King of the Jungle
Footballguy
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WR Josh Gordon, KC (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Matt Waldman
- Start date
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Footballguy
"problem athlete" ..... he is not an angel -- but smoking weed & having a beer on a flight doesn't make him gangster, makes him like 75% of the NBA.
has been 2 years over weed & beer -- enough already, let him back or announce to the NFLPA that weed is a death sentence / permanent ban
has been 2 years over weed & beer -- enough already, let him back or announce to the NFLPA that weed is a death sentence / permanent ban
flysack
Footballguy
If he was blowing lines of coke off stewardess' breasts and demanding to the fly the plane, then I can see a major ban.
Partaking in something legal in several states isn't any worse than drinking alcohol, and the NFL lets its players spray each other with champagne when they win big.
Gordan may not be a saint, but part of his problem may be the antiquated, puritanical, and idiotic league he's playing in.
Partaking in something legal in several states isn't any worse than drinking alcohol, and the NFL lets its players spray each other with champagne when they win big.
Gordan may not be a saint, but part of his problem may be the antiquated, puritanical, and idiotic league he's playing in.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
1. Not many disagree with this.
2. Irrelevant until the league agrees with this.
3. NFL tends to punish the fact that it's a repeat offense more than the offense itself. It's an authority play (starring Roger Goodell as Eric Cartman, demanding respect for his authoritay)
flysack
Footballguy
I know. The biggest strike against Gordon is his irresponsibility. Yes, it's BS that the league bans marijuana. But if you have a contract for millions of $$ that comes with the condition of no weed, then you better damn well quit or at least be extremely judicious in its use. Hell, the season is only 5 months long. Quit for the season, then puff away and watch basketball.
flysack
Footballguy
I do think he gets a bad rep for what is essentially him making not-so-smart life choices.
People tend to characterize Gordon as some kind of criminal or chronic addict.
No. He's just irresponsible. This is a problem, sure, but rehab is just a stupid way to help him. You don't need rehab for smoking weed. You need a counselor and/or trusted advisor to teach responsibility.
I wonder what his background is like. Parents in the picture? Ever? etc.
People tend to characterize Gordon as some kind of criminal or chronic addict.
No. He's just irresponsible. This is a problem, sure, but rehab is just a stupid way to help him. You don't need rehab for smoking weed. You need a counselor and/or trusted advisor to teach responsibility.
I wonder what his background is like. Parents in the picture? Ever? etc.
apalmer
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
What the general public thinks about marijuana is entirely irrelevant in this process. Marijuana is banned by the league, and the league will stand behind that as long as they feel it is beneficial to them to do so.
They don't care.
As @Hot Sauce Guy pointed out, Gordon has far more potential to hurt the leagues image by getting reinstated and backsliding than he does to help their image by coming back and performing at a high level.
The NFL cares about the casual fan far more than it cares about us. The league knows we aren't going anywhere but the casual fan if fickle and they work very hard to keep their attention, not ours. And the casual fan doesn't know who Josh Gordon is, they wouldn't recognize him if he was sitting next to them on a bus. If you mention the name Josh Gordon to the casual NFL fan they would probably think "Is he related to Jeff?...or Flash?". His reinstatement and subsequent success wouldn't move the needle on TV ratings or public opinion. No, there is almost zero P.R. boost to be had by reinstating Gordon, it's all risk with minimal reward.
So, while I agree with everyone who notes that it was weed and beer and he has been clean for X period of time (there was a DUI in there btw, which we forgive way too easily...probably because most of us have done it at one time or another), that just doesn't matter to the league.
The bottom line is you need to be realistic and accept the fact that the possibility of a backroom deal to fast track his reinstatement is the same as zero ("hat_tip_rob_corddry"). The realistic expectation is a week 9 return at the earliest.
They don't care.
As @Hot Sauce Guy pointed out, Gordon has far more potential to hurt the leagues image by getting reinstated and backsliding than he does to help their image by coming back and performing at a high level.
The NFL cares about the casual fan far more than it cares about us. The league knows we aren't going anywhere but the casual fan if fickle and they work very hard to keep their attention, not ours. And the casual fan doesn't know who Josh Gordon is, they wouldn't recognize him if he was sitting next to them on a bus. If you mention the name Josh Gordon to the casual NFL fan they would probably think "Is he related to Jeff?...or Flash?". His reinstatement and subsequent success wouldn't move the needle on TV ratings or public opinion. No, there is almost zero P.R. boost to be had by reinstating Gordon, it's all risk with minimal reward.
So, while I agree with everyone who notes that it was weed and beer and he has been clean for X period of time (there was a DUI in there btw, which we forgive way too easily...probably because most of us have done it at one time or another), that just doesn't matter to the league.
The bottom line is you need to be realistic and accept the fact that the possibility of a backroom deal to fast track his reinstatement is the same as zero ("hat_tip_rob_corddry"). The realistic expectation is a week 9 return at the earliest.
ATB
Footballguy
Not at all. You just quoted Goodell a few posts up in this thread saying that Gordon's reinstatement isn't being actively considered. That's because it can't be. He's not eligible until the 21st. Could his team have reached out to say, "What does he need to do to make this process go smooth?" A reply of, "Well, for starters, he needs to show he's serious about recovery and about kicking the habits that put him in this position" could be all that was offered.
Either way, I don't think this kinda stuff if ever public (unless leaked). What more does a guy need to do than enter a serious rehab facility for 3 months and seek the counsel of an experienced mentor for professional athletes?
If Tim Montgomery has garnered trust from the NFL by mentoring other players, I'd say his opinion on the matter will go a long way in this matter.
ATB
Footballguy
I can't find any info on Gordon's family but, from an article I read with a lotta info from his current mentor Tim Montgomery, he apparently "doesn't have anyone in his life who he can let down (by doing drugs or failing at football)." This gives me the impression that his parents aren't in the picture, but I could be wrong.
Montgomery also says that Gordon has always been surrounded by guys her grew up with who treat weed like regular cigarettes and that's been one of the harder things for him to get around-- just the guys in his life who are still doing it and keeping it around him.
I think it's Montgomery's hope that Gordon can separate himself from those influences this year, once he's outta rehab. And he clearly is of the opinion that the NFL will help with that process by giving him structure and a mean of making a living again.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Wow. You don't get this at all. Not about Gordon, not about the league, and definitely not about rehab.
Otis
Footballguy
flysack
Footballguy
flysack
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Why do you say that?
The entire country knows who Kaepernick is (thanks Fox News) and he is the biggest P.R. lightning rod in the league. Why do you think his situation is comparable to Gordon's?
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
You make the statement about the league and how it is wrong to punish players for mj when they drink and spray each other with champagne after big victories, and that weed is legal in several states. First off, weed is still illegal federally. Huge difference from alcohol. Secondly, your own personal assessment of the moral equivalence of weed to booze is completely irrelevant, as is mine (I happen to agree with your equivalence position btw). The simple fact is that the league is a private business and it has every right to enforce whatever restrictions it sees fit on its employees that it chooses, as long as those restrictions do not violate laws or the CBA. It sees marijuana as being illegal federally and detrimental to players, and so it has banned the use of the substance. Period. It has every right to do so, and if players want to be paid outrageous amounts to play in this league then they need to come to grips with the fact that they need to comply with its rules.
That takes us to Gordon. You make it out like he's just some juvenile who has just made a few questionable decisions and should simply be forgiven. It goes way beyond that. He has made a conscious choice that he will simply defy the league rules as stated above and yet expect to get paid outrageous amounts of money to play in the league. He has made a clear choice as an adult that smoking dope and taking the chance of getting caught is more important than earning a living as a player. Then when he was entered into the league's substance abuse program, beer was also prohibited. There's a reason for that which has to do with bad decision making as well as use of inebriating substances that you either can't or don't want to understand, but again your willingness or ability to understand that is neither here nor there. The point is that Gordon was given choices several times as well as the support system if the league - which is substantial - and each of those times he essentially flipped the league off and chose to engage in banned substances as opposed to playing football and getting paid crazy amounts to do so. That's a fundamental and deep character flaw, not just some silly indiscretion like you want to make it out to be.
Which takes us to rehab. The purpose of rehab is not to wean people from substances they shouldn't use if they want to stay healthy and/or employed. That's a side effect. The purpose of rehab is to fundamentally change a person's character and decision making processes so that they are acting in their own self interests in a positive rather than a negative way. It's about taking responsibility for your own actions and taking charge of your own future rather than blaming anyone or anything other than yourself for what has happened to date. Rehab is critical in a person like Gordon's situation. He needs to modify the way he views himself and the world around him completely differently if he is going to pull his life together and play in the NFL again. So yes, in the case of a person like Gordon and how badly he has affected his own life in what he has chosen to do to date, rehab is absolutely essential.
There, how's that? Clear enough for you?
.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Not exactly - the NFL spokesperson said it "hasn't made it to Goodell's desk".ATB said:
So wouldn't that imply that they had not made a deal with Gordon?
And why would he league make a deal with Gordon's personal trainer and not his agent, if a back-room deal were struck?
Finally if such a ###-for-tat deal were made, I would think the NFLPA would have to be involved. Gordon is still technically employed by the Cleveland Browns, and if Goodell makes such a deal, that would set precedent for the league, no? Is there nothing in the NFLPA agreement about suspensions and the conditions under wihich a player can return?
That's why I have a hard time with the speculation that Goodell is somehow flying by the seat of his pants here.
I agree they may not be obligated to publicize such a deal, but it's weird that when they gave Gordon conditions to refurn to the NFL last year they communicated it in detail to the public, but haven't said boo this year, if a deal were in place.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
NFL has no update on Gordon.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/09/17/nfl-has-nothing-to-say-about-josh-gordons-status/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/09/17/nfl-has-nothing-to-say-about-josh-gordons-status/
ATB
Footballguy
Just seems like you're making a lot of assumptions. For Gordon to go to 90-day, lockdown rehab leading up to the date of his possible reinstatement and to secure such a renowned life-coach/mentor, it's hard to not think he's been led to believe it would aide in his reinstatement. And EVEN IF there's been no communication, you have to agree that it's a good look on the kid to be proactive about recovery.
At this point, there's little reason to not reinstate him. Only question is when.
Dismattle
Footballguy
Tis a Forum.. Id be happy BB took time too explain. I'm not so sure you didn't understand, nor do I care that he explained (dumbed down) too make some of us appear quite ___.. But lets choose too block if feelings get hurt.. This is U.S.A., and just so happens too have Forums, with "needed" rules for some folks. No I'm not talking bad about ya sweetheart, bless ur heart though..
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
I'd be interested in hearing where I misappropriated your position. Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
He gets out of rehab Wednesday? Any FBGs going to meet him at the exit and give him a ride to Browns HQ so he doesn't get in a trouble?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I admit 100% that I'm speculating. It is not without some educated guessing, but everyone here is guessing & making assumptions. I'm not a league attorney, nor am I Roger Goodell, so obviously I don't know anything for certain.
That said, I'm considering it from the league's POV in responding to the assumptions that what Gordon did was nbd, and the league will welcome him with open arms upon his application for reinstatement.
Same look he was advised about last year when he missed the drug-test. And he went to a 90-day rehab. And that advice likely came from his trainer, his attorney, his agent. It doesn't need to be a secret back-room deal from the NFL to be a good idea.
And yes, it's a good look. Or wait, is it? Is it better, or worse that he now needed yet another 90 day rehab program? Because this makes at least 2 of those in the last year. Sounds worse to me. He'd declared himself clean after the last stint. Did he relapse? Sure sounds like it. That's probably bad.
Except he kept spitting in Goodell & the NFL's eye the last several times he was expected to be conditionally reinstated. And he failed to meet those conditions over and over again.
So it sounds like there's excellent reason for Goodell to drag his heels on a Josh Gordon reinstatement: he doesn't appreciate when players waste his time, with repeat offenses. And since the team that controls his rights is seemingly uninvolved, it sure seems like there'd be absolutely no reason to rush the decision either.
All guesses by me, no doubt.
Isn't the speculation that the NFL would have "little reason to not reinstate him" quite a bit of assumption on your behalf as well?
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JAMES!
Footballguy
Guy in his early 20's drinks alcohol and smokes weed. Let's take away his livelihood!! This whole thing is so ridiculous. Steve Sarkisian coached games drunk and the guy gets the keys to one of the best NFL offenses. Gordon smokes a J in his free time and the man is vilified. Let him play already.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Out of curiosity, does your work drug test you? If you test positive at hiring or while employed can you be terminated?
JAMES!
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Neither does mine.
I was drug tested prior to a college summer job working at a golf course
I was drug tested prior to a high school job as a bus boy
I was drug tested prior to my job in the health field
Point is, you don't need to operate heavy machinery to be drug tested at your job
Why do you think the NFL drug tests?
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One small step in his favor is the injury to C. Coleman, along with Britt playing poorly without passion. This could make the Browns consider him more than they would have, which would help him in clear the second hurdle of getting playing time on an NFL team. Of course, this is IF the NFL grants him reinstatement, and does so within the next 3 weeks or so.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
How much $ has Gordon cost the Browns to date? Millions?
How much of that was wasted?
If I loaned you $10 and you never paid me back I'd still hold grudge over it.
I'm unconvinced that an injury will cause the Browns to suddenly reverse course and pay Gordon millions again, but you might be right.
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JAMES!
Footballguy
Zero is what he has cost the Browns. They don't pay him when he is suspended.
The only time Gordon got paid more then a million was in his signing bonus in 2012, he has never been paid more than a million in annual salary yet. He is due to receive just over $1M this year but it will be prorated.
Money is not an issue here, like in the least.
The other thing is the Browns are not reversing course if they welcome him back, they never shut the door on him. Those reports last year saying they moved on were horrible reports. What I believe Hue and other said was they are moving on "now", which of course they would say since he was suspended and the focus was on the rest of the 2016 season.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Really? They didn't lose money by investing in him? Draft picks are cheap? Losing jersy sales and getting bad PR & potentially costing his team wins didn't cost the Browns anything?
Then later the inability to trade him (as many suspected would happen last year after showcasing him in the preseason) didn't cost them anything?
I beg to differ. The big picture has a cost.
Again - I'm talking about the big picture. Financially Gordon has been a disaster for the Browns.
Pure speculation on your behalf here. The Browns aren't actively helping Gordon now, so one can only assume that their position hasn't changed.
If you wish to assume that based on zero evidenced that's one option I suppose. Just not one i'd go with.
We will agree to disagree because I don't agree with any points you are trying to make. None of them.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Fair enough. Good luck with your Gordon shares. I don't think they'll pay off in 2017, but it's your roster.
The things you are trying to make an issue have nothing to do with if he pays off this year or not, that is a different discussion entirely.
mozzy84
Footballguy
to work at a golf course or be a bus boy? You gotta be kidding me. Hell doctors don't even get randoms right now...
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I do not believe the Browns have paid Gordon one dime while he's been suspended - and while he's been on the field he'd generally been a bargain relatively speaking.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Again; I'm talking about what Gordon has cost the team with his issues. Not what he's been paid.
I phrased it that way deliberately. Sorry if it wasn't as clear as intended.
Chaka
Footballguy
Yup, if you're not getting high you shouldn't be allowed to work at a golf course.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
You specifically said "money" and guessed "millions".
I'm not saying he hasn't let the team down - he sure has.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Right - I think he's cost the Browns money. They invested time (money) in him, they paid him while he was on the field, they likely took a big hit in Gordon jersey sales as compared to other superstar WRs in the league (soulfly bought 1,326 of them, sure but) they had a less competitive on-field product without him (ticket sales, ratings) and they lost the ability to deal him for draft picks or players which also has financial implications.
i believe Gordon's repeated suspensions have cost the Browns money as a franchise
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
He did not say random, he said prior, big difference. It's not uncommon at all for employers to drug test upon hire for even the lowest level of jobs. All of them reserve the right to randomly drug test later but rarely do that for lower level jobs. I mean even bus boys need to be relied upon, agree or not this is one of the things employers believe is indicative of how much you can be relied upon.
