WW2 question (1 Viewer)

[Tom Servo]

The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.

And yet upthread I proved you wrong.

 

[pantherclub]

The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.

And yet upthread I proved you wrong.

what post?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

PantherClub (let me guess, Panthers fan?) has a serious problem getting out the front door with his premise.

First of all it's a historical fact that the US military considered a west coast invasion a very real possibility, at least at the beginning of the war.

Secondly, the Japanese were the experts on amphibious warfare and seaborne invasions - they took South China, Manchuria, Korea, Phillipines, Singapore, Malaysia, not to mention all the islands in the Marshalls, Marianas, eslewhere in Polynesia and Micronesia.

Thirdly, he presumes we are sitting out the war (which requireds a further assumption of no Pearl Harbor). If that happens, then the Japanese consolidate their gains, wait and then can take Hawaii (or maybe take it early if we really do nothing as he says).

There was a battle plan for invasion drawn up by Homer Lea. This man was extremely influential in his time. He drew it up for the US military, to prepare a defensive plan. He was not so much as ignored (he was respected) but rather the USA did not do anything to actually implement defenses. The USA had basically drawn its military down to nothing since WW1. There was no interstate system. There was a rail system, but it was largely turn of the century in construction and fighting an invasion would have required getting large amounts of infantry and armored weaponry - which we did not have - across the Rocky Mountain divide. This would have been extremely difficult. Japan had extreme advantage in air power.

If anyone cares to see this book, it's here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=AppDAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=homer+lea&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lMTzUqa2C4HkyAHHuoDQDg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=homer%20lea&f=false

There are several charts and maps, including p. 192 and 268.

Imperial Japan had defeated Russia in 1905, they invaded and took control over Korea at that time - another amphibious invasion.

Lea was a consultant to Sun Yat Sen in the overthrow of the Chinese imperial dynasty. He predicted the rise of Nazi Germany's military power and Soviet Russia's.

The man knew his stuff and it's a historical fact that Japan relied upon his plans in part in formulating their invasion of the Phillipines (also in the book), and further that the US military took them to be the sole conceptualization of what they would face. Japan could not have carried on its wars across southeast Asia and the USA at the same time, but once done with their conquests, which would have been made easier by the USA also not being at war with Germany as well, as PantherClub also suggests, a west coast invasion would have been more than feasible. That fact alone may have persuaded the USA to further negotiate and make concession, making an invasion unecessary, but it would have been very possible and would have become moreso over time.

Japan also had its own nuclear research program, which has not been noted here yet, though it ws not as advanced as Germany's.

 

[Eephus]

The Germans could have "island hopped" over to America. England, Iceland, Greenland, Canada. Kind of what the US did in the PTO.

This would have required tactical air superiority like the Allies had in the channel in 1944 and in the Pacific in 44-45. Even if the Germans had long-range missiles, the US could have moved aircraft production out of range of them. The Germans didn't have any aircraft carriers so they would have had to work within the confines of land based airfields. This seems only a bit more practical than tunneling under the Atlantic.

 

[Tom Servo]

The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.

And yet upthread I proved you wrong.

what post?

This one.

In the Battle of the Aleutian Islands (June 1942-August 1943) during World War II (1939-45), U.S. troops fought to remove Japanese garrisons established on a pair of U.S.-owned islands west of Alaska. In June 1942, Japan had seized the remote, sparsely inhabited islands of Attu and Kiska, in the Aleutian Islands. It was the only U.S. soil Japan would claim during the war in the Pacific. The maneuver was possibly designed to divert U.S. forces during Japan's attack on Midway Island (June 4-7, 1942) in the central Pacific. It’s also possible the Japanese believed holding the two islands could prevent the U.S. from invading Japan via the Aleutians. Either way, the Japanese occupation was a blow to American morale. In May 1943, U.S. troops retook Attu and three months later reclaimed Kiska, and in the process gained experience that helped them prepare for the long "island-hopping" battles to come as World War II raged across the Pacific Ocean.

Sounds like we were invaded by the Japanese...

 

[Copeman]

The Germans could have "island hopped" over to America. England, Iceland, Greenland, Canada. Kind of what the US did in the PTO.

This would have required tactical air superiority like the Allies had in the channel in 1944 and in the Pacific in 44-45. Even if the Germans had long-range missiles, the US could have moved aircraft production out of range of them. The Germans didn't have any aircraft carriers so they would have had to work within the confines of land based airfields. This seems only a bit more practical than tunneling under the Atlantic.

Strategy 3

 

[matttyl]

The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.

If Germany had taken over all of Europe and didn't declare war toward the beginning, I'm not so sure invading us would be impossible at some point.

Yup. If Germany had done that one the east, and Japan controlled the Pacific in the west (specifically Hawaii), I'm not sure that we couldn't have been invaded on both coasts at the same time. If we had the ability to invade the beaches of Normandy, why wouldn't they have the ability to do the same?

Because the English Channel is extremely narrow. And even then we barely managed it.Panther club is probably right. Invasion would have been very unlikely. But isolated, surrounded by enemies, unable to trade, we would have been forced to surrender world domination to the Axis. And since they would have developed nukes eventually, along with rockets before we did, we would have been screwed.

I'm not sure you'd call Pearl Harbor an "invasion", but that was across the vast Pacific and we didn't really see it coming. If they really wanted to finish Hawaii off, and invade it, they could have.

 

[Eephus]

The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.

And yet upthread I proved you wrong.

what post?

This one.

In the Battle of the Aleutian Islands (June 1942-August 1943) during World War II (1939-45), U.S. troops fought to remove Japanese garrisons established on a pair of U.S.-owned islands west of Alaska. In June 1942, Japan had seized the remote, sparsely inhabited islands of Attu and Kiska, in the Aleutian Islands. It was the only U.S. soil Japan would claim during the war in the Pacific. The maneuver was possibly designed to divert U.S. forces during Japan's attack on Midway Island (June 4-7, 1942) in the central Pacific. It’s also possible the Japanese believed holding the two islands could prevent the U.S. from invading Japan via the Aleutians. Either way, the Japanese occupation was a blow to American morale. In May 1943, U.S. troops retook Attu and three months later reclaimed Kiska, and in the process gained experience that helped them prepare for the long "island-hopping" battles to come as World War II raged across the Pacific Ocean.

Sounds like we were invaded by the Japanese...

that's like saying the Argentinians invaded the UK during the Falklands War

 

[pantherclub]

The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.

And yet upthread I proved you wrong.

what post?

This one.

In the Battle of the Aleutian Islands (June 1942-August 1943) during World War II (1939-45), U.S. troops fought to remove Japanese garrisons established on a pair of U.S.-owned islands west of Alaska. In June 1942, Japan had seized the remote, sparsely inhabited islands of Attu and Kiska, in the Aleutian Islands. It was the only U.S. soil Japan would claim during the war in the Pacific. The maneuver was possibly designed to divert U.S. forces during Japan's attack on Midway Island (June 4-7, 1942) in the central Pacific. It’s also possible the Japanese believed holding the two islands could prevent the U.S. from invading Japan via the Aleutians. Either way, the Japanese occupation was a blow to American morale. In May 1943, U.S. troops retook Attu and three months later reclaimed Kiska, and in the process gained experience that helped them prepare for the long "island-hopping" battles to come as World War II raged across the Pacific Ocean.

Sounds like we were invaded by the Japanese...

um, I dont think that even warrants a response

 

[Sarnoff]

The Japanese bombed Los Angeles with fire balloon, and a Japanese sub shelled an oil platform off Santa Barbara. A German U-boat was sunk on the shores of Rhode Island. Several more U-boats landed on Canadian shores. Had a few events in Europe gone a different way early, no doubt the US would have had to repel an invasion.

 

[Spanky267]

Also, the Japs probably would have taken Hawaii next if we had stood down.

The US victory in the Pacific Theather was "by the skin of our teeth".

That's not really true. Once Midway occurred, it was a steady ### kicking as our carriers routed their fleet across the Pacific.

I as well thought it was a landslide victory until we moved to Japan (been here two years/return stateside summer of 2016) and learned about the ground battles (specifically the Battle of Okinawa). Amazing the amount of luck that can play into a victory.

It was a landslide. After Midway the Japanese were basically shifitng from being the aggressor to being on the defensive. They used the dedication of their soliders and sailors to their advantage and prolonged the war. It was inevitable after we broke the japanese cipher, blunted their advance on Australia at New Guinea and the Coral Sea and then routed them at Midway that the tides of war had shifted to favor the U.S. Yamamoto warned against this and 6 months after their thorough routing of the US Navy at Pearl Harbor, the point of the spear they used to strike at the U.S. with was broken. After that point US industrial might and ingenuity overwhelmed the beleaguered Japanese. Their only choice was to fight to the death in battles like Tarawa, Guam, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They had hoped that in doing this that the cost would be so high to the Americans that they would halt their advance. This was not to be. However Allied leaders were concerned about potential Japanese and Allied casualties in the proposed Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. Estimates were for casualities in excess of 1 million on the side of the Allies and a fear of self inflicted genocide on the part of the Japanese should Emperor Hirohito not command the population to surrender. The atomic bombings and internal strife in the upper echelons of the Japanese Military and Political wings hastened their surrender and ultimately saved countless lives.

 

[Mad Cow]

Gotta love the FFA. Let's start some iWars about suppositions and conjecture on what might have happened if history were different from events 70 years ago.

 

[Spanky267]

The Germans could have "island hopped" over to America. England, Iceland, Greenland, Canada. Kind of what the US did in the PTO.

This would have required tactical air superiority like the Allies had in the channel in 1944 and in the Pacific in 44-45. Even if the Germans had long-range missiles, the US could have moved aircraft production out of range of them. The Germans didn't have any aircraft carriers so they would have had to work within the confines of land based airfields. This seems only a bit more practical than tunneling under the Atlantic.

Agreed. The Germans made several errors that ultimately made invasion of the British Isles and the US nearly impossible for them. Hitler didnt properly develop the Kreigsmarine. Their primary strength was the Uboat force. Certainly not the type of Navy you want if your plan is to establish complete sea control. Few capital ships and no carriers. No way to extend the protective blanket of air power over their ships far at sea. Another failure was the decision not to develop a long range bomber. The Germans had no answer for the British Lancaster and American Flying Fortress and Liberator bombers. They stuck to medium bombers until it was too late. The german advances in missles and rockets were astounding but they were not enough to stem the tide.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Germans could have "island hopped" over to America. England, Iceland, Greenland, Canada. Kind of what the US did in the PTO.

This would have required tactical air superiority like the Allies had in the channel in 1944 and in the Pacific in 44-45. Even if the Germans had long-range missiles, the US could have moved aircraft production out of range of them. The Germans didn't have any aircraft carriers so they would have had to work within the confines of land based airfields. This seems only a bit more practical than tunneling under the Atlantic.

Agreed. The Germans made several errors that ultimately made invasion of the British Isles and the US nearly impossible for them. Hitler didnt properly develop the Kreigsmarine. Their primary strength was the Uboat force. Certainly not the type of Navy you want if your plan is to establish complete sea control. Few capital ships and no carriers. No way to extend the protective blanket of air power over their ships far at sea. Another failure was the decision not to develop a long range bomber. The Germans had no answer for the British Lancaster and American Flying Fortress and Liberator bombers. They stuck to medium bombers until it was too late. The german advances in missles and rockets were astounding but they were not enough to stem the tide.

The problem with long range missiles like the V1 & V2 is that you have to have a secure platform.

The Germans worked and fired them in secret locations.... until they weren't secret anymore, whereupon the launch sites got obliterated. So, basically stupid.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Also, the Japs probably would have taken Hawaii next if we had stood down.

The US victory in the Pacific Theather was "by the skin of our teeth".

That's not really true. Once Midway occurred, it was a steady ### kicking as our carriers routed their fleet across the Pacific.

I as well thought it was a landslide victory until we moved to Japan (been here two years/return stateside summer of 2016) and learned about the ground battles (specifically the Battle of Okinawa). Amazing the amount of luck that can play into a victory.

It was a landslide. After Midway the Japanese were basically shifitng from being the aggressor to being on the defensive. They used the dedication of their soliders and sailors to their advantage and prolonged the war. It was inevitable after we broke the japanese cipher, blunted their advance on Australia at New Guinea and the Coral Sea and then routed them at Midway that the tides of war had shifted to favor the U.S. Yamamoto warned against this and 6 months after their thorough routing of the US Navy at Pearl Harbor, the point of the spear they used to strike at the U.S. with was broken. After that point US industrial might and ingenuity overwhelmed the beleaguered Japanese. Their only choice was to fight to the death in battles like Tarawa, Guam, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They had hoped that in doing this that the cost would be so high to the Americans that they would halt their advance. This was not to be. However Allied leaders were concerned about potential Japanese and Allied casualties in the proposed Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. Estimates were for casualities in excess of 1 million on the side of the Allies and a fear of self inflicted genocide on the part of the Japanese should Emperor Hirohito not command the population to surrender. The atomic bombings and internal strife in the upper echelons of the Japanese Military and Political wings hastened their surrender and ultimately saved countless lives.

Correct, an invasion of Japan was projected to cost over 1 million casualties.

The motto then was "Golden Gate in `48." We were looking at another 3 years just to take the big islands, including Honshu.

Also the island hopping was extremely bloody - islands the size of Manhattan, often smaller than the county you live in, resulted in death tolls of over 50,000 US and Japanese soldiers typically; battles like Guadalcanal, Rabaul, Saipan & Tinian, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa were all horrific, nothing "easy" about it.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Japanese bombed Los Angeles with fire balloon, and a Japanese sub shelled an oil platform off Santa Barbara. A German U-boat was sunk on the shores of Rhode Island. Several more U-boats landed on Canadian shores. Had a few events in Europe gone a different way early, no doubt the US would have had to repel an invasion.

I also see a fair amount of assumption that the USSR would have just swamped Gerrmany if the USA had stayed out. I'm not so sure.

If we're assuming that the USA stood down, with or without PH, then we might as well assume the Germans made the right calls at Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain. Consolidating early and not having to worry about a US led incursion from the west would have meant many extra divisions for Moscow and St. Petersburg especially, that story may have ended differently.

One major problem for Germany was they never created the amphibious capabilities that Japan had and that the USA eventually did. If they couldn't take Britain, how could they ever hope to take the east coast? They did conquer North Africa that's true, but then the east coast was far more fortified, industrialized, populated and protected than the west coast was at that time.

Now Germany, by defeating France, the Netherlands and the UK, would have gained the rights to colonies in and on the Caribbean, so they could have used them as a launching point to harass US shipping and maybe even an invasion of the Gulf Coast, which would have been a pretty soft underbelly back then. And if they had worked out a deal with Mexico, which had their own territorial grudges and ambitions dating back years, well then it would have been game on for sure.

 

[Sarnoff]

Also, the Japs probably would have taken Hawaii next if we had stood down.

The US victory in the Pacific Theather was "by the skin of our teeth".

That's not really true. Once Midway occurred, it was a steady ### kicking as our carriers routed their fleet across the Pacific.

I as well thought it was a landslide victory until we moved to Japan (been here two years/return stateside summer of 2016) and learned about the ground battles (specifically the Battle of Okinawa). Amazing the amount of luck that can play into a victory.

It was a landslide. After Midway the Japanese were basically shifitng from being the aggressor to being on the defensive. They used the dedication of their soliders and sailors to their advantage and prolonged the war. It was inevitable after we broke the japanese cipher, blunted their advance on Australia at New Guinea and the Coral Sea and then routed them at Midway that the tides of war had shifted to favor the U.S. Yamamoto warned against this and 6 months after their thorough routing of the US Navy at Pearl Harbor, the point of the spear they used to strike at the U.S. with was broken. After that point US industrial might and ingenuity overwhelmed the beleaguered Japanese. Their only choice was to fight to the death in battles like Tarawa, Guam, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They had hoped that in doing this that the cost would be so high to the Americans that they would halt their advance. This was not to be. However Allied leaders were concerned about potential Japanese and Allied casualties in the proposed Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. Estimates were for casualities in excess of 1 million on the side of the Allies and a fear of self inflicted genocide on the part of the Japanese should Emperor Hirohito not command the population to surrender. The atomic bombings and internal strife in the upper echelons of the Japanese Military and Political wings hastened their surrender and ultimately saved countless lives.

Correct, an invasion of Japan was projected to cost over 1 million casualties.

The motto then was "Golden Gate in `48." We were looking at another 3 years just to take the big islands, including Honshu.

Also the island hopping was extremely bloody - islands the size of Manhattan, often smaller than the county you live in, resulted in death tolls of over 50,000 US and Japanese soldiers typically; battles like Guadalcanal, Rabaul, Saipan & Tinian, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa were all horrific, nothing "easy" about it.

One of my favorite facts about the proposed invasion of Japan is that the casualties were expected to be so high, the Army produced an unprecedented number of Purple Heart awards. They were obviously prepared to go ahead with the invasion as very few people knew about the atom bomb and there was no guarantee Japan would surrender afterward.

The Purple Hearts were never needed, though, so the army kept them in storage. We're still giving them out today; all the wars since--Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, the current war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and all the military actions in between, since 1945--haven't depleted that supply of Purple Hearts meant for the invasion of Japan.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Also, the Japs probably would have taken Hawaii next if we had stood down.

The US victory in the Pacific Theather was "by the skin of our teeth".

That's not really true. Once Midway occurred, it was a steady ### kicking as our carriers routed their fleet across the Pacific.

I as well thought it was a landslide victory until we moved to Japan (been here two years/return stateside summer of 2016) and learned about the ground battles (specifically the Battle of Okinawa). Amazing the amount of luck that can play into a victory.

It was a landslide. After Midway the Japanese were basically shifitng from being the aggressor to being on the defensive. They used the dedication of their soliders and sailors to their advantage and prolonged the war. It was inevitable after we broke the japanese cipher, blunted their advance on Australia at New Guinea and the Coral Sea and then routed them at Midway that the tides of war had shifted to favor the U.S. Yamamoto warned against this and 6 months after their thorough routing of the US Navy at Pearl Harbor, the point of the spear they used to strike at the U.S. with was broken. After that point US industrial might and ingenuity overwhelmed the beleaguered Japanese. Their only choice was to fight to the death in battles like Tarawa, Guam, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They had hoped that in doing this that the cost would be so high to the Americans that they would halt their advance. This was not to be. However Allied leaders were concerned about potential Japanese and Allied casualties in the proposed Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. Estimates were for casualities in excess of 1 million on the side of the Allies and a fear of self inflicted genocide on the part of the Japanese should Emperor Hirohito not command the population to surrender. The atomic bombings and internal strife in the upper echelons of the Japanese Military and Political wings hastened their surrender and ultimately saved countless lives.

Correct, an invasion of Japan was projected to cost over 1 million casualties.

The motto then was "Golden Gate in `48." We were looking at another 3 years just to take the big islands, including Honshu.

Also the island hopping was extremely bloody - islands the size of Manhattan, often smaller than the county you live in, resulted in death tolls of over 50,000 US and Japanese soldiers typically; battles like Guadalcanal, Rabaul, Saipan & Tinian, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa were all horrific, nothing "easy" about it.

One of my favorite facts about the proposed invasion of Japan is that the casualties were expected to be so high, the Army produced an unprecedented number of Purple Heart awards. They were obviously prepared to go ahead with the invasion as very few people knew about the atom bomb and there was no guarantee Japan would surrender afterward.

The Purple Hearts were never needed, though, so the army kept them in storage. We're still giving them out today; all the wars since--Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, the current war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and all the military actions in between, since 1945--haven't depleted that supply of Purple Hearts meant for the invasion of Japan.

Wow, incredible.

 

[Eephus]

The Germans could have "island hopped" over to America. England, Iceland, Greenland, Canada. Kind of what the US did in the PTO.

This would have required tactical air superiority like the Allies had in the channel in 1944 and in the Pacific in 44-45. Even if the Germans had long-range missiles, the US could have moved aircraft production out of range of them. The Germans didn't have any aircraft carriers so they would have had to work within the confines of land based airfields. This seems only a bit more practical than tunneling under the Atlantic.

Agreed. The Germans made several errors that ultimately made invasion of the British Isles and the US nearly impossible for them. Hitler didnt properly develop the Kreigsmarine. Their primary strength was the Uboat force. Certainly not the type of Navy you want if your plan is to establish complete sea control. Few capital ships and no carriers. No way to extend the protective blanket of air power over their ships far at sea. Another failure was the decision not to develop a long range bomber. The Germans had no answer for the British Lancaster and American Flying Fortress and Liberator bombers. They stuck to medium bombers until it was too late. The german advances in missles and rockets were astounding but they were not enough to stem the tide.

German naval strategy was dictated in large part by European geography. Their surface fleet in WWI remained pinned down in port after Jutland. Advances in radar and airborne recon made their task much harder by 1940. Carriers of the day would have been sitting ducks in the confined spaces of the North Sea. I don't see how the Germans would have been able to assemble a carrier strike force in open waters unless a lot of things went their way. They would have had to decisively win the Battle of Britain, force capitulation or Vichy-ization of the British (this probably would have required some sort of Operation Sea Lion), design and build a carrier fleet, solve the logistical problem of the North Atlantic and figure out how to establish and break out of a bridgehead in the USA. It would have taken time and resources. By the time they accomplished all that, the Americans would have been able to perfect their time machine and go back to kill Hitler's mom.

 

[Thunderlips]

The Japanese bombed Los Angeles with fire balloon, and a Japanese sub shelled an oil platform off Santa Barbara. A German U-boat was sunk on the shores of Rhode Island. Several more U-boats landed on Canadian shores. Had a few events in Europe gone a different way early, no doubt the US would have had to repel an invasion.

I also see a fair amount of assumption that the USSR would have just swamped Gerrmany if the USA had stayed out. I'm not so sure.

If we're assuming that the USA stood down, with or without PH, then we might as well assume the Germans made the right calls at Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain. Consolidating early and not having to worry about a US led incursion from the west would have meant many extra divisions for Moscow and St. Petersburg especially, that story may have ended differently.

One major problem for Germany was they never created the amphibious capabilities that Japan had and that the USA eventually did. If they couldn't take Britain, how could they ever hope to take the east coast? They did conquer North Africa that's true, but then the east coast was far more fortified, industrialized, populated and protected than the west coast was at that time.

Now Germany, by defeating France, the Netherlands and the UK, would have gained the rights to colonies in and on the Caribbean, so they could have used them as a launching point to harass US shipping and maybe even an invasion of the Gulf Coast, which would have been a pretty soft underbelly back then. And if they had worked out a deal with Mexico, which had their own territorial grudges and ambitions dating back years, well then it would have been game on for sure.

I think that'd you be more likely to see a political movment in this country grow that was more sympathetic to an alliance with Hitler.....particularly if PH happens and Germany doesn't make the mistake of declaring war.

 

[Sarnoff]

Also, the Japs probably would have taken Hawaii next if we had stood down.

The US victory in the Pacific Theather was "by the skin of our teeth".

That's not really true. Once Midway occurred, it was a steady ### kicking as our carriers routed their fleet across the Pacific.

I as well thought it was a landslide victory until we moved to Japan (been here two years/return stateside summer of 2016) and learned about the ground battles (specifically the Battle of Okinawa). Amazing the amount of luck that can play into a victory.

It was a landslide. After Midway the Japanese were basically shifitng from being the aggressor to being on the defensive. They used the dedication of their soliders and sailors to their advantage and prolonged the war. It was inevitable after we broke the japanese cipher, blunted their advance on Australia at New Guinea and the Coral Sea and then routed them at Midway that the tides of war had shifted to favor the U.S. Yamamoto warned against this and 6 months after their thorough routing of the US Navy at Pearl Harbor, the point of the spear they used to strike at the U.S. with was broken. After that point US industrial might and ingenuity overwhelmed the beleaguered Japanese. Their only choice was to fight to the death in battles like Tarawa, Guam, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They had hoped that in doing this that the cost would be so high to the Americans that they would halt their advance. This was not to be. However Allied leaders were concerned about potential Japanese and Allied casualties in the proposed Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. Estimates were for casualities in excess of 1 million on the side of the Allies and a fear of self inflicted genocide on the part of the Japanese should Emperor Hirohito not command the population to surrender. The atomic bombings and internal strife in the upper echelons of the Japanese Military and Political wings hastened their surrender and ultimately saved countless lives.

Correct, an invasion of Japan was projected to cost over 1 million casualties.

The motto then was "Golden Gate in `48." We were looking at another 3 years just to take the big islands, including Honshu.

Also the island hopping was extremely bloody - islands the size of Manhattan, often smaller than the county you live in, resulted in death tolls of over 50,000 US and Japanese soldiers typically; battles like Guadalcanal, Rabaul, Saipan & Tinian, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa were all horrific, nothing "easy" about it.

One of my favorite facts about the proposed invasion of Japan is that the casualties were expected to be so high, the Army produced an unprecedented number of Purple Heart awards. They were obviously prepared to go ahead with the invasion as very few people knew about the atom bomb and there was no guarantee Japan would surrender afterward.

The Purple Hearts were never needed, though, so the army kept them in storage. We're still giving them out today; all the wars since--Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, the current war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and all the military actions in between, since 1945--haven't depleted that supply of Purple Hearts meant for the invasion of Japan.

Wow, incredible.

In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock. There were so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan were able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to soldiers wounded on the field.

 

[Eephus]

Also, the Japs probably would have taken Hawaii next if we had stood down.

The US victory in the Pacific Theather was "by the skin of our teeth".

That's not really true. Once Midway occurred, it was a steady ### kicking as our carriers routed their fleet across the Pacific.

I as well thought it was a landslide victory until we moved to Japan (been here two years/return stateside summer of 2016) and learned about the ground battles (specifically the Battle of Okinawa). Amazing the amount of luck that can play into a victory.

It was a landslide. After Midway the Japanese were basically shifitng from being the aggressor to being on the defensive. They used the dedication of their soliders and sailors to their advantage and prolonged the war. It was inevitable after we broke the japanese cipher, blunted their advance on Australia at New Guinea and the Coral Sea and then routed them at Midway that the tides of war had shifted to favor the U.S. Yamamoto warned against this and 6 months after their thorough routing of the US Navy at Pearl Harbor, the point of the spear they used to strike at the U.S. with was broken. After that point US industrial might and ingenuity overwhelmed the beleaguered Japanese. Their only choice was to fight to the death in battles like Tarawa, Guam, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They had hoped that in doing this that the cost would be so high to the Americans that they would halt their advance. This was not to be. However Allied leaders were concerned about potential Japanese and Allied casualties in the proposed Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. Estimates were for casualities in excess of 1 million on the side of the Allies and a fear of self inflicted genocide on the part of the Japanese should Emperor Hirohito not command the population to surrender. The atomic bombings and internal strife in the upper echelons of the Japanese Military and Political wings hastened their surrender and ultimately saved countless lives.

Correct, an invasion of Japan was projected to cost over 1 million casualties.

The motto then was "Golden Gate in `48." We were looking at another 3 years just to take the big islands, including Honshu.

Also the island hopping was extremely bloody - islands the size of Manhattan, often smaller than the county you live in, resulted in death tolls of over 50,000 US and Japanese soldiers typically; battles like Guadalcanal, Rabaul, Saipan & Tinian, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa were all horrific, nothing "easy" about it.

One of my favorite facts about the proposed invasion of Japan is that the casualties were expected to be so high, the Army produced an unprecedented number of Purple Heart awards. They were obviously prepared to go ahead with the invasion as very few people knew about the atom bomb and there was no guarantee Japan would surrender afterward.

The Purple Hearts were never needed, though, so the army kept them in storage. We're still giving them out today; all the wars since--Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, the current war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and all the military actions in between, since 1945--haven't depleted that supply of Purple Hearts meant for the invasion of Japan.

Wow, incredible.

In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock. There were so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan were able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to soldiers wounded on the field.

The Japanese plans for defense of Kyushu are pretty frightening for both the attackers and defenders.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Japanese bombed Los Angeles with fire balloon, and a Japanese sub shelled an oil platform off Santa Barbara. A German U-boat was sunk on the shores of Rhode Island. Several more U-boats landed on Canadian shores. Had a few events in Europe gone a different way early, no doubt the US would have had to repel an invasion.

I also see a fair amount of assumption that the USSR would have just swamped Gerrmany if the USA had stayed out. I'm not so sure.

If we're assuming that the USA stood down, with or without PH, then we might as well assume the Germans made the right calls at Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain. Consolidating early and not having to worry about a US led incursion from the west would have meant many extra divisions for Moscow and St. Petersburg especially, that story may have ended differently.

One major problem for Germany was they never created the amphibious capabilities that Japan had and that the USA eventually did. If they couldn't take Britain, how could they ever hope to take the east coast? They did conquer North Africa that's true, but then the east coast was far more fortified, industrialized, populated and protected than the west coast was at that time.

Now Germany, by defeating France, the Netherlands and the UK, would have gained the rights to colonies in and on the Caribbean, so they could have used them as a launching point to harass US shipping and maybe even an invasion of the Gulf Coast, which would have been a pretty soft underbelly back then. And if they had worked out a deal with Mexico, which had their own territorial grudges and ambitions dating back years, well then it would have been game on for sure.

I think that'd you be more likely to see a political movment in this country grow that was more sympathetic to an alliance with Hitler.....particularly if PH happens and Germany doesn't make the mistake of declaring war.

I agree, here and in England.

 

[Tom Servo]

The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.

And yet upthread I proved you wrong.

what post?

This one.

In the Battle of the Aleutian Islands (June 1942-August 1943) during World War II (1939-45), U.S. troops fought to remove Japanese garrisons established on a pair of U.S.-owned islands west of Alaska. In June 1942, Japan had seized the remote, sparsely inhabited islands of Attu and Kiska, in the Aleutian Islands. It was the only U.S. soil Japan would claim during the war in the Pacific. The maneuver was possibly designed to divert U.S. forces during Japan's attack on Midway Island (June 4-7, 1942) in the central Pacific. It’s also possible the Japanese believed holding the two islands could prevent the U.S. from invading Japan via the Aleutians. Either way, the Japanese occupation was a blow to American morale. In May 1943, U.S. troops retook Attu and three months later reclaimed Kiska, and in the process gained experience that helped them prepare for the long "island-hopping" battles to come as World War II raged across the Pacific Ocean.

Sounds like we were invaded by the Japanese...

um, I dont think that even warrants a response

Because I showed you that an invasion was not only possible, but actually happened?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.

And yet upthread I proved you wrong.

what post?

This one.

In the Battle of the Aleutian Islands (June 1942-August 1943) during World War II (1939-45), U.S. troops fought to remove Japanese garrisons established on a pair of U.S.-owned islands west of Alaska. In June 1942, Japan had seized the remote, sparsely inhabited islands of Attu and Kiska, in the Aleutian Islands. It was the only U.S. soil Japan would claim during the war in the Pacific. The maneuver was possibly designed to divert U.S. forces during Japan's attack on Midway Island (June 4-7, 1942) in the central Pacific. It’s also possible the Japanese believed holding the two islands could prevent the U.S. from invading Japan via the Aleutians. Either way, the Japanese occupation was a blow to American morale. In May 1943, U.S. troops retook Attu and three months later reclaimed Kiska, and in the process gained experience that helped them prepare for the long "island-hopping" battles to come as World War II raged across the Pacific Ocean.

Sounds like we were invaded by the Japanese...

um, I dont think that even warrants a response

PantherClub, why don't you just say 'let's assume an invasion never happened' instead of raising the very interesting factual question of whether it could have happened. It could have, and we know that because at the time the US military thought it could have and did what it could to prepare for it.

One way it could have not happened is if the USA had simply made concessions to Germany and Japan to buy peace. If Germany and Japan didn't really have invasion capability, as you claim, they would have developed it just to get those concessions.

 

[matttyl]

So, if the US military was expecting ~1M American lives to be lost if they invaded Japan (which was inevitable), and possibly the same number or more Japanese.....and since the A bombs killed 150-250k Japanese, can you claim that the A bombs actually saved millions of lives? Interesting thought.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So, if the US military was expecting ~1M American lives to be lost if they invaded Japan (which was inevitable), and possibly the same number or more Japanese.....and since the A bombs killed 150-250k Japanese, can you claim that the A bombs actually saved millions of lives? Interesting thought.

Absolutely, but if we don't get into the war then no Manhattan Project.

No Manhattan Project, then Germany and/or Japan could have developed it, they could have been used on us, hundreds of thousands to millions of American lives could have been lost that way, and an invasion might have been accomplished almost unopposed.

 

[Mad Cow]

The A-Bomb was absolutely believed to have save countless lives. It was an act of mercy is many ways, though it is not readily apparent.

 

[Thunderlips]

How does Japan invade (and successfully hold) the West Coast of the U.S. in the 1940s? I don't see how there's a logistically possible way for that to happen. Hell....Hawaii is 2,000+ miles from the West Coast....even if Hawaii were invaded and conquered (in itself an almost logistical impossibility) ain't like there's going to be the Japanese version of Higgins Boats steaming from Hawaii with thousands of troops.

 

[timschochet]

Saints In Dome, I'm impressed that you know about Homer Lea. But he was wrong. There was NO chance of Japan invading the west coast. No line of supply, no command of the air, couldn't be done. Hawaii also was not going to be invaded. Plans WERE drawn up for that, but discarded rapidly, for the same reason- just too damn far from the farthest Japanese point of control. No way to build up enough troops and get them there. All of Japan's amazing conquests in early 1942- the Philippines, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc- they were close enough for Japan to get troops over there. Line of supply is always the key element that everyone seems to ignore.

Even if Japan control of Hawaii, there would still be no chance of invading the west coast, because it was still too far. Yes, our government was concerned about a west coast invasion, but it was largely paranoia.

 

[Copeman]

Co-MVP's to our way of life:

Pacific Ocean

Atlantic Ocean

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

How does Japan invade (and successfully hold) the West Coast of the U.S. in the 1940s? I don't see how there's a logistically possible way for that to happen. Hell....Hawaii is 2,000+ miles from the West Coast....even if Hawaii were invaded and conquered (in itself an almost logistical impossibility) ain't like there's going to be the Japanese version of Higgins Boats steaming from Hawaii with thousands of troops.

It would not have had to hold the whole west coast, Japan invaded China and held certain parts of the south coast, key cities like Shanghai, and further up north in Manchuria. It could have done enough to neutalize the US completely on the Pacific rim, which after all is why it went after Pearl.

Also keep in mind the assumption the US has stood down, this could be years later, like 1950, or 1955, or even 1960. Is the USA even rich enough to built the interstate system if it doesn't win WW2?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints In Dome, I'm impressed that you know about Homer Lea. But he was wrong. There was NO chance of Japan invading the west coast. No line of supply, no command of the air, couldn't be done. Hawaii also was not going to be invaded. Plans WERE drawn up for that, but discarded rapidly, for the same reason- just too damn far from the farthest Japanese point of control. No way to build up enough troops and get them there. All of Japan's amazing conquests in early 1942- the Philippines, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc- they were close enough for Japan to get troops over there. Line of supply is always the key element that everyone seems to ignore.

Even if Japan control of Hawaii, there would still be no chance of invading the west coast, because it was still too far. Yes, our government was concerned about a west coast invasion, but it was largely paranoia.

Ok fair enough, but I think it's always worthwhile to examine all assumptions.

At a mimium if the US stays out the war, and Japan consolidates its power, then Japan could have obtained nuclear weapons after a while (they had their own program after all) and at that point they pretty much could have done what they wanted.

If the question is what were the possible outcomes, well that's one.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

So, if the US military was expecting ~1M American lives to be lost if they invaded Japan (which was inevitable), and possibly the same number or more Japanese.....and since the A bombs killed 150-250k Japanese, can you claim that the A bombs actually saved millions of lives? Interesting thought.

It's a fairly common argument made for the use of the bomb in Japan. And it absolutely saved American soldiers lives. I don't think that can be disputed. So if you want your country to make sure it ends the war with the most living soldiers, we did that. It absolutely also saved Japanese soldier lives. If you want to look at that as mercy, you can. It probably didn't save Japanese civilian lives, although that is where you look at the potential plans for what the Japanese probably would have done and you have to guesstimate that yes, it probably did save their lives too.

It was a horrific weapon to use, a curse against humanity that we could have and still may destroy ourselves with, but in that moment it did probably save a ton of lives. That's how scary the pacific theatre would have been.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Saints In Dome, I'm impressed that you know about Homer Lea. But he was wrong. There was NO chance of Japan invading the west coast. No line of supply, no command of the air, couldn't be done. Hawaii also was not going to be invaded. Plans WERE drawn up for that, but discarded rapidly, for the same reason- just too damn far from the farthest Japanese point of control. No way to build up enough troops and get them there. All of Japan's amazing conquests in early 1942- the Philippines, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc- they were close enough for Japan to get troops over there. Line of supply is always the key element that everyone seems to ignore.

Even if Japan control of Hawaii, there would still be no chance of invading the west coast, because it was still too far. Yes, our government was concerned about a west coast invasion, but it was largely paranoia.

But you assume that in the argument where we are fighting the war. The original question was what happens if we don't. Without a true counterbalance in the Pacific Japan easily grows their sphere of power in the pacific and the islands there. They also use more resources building war machines instead of using them to kill us in naval battles. The same argument applies for me with Germany and our east coast. If we don't fight the war, I really think Germany most likely conqueres Europe. With all of Europe under their control, they have less loss of military equipment and time, more manufacturing power, and with the Nazi you know a ton more slave labor. I really don't see what would stop Hitler from trying to travel over and do it.

Is it successful is a whole other story.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

We invaded Western North Africa with troops sent directly from the US so it's not like it was impossible to invade across an ocean. Obviously that was somewhat of a soft target.

 

[Spanky267]

Saints In Dome, I'm impressed that you know about Homer Lea. But he was wrong. There was NO chance of Japan invading the west coast. No line of supply, no command of the air, couldn't be done. Hawaii also was not going to be invaded. Plans WERE drawn up for that, but discarded rapidly, for the same reason- just too damn far from the farthest Japanese point of control. No way to build up enough troops and get them there. All of Japan's amazing conquests in early 1942- the Philippines, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc- they were close enough for Japan to get troops over there. Line of supply is always the key element that everyone seems to ignore.

Even if Japan control of Hawaii, there would still be no chance of invading the west coast, because it was still too far. Yes, our government was concerned about a west coast invasion, but it was largely paranoia.

I agree for the most part. Japan's primary goal was to crush American resistance to the expansion of their defensive perimeter. The Japanese had no desire to take and hold large swaths of the United States or even Hawaii. To your point the supply train needed to support such operations would far outstrip Japanese capabilities and would weaken their control in other parts of their Empire. What they wanted to do was bloody the Americans who they beleived had no stomach for another war. They would expel America from the Phillipines and Wake Island. they would cut off Australia and would destory the U.S. Pacific Fleet. This they believed would force the U.S. to the bargaining table as Hawaii would be vulnerable to harassment from the Japanese Navy, in theory. The next closest major Naval forces would be in San Fransisco or San Diego. This would also leave the Panama Canal somewhat vulnerable.

A full on invasion was highly unlikely but the spectre of invasion is what the Japanese hoped to foster in the minds of Americans had the attack on Pearl Harbor been more crippling to the Pacific Fleet. As it was the U.S. Navy was able to reorganize its battle strategies to make the carrier the queen of the fleet. As such the U.S. Navy was able to blunt the Japanese advances with a small carrier force while here battlewagons were rebuilt and ship building was dramatically increased.

 

[Mad Cow]

When you read accounts of Marines in the Pacific, you really gain an idea that invading Japan would have gone poorly for both parties. Civilians would likely have been used in countless suicidal missions.

FWIW I am reading With the Old Breed right now, great book on the Pacific Marine. Another is Helmet for my Pillow.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

We invaded Western North Africa with troops sent directly from the US so it's not like it was impossible to invade across an ocean. Obviously that was somewhat of a soft target.

Which leads to the next question of how soft or hard a target is the east coast in a "time" when we stayed out of the war.

Remember, it was the war that got our economy pumping again, but before the military we've come to know from 1943ish on to this day, the military of our country before that wasn't exaclty a world power. And we were in the midst of the chaos of the great depression. So, what the assumption tells us is that we don't fight the war and leave Europe to itself. Well, if we do that, Germany is never going to trade with us without significantly harming our economy even more or at least making it grow slower than it could. So we have no war to rebuild the economy and no western world to trade with.

Meanwhile, Germany and to some extent Russia basically consume Europe and most of Asia, with Japan consuming the South Pacific. Do you assume that Italy becomes the fifedom that takes over the mediterranean and with it north africa? You could. So there is no other economy out there for us to work with at all except the Axis powers. And we are suffering the effects of the Great Depression still and they are taking over the world.

Are we a soft target then? I'd say yes. Why not? What industrial power do we have to build a military to defend ourselves from the potential continual assault? Does Japan or Germany use the bomb on us? I don't know how you answer no to that. I would surmise that if we didn't enter the war at all, this continent is basically still a colonial tract of land being fought over by the powers of the time (and none of them were our friends).

 

[Eephus]

We invaded Western North Africa with troops sent directly from the US so it's not like it was impossible to invade across an ocean. Obviously that was somewhat of a soft target.

The majority of forces in Operation Torch were staged in Britain before shipping out to Tunisia

 

[Doubtingthomas]

I don't think people realize the tremendous economic power that America represented. In 1938 America represented nearly 20% of the world GDP. Adjusted to 1990 dollars America's GDP was 800 billion. Japan's was 169 billion. Germany was 351 billion. By 1940 America's GDP was 943 billion, Japan 192, Germany 384. Crucial year of 1942 America 1235 billion, Japan 197, Germany plus conquests and Italy roughly 750ish. BY 1944 America was at 1499 billion. Germany and Japan essentially the same as in 1942. Any notion that Japan could ever hope to challenge America for Pacific dominance in the long term, let alone invade is flat out delusional. They could never match the material America could produce. LEt alone population differences. Countries don't go to war with countries that have 4 to 5 times their economy and nearly twice their population and expect to win. Nearly the definition of unpossible.

In essence America was a complete other continent that was relatively heavily industrialized and with access to all the nessecary natural resources to carry on a war in two oceans indefinitely. It seems unlikely that an America that has seen Germany or Russia take over Europe and facing Japan in the Pacific would retain its level of pre war armanment. Rearming itself would boom the economy much as it did in Germany prewar and as the numbers indicate America was already in recovery economically by 1940. The possibility of America being invaded and defeated by even a coalition of Germany and Japan exceedingly remote.

 

[tdoss]

An invasion to any coast in the USofA is completely and utterly impossible for a multitude of reasons. Everyone with a brain knew that.

Do you realize how few troops we had on the west coast and how long it would have taken us to get what troops we did have out there?

Leas second book, The Valor of Ignorance, examined American defense and in part prophesied a war between America and Japan. It created controversy and instantly elevated his reputation as a credible geo-political spokesman. Two retired U.S. Army generals, including former Army Chief-of-Staff Adna R. Chaffee, wrote glowing introductions to the book, which also contained a striking frontispiece photograph of Lea in his lieutenant generals uniform. The book contained maps of a hypothetical Japanese invasion of California and the Philippines and was very popular among American military officers, particularly those stationed in the Philippines over the next generation. General Douglas MacArthur and his staff, for example, paid close attention to the book in planning the defense of the Philippines. The Japanese military also paid close attention to the book, which was translated into Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Lea

Japan had been in war in Asia since around 1931 - basically if they had consolidated Phillipines and gotten a hold of the oil deposits there and around China they could have waited a few years more and taken us out. One main problem was we kept our carriers.

I always find it interesting how most people, articles and films will focus on Hitler as being just out of this world insane and bloodthirsty. The name Hitler is elevated to some unreal status...but not a lot has been said about Japan ' s activities. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and maybe 20 million Russians and others.

Hirohito and Japan killed something like 30 million...mostly Chinese and did some unreal things to prisoners of war. Germany and Hitler really weren't the only or possibly not even the worst evil that was out there on the playing field.

 

[timschochet]

An invasion to any coast in the USofA is completely and utterly impossible for a multitude of reasons. Everyone with a brain knew that.

Do you realize how few troops we had on the west coast and how long it would have taken us to get what troops we did have out there?

Leas second book, The Valor of Ignorance, examined American defense and in part prophesied a war between America and Japan. It created controversy and instantly elevated his reputation as a credible geo-political spokesman. Two retired U.S. Army generals, including former Army Chief-of-Staff Adna R. Chaffee, wrote glowing introductions to the book, which also contained a striking frontispiece photograph of Lea in his lieutenant generals uniform. The book contained maps of a hypothetical Japanese invasion of California and the Philippines and was very popular among American military officers, particularly those stationed in the Philippines over the next generation. General Douglas MacArthur and his staff, for example, paid close attention to the book in planning the defense of the Philippines. The Japanese military also paid close attention to the book, which was translated into Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Lea

Japan had been in war in Asia since around 1931 - basically if they had consolidated Phillipines and gotten a hold of the oil deposits there and around China they could have waited a few years more and taken us out. One main problem was we kept our carriers.

I always find it interesting how most people, articles and films will focus on Hitler as being just out of this world insane and bloodthirsty. The name Hitler is elevated to some unreal status...but not a lot has been said about Japan ' s activities. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and maybe 20 million Russians and others.Hirohito and Japan killed something like 30 million...mostly Chinese and did some unreal things to prisoners of war. Germany and Hitler really weren't the only or possibly not even the worst evil that was out there on the playing field.

The Japanese committed terrible crimes, but not sure where you got that 30 million figure from. Also Hirohito does not have anywhere near the personal responsibility of Hitler.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

An invasion to any coast in the USofA is completely and utterly impossible for a multitude of reasons. Everyone with a brain knew that.

Do you realize how few troops we had on the west coast and how long it would have taken us to get what troops we did have out there?

Leas second book, The Valor of Ignorance, examined American defense and in part prophesied a war between America and Japan. It created controversy and instantly elevated his reputation as a credible geo-political spokesman. Two retired U.S. Army generals, including former Army Chief-of-Staff Adna R. Chaffee, wrote glowing introductions to the book, which also contained a striking frontispiece photograph of Lea in his lieutenant generals uniform. The book contained maps of a hypothetical Japanese invasion of California and the Philippines and was very popular among American military officers, particularly those stationed in the Philippines over the next generation. General Douglas MacArthur and his staff, for example, paid close attention to the book in planning the defense of the Philippines. The Japanese military also paid close attention to the book, which was translated into Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Lea

Japan had been in war in Asia since around 1931 - basically if they had consolidated Phillipines and gotten a hold of the oil deposits there and around China they could have waited a few years more and taken us out. One main problem was we kept our carriers.

I always find it interesting how most people, articles and films will focus on Hitler as being just out of this world insane and bloodthirsty. The name Hitler is elevated to some unreal status...but not a lot has been said about Japan ' s activities. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and maybe 20 million Russians and others.Hirohito and Japan killed something like 30 million...mostly Chinese and did some unreal things to prisoners of war. Germany and Hitler really weren't the only or possibly not even the worst evil that was out there on the playing field.

The Japanese committed terrible crimes, but not sure where you got that 30 million figure from. Also Hirohito does not have anywhere near the personal responsibility of Hitler.

Well they were at war 1931-1945, that's an awfully long time. What was the death toll then?

 

[timschochet]

An invasion to any coast in the USofA is completely and utterly impossible for a multitude of reasons. Everyone with a brain knew that.

Do you realize how few troops we had on the west coast and how long it would have taken us to get what troops we did have out there?

Leas second book, The Valor of Ignorance, examined American defense and in part prophesied a war between America and Japan. It created controversy and instantly elevated his reputation as a credible geo-political spokesman. Two retired U.S. Army generals, including former Army Chief-of-Staff Adna R. Chaffee, wrote glowing introductions to the book, which also contained a striking frontispiece photograph of Lea in his lieutenant generals uniform. The book contained maps of a hypothetical Japanese invasion of California and the Philippines and was very popular among American military officers, particularly those stationed in the Philippines over the next generation. General Douglas MacArthur and his staff, for example, paid close attention to the book in planning the defense of the Philippines. The Japanese military also paid close attention to the book, which was translated into Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Lea

Japan had been in war in Asia since around 1931 - basically if they had consolidated Phillipines and gotten a hold of the oil deposits there and around China they could have waited a few years more and taken us out. One main problem was we kept our carriers.

I always find it interesting how most people, articles and films will focus on Hitler as being just out of this world insane and bloodthirsty. The name Hitler is elevated to some unreal status...but not a lot has been said about Japan ' s activities. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and maybe 20 million Russians and others.Hirohito and Japan killed something like 30 million...mostly Chinese and did some unreal things to prisoners of war. Germany and Hitler really weren't the only or possibly not even the worst evil that was out there on the playing field.

The Japanese committed terrible crimes, but not sure where you got that 30 million figure from. Also Hirohito does not have anywhere near the personal responsibility of Hitler.

Well they were at war 1931-1945, that's an awfully long time. What was the death toll then?

I think it's somewhere between 3 and 10 million. That's no small number! But it's not 30.

 

[Doubtingthomas]

To give some idea of the daunting power of American industry, consider the liberty ships. A cargo vessel designed to carry all the other stuff America built around the world. A fleet of 2751 ships were built between early 1941 and 1945. A rate of 1.9 ships PER day. I'm talking about a 14,000 ton vessel capable of hauling 9000 tons of cargo. Requirement number one for world power projection and a rate of production mind boggling to the Japanese and Germans.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

To give some idea of the daunting power of American industry, consider the liberty ships. A cargo vessel designed to carry all the other stuff America built around the world. A fleet of 2751 ships were built between early 1941 and 1945. A rate of 1.9 ships PER day. I'm talking about a 14,000 ton vessel capable of hauling 9000 tons of cargo. Requirement number one for world power projection and a rate of production mind boggling to the Japanese and Germans.

True, but the assumption is we would have stood down.

What would we be saying now about the American economy and military might if we had never ramped up our liberty ship production because we never entered the war?

The USA never would have been a superpower.

 

[Doubtingthomas]

In the same time period as the liberty ships are being built America builds 10 battleships, 27 aircraft carriers, 110 (!) Escort carriers, 211 submarines, and 907 various cruisers, destroyers, and escort vessels. Oh and 100,000 armored vehicles and tanks.

 

[Doubtingthomas]

To give some idea of the daunting power of American industry, consider the liberty ships. A cargo vessel designed to carry all the other stuff America built around the world. A fleet of 2751 ships were built between early 1941 and 1945. A rate of 1.9 ships PER day. I'm talking about a 14,000 ton vessel capable of hauling 9000 tons of cargo. Requirement number one for world power projection and a rate of production mind boggling to the Japanese and Germans.

True, but the assumption is we would have stood down.

What would we be saying now about the American economy and military might if we had never ramped up our liberty ship production because we never entered the war?

The USA never would have been a superpower.

America only needed an enemy to build up its defenses. I can't conceive of an America which watched Germany conquer Europe and Japan conquer southeast Asia not arming itself. And those production numbers give you an idea of what Germany and Japan would have had to do, to do essentially the reverse of what America did, project overwhelming power over an ocean.

 

[pantherclub]

Germany and/or Japan could never overcome the challenges of either ocean in order to invade. There isnt a staging area on either side. Add in the lack of air support and its impossible.