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I LOVE Elizabeth Warren: All aboard - WOO WOO!!! (4 Viewers)

Philo Beddoe said:
No it doesn’t. It shows Harvard added it. It could have been an EEO requirement but we don’t know because we haven’t seen her Harvard employment application.
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If it was an EEO requirement then it would have been added when she was hired, not 5 months after she got tenure.

Actually, if it was an EEO requirement then Brietbart would have mentioned it already.

 
Philo Beddoe said:
You don’t know me, don’t know my voting patterns, don’t know my ideology, background or anything about me but, you label me, mock me and, basically call me a troll. Who’s the troll here?
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I know you are engaging in what I think is clearly a bad faith demand for documentation about a politician's background, similar to demands I've seen from conservatives in the recent past. I explained why I thought it was a bad faith inquiry. After that you posted information about yourself which made you sound similar to a longtime poster around here who posted some racist stuff in this very thread and was banned (not sure if it was for the racist stuff in this thread or elsewhere- he was pretty racist), so I suggested that perhaps you are his alias, given the apparent coincidences. Then I listed more information supporting the argument that you are an alias.

I don't know how any of that constitutes labeling you (other than as an alias, I guess), mocking you or calling you a troll. If you want to point out to me the alleged insults or mocking or name-calling, please do.  Sometimes I cross the line but I always apologize if I've done so and it's pointed out to me.  Otherwise, please knock it off with the false accusations.  TIA.

 
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Philo Beddoe said:
If it didn’t then release the hiring docs 
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People have responded to your fishing with this enough and you don’t accept what they have posted.  My guess is you wouldn't be accepting of anything she releases...and Id bet have no issue with Trump not releasing tax documents and didn’t care about how many documents were withheld with Kavanaugh.

Also save the victim card I’m not insulting you or calling you anything.

 
sho nuff said:
People have responded to your fishing with this enough and you don’t accept what they have posted.  My guess is you wouldn't be accepting of anything she releases...and Id bet have no issue with Trump not releasing tax documents and didn’t care about how many documents were withheld with Kavanaugh.

Also save the victim card I’m not insulting you or calling you anything.
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If her hiring docs proved to be favorable she would have released them. What she released doesn’t tell us anything other than Penn thought she was Native American and then subsequently Harvard thought so as well. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
I know you are engaging in what I think is clearly a bad faith demand for documentation about a politician's background, similar to demands I've seen from conservatives in the recent past. I explained why I thought it was a bad faith inquiry. After that you posted information about yourself which made you sound similar to a longtime poster around here who posted some racist stuff in this very thread and was banned (not sure if it was for the racist stuff in this thread or elsewhere- he was pretty racist), so I suggested that perhaps you are his alias, given the apparent coincidences. Then I listed more information supporting the argument that you are an alias.

I don't know how any of that constitutes labeling you (other than as an alias, I guess), mocking you or calling you a troll. If you want to point out to me the alleged insults or mocking or name-calling, please do.  Sometimes I cross the line but I always apologize if I've done so and it's pointed out to me.  Otherwise, please knock it off with the false accusations.  TIA.
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“I'm just asking honest questions.  Posters with integrity are important to me.”

Seems like you were mocking me. Pretty childish.

 

 
IC FBGCav said:
sho nuff said:
What was to help her? Because those at Harvard who hired have said it played zero part.
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Why did she do it then?
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Harvard wanted to make itself look more diversified and she agreed to let them include her on the list of minority professors.

It's not a good look for her (it shows a lack of leadership IMO), but she had already made tenure at that point so it had no serious effect on her career.

 
Philo Beddoe said:
If her hiring docs proved to be favorable she would have released them. What she released doesn’t tell us anything other than Penn thought she was Native American and then subsequently Harvard thought so as well. 
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This seems to be a similar argument to “if Obama’s birth certificate says he was born in Hawaii, why hasn’t he released it?”

 
[scooter] said:
Harvard wanted to make itself look more diversified and she agreed to let them include her on the list of minority professors.

It's not a good look for her (it shows a lack of leadership IMO), but she had already made tenure at that point so it had no serious effect on her career.
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I will take this at face value and stand firm on my common sense position when it comes to releasing the DNA results and then boasting about it.

