Chase Stuart
Footballguy
What say you?
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Best blocking TE in NFL history (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Chase Stuart
- Start date
marv fleming
Area51Inhabitant
Footballguy
Bavaro was a beast. Pete Metzelaars was another good one. I'm convinced any great running team has to have a great blocking te unless you have a freak like Barry Sanders who didn't need a te or a fullback so I look at te's on historically great run teams such as Jim Mandich of the great Dolphins teams of the 70's and Randy Grossman of the super Steeler teams. Dave Casper was also a tremendous run blocker in addition to being a phenomenal receiving te.
Mandich was not the blocking TE, Fleming was
and Fleming was also the TE on Packers Super Bowl winning teams in the late 60's
Area51Inhabitant
Footballguy
Point taken. I forgot he was with the Dolphins after all his years with the Packers. Another guy I just thought of was Russ Francis of the Pats.
Kyle Brady
HMH
Footballguy
Good choice. I use to live in Seal Beach and met him on several occasions. Very nice man , but clearly suffering from dementia. On one occasion , he gave me his autograph six times.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Spin-off question.
Assuming that the players in question are both one-dimension, who would be more valuable, the greatest blocking TE ever or the greatest receiving TE ever?
Assuming that the players in question are both one-dimension, who would be more valuable, the greatest blocking TE ever or the greatest receiving TE ever?
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Dave Casper
Native
Footballguy
I think I recall Paul Zimmerman stating that Casper was the best blocking TE he ever saw.
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Ditka
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Assuming that both men are entirely one dimensional, I'd take the greatest receiving TE over the greatest blocking TE. The "GRTE" would cause so many more problems for a defense than the "GBTE" in the form of mismatches and from a scheming point of view imo.
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Zeke Mowatt > Howard Cross
dgreen
Footballguy
Here are some possibilities. These are TEs with 100+ career games and less than one reception per game. What kept these TEs in the league so long if they weren't part of the passing game? Of course, special teams plays a roll here. For example, Kendall Gammon played 8 seasons and 128 games at "TE" yet never had a catch, so something kept in the league so long. Looking closer, he made the 2004 Pro Bowl on special teams, so maybe he wasn't a great blocking TE. I do think there are probably some excellent blockers in this group. There are some Redskins in here who I am familiar with and who were known for their blocking, like Ron Middleton, Rick Walker, Terry Orr, and Jimmie Johnson.
Code:
NAME YRS GAMES REC YDS TD REC/GKendall Gammon 8 128 0 0 0 0.00Harper Le Bel 10 136 1 9 0 0.01Mike Bartrum 11 136 11 65 6 0.08Bob Parsons 11 161 19 231 4 0.12Ed Beckman 8 107 29 198 1 0.27Larry Brown 14 167 48 636 5 0.29Butch Rolle 8 124 38 213 11 0.31Hunter Goodwin 8 103 37 265 2 0.36Ron Middleton 9 115 42 266 3 0.37Ralph Smith 8 108 41 549 5 0.38Todd Yoder 8 104 44 451 5 0.42Jim Obradovich 9 129 56 661 7 0.43Steve Bush 9 116 51 385 3 0.44Walter Rasby 11 139 64 584 5 0.46Terry Orr 8 105 52 939 10 0.50Jason Dunn 11 158 81 910 11 0.51Jimmie Johnson 10 118 61 723 5 0.52Bob Crespino 8 107 58 741 9 0.54Jeff Thomason 10 118 67 650 10 0.57Rick Walker 9 119 70 673 9 0.59Bruce Coslet 8 101 61 878 9 0.60Mike Tice 14 177 107 894 11 0.60Johnny Brewer 10 135 89 1256 6 0.66Pat Carter 10 154 107 1117 9 0.69Larry Hardy 8 101 71 960 7 0.70Ron Egloff 8 105 75 839 4 0.71Mack Alston 11 145 108 1247 15 0.74Jay Saldi 9 112 84 913 7 0.75Reece McCall 8 117 94 1366 12 0.80Marlin McKeever 13 162 133 1737 6 0.82Jonathan Hayes 12 184 153 1718 13 0.83Greg Baty 9 102 85 883 8 0.83Brandon Manumaleuna 8 125 105 952 12 0.84Fred Baxter 10 118 100 1008 12 0.85Pat Curran 10 122 106 1266 5 0.87Mark Bruener 11 153 133 1176 16 0.87Don Hasselbeck 10 123 107 1542 18 0.87Dan Campbell 10 102 91 934 11 0.89Mike Mularkey 9 114 102 1222 9 0.89Brian Kinchen 13 177 160 1648 7 0.90Justin Peelle 7 109 100 773 9 0.92Dave Moore 16 220 207 2028 28 0.94Walt Arnold 9 105 99 1053 7 0.94Pat Richter 8 103 99 1315 14 0.96Marv Fleming 12 162 157 1823 16 0.97
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Horrorshow
Footballguy
Another man worth mentioning. Don Warren.
