Why would anyone need an assault rifle?

[3C's]

Just now, timschochet said:

You're implying that had assault rifles been banned Orlando would not have happened. I wish I could be convinced of this but I'm not. 

No I'm not. I'm implying if he hadn't had an AR-15 there wouldn't be 100+ families affected right now.

[3C's]

3 minutes ago, Christo said:

Try harder.

I'm good.

[Apple Jack]

2 minutes ago, The Ref said:

This one is being overlooked.

For good reason.

[shader]

3 hours ago, timschochet said:

I go back and forth on this. 

But here's my main question: if we do ban them, what about all the ones already out there? 

Didn't the killer just buy one in the last few weeks?

Ban them now and Impose unbelievably harsh penalties on selling them second-hand or even giving them away.  

Not perfect but it's a start.

[3C's]

3 minutes ago, Warsteinner said:

Yeah. The Muslim in Orlando did 2 things. 1. He went into a gun free zone. 2 he chose a demographic that thinks guns are scary. Has anyone of those people had a carry license and gun or had the workers in SB been armed these massacres would not have been as bad. 

There was an armed uniformed off duty officer working there.

[Philo]

3 minutes ago, 3C's said:

No I'm not. I'm implying if he hadn't had an AR-15 there wouldn't be 100+ families affected right now.

No gun control is going to keep an AR15 out of the hands of a Dept of Homeland Security contractor with a valid security guard license. 

[Redwes25]

5 minutes ago, Warsteinner said:

Yeah. The Muslim in Orlando did 2 things. 1. He went into a gun free zone. 2 he chose a demographic that thinks guns are scary. Has anyone of those people had a carry license and gun or had the workers in SB been armed these massacres would not have been as bad. 

There was an armed guard hired by the club who exchanged fire with him. Learn what happened at least. 

[Warsteinner]

1 minute ago, Redwes25 said:

There was an armed guard hired by the club who exchanged fire with him. Learn what happened at least. 

Apparently did his job well. 

[3C's]

Just now, Philo said:

No gun control is going to keep an AR15 out of the hands of a Dept of Homeland Security contractor with a valid security guard license. 

Especially one who said he was part of Hezbollah, right?!

Other than that, being employed by G4 should in no way grant anyone the right to an AR15 any more than any other private citizen. If you've ever seen these guys you would know they're the last ones who should be trusted with high powered rifles.

[Ministry of Pain]

29 minutes ago, Warsteinner said:

I probably watch too many shows on tv that deal with government collapse and #### hitting the fan. That said I have food and water reserves for 2 years and own over 70 firearms. I have a bushmaster like this http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/11401/90289/bushmaster-xm15-e2s-5.56mm-patrolmans-carbine and if things did fall apart I pity anyone trying to loot my residence. 

I share your concern for the government collapse. maybe we can discuss it more. I don't get much traction on this from folks in here due to most having cushy well paying jobs and in general have a decent life compared to 75% of the country. I'm not putting folks down but other than headline talking points not much real discussion happens on when our government fails us or why this is the last country to have most of their citizens armed. The rest of the world that is in positions of power want desperately for that to end and it's not because they feel bad for innocent Americans being killed. We need to think long and hard about what we want to give up in terms of rights and what the impact might be 40-50 years and maybe even 100 years down the line.

Maybe just a handgun and shotgun in peoples' hand is enough but we have local police now geared up with army style weapons and such. Those police some love will turn against citizens under order of government officials, maybe some would stand down but many will not. This country has more riches than most of the world put together, it seems like we need to take that into account. Terrorist prey on many countries in Africa where the locals have little more than a machete at best to defend vs guns from Boko Hoko or whatever their name is. 

I understand the outcry over guns but a mentally unstable person did this act. Granny Smith didn't haul an AR-15 into the SS office and start unloading, this was a mentally disturbed person, his religion is of little importance to me or IMO. Anyone can feel different, I respect and understand why folks would be opposed to what I am saying and that makes it more difficult to have rational discussion without being fired on in here. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Ministry of Pain

[FishTacoTuesday]

[Sconch]

18 minutes ago, Warsteinner said:

Apparently did his job well. 

So it wasn't a "gun free zone" right?

[3C's]

lol @ doomsday prepper. The zombies are coming...for your guns!

[GrandpaRox]

Two reasons for civilians to own assault weapons are self-defense and defense against tyranny.

 

 

[Funkley]

Zombies

Drug cartels

Killer rabbits

[Sconch]

2 minutes ago, GrandpaRox said:

Two reasons for civilians to own assault weapons are self-defense and defense against tyranny.

 

 

If the US government ever became "tyrannical" Joe Blow's assault rifle is going to be about as useful as Anne Frank's drum kit.

[Amused to Death]

Bill O'Reilly on Colbert tonight,  "ban assault weapons, mandatory federal sentences for all crimes committed with guns"

Bill O coming around. 

[SameSongNDance]

43 minutes ago, The Ref said:

This one is being overlooked.

Is it really though? I have to imagine that the odds of our country being invaded by a foreign army are infinitesimal. Considering what's possibly at stake, I don't think this and "overthrowing the government" are even remotely good reasons to keep them legal.

[GrandpaRox]

1 minute ago, Sconch said:

If the US government ever became "tyrannical" Joe Blow's assault rifle is going to be about as useful as Anne Frank's drum kit.

Try to sell that to the people of Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya among others. The US Government did a bang up job there. They by the way did not have to deal with 3.7 million weapons in the hands of the civilians.

[GrandpaRox]

Quote

 

Our Founding Fathers gave us the most profound justification for civilians owning assault rifles: protection from tyranny.  Many people believe that the United States could never become despotic, but it is not implausible for a democracy to turn tyrannical.  In 1925, Italy went from a parliamentary democracy to a dictatorship under Mussolini.  In 1933, Germany went from a parliamentary democracy to a totalitarian regime under Hitler.  In 1939, Spain went from a republic to a dictatorship under Franco.  As Ronald Reagan once said, "[f]reedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." 

 

Once tyranny usurps power over the people, unconscionable brutality soon becomes the norm.  In 1938, Hitler banned Jews from possessing firearms.  Shortly thereafter, weapons were confiscated, followed by genocide of the Jewish population.  Six million Jews were killed throughout Europe and the Soviet area.  In 1915, the Ottoman Empire put forth a decree disarming all Armenians.  Shortly thereafter, weapons were confiscated, followed by genocide of the Armenian population.  Approximately one million were killed.  In 1918, the Soviet Union introduced firearm registration followed by confiscation.  Communist Party members were exempt from the confiscation order.  From 1929 to 1945, Stalin committed genocide against "Kulaks" and Communist dissidents.  An estimated twenty million were killed. 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by GrandpaRox

[Sconch]

2 minutes ago, GrandpaRox said:

Try to sell that to the people of Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya among others. The US Government did a bang up job there. They by the way did not have to deal with 3.7 million weapons in the hands of the civilians.

Oh ok

[GrandpaRox]

1 minute ago, Sconch said:

Oh ok

That's all you got. SMFH

[Sconch]

Just now, GrandpaRox said:

That's all you got. SMFH

Yep, that's it.  You won.

[Ministry of Pain]

6 minutes ago, SameSongNDance said:

Is it really though? I have to imagine that the odds of our country being invaded by a foreign army are infinitesimal. Considering what's possibly at stake, I don't think this and "overthrowing the government" are even remotely good reasons to keep them legal.

I'm sure the Romans who had the longest rule of anyone to my knowledge and yet fell victim to?

Barbarians

Let's ask them if they thought anyone would invade and conquer. 

[GrandpaRox]

5 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

I'm sure the Romans who had the longest rule of anyone to my knowledge and yet fell victim to?

Barbarians

Let's ask them if they thought anyone would invade and conquer. 

Don't forget the Ukrainians in 2014 or Egypt in 2011. 

[SameSongNDance]

4 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

I'm sure the Romans who had the longest rule of anyone to my knowledge and yet fell victim to?

Barbarians

Let's ask them if they thought anyone would invade and conquer.

The fall of Rome can be attributed to a lot more than just Barbarians but Rome was under consistent pressure from invading forces for decades before it fell. We are much more insulated from a foreign invasion for a multitude of reasons. I honestly can't take this argument seriously. It's like someone attempting to sell me a gadget that helps me avoid being struck by lightning when it rains.

[Smack Tripper]

Why would anyone need..... A motorcycle?  

They kill at a rate at or above the non-suicide mortality rate of guns. 

[Ministry of Pain]

3 minutes ago, SameSongNDance said:

The fall of Rome can be attributed to a lot more than just Barbarians but Rome was under consistent pressure from invading forces for decades before it fell. We are much more insulated from a foreign invasion for a multitude of reasons. I honestly can't take this argument seriously. It's like someone attempting to sell me a gadget that helps me avoid being struck by lightning when it rains.

And in turn you have no respect for history books it seems. I can't really take the conversation much further either but nice of you to try the I'm above all of this approach. 

[GrandpaRox]

• The 2011 Libyan Civil War in which rebel forces gradually take control of the country, and kill the leader Muammar Gaddafi.
  • 2011 Post-civil war violence in Libya
  • 2011 Syrian uprising
  • Bahraini uprising of 2011
  • 2011 Iraqi protests
  • 2011 Jordanian protests
  • 2011 Omani protests
  • 2011 Yemeni revolution the revolt that lead to the eventual resignation of Ali Abdullah Saleh as President of Yemen.
  • 2011–12 Moroccan protests
  • 2011–12 Saudi Arabian protests
• SlutWalk begins in Toronto in 2011, and spreads to the United States, Europe, Asia, and Latin America
• 2011 Israeli social justice protests
• 2011 Azerbaijani protests
• 2011–12 Iranian protests
• 2011–13 Russian protests
• 2011–13 Spanish protests
• 2011–12 Maldives political crisis: Public protests and police mutiny lead to resignation of PresidentMohammed Nasheed
• 2012 Tuareg rebellion
• Central African Republic conflict (2012–present)–François Bozizé, president of the Central African Republic, is overthrown by the rebel coalition Seleka, led by Michel Djotodia.
• 2012–2013 M23 rebellion
• 2013 Eritrean Army mutiny
• 2013 Shahbag protests in Bangladesh demanding capital punishment for convicted war criminals ofBangladesh Liberation War
• 2013 protests in Turkey
• 2013 protests in Brazil
• June 2013 Egyptian protests, which led to Mohamed Morsi being removed in what he and his organization accuses of being a "coup d'état"
• 2013 South Sudanese political crisis
• 2013–14 Tunisian protests against the Ennahda-led government.
• 2014 unrest in Bosnia and Herzegovina
• 2014 Protests in Venezuela
• 2014 Ukrainian Revolution
• 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine
• 2014 Pakistan protests against election rigging
• 2014 Hong Kong protests
• 2014 Burkinabé uprising
• Abkhazian Revolution
• 2014 Burkinabé uprising
• Tunisian Revolution
• Egyptian Revolution of 2011
• Libyan Civil War (2011)
• Yemeni Revolution
• 2013-current Rojava Revolution
• 2015 Burundian unrest
• 2015 PKK rebellion

[SameSongNDance]

1 minute ago, Ministry of Pain said:

And in turn you have no respect for history books it seems. I can't really take the conversation much further either but nice of you to try the I'm above all of this approach.

Instead of saying I lack respect for history books, explain what is wrong with my refutation of your Rome analogy.

I don't see how I'm taking an "above all" approach, I'm just approaching this subject rationally. What do you believe the odds are that we'll be invaded by a foreign army? I'm not sure that it's even feasible for any one country to do so. 

[Ministry of Pain]

7 minutes ago, SameSongNDance said:

Instead of saying I lack respect for history books, explain what is wrong with my refutation of your Rome analogy.

I don't see how I'm taking an "above all" approach, I'm just approaching this subject rationally. What do you believe the odds are that we'll be invaded by a foreign army? I'm not sure that it's even feasible for any one country to do so. 

All countries eventually fall, let's not make it any easier. We already are breeding apathy for this country by the very folks who run it. Internal apathy is a country killer if you decide to crack open a history book sometime. 

You twice post like I'm nuts to discuss the Fall of Rome, that's utter nonsense and holds little validity in any scholar level discussions. 

[The Future Champs]

Not taking a side in pro/anti guns here, but:

Protecting the country from foreign invaders is ridiculous.   There's no country in the world that has the military capability to successfully invade the United States.   For example, Cuba has 90,000 soldiers.   In comparison, there are 46,000 police officers and 65,000 active military personnel in Florida.  The police officers are probably better armed than the average Cuban soldier.  Too many of you grew up watching Red Dawn and dreaming of preventing the Cubans from pushing their way through the heartland of the country.   In reality, they'd be lucky to occupy Key West for a couple of days.

[dparker713]

42 minutes ago, GrandpaRox said:

 

Why aren't you pushing for all forms of weaponry to be available for private sale?  Is it maybe because you understand there is some level of firepower that is entirely irresponsible to allow in private hands?

[timschochet]

I love it when we're discussing assault rifles and we get arguments about the Founding Fathers, the fall of Rome and the Holocaust. If you listen to the NRA, all of history becomes a discussion about how the government took everybody's guns away. It's the key to everything that's ever happened! 

[GrandpaRox]

10 minutes ago, The Future Champs said:

Not taking a side in pro/anti guns here, but:

Protecting the country from foreign invaders is ridiculous.   There's no country in the world that has the military capability to successfully invade the United States.   For example, Cuba has 90,000 soldiers.   In comparison, there are 46,000 police officers and 65,000 active military personnel in Florida.  The police officers are probably better armed than the average Cuban soldier.  Too many of you grew up watching Red Dawn and dreaming of preventing the Cubans from pushing their way through the heartland of the country.   In reality, they'd be lucky to occupy Key West for a couple of days.

I am not sure the Russians or Chinese are either afraid of us or respect us or could not hurt us very badly. They would probably be more afraid of our armed civilians as a final deterrent.

[GrandpaRox]

6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I love it when we're discussing assault rifles and we get arguments about the Founding Fathers, the fall of Rome and the Holocaust. If you listen to the NRA, all of history becomes a discussion about how the government took everybody's guns away. It's the key to everything that's ever happened! 

How about you do some research about my post above. 

Maybe someone should quote because evidently Tim has me blocked. Because his post is just total ignorance.

[SameSongNDance]

20 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

All countries eventually fall, let's not make it any easier. We already are breeding apathy for this country by the very folks who run it. Internal apathy is a country killer if you decide to crack open a history book sometime.

You twice post like I'm nuts to discuss the Fall of Rome, that's utter nonsense and holds little validity in any scholar level discussions.

Ah, I'm clearly not fit to discuss this topic because I haven't read as many history books as you.

Okay MoP, you're right, our country is doomed. We should all stockpile assault rifles instead of enacting laws that could save lives as we await the dystopion future.

[GrandpaRox]

15 minutes ago, dparker713 said:

Why aren't you pushing for all forms of weaponry to be available for private sale?  Is it maybe because you understand there is some level of firepower that is entirely irresponsible to allow in private hands?

We are at an acceptable level now. A higher level is not required for either of my original reasons, a lesser level could be dangerous.

[dparker713]

Just now, GrandpaRox said:

We are at an acceptable level now. A higher level is not required for either of my original reasons, a lesser level could be dangerous.

The military has stinger missles, Apache helicopters, M1 Abrams tanks, F22s. reaper drones and enough nuclear weapons to destroy every lifeform on this planet.  And you think the populace is properly equipped to overthrow the government? 

[ConnSKINS26]

29 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

 You twice post like I'm nuts to discuss the Fall of Rome, that's utter nonsense and holds little validity in any scholar level discussions. 

[GrandpaRox]

2 minutes ago, dparker713 said:

The military has stinger missles, Apache helicopters, M1 Abrams tanks, F22s. reaper drones and enough nuclear weapons to destroy every lifeform on this planet.  And you think the populace is properly equipped to overthrow the government? 

Again did we not have those for Iraq and Afghanistan? We are still sending people home in body bags and got our collective backsides kicked. Plus I did not say to overthrow the government at any time. 

[The Future Champs]

15 minutes ago, GrandpaRox said:

I am not sure the Russians or Chinese are either afraid of us or respect us or could not hurt us very badly. They would probably be more afraid of our armed civilians as a final deterrent.

Yes, they could hurt us badly, with nukes, but I don't think a bunch of fat, out of shape middle aged ####s armed with assault rifles concerns them in the least.

[Ministry of Pain]

7 minutes ago, SameSongNDance said:

Ah, I'm clearly not fit to discuss this topic because I haven't read as many history books as you.

Okay MoP, you're right, our country is doomed. We should all stockpile assault rifles instead of enacting laws that could save lives as we await the dystopion future.

Don't try and spin it like I put myself above you when I am the one who originally posted it in reaction to you posting "I can't take it any further" plays like you are smarter than the rest of us which is insulting to some of us who teach on the subject and hold degrees. 

Now you can't have it both ways so do you want to try and claim you are above it or act like a victim or door #3(I love playing Monty) just admit you were wrong for once and continue to discuss the idea instead of shutting it down because you can't tolerate ideas that run counter to your views?

Just bend a little it won't kill you. 

[Ministry of Pain]

4 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

If they had allowed Roman citizens to carry semi-automatic spears, we might still be speaking Aramaic. 

[GrandpaRox]

2 minutes ago, The Future Champs said:

Yes, they could hurt us badly, with nukes, but I don't think a bunch of fat, out of shape middle aged ####s armed with assault rifles concerns them in the least.

You sir are clueless and have no idea what you are talking about.  We could not take and hold a small city in Iraq when the enemy had IED's and weapons not near as effective as an AR 15 platform weapon. 

But now I am done. Read history, recent history and learn something. Google is your friend research just a few of the incidents I posted earlier.   Wow.

[ConnSKINS26]

Just now, GrandpaRox said:

You sir are clueless and have no idea what you are talking about.  We could not take and hold a small city in Iraq when the enemy had IED's and weapons not near as effective as an AR 15 platform weapon. 

But now I am done. Read history, recent history and learn something. Google is your friend research just a few of the incidents I posted earlier.   Wow.

We weren't willing to level entire cities in Iraq or Afghanistan, guy. We weren't trying to turn it all to glass. We were trying to root out terrorists in areas full of civilians. Pretty sure anyone crazy enough to go to war on American soil is not going to have the same reservations, or the same goals. You sound like an idiot.

[SameSongNDance]

7 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Don't try and spin it like I put myself above you when I am the one who originally posted it in reaction to you posting "I can't take it any further" plays like you are smarter than the rest of us which is insulting to some of us who teach on the subject and hold degrees.

Now you can't have it both ways so do you want to try and claim you are above it or act like a victim or door #3(I love playing Monty) just admit you were wrong for once and continue to discuss the idea instead of shutting it down because you can't tolerate ideas that run counter to your views?

Just bend a little it won't kill you.

No. I still think your claim that the reason we shouldn't ban assault rifles is because we need to be prepared for a foreign invasion is stupid. 

[dparker713]

22 minutes ago, GrandpaRox said:

Again did we not have those for Iraq and Afghanistan? We are still sending people home in body bags and got our collective backsides kicked. Plus I did not say to overthrow the government at any time. 

We didn't get our assed kicked in Iraq or Afghanistan

If the purpose of having assault rifles is as a counter balance to the federal government, having weapons that can actually defend against their capabilities would seem to be important.  Or do you think assault weapons are an effective countermeasure to air superiority?

[dparker713]

23 minutes ago, GrandpaRox said:

You sir are clueless and have no idea what you are talking about.  We could not take and hold a small city in Iraq when the enemy had IED's and weapons not near as effective as an AR 15 platform weapon. 

But now I am done. Read history, recent history and learn something. Google is your friend research just a few of the incidents I posted earlier.   Wow.

Had we chosen, we could have leveled every city in Iraq like we did Dresden.  Small arms are only a sufficient defense when we exercise discretion.  

Edited June 14, 2016 by dparker713

[GrandpaRox]

So we are going to level most American cities like we fire bombed Dresden. Are your relatives gonna fire bomb you and your neighbors. You gonna kill your cousin in another city?