 
Philo Beddoe said:
“I'm just asking honest questions.  Posters with integrity are important to me.”

Seems like you were mocking me. Pretty childish.

 
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Sorry you feel that way.  That wasn't the intent- the intent was to further illustrate why I thought your inquiry was in bad faith, using your own words. Maybe next time start with the truth instead of wrongly accusing me of insulting you, and I'll try to be more sensitive in return. Deal?

 
IC FBGCav said:
[scooter] said:
Harvard wanted to make itself look more diversified and she agreed to let them include her on the list of minority professors.

It's not a good look for her (it shows a lack of leadership IMO), but she had already made tenure at that point so it had no serious effect on her career.
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I will take this at face value and stand firm on my common sense position when it comes to releasing the DNA results and then boasting about it.
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Fair enough, but let me ask this: do you think that the DNA test tends to support her family's story that she had a great-great-great-grandmother who was Native American? Or do you think that the test tends to refute the family story?

 
TobiasFunke said:
Sorry you feel that way.  That wasn't the intent- the intent was to further illustrate why I thought your inquiry was in bad faith, using your own words. Maybe next time start with the truth instead of wrongly accusing me of insulting you, and I'll try to be more sensitive in return. Deal?
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What was untruthful about anything I said?

 
Philo Beddoe said:
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
This seems to be a similar argument to “if Obama’s birth certificate says he was born in Hawaii, why hasn’t he released it?”
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Yeah but it doesn’t. If you want to prove you didn’t use minority status in a hiring decision, show your work? 
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She showed her work via interviews with 31 people who all consistently stated that she didn't use minority status.

She showed her work by providing paystubs which listed her as white prior to getting tenure.

You're playing the "No True Scotsman" game. Whatever evidence she provides, you'll move the goalpost to the next made-up requirement. You're not interested in the facts, you're just interested in making Warren jump through hoops for your amusement.

 
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fatguyinalittlecoat said:
This seems to be a similar argument to “if Obama’s birth certificate says he was born in Hawaii, why hasn’t he released it?”
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I think it would be similar if she hadn’t run the DNA tests and publicly flaunted them.  She’s now a willing participant in this game.  I’m really surprised she did that.

 
[scooter] said:
She showed her work via interviews with 31 people who all consistently stated that she didn't use minority status.

She showed her work by providing paystubs which listed her as white prior to getting tenure.

You're playing the "No True Scotsman" game. Whatever evidence she provides, you'll move the goalpost to the next made-up requirement. You're not interest in the facts, you're just interested in making Warren jump through hoops for your amusement.
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I’m not moving the goalposts she is. She has provided no evidence. Everything she has said about this has been a lie. I’ll ask this again, why did she wait until her 30’s before she started identifying as a Native American if not to benefit from that some way?

 
Philo Beddoe said:
I’m not moving the goalposts she is. She has provided no evidence. Everything she has said about this has been a lie. I’ll ask this again, why did she wait until her 30’s before she started identifying as a Native American if not to benefit from that some way?
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What evidence do you have that suggests Warren used her heritage to increase her chances of getting jobs?  Anything? 

 
Philo Beddoe said:
I’m not moving the goalposts she is. She has provided no evidence. Everything she has said about this has been a lie. I’ll ask this again, why did she wait until her 30’s before she started identifying as a Native American if not to benefit from that some way?
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This is from the Boston Globe article.  Also, I'm not sure it has been shown how she benefited from identifying as Native American. 

It is a move that, especially for her critics, raises the question: If Warren didn’t make the change to get ahead professionally, then why do it at all?

The senator, in the interview with the Globe, offered to fill out this part of her personal story. Yes, her career was taking off, she said, but she was also losing her family.

Warren said she had always identified closely with her mother’s side of the family: a sprawling and rowdy group with scant resources who looked after one another, and who, according to family lore, have Cherokee and Delaware blood.

When her grandmother died in 1969, Warren’s mother and three aunts led the family and further impressed on her their proud Cherokee connection.