babydemon90
Footballguy
Jason Peters...
perry147
Footballguy
Not a giants fan - live in Alabama hence Howard Cross was one blocking TE that I knew about.Zeke Mowatt > Howard Cross
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Charlie Sanders, John Mackey, Mike Ditka...the TEs in the 60s and 70s were much better blockers than todays TEs.
If a TE is one of the greatest blockers of all time with absolutely no receiving ability, he's essentially just a glorified offensive tackle.If a TE is one of the greatest receivers of all time with absolutely no blocking ability, he's essentially just a glorified wide receiver.Offensive tackles are more valuable than wide receivers, so I'd imagine that, assuming the players in question were completely one-dimensional, the best blocking TE would be more valuable than the best receiving TE.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
This was sort of my line of thinking, but I don't think it's the natural reaction for most football fans. I'm not sure where I stand on this one.
dgreen
Footballguy
Interesting. But what about this...We aren't comparing LT vs. WR1 or RT vs. WR2. We're comparing OT3 vs. WR3. And, actually, if the receiving TE is really, really good, we're likely talking about the equivalence of a WR2. I'm not sure we could ever say that a great blocking TE is equivalent to a RT (or OT2). So, it's possible we're actually comparing WR2 to OT3.
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Pro Football Focus have Jason Witten, Kevin Boss and Anthony Fasano as the best run blocking TE's this season - with Todd Heap, Joel Dreessen and Marcedes Lewis as the top pass blocking TE's.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_positio...&numgames=1
Jimmy Kleinsasser has had a heck of a career as a blocking TE and still continues to play at a very high level.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_positio...&numgames=1
Jimmy Kleinsasser has had a heck of a career as a blocking TE and still continues to play at a very high level.
We could absolutely say that a great blocking TE is equivalent to an RT. Hell, if we're talking about the best blocking TE in history, I would argue that he could potentially be one of the top 10 LTs in the entire NFL. Don't believe me? Matt Lepsis was a blocking TE in college, and he wound up wrapping up his NFL career as one of the top 5 LTs in the league. There's nothing that says that just because a guy is a TE he can't also be a better blocker than many starting OTs.
dgreen
Footballguy
If you add the two blocking scores together, Witten is the clear leader with Boss and Fasano 2nd and 3rd.
While that's very interesting and I applaud the effort to quantify something that's next-to-impossible to measure, I have to seriously question any methodology that rates Tony Scheffler as a significantly better blocker than Daniel Graham.
dgreen
Footballguy
I just think, for the most part, he'd be an OT if he was better than one of the starting OT. Remember, we're talking about someone who is one-dimensional. He can't catch. Why put him at TE if he's a better blocker than your RT?
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Remember that the analysts at Pro Football Focus are rating performance rather than ability. Graham's a better pure blocker than Scheffler but Scheffler's split wide and not graded as much. Subsequently some good blocks on corners in space will up his grade as he carries out what he's asked to do.No doubt that Graham is a more talented blocking TE - although the PFF data suggests that with regard to his blocking efforts this season he could be deemed a tad overrated.
dgreen
Footballguy
That's really only this year. In 2007, they had Graham as the much better overall blocker and had them fairly even in 2008.
