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WW2 question (1 Viewer)

pantherclub

Footballguy
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?

 
Would the Germans have gotten the A-Bomb first if we weren't in the war? Or would we have invented it at about the same time anyway?

 
Over time the axis would have grew and eventually would have taken america down if we had waited. England would have been eventually starved in to submission and russia overun by a german army twice as large with no western front to worry about. Russia and england would have been significantly weak without the lend-lease deal

The US could have defended itself and self sufficient for a long time but against a huge axis it would have been an economic war of attrition they would eventually lose

Even if pearl harbor hadnt happened the US had to get in the war at some point to save the world

 
Operation Barbarossa had stalled by the time of Pearl Harbor. American Lend Lease was significant but probably not a decisive factor on the Eastern Front. The British couldn't have successfully opened a second front without American forces. The best case for Germany at that point was some kind of stalemate or peace treaty in the east and continued domination of Western Europe.

There would have eventually been some conflict in the Pacific Theater that would have brought the US into the war. Pearl Harbor was a preemptive strike.

 
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
This is kind of self defeating:

what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war?
We got involved in the war because the Axis attacked us and declared war on us.

The Axis would have never invaded us...
They tried to overcome that problem by getting us to quit after being attacked in the first place. Didn't happen, gamble failed.

Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.

 
The interesting question about this hypothetical is would the axis have stayed together long enough to truly take over much of the civilized world? In other words, would Germany Italy Japan and the other countries have found common ground enough to rule the other lands together? I would imagine with all that craziness there would be dissension that would break up.

 
From: http://teachinghistory.org/history-content/ask-a-historian/24107

For more information

Philip K. ****, The Man in the High Castle (1962), in which Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan win World War II. The East Coast and Midwest of the United States are occupied by Germany and the West Coast by Japan.

Harry Turtledove, In the Presence of Mine Enemies (2003), in which the U.S. does not enter the war, and the Axis Powers win. Germany then bombs the U.S. in the 1970s with nuclear weapons and defeats it.

Robert Harris, Fatherland (1992), another one in which Germany wins the war, although the U.S. defeats Japan.

Norman Spinrad, The Iron Dream (1972), which is presented as a science fiction novel written by pulp-fiction artist Adolf Hitler after he flees Germany to live in the United States after the end of the First World War.

Jo Walton’s "Small Change" series [Farthing (2006), Ha’penny (2007), and Half a Crown (2008)], in which the U.S. fails to provide aid to the UK to resist Germany and Britain makes peace with the Nazi Reich. Germany continues a drawn-out war with the Soviet Union, and Britain turns into a fascist state.

Newt Gingrich and William R. Forstchen, 1945 (1995), in which the U.S. defeats Japan but not Germany, and a subsequent "cold war" ensues between the U.S. and Germany.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor we had to protect ourselves and via the Tripartite Pact, Germany had to protect Japan.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor we had to protect ourselves and via the Tripartite Pact, Germany had to protect Japan.
Yes, however you want to describe it.

I think the OP is asking a question which could not be, it's not as if the USA went diving headfirst into WWII. The axis attacked the US.

 
Vike Me said:
From: http://teachinghistory.org/history-content/ask-a-historian/24107

For more information

Philip K. ****, The Man in the High Castle (1962), in which Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan win World War II. The East Coast and Midwest of the United States are occupied by Germany and the West Coast by Japan.

Harry Turtledove, In the Presence of Mine Enemies (2003), in which the U.S. does not enter the war, and the Axis Powers win. Germany then bombs the U.S. in the 1970s with nuclear weapons and defeats it.

Robert Harris, Fatherland (1992), another one in which Germany wins the war, although the U.S. defeats Japan.

Norman Spinrad, The Iron Dream (1972), which is presented as a science fiction novel written by pulp-fiction artist Adolf Hitler after he flees Germany to live in the United States after the end of the First World War.

Jo Walton’s "Small Change" series [Farthing (2006), Ha’penny (2007), and Half a Crown (2008)], in which the U.S. fails to provide aid to the UK to resist Germany and Britain makes peace with the Nazi Reich. Germany continues a drawn-out war with the Soviet Union, and Britain turns into a fascist state.

Newt Gingrich and William R. Forstchen, 1945 (1995), in which the U.S. defeats Japan but not Germany, and a subsequent "cold war" ensues between the U.S. and Germany.
I think this one...

Jo Walton’s "Small Change" series [Farthing (2006), Ha’penny (2007), and Half a Crown (2008)], in which the U.S. fails to provide aid to the UK to resist Germany and Britain makes peace with the Nazi Reich. Germany continues a drawn-out war with the Soviet Union, and Britain turns into a fascist state.
... is the most intriguing if you add in the assumption that the Japs had managed to think intelligently and not attack us (of course that's one major problem with fascism/dictatorships, they act rashly...).

We might have seen a death struggle between Germany & Japan vs USSR; Japan would have consumed more of China and eastern Siberia and Mongolia, while Germany may have slowly been dragged down and defeated by the USSR, which would have left all of Europe destroyed, penniless, impoverished, utterly communist.

And there would have been far greater presure in the US to become fascist/communist as well. It could have been ugly.

 
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?

 
DSP said:
Over time the axis would have grew and eventually would have taken america down if we had waited. England would have been eventually starved in to submission and russia overun by a german army twice as large with no western front to worry about. Russia and england would have been significantly weak without the lend-lease deal

The US could have defended itself and self sufficient for a long time but against a huge axis it would have been an economic war of attrition they would eventually lose

Even if pearl harbor hadnt happened the US had to get in the war at some point to save the world
One aspect would have been the mad scramble for colonies in Africa and Asia - can you imagine all the oil in the mideast that would have been up for grabs?

Nazi Germany with a vice grip on the oil reserves would have been very bad for the world.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
This is kind of self defeating:

what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war?
We got involved in the war because the Axis attacked us and declared war on us.

The Axis would have never invaded us...
They tried to overcome that problem by getting us to quit after being attacked in the first place. Didn't happen, gamble failed.

Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
No matter what you post the Germans or whoever at teh time would never have the capability to invade the US. We had resources that the Germans would have to acknowledge. Not saying it wasnt the correct thing to do but the US could have waited on the sidelines for many years without being engaged.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
This is kind of self defeating:

what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war?
We got involved in the war because the Axis attacked us and declared war on us.

The Axis would have never invaded us...
They tried to overcome that problem by getting us to quit after being attacked in the first place. Didn't happen, gamble failed.

Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
No matter what you post the Germans or whoever at teh time would never have the capability to invade the US. We had resources that the Germans would have to acknowledge. Not saying it wasnt the correct thing to do but the US could have waited on the sidelines for many years without being engaged.
How would we have done that?

Japan attacked us, Germany declared war on us.

I think what you're getting at is if somehow they had made the right call for them and left us alone.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor we had to protect ourselves and via the Tripartite Pact, Germany had to protect Japan.
Yes, however you want to describe it.

I think the OP is asking a question which could not be, it's not as if the USA went diving headfirst into WWII. The axis attacked the US.
I know what you are saying but hypothetically we didnt have to get involved even after being attacked. I am glad we did but my main point is that the US could have never been invaded by a foreign army.

 
The only way US could have stayed out of the war is if they aligned with Germany and Japan, which never would have happened. Being neutral wasn't an option.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
This is kind of self defeating:

what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war?
We got involved in the war because the Axis attacked us and declared war on us.

The Axis would have never invaded us...
They tried to overcome that problem by getting us to quit after being attacked in the first place. Didn't happen, gamble failed.

Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
No matter what you post the Germans or whoever at teh time would never have the capability to invade the US. We had resources that the Germans would have to acknowledge. Not saying it wasnt the correct thing to do but the US could have waited on the sidelines for many years without being engaged.
How would we have done that?

Japan attacked us, Germany declared war on us.

I think what you're getting at is if somehow they had made the right call for them and left us alone.
But Germany and/or Japan could never attack the mainland states. They hit a naval base. Again, hypothetically would could they have possibly done over the long haul?