Then in the late 1980s, around the time that Warren began identifying professionally as Native American, she began losing them, too. Her aunt Mae Reed Masterson died in October 1989. Her aunt Alice Ann Reed Carnes died in August 1990. That left her mother and her aunt Bess Veneck, (aka Aunt Bee), who lived with Warren and helped her raise her children.

Warren campaign

Warren’s “Aunt Bee” — Bess Veneck — moved in with the Warren family and helped raise her children. She’s pictured here on Easter 1981 with Amelia Warren, 9, and Alex Warren, 4.

“The two women in my life who have always been my guides through the world began to focus even more on the past,” Warren explained.
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TobiasFunke said:
I didn't insult you. 

I think we're done here.  I'll leave you to your dogged pursuit of the truth of the exact circumstances and documentation related to Elizabeth Warren's hiring at Harvard Law School 23 years ago. Best of luck.
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It's truly unbelievable that we're in the midst of the most corrupt administration in modern history, and instead of being outraged about any number of legitimate scandals, conservatives are laser focused on Liz Warren's hiring documents from 2 decades ago.  

Nothing matters anymore. 

 
[scooter] said:
The leader of the Cherokee Nation is also more white than most people.

There are at least 23 Native American tribes who do not use a specific blood quantum as a membership requirement, including the Cherokee Nation. They only require that you have one ancestor who was Native American.

Elizabeth Warren was told as a child that she had an ancestor who was Native American. The DNA test tends to indicate that this was true, although the ancestor was probably more distant than what her family told her.

If you want to attack Warren for using her Native status to further her career, or for mishandling her responses, that's fine. But to attack her for believing what her family told her, especially when it looks like the stories were based on fact? That's intellectually dishonest.
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It only proved she had some distant Mexican, Peruvian or Canadian relative , six to ten generations back.

He was able only to compare Ms. Warren’s DNA to that of indigenous people in Peru and Mexico, as well as First Nations people in Canada
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Philo Beddoe said:
Yeah but it doesn’t. If you want to prove you didn’t use minority status in a hiring decision, show your work? 
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Have you read the Boston Globe article?  The passage below seems to show the work pretty well.

One area that 30 of the 31 professors interviewed by the Globe agreed on: There was no talk about her Native American claims during the meetings over her appointment. One professor emeritus, Lloyd Weinreb, said he believes her Native American ancestry was discussed. But, in an e-mail he questioned his own recollection: “I am not sure enough for you to rely on me,” he wrote.

Perhaps most telling was the role of Randall Kennedy, a law professor who was on the Harvard appointments committee at the time, and was in charge of recruiting minority candidates.

“She was not on the radar screen at all in terms of a racial minority hire,” Kennedy told the Globe. “It was just not an issue. I can’t remember anybody ever mentioning her in this context.”

This view is shared by those on the faculty who aren’t close with Warren, ideologically or personally.

“This is a made-up issue,” said Alan Dershowitz, a Harvard Law professor emeritus and occasional Trump defender, when asked if her heritage played a role. “This is not an issue that’s worthy of the president or anyone else.”
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Philo Beddoe said:
What was untruthful about anything I said?
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Here's a quick list of the untruthful things you've said today:

1. Warren "start[ed] claiming Native American heritage at Penn for the first time in her life in her 30’s" (WRONG! The earliest example of Warren mentioning Native ancestry is a family cookbook which was published 3 years before she went to Penn.)

2. "Warren never claimed to be Native American until her late 30s." (WRONG! She claimed it in 1984 at age 34.)

3. "Warren only used alleged Native American status for employment purposes" (WRONG! Aside from the cookbook, it has been established that she wasn't listed as Native at Harvard until AFTER her employment was secured via tenure.)

4. "analysis that compares Warren’s DNA to numerous groups, including non-Native American groups." (Disingenuous at best. The DNA was compared to natives of North and South America, but they were all Native Americans.)

Four mistruths in half a day. That's not a bad start for your first day back after a long hiatus. You should try focusing on voter fraud for your next project.

 
Here’s another lie -

Democratic Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren, fending off questions about whether she used her Native American heritage to advance her career, said today she enrolled herself as a minority in law school directories for nearly a decade because she hoped to meet other people with tribal roots.