2007 RUN PASS TOTALScheffler –2.1 1.0 -1.1Graham 7.4 -3.3 4.12008 RUN PASS TOTALScheffler 1.1 -0.3 0.8Graham 3.1 -3.1 0.02009 RUN PASS TOTALScheffler –3.0 1.3 -1.7Graham -3.1 -1.1 -4.2Graham clearly gets no love in the pass blocking, but he's usually rated highly in the run blocking. My guess in Scheffler doesn't have a ton of opportunities for pass blocking or else his rating would be lower. Also, my guess is when they run, they don't run behind Scheffler so it appears he's doing his job.I believe these guys only rate results and not technique or anything like that. If Scheffler is run blocking on the right and Denver runs left, all he has to do is barely hold off his guy to get good results.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
The
in me says that this is the right choice. He just doesn't get credit because he doesn't catch many passes and doesn't move to FB, so just stays on the line and cleans house!
massraider
Footballguy
If he's on the field, and can't catch, it's one less eligible receiver for the offense. That's why I take the receiving TE.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
It's extremely rare that a offense sends five guys out to catch the ball. Even sets where four WRs go out aren't that common. Looking at it on the flip side, if he's on the field and can't block, it's one less blocker for the offense. I'd say on most passing plays, the offense has 6 or 7 guys blocking, at least initially.Come to think of it, thinking of this another way:On rushing plays, the great blocking TE is really valuable and the great receiving TE is close to useless.On passing plays, it's unclear which one is more valuable.Looking at it that way, I think it stacks the deck in favor of the pass blocking TE. Of course, you could argue that a great pass catching TE is more valuable than most WR1s on a team, I suppose. Another way to look at it is in terms of salary. I suspect Dallas Clark and Dustin Keller will be paid more than Kleinsasser and Graham. So that's evidence that GMs value pass catching TEs more than blocking TEs.
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ChrisCooleyFan
Footballguy
Jerame Tuman
Dexter Manley
Footballguy
Or it could mean that the top flight pass catching te's are more scarce than the top flight blocking te's.Also, IIRC Kleinsasser and Graham were both signed to pretty nice contracts a few years back. I would look at the top pass catching te's that signed during the same offseasons as these guys to draw a more accurate comparison.
CrazyHorse1581
Footballguy
Kendall Gammon was listed as a TE but will forever be known as one of the best long snappers of all time.My vote - Jason Dunn
I understand that, I'm just saying that it's an unforgivable flaw in the metric. It'd be like if Champ Bailey spent all game covering Randy Moss and held him to 5 yards per target, while Jack Williams spent all game covering Sam Aiken and held him to 4 yards per target. I would say that any metric that said that Jack Williams played better than Champ Bailey that game was a seriously flawed metric. Same thing with the blocking- if the metric rewards Tony Scheffler for doing well against weak competition on light responsibilities, while punishing Graham for drawing the toughest assignment on the field, then the metric is seriously flawed. If Graham is such a poor pass blocker, then why does he sometimes get matched up 1-on-1 with the likes of Joey Porter or Shawne Merriman?
Among their other exceptional analysis, earlier this season Football Outsiders hired a former capologist to analyze the top 10 salaries at each position. Here was the article on tight ends. Daniel Graham's contract ranks 5th among TEs despite being signed back in 2007. In fact, at the time of its signing, he was the second-highest paid TE in the league, just the barest hair behind Tony Gonzalez (who had signed a new contract 2 months earlier). Actually, it could be argued that Graham signed a bigger contract, since he made more over the first 3 years of the deal, and KC probably had no intention of ever paying Gonzo after those first three years.Of course, Dallas Clark has the #1 contract, so it's hard to say that GMs are valuing blocking TEs over receiving TEs so much as GMs are valuing both blocking AND receiving TEs highly.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
I guess it depends on what era you're talking about. If it were 50 years ago, I'd say the best blocking TE ever, as they didn't pass nearly as much as they do now.If it were today, although the blocking is valuable, it would not be as valuable as the greatest receiving TE ever. Without getting into a debate on who that may be, let's look at a couple of prolific TE's that come to my mind.Tony Gonzalez for KC. He's about as good as you get of a pass receiving TE. They had one of the greatest running games with Priest and LJ.Jay Novacek, an above average pass catching TE not known for his blocking skills was the starting TE for the leading rusher in NFL history.Shannon Sharpe for the Baltimore Ravens, a great pass catching TE was on the same team as Jamal Lewis when he went for 2,000 yards.There's definately room to have a great pass catching TE and a dominant running attack, so I'd bank the greatest receiving TE ever on my squad over the best blocker.Chase Stuart said:
ReggieHammond
Footballguy
He's the first one that came to my mind, certainly one of the best of the more recent TE's.Steelfan7 said:
