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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (7 Viewers)

TripItUp said:
Somebody explain the "Holy Grail" idea to me like I'm a politics forum regular.

Did I' miss the equivalent to the Cup of Christ or something?
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The Holy Grail is the cup that Jesus drank from at the Last Supper. It is also the cup that collected his blood from the cross when he was speared by a Roman soldier. In the Age of Romance, when Mallory compiled the majority of Arthur myths (which most all modern fantasy is somehow touched by - imo) - the Grail itself became one of the biggest tropes and archetypes.

To retrieve the Holy Grail is the equivalent of becoming Pure - Worthy - Redeemed - Ascended - basically a savior trope.

Brienne's arc is the Thrones equivalent of Percival - who found the grail in the most common tales.

I hope that helps. 

Thanks for asking Trip.

 
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krista4 said:
You have a blank slate and 400 or so minutes to fill it out.  What are your major plot points and character arcs?  In detail...
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Not changing anything, but I want to add a GOT Christmas Special. It could start out with Sansa lonely at Winterfell, missing all of her old friends and family. By the end of the show, everyone has shown up for Christmas, even the visions of Dany, Joffrey, Cersei and Ramsey (their ghosts wave happily in the background,) and then Drogon lights the tree...

 
Kind of meh on the wrap up. Bran. Nah. Jon snow the rightful King, yeah. Sansa pulling the independent schtick, perfect.  

Would have been better if they just ended it last week with Dany sitting in the throne after she just got done torching everyone. I mean if you're not going to give the throne to the person that actually it belongs to (Jon) then finish dark.

 
I liked it overall. Some surprises.

One odd thing was that the very end kind of dragged out in a season that generally felt rushed.

After numerous seasons, the Starks finally come out on top!

 
Man of Constant Sorrow said:
TripItUp said:
Somebody explain the "Holy Grail" idea to me like I'm a politics forum regular.

Did I' miss the equivalent to the Cup of Christ or something?
Click to expand...
The Holy Grail is the cup that Jesus drank from at the Last Supper. It is also the cup that collected his blood from the cross when he was speared by a Roman soldier. In the Age of Romance, when Mallory compiled the majority of Arthur myths (which most all modern fantasy is somehow touched by - imo) - the Grail itself became one of the biggest tropes and archetypes.

To retrieve the Holy Grail is the equivalent of becoming Pure - Worthy - Redeemed - Ascended - basically a savior trope.

Brienne's arc is the Thrones equivalent of Percival - who found the grail in the most common tales.

I hope that helps. 

Thanks for asking Trip.
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Hey - I just realized that I may not have really answer your question - like - how did she get it?

IMO, she went from being laughed at by true knights - in the beginning - to be the SUPREME KNIGHT in the end.

Damn fine achievement - she deserved it too.

She is really the only one in the series that did/does.

 
Ilov80s said:
The shooting down of democracy was soooo heavy handed. The show spent a a lot  of time exposing the traditional model of society based on nobility and family allegiances as dangerous but it was even harsher in the way it showed the type of person who might want to overthrow it 
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no dany never tried to change the system it would always be her as queen, breaking the wheel is giving the power to the people, not being the long list of things she was.  she became Lenin to Cersei's Czar. burn #### down and build on the ashes,  and "free" the world too.  the picking of a king is the logical first step away from dynastic system.   baby steps

 
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A dark ending would have been more fitting for the show, imagine the following happening during the final season.

1. Jon Snow tries to kill  Daenerys but only after when the north declare independence and she threatens to "Burn them all". He is stopped by of all people Davos, who sees that the north being independent would greatly weaken the realm. He is later killed by Arya Stark in disguise 

2. Daenerys goes completely mad after JS tried to kill her and is now more than ever going to kill every Stark and all the houses that support them. This is the entire plot of season 8.

3. The final ending is when Daenerys defeating the north and killing all the Starks - except Bran.  Bran then wigs into the dragon Daenerys is riding and kills her. he is left without a family or anyone he loves in the world but becomes King of the seven kingdoms.

 
krista4 said:
There are some people here who clearly have been disappointed in the season (or maybe multiple seasons).  Totally get that.  So I’m wondering...could you sketch out the season you wanted?  I don’t mean “so-and-so shouldn’t have done that?” But a true reimagining.

You have a blank slate and 400 or so minutes to fill it out.  What are your major plot points and character arcs?  In detail...

