what I am saying.... brokers know because it is our business to know.... no one else does though. I will try to explain briefly in big strokes because otherwise it will be a very lengthy post. 

Essentially, UWM is the best at what they do. No one comes close. They are built on speed and ease of use. They are heavily invested in proprietary technology for that speed and ease of use which is why brokers love them. Most brokers.... like 90%? range from LOVE to really like using them, very few complainers and to be honest most who don't like them it is because of user error, instead of using their tech they try to use them like another lender and get mad that it doesn't work. Most lenders, you lean on the Account Executive HEAVILY and a good AE makes or breaks the relationship. With UWM you have an AE but they are more of just a personal touch resource and if you try to lean on the AE like other lenders you will think they are horrible. I have heard brokers say that the big problem that Wall St doesn't understand is that they are treating them as another lender and they are more of a tech company than your run of the mill next in line lender. 

Here is what I meant about dominating in the future. Right now.... if you are a lender, you are making money. Some wholesale lenders suck and the only way that they can attract business is by offering really low rates. Now, when I say suck, I mean, they will take months to close a loan with going back and forth on a long list of conditions and adding more conditions and then dropping the ball on the file etc. I mean dumpster fires that not only are a horror show for the broker but for the client as well. It doesn't matter how good a rate is if you can't close the damn thing.... their approach is basically throw everything against the wall and hopefully something sticks. Good lenders try to balance offering great rate with delivering as they are suppose to even if it takes a little time. UWM knows it is top of the line and so what they have done is raised their rates. They are NEVER the lowest rates right now when we do our shopping of wholesale but MANY (including me) brokers value their ability for speed and ease so that we get comments like "Wow, that was fast" and "Man, that was much easier than I thought it would be" from our clients. So, we take the hit on the pricing and make less money on the deal than we otherwise could of by using other lenders. So, if it is somewhat close and could to cost me $200 in commission to use UWM versus another lender to get that same rate, I am going to do it because it is worth it to me. Now, UWM isn't the only lender I use but I prefer them for sure. Most brokers are like me in that. UWM is taking the higher margins and reinvesting in itself to continue to get better. Now.... as rates increase what will happen? Many crappy lenders are going to be in trouble. If they have retail and wholesale, they may close up wholesale operations as no one uses them. Some will fail completely. More than a few will sell out. As volume decreases, UWM will lower their rates (before rates went down they did the same thing) and become a leader in rates as well as being the best in everything else. In the previous increasing rate environment, their volume and market share increased. That will continue as rates increase moving forward. 

Stock price is forward looking as much as it tries to be... and in this case, those who do not understand the industry and company expect that their volume will decrease as the loans decrease thus less profits. I do not believe that will be the case. Their volume will increase and they will show dominance against other lenders who's volume decreases and they struggle. 

A well known and respected guy in the broker community who established the broker professional association pretty much nailed it when he posted in a broker FB group recently "I just bought 1,000 shares of UWM. What will I do if the price falls further? Buy more." I am following suit. 

Yes, this was the short version of the reply. 

So I of course was curious who is steering the ship and how long this innovative approach might last.

The guy is only 41, he's not going anywhere.  The path to take out the dinosaurs should continue.  You are right, he will feast on the weak in tough times.  Market is frothy as is this stock so entry point is a guessing game, but a long-term position here seems wise.  Big fan of market share I guess you could say.  Thanks.

BTW, he's worth 12 billion already.  Played for Tom Izzo as a walk-on and won the NC in 2000.  Finished at their business school.  Donated 32 mil to MSU (mostly the football program) a few weeks ago.

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Just now, Rodrigo Duterte said:

So I of course was curious who is steering the ship and how long this innovative approach might last.

The guy is only 41, he's not going anywhere.  The path to take out the dinosaurs should continue.  You are right, he will feast on the weak in tough times.  Market is frothy as is this stock so entry point is a guessing game, but a long-term position here seems wise.  Thanks.

BTW, he's worth 12 billion already.  Played for Tom Izzo as a walk-on.  Donated 32 mil to the MSU football team a few weeks ago.

Mat Ishbia didn't just play at MSU, he won a championship there. He is a cool dude on top of it all. Smart and driven of course as you can imagine someone who took a family business with like 12 employees and grown it into the largest wholesale lender in the country but he is full of integrity too. But he is also nice and down to earth for a guy who is now a billionaire. I have heard him speak in large groups, small groups, and personally once and he isn't a BSer at all. When things got rough real quick early on the COVID and there were questions about some lenders laying off or not making it etc. he told his entire company that he would not lay off anyone. I think it was something like he would sleep in his office before laying off a single person. They kind of halted lending (they were still lending but their pricing was silly high) and retail LO's were crowing that they were about to fail. I was on a small group of brokers on a zoom with him and he addressed it head on, told us what they were doing (basically pausing to take a pulse on the market and positioning to come out stronger on the back end) and they did exactly what he told us. They are always making moves now, as he puts it, not to win now but to win tomorrow and the next week and the next month and the next year and so on. Through this boom a lot of lenders are just trying to win now and worry about tomorrow- then. Sometimes the decisions they make end up causing some brokers to whine but if you have listened to Mat, you understand that the moves are about playing chess when the competitors are playing checkers. I have a lot of faith in Ish (as we brokers call him). 

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Chad, I actually edited my post to include the NC when I thought about the audience here.  Funny, you were beating me to it.

Often you see companies focus quarter to quarter and on the market and their stock price.  Investors as well.  A million reasons why, and why they shouldn't obviously, but whatever.  It's nice to see one where it appears you are somewhat getting in with decades or so to go -- even if the real ground floor was built a decade ago.  This will be the type of company to hammer when their industry craters.  And it will.

As an aside, I love the sports tie-in with this guy and all those lessons learned.  What a great story that has served him incredibly well.  And the giving back, while still so young, speaks volumes.  He also handled Covid like a champ, while others were freaking.  They'll be ready for whatever.  People love working for leaders like that.

Anyway, as to not derail the thread.  Could you send me your email, I think I have some business for you.

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