Thunderlips
Footballguy
"Norms" aren't Constitutional though.Shutout said:
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***Official*** 25th Amendment Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sinn Fein
- Start date
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Jackstraw said:
I'm not a big fan of packing the court at this time as I think the people that Trump has put in are qualified...... But "norms" isn't exactly the best defense against political manuvering in Washington D.C.
gianmarco
Footballguy
The actions over the last few weeks are not of someone well and sound mind. I know there's only 30 days left, but it could end up being very destructive.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
If Trump is to be removed, Impeachment would be way more preferable. The mechanics of how Section 4 of the 25th Amendment would be total chaos as well as leaving open the door for Trump to run again. Impeachment would actually be ultimately faster, less messy, and bar him from running again.gianmarco said:
Section 4:
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Impeachment requires a trial, and all the while Trump would get to remain in office. In theory, he could incite riots while simultaneously pardoning the rioters.
But the 25th Amendment would remove Trump from power immediately. (All the stuff about Congress voting within 21 days is moot because Trump only has 14 days left in office.)
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
I love that some of you actually believe this would somehow de-escalate things.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I love that you think that doing the right thing will always have perfect results.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
I think that today, actually went a long way towards doing that.
Country needed a single rallying point, and I think, for a majority of people, today was a step too far.
Ed O'Keefe @edokeefe · 12m
JUST IN: “This is not news we deliver lightly,”
@margbrennan says as she reports: Trump Cabinet secretaries are discussing invoking the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump. Nothing formal yet presented to VP Pence. “I’m talking about actual members of the Cabinet,” she says
JUST IN: “This is not news we deliver lightly,”
@margbrennan says as she reports: Trump Cabinet secretaries are discussing invoking the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump. Nothing formal yet presented to VP Pence. “I’m talking about actual members of the Cabinet,” she says
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Agreed. I was telling a co-worker before we left work today that this is a crying shame because I have family members and friends who are conservative and none of them want any part of what went down today.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
When you have people literally storming the capital building, we're past the "escalation" point. The