I mean this only to say, as a smart collective what could be better?  And again this doesn’t mean random criticisms but a complete and satisfying story.  How are we getting from Point A (end of Season 7) to your desired end of Season 8?  In detail...
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I'm not going to give you much detail.

But the whole thing went off the rails in the 7th season, when Dany was convinced to take her eye off King's Landing. Attack Casterly Rock, which goes bad. Go capture a wight to show Cersei, which doesn't work and leads to losing a dragon, which leads to the White Walkers breaching the wall. Euron constantly showing up to wreck ####. A lot of the bad plotting, in my amateur opinion, comes from that choice to delay Dany taking power. And then obviously having her do so via murdering hundreds of thousands of people, and Jon STILL hemming and hawing about having to knife her (come the #### on).

I would've liked to see Danerys take the throne in s7. She has dragons, Tyrion knows you can land people at the bottom of the red keep and get in, she has armies. She could've gotten that done easily, and without the ridiculous scorched earth #### or screwing around with Casterly Rock and having Euron #### their #### up. That leaves the last two seasons of Danerys ruling Westeros, and all of the challenges that come with that. You can have the NK breach through the Castle Black gate and start marching South, setting up the big war. Or maybe the threat just looms larger and larger, and there's an open question about how to deal with it. You can still have the mini-coup/murder of Dany, but I think it's a better story if it's not so clear-cut as to why she had to be taken out. Maybe there's tension between Sansa and Dany, and Sansa gets into Jon's ear about murdering Dany. Maybe Arya assassinates her on Sansa's behalf.

It ends with the same type of small council at the end, but I think that the lords pick someone that they all think they can influence or will be more on their side, like Gendry. I don't buy that everyone would've been on board with Bran. I don't think many people are. But the last couple seasons have felt inorganic. I think they could've gotten there more organically, and without KL getting torched. Or Euron being a thing.

 
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
A dark ending would have been more fitting for the show, imagine the following happening during the final season.

1. Jon Snow tries to kill  Daenerys but only after when the north declare independence and she threatens to "Burn them all". He is stopped by of all people Davos, who sees that the north being independent would greatly weaken the realm. He is later killed by Arya Stark in disguise 

2. Daenerys goes completely mad after JS tried to kill her and is now more than ever going to kill every Stark and all the houses that support them. This is the entire plot of season 8.

3. The final ending is when Daenerys defeating the north and killing all the Starks - except Bran.  Bran then wigs into the dragon Daenerys is riding and kills her. he is left without a family or anyone he loves in the world but becomes King of the seven kingdoms.
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Danerys, queen of the people, non-genocidal and rational person, is such a better character than what we ended up with. And it would make her ultimate death far more of a tragedy.

 
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Good Posting Judge said:
I'm not going to give you much detail.

But the whole thing went off the rails in the 7th season, when Dany was convinced to take her eye off King's Landing. Attack Casterly Rock, which goes bad. Go capture a wight to show Cersei, which doesn't work and leads to losing a dragon, which leads to the White Walkers breaching the wall. Euron constantly showing up to wreck ####. A lot of the bad plotting, in my amateur opinion, comes from that choice to delay Dany taking power. And then obviously having her do so via murdering hundreds of thousands of people, and Jon STILL hemming and hawing about having to knife her (come the #### on).

I would've liked to see Danerys take the throne in s7. She has dragons, Tyrion knows you can land people at the bottom of the red keep and get in, she has armies. She could've gotten that done easily, and without the ridiculous scorched earth #### or screwing around with Casterly Rock and having Euron #### their #### up. That leaves the last two seasons of Danerys ruling Westeros, and all of the challenges that come with that. You can have the NK breach through the Castle Black gate and start marching South, setting up the big war. Or maybe the threat just looms larger and larger, and there's an open question about how to deal with it. You can still have the mini-coup/murder of Dany, but I think it's a better story if it's not so clear-cut as to why she had to be taken out. Maybe there's tension between Sansa and Dany, and Sansa gets into Jon's ear about murdering Dany. Maybe Arya assassinates her on Sansa's behalf.

It ends with the same type of small council at the end, but I think that the lords pick someone that they all think they can influence or will be more on their side, like Gendry. I don't buy that everyone would've been on board with Bran. I don't think many people are. But the last couple seasons have felt inorganic. I think they could've gotten there more organically, and without KL getting torched. Or Euron being a thing.
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Really nice breakdown.