“I listed myself in the directory in the hopes that it might mean that I would be invited to a luncheon, a group something that might happen with people who are like I am. Nothing like that ever happened, that was clearly not the use for it and so I stopped checking it off,” said Warren….

“Being Native American has been part of my story I guess since the day I was born,” said Warren, who never mentioned her Native American heritage on the campaign trail even as she detailed much of her personal history to voters in speeches, statements and a video. “These are my family stories, I have lived in a family that has talked about Native American and talked about tribes since I was a little girl.”

Why doesn’t it add up?

Because the section listing “minority” faculty doesn’t list which minority, so Warren listing herself that way would not be a means of meeting other Native Americans, because no one else would know she was claiming to be Native American just from the listing.  (I wonder how Harvard knew if she never told them and it never came up?)

 
Philo Beddoe said:
I’m not moving the goalposts she is. She has provided no evidence. Everything she has said about this has been a lie. I’ll ask this again, why did she wait until her 30’s before she started identifying as a Native American if not to benefit from that some way?
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My ancestors are peasant farmers from Eastern Europe. We have a very unique and unusual surname.  For the first 20-something years of my life, I pronounced it a certain way. The accent was always on the second syllable. And growing up, my friends used to always call me by that last name, with the accent on the second syllable. People knew me and my family by that name.

Growing up, I also recall my grandparents always pronouncing it a different way - with the accent on the first syllable. I remember having a conversation with my father about it. At some point as an adult, I began to pronounce my surname as my ancestors and how it is intended, with the accent on the first syllable. And now my wife and kids all pronounce it the correct way. It’s a small detail, but it’s important to me. And I find it funny that my brother and his family still pronounce it the “other” way.

People mature, and family heritage becomes more important. It doesn’t mean #### in the grand scheme of things, but it can be important to certain individuals. 

 
Philo Beddoe said:
Here’s another lie -

Democratic Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren, fending off questions about whether she used her Native American heritage to advance her career, said today she enrolled herself as a minority in law school directories for nearly a decade because she hoped to meet other people with tribal roots.

“I listed myself in the directory in the hopes that it might mean that I would be invited to a luncheon, a group something that might happen with people who are like I am. Nothing like that ever happened, that was clearly not the use for it and so I stopped checking it off,” said Warren….

“Being Native American has been part of my story I guess since the day I was born,” said Warren, who never mentioned her Native American heritage on the campaign trail even as she detailed much of her personal history to voters in speeches, statements and a video. “These are my family stories, I have lived in a family that has talked about Native American and talked about tribes since I was a little girl.”

Why doesn’t it add up?

Because the section listing “minority” faculty doesn’t list which minority, so Warren listing herself that way would not be a means of meeting other Native Americans, because no one else would know she was claiming to be Native American just from the listing.  (I wonder how Harvard knew if she never told them and it never came up?)
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This point is illogical.  

If her goal was to meet more people like her, checking the box is an objectively better way to accomplish that than the alternative of not checking the box.  

 
I want to take advantage of my heritage...I won’t accept any assistance for minorities...or present myself in any application as a minority.

No, I have got the genius plan.  List myself in a directory...then watch all the big bucks pour in.

 
[scooter] said:
You have no proof that she was lying.

You actually made a decent point about the directory not listing her as "Native American", but then you went about ruined it with the followup posts.
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Excuse me? You asked me what she lied about. If her goal being listed was to meet other native Americans and, the directory only listed her as a minority and not a Native American, how would other native Americans know she was Native American as well? She did this for 10 years. It’s clearly a lie.

 
sho nuff said:
I want to take advantage of my heritage...I won’t accept any assistance for minorities...or present myself in any application as a minority.

No, I have got the genius plan.  List myself in a directory...then watch all the big bucks pour in.
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How do you know Harvard didn’t recruit her thinking she was Native American? You don’t because she won’t release her hiring docs.

 
Philo Beddoe said:
sho nuff said:
I want to take advantage of my heritage...I won’t accept any assistance for minorities...or present myself in any application as a minority.

No, I have got the genius plan.  List myself in a directory...then watch all the big bucks pour in.
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How do you know Harvard didn’t recruit her thinking she was Native American? You don’t because she won’t release her hiring docs.
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How do you know she won't?

 
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