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor we had to protect ourselves and via the Tripartite Pact, Germany had to protect Japan.
Yes, however you want to describe it.

I think the OP is asking a question which could not be, it's not as if the USA went diving headfirst into WWII. The axis attacked the US.
I know what you are saying but hypothetically we didnt have to get involved even after being attacked. I am glad we did but my main point is that the US could have never been invaded by a foreign army.
Actually - here's some historical trivia for you:

there was a general in the US army around WWI or right after.

He drew up a set of plans to defend the US west coast in the event of an attack and he pointed out that we had no means to get forces to the west coast to defend an attack. Basically he was more or less ignored.

Lea even wrote a book on the subject.

Mind you after WW2 Eisenhower banged this same drum and that was part of the reason for the building of the interstate system.

Anyway Lea did have some followers though - in Japan. Lea's theory provided for invasions in Alaska, in the Aleutians, and around northern California and other points. Japan used his theories, which included the presumption that the pacific fleet would have to be taken out to clear the way.

An invasion of the west coast was very much doable.

 
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An invasion to any coast in the USofA is completely and utterly impossible for a multitude of reasons. Everyone with a brain knew that.

 
Both Germany and Japan were interested in total world domination. If Germany takes over Europe and North Africa while Japans conquers Asia and Pacific, they would have strangled our trade and cut us off from rubber and oil.

ETA: It would have been inevitable for the US to get involved eventually

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
This is kind of self defeating:

what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war?
We got involved in the war because the Axis attacked us and declared war on us.

The Axis would have never invaded us...
They tried to overcome that problem by getting us to quit after being attacked in the first place. Didn't happen, gamble failed.

Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
No matter what you post the Germans or whoever at teh time would never have the capability to invade the US. We had resources that the Germans would have to acknowledge. Not saying it wasnt the correct thing to do but the US could have waited on the sidelines for many years without being engaged.
How would we have done that?

Japan attacked us, Germany declared war on us.

I think what you're getting at is if somehow they had made the right call for them and left us alone.
But Germany and/or Japan could never attack the mainland states. They hit a naval base. Again, hypothetically would could they have possibly done over the long haul?
Well that is possible.

Japan anticipated that we would fold. That could have happened, but it was never possible politically. After the attack at Pearl Harbor even the Republican isolationists threw up their hands and realized that it was on. The USA did not think like that.

Now we could have just let Japan and Germany be in a state of war with us - our shipping would have been devastated and our economy would have been destroyed. Eventually there would have been very bad consequences.

Also as I pointed out the Japs very definitely could have invaded the west coast, the USA took that threat very seriously though they were quite exposed for some time.

 
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An invasion to any coast in the USofA is completely and utterly impossible for a multitude of reasons. Everyone with a brain knew that.
Do you realize how few troops we had on the west coast and how long it would have taken us to get what troops we did have out there?

Lea’s second book, The Valor of Ignorance, examined American defense and in part prophesied a war between America and Japan. It created controversy and instantly elevated his reputation as a credible geo-political spokesman. Two retired U.S. Army generals, including former Army Chief-of-Staff Adna R. Chaffee, wrote glowing introductions to the book, which also contained a striking frontispiece photograph of Lea in his lieutenant general’s uniform. The book contained maps of a hypothetical Japanese invasion of California and the Philippines and was very popular among American military officers, particularly those stationed in the Philippines over the next generation. General Douglas MacArthur and his staff, for example, paid close attention to the book in planning the defense of the Philippines. The Japanese military also paid close attention to the book, which was translated into Japanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Lea

Japan had been in war in Asia since around 1931 - basically if they had consolidated Phillipines and gotten a hold of the oil deposits there and around China they could have waited a few years more and taken us out. One main problem was we kept our carriers.

 
You could make an argument against shipping but the US had major resources at the time for the world where I doubt they would shun us completely.

and again for the 10th time, there was never ever any significant threat for anyone to invade especially on the west coast. The logistics and scope themselves make it impossible

 
An invasion to any coast in the USofA is completely and utterly impossible for a multitude of reasons. Everyone with a brain knew that.
Do you realize how few troops we had on the west coast and how long it would have taken us to get what troops we did have out there?

Lea’s second book, The Valor of Ignorance, examined American defense and in part prophesied a war between America and Japan. It created controversy and instantly elevated his reputation as a credible geo-political spokesman. Two retired U.S. Army generals, including former Army Chief-of-Staff Adna R. Chaffee, wrote glowing introductions to the book, which also contained a striking frontispiece photograph of Lea in his lieutenant general’s uniform. The book contained maps of a hypothetical Japanese invasion of California and the Philippines and was very popular among American military officers, particularly those stationed in the Philippines over the next generation. General Douglas MacArthur and his staff, for example, paid close attention to the book in planning the defense of the Philippines. The Japanese military also paid close attention to the book, which was translated into Japanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Lea

Japan had been in war in Asia since around 1931 - basically if they had consolidated Phillipines and gotten a hold of the oil deposits there and around China they could have waited a few years more and taken us out. One main problem was we kept our carriers.
quoting a random book doesnt make it any more feasible about invading the US. Again the logistics of it all alone make it unrealistic then add the scope of the invasion, the armed populace and just the overall size of the country.

 
You could make an argument against shipping but the US had major resources at the time for the world where I doubt they would shun us completely.

and again for the 10th time, there was never ever any significant threat for anyone to invade especially on the west coast. The logistics and scope themselves make it impossible
Does this presume we would surrender and cut out all aid to the enemies of the Japs and Nazis?

Also: pretty much 1941 we were looking at a legitimate chance all the world's non-US oil would have been in USSR, Nazi and Imperial hands. How does that story end?

 
An invasion to any coast in the USofA is completely and utterly impossible for a multitude of reasons. Everyone with a brain knew that.
Do you realize how few troops we had on the west coast and how long it would have taken us to get what troops we did have out there?

Lea’s second book, The Valor of Ignorance, examined American defense and in part prophesied a war between America and Japan. It created controversy and instantly elevated his reputation as a credible geo-political spokesman. Two retired U.S. Army generals, including former Army Chief-of-Staff Adna R. Chaffee, wrote glowing introductions to the book, which also contained a striking frontispiece photograph of Lea in his lieutenant general’s uniform. The book contained maps of a hypothetical Japanese invasion of California and the Philippines and was very popular among American military officers, particularly those stationed in the Philippines over the next generation. General Douglas MacArthur and his staff, for example, paid close attention to the book in planning the defense of the Philippines. The Japanese military also paid close attention to the book, which was translated into Japanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Lea

Japan had been in war in Asia since around 1931 - basically if they had consolidated Phillipines and gotten a hold of the oil deposits there and around China they could have waited a few years more and taken us out. One main problem was we kept our carriers.
quoting a random book doesnt make it any more feasible about invading the US. Again the logistics of it all alone make it unrealistic then add the scope of the invasion, the armed populace and just the overall size of the country.
That wasn't a random book, Japanese military leaders like Tojo and his staff were reading it. It was influential.

Japan had taken over a good deal of South China, Manchuria, Korea, Indochina, Sakhalin, east India, Phillipines, Indonesia, Malaysia, they were a major force.

 
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Japan's biggest mistake was their failure to take out our gasoline supplies on Hawaii that day. They were exposed and readily seen, but they ignored them. If they had been hit with even a single bomb, the entire gas supply for the Pacific fleet would have been gone, and the US might never have recovered in the Pacific. Would have been a huge reversal of fortune.

 
I think there was a foregone conclusion that Japan had to butt heads with the U.S. to further their expansionist ideas. I guess they could have put off Pacific expansion and pushed their agenda towards Australia and any of the remanants of the British Asian Empire....including maybe India.

I think the aftermath of the War in Europe is much worse and I don't think by then.....Nazi Germany could have stopped the Soviet Union. I know not worrying about a second front opening in Europe would have allowed a number of divisions to move from France to the U.S.S.R., plus any units in Africa could have been reassigned.....,but IIRC, I don't think that would have mattered. It would have been bloodier and it would have been a little bit longer.....but I don't think the Soviets stop until they get to the English Channel.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor we had to protect ourselves and via the Tripartite Pact, Germany had to protect Japan.
He was Hitler!!!....if he changed his mind and didn't help...I don't think anyone would have been surprised. Hitler gambled that the Pacific Fleet was done....he had spotty intelligence that failed him. I'm sure he didn't really care about Japan....but was prolly more interested in anything that he could have laid claim to in the Pacific via him defeating Great Britain.

 
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Harry Turtledove did a really good two book novel series on what would have happened if Japan had followed up the attack on Pearl Harbor with a land invasion of Hawaii. Worth a read if you're interested on the topic. He also did a stand alone novel on what would have happened if Germany had engaged in guerrilla warfare after Berlin had fallen.

 
Not really a history buff, but I haven't really gotten the impression that the US involvement was crucial to winning the war. Russia beat up Germany pretty hard on their own.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
No, Germany declared war on us.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor we had to protect ourselves and via the Tripartite Pact, Germany had to protect Japan.
He was Hitler!!!....if he changed his mind and didn't help...I don't think anyone would have been surprised. Hitler gambled that the Pacific Fleet was done....he had spotty intelligence that failed him. I'm sure he didn't really care about Japan....but was prolly more interested in anything that he could have laid claim to in the Pacific via him defeating Great Britain.
People may be forgetting just how weak the USA was in December 1941.

The army was on stand-down, the technology the military was using was stuck in WW1, it wasn't exactly frightening to the Nazi and *** war machines.

 
America could have stayed out of the War by coming to an agreement with Japan, some sort of deal like the Nazi Soviet pact for the Pacific. Presumably that would mean Roosevelt would have lost the 1936 or 1940 election. The only reason Germany declared war was because Hitler assumed America would after Pearl Harbor any way, and it was an attempt to get Japan to do the same with Russia. Hitler's plan involved taking on the U.S. only after Russia and Britain were defeated.

The winner of the Russian and German War dominates Europe with a presumably mauled Britain in danger of being finally conquered by Russia or Germany. Would depend a lot on how much America gave to Japan in the pact or agreement. Some sort of three way cold war probably develops.

 
Also would agree that a Japanese or German invasion of America is logistically improbable . Only the massive industrial might of America proved capable of supporting armies across the vastness of the Oceans.

 
Also, the Japs probably would have taken Hawaii next if we had stood down.
:goodposting: The US victory in the Pacific Theather was "by the skin of our teeth".
That's not really true. Once Midway occurred, it was a steady ### kicking as our carriers routed their fleet across the Pacific.
I as well thought it was a landslide victory until we moved to Japan (been here two years/return stateside summer of 2016) and learned about the ground battles (specifically the Battle of Okinawa). Amazing the amount of luck that can play into a victory.

 
Without the second front created by the US, there is a very good chance Russia falls.

 
Without the second front created by the US, there is a very good chance Russia falls.
:no:

Battle of Moscow Dec 1941

Stalingrad Sept 1942-Feb 1943

Kasserine Pass Feb 1943

Sicily landings July 1943

Kursk July 1943

Normandy landings June 1944

The Lend Lease shipments certainly helped Russia but the second front didn't happen until well after the tide in the East had turned.

 
Without the second front created by the US, the Warsaw Pact would have included France, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark.

 
DSP said:
Over time the axis would have grew and eventually would have taken america down if we had waited. England would have been eventually starved in to submission and russia overun by a german army twice as large with no western front to worry about. Russia and england would have been significantly weak without the lend-lease deal

The US could have defended itself and self sufficient for a long time but against a huge axis it would have been an economic war of attrition they would eventually lose

Even if pearl harbor hadnt happened the US had to get in the war at some point to save the world
'MURICA

:suds:

 

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