Thnx.

I agree with a whole lot of this.

 
If the Unsullied demanded that Jon get some kind of punishment, and were somehow ok with him receiving a punishment that was a custom they really didn't know about, and was what they did all the time anyway (fight dudes, not have any sex), and THEN they just bailed...can't Jon just bug out and not do it? How would they know?

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
For some reason I thought winter would envelop the entire continent?
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Another poster pointed out earlier that a bit of green was shown in the North when Jon was walking by.

In regards to our Malory discussion, I think the King - alive and free - will keep the Green -

But, the pagan Merlin (Bran) on the Throne, will keep the magic vs. science battle alive - and thus the war of the season shall continue.

Am I making sense?

 
Really liked the finale. That was definitely the best they could have done given where they were going into the episode. 

It’s a real shame they decided to hit fast forward on the last couple seasons and just hit the Cliffs Notes, because there was a ton of missed potential. To go from where we were before the Battle of Winterfell to where the show ended only three episodes later is just bonkers.  

That said, at a 10,000 foot level I have no issue with the broad strokes of the story, and wouldn’t be crushed if Martin ended up the books in the same place.  (I’m skeptical Martin can get here in a way that feels more earned in just two books from where he left off, but I’ll leave that for the books thread.)

Still, probably my favorite show ever and certainly the only one I’ve nerded out over and anticipated as much from week to week.  

 
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Man of Constant Sorrow said:
Another poster pointed out earlier that a bit of green was shown in the North when Jon was walking by.

In regards to our Malory discussion, I think the King - alive and free - will keep the Green -

But, the pagan Merlin (Bran) on the Throne, will keep the magic vs. science battle alive - and thus the war of the season shall continue.

Am I making sense?
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I am meaning to go back to your posts, I just want to give the thought and time they deserve.

I think some of these insta-rewrites (not just here) are ignoring GRRM’s presence in the writing, right? He is consulting I presume? I don’t think the show runners everyone is always alluding to taking control the last 2 seasons really planted the Tolkienesque ‘Sailing West’ Easter egg there at the end, right?

You do make sense, of course. I thought the round table quality there was pretty frank. I’ll have to think about the nature vs science thing because in my mind the Magic was always behind the thrown not on it, but the allusion to nature is there. It also seems odd that Bran says he’ll just use his powers to find Drogon and then when he leaves we have a pretty standard modern cabinet meeting which is very technocratic.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
If the Unsullied demanded that Jon get some kind of punishment, and were somehow ok with him receiving a punishment that was a custom they really didn't know about, and was what they did all the time anyway (fight dudes, not have any sex), and THEN they just bailed...can't Jon just bug out and not do it? How would they know?
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From a purely story perspective, I think it comes down to potential political issues.

Jon was exiled by the new King - if the new King's first decree is ignored - well - things could get ugly, imo.

Also, Jon did kind of abandon his punishment by going into the true north - beyond the wall and the Nightswatch.

Best I can come up with.

 
Man of Constant Sorrow said:
Also, Jon did kind of abandon his punishment by going into the true north - beyond the wall and the Nightswatch.
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My theory is, and I’m sure somebody else said it,  Jon was never really supposed to rejoin the Nights Watch.  Tyrion BSed Grey Worm into thinking either the NW was really still a thing and/or Jon was actually going to take the black.

Honestly, I think it was all just a ruse to allow Jon to avoid execution.

 
krista4 said:
There are some people here who clearly have been disappointed in the season (or maybe multiple seasons).  Totally get that.  So I’m wondering...could you sketch out the season you wanted?  I don’t mean “so-and-so shouldn’t have done that?” But a true reimagining.

You have a blank slate and 400 or so minutes to fill it out.  What are your major plot points and character arcs?  In detail...

I mean this only to say, as a smart collective what could be better?  And again this doesn’t mean random criticisms but a complete and satisfying story.  How are we getting from Point A (end of Season 7) to your desired end of Season 8?  In detail...
Click to expand...
I will try to do this quickly.   army of dead surround winterfell but do not attack, no need to let them starve.  night king goes south with viscerion to destroy kings landing. winterfell group realizes what is going on and break out of winterfell led by dragons and dothraki charge but horrible carnage of civilians and foot soldiers .  winterfell group runs south.  Cersei seeing the night king manages to escape but flees to another castle, harrenhal most likely, with remnants of her forces, chased by the dead of kings landing.  she is saved only by the night king being tempted to return north to try and catch the winterfell group out in the open. winterfell and Cersei join forces with winterfell group at harrenhal.   there they have final battle with night king, essentially an ending to this battle like in the show.  dany is declared queen after battle but Cersei is of course unhappy with this.  there is rumblings that dany might now still go mad queen,  with the difficulty of uniting the kingdoms peacefully eluding her.  Cersei knifes her like Jon did in the show during a crowning ceremony or display of loyalty.  drogon kills Cersei much more intimately than just breathing fire.  Jon and drogon fly off with Dany's body, Jon fulfills the dream of breaking the wheel by forsaking the game and power altogether.  then a similar ending could happen with bran taking the throne and steps to democracy being similar to the shows ending.  

along the way ideas I would incorporate, 

bran uses mental powers combined with the dragons being ridden by dany and Jon to hold off and occupy the night king . 

the white walkers themselves are bad ### fighters and get some meaningful character kills.  

the focus is much more on the night king and Walker's being the big baddies, both if the expectations of the ruling of Westeros is based on power first and foremost it will poison even the greatest victory.  

first episode is essentially the same, episodes 2 to 4 deal with night king and battles.  episodes 5 and 6 similar,  deal with aftermath. 

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
You do make sense, of course. I thought the round table quality there was pretty frank. I’ll have to think about the nature vs science thing because in my mind the Magic was always behind the thrown not on it, but the allusion to nature is there. It also seems odd that Bran says he’ll just use his powers to find Drogon and then when he leaves we have a pretty standard modern cabinet meeting which is very technocratic.
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As always, you nailed it - right in the highest point bull's eye.

The Merlin on the Throne was my biggest shock - apparently I was the only one though, as all the odds makers had him as the favorite. I am not changing my view of Bran; I am changing my view of what GRRM is trying to say.

On the second bold, I think that was necessary in order to keep Dany's ultimate fate unknow - just like Arthurs (in most versions). 

More below.

SaintsInDome2006 said:
I think some of these insta-rewrites (not just here) are ignoring GRRM’s presence in the writing, right? He is consulting I presume? I don’t think the show runners everyone is always alluding to taking control the last 2 seasons really planted the Tolkienesque ‘Sailing West’ Easter egg there at the end, right?
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Agreed, but I do not know for sure how much he is involved. I am woefully ignorant of most popular lit on this.

However:

1) the Flying to Eastern Avalon by the Queen - unsure if she is dead or alive - like Arthur

2) The journey to North Avalon by the King - alive and well - unlike Arthur

3) The Sailing into West Avalon by Arya - who's fate was altered by Sandor while she stood upon The Three Sisters - The three who accompanied Arthur into the West in so many versions?

It is too much for me to ignore, but...hey...I'm odd.

SaintsInDome2006 said:
I am meaning to go back to your posts, I just want to give the thought and time they deserve.
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Take your time - I am still reeling and trying to put pieces together.

Thanks for the discussion.

 
I kind of lol though. That proposition by Sam that people choose their leaders was pretty funny. Kind of pythonesque. I’m just thinking of Dany’s claim that the people of KL were loyal to Cersei. It is kind of ridiculous for the poor average Landinger. Aerys is king and he threatens to blow the whole thing up. Then Robert then Joffrey then Tomen then Cersei, then Dany like 20 (?) years later just torches the place down like pops intended. In the interim, aside from the brief de facto rule of the Sparrow, did anything really change? Considering the monarchical system it didn’t really matter to them, they would have accepted the Targaryen Restoration just as they had all the rest.

 
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OrtonToOlsen said:
My theory is, and I’m sure somebody else said it,  Jon was never really supposed to rejoin the Nights Watch.  Tyrion BSed Grey Worm into thinking either the NW was really still a thing and/or Jon was actually going to take the black.

Honestly, I think it was all just a ruse to allow Jon to avoid execution.
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I can't argue. As far as I know, none of that was on screen.

That sounds exactly like Tyrion, and...I don't think it interferes with any of my Arthur theories - thus, I like it.

Finally, you know more about historical government than I do, and I was trying to use that piece.

Thnx.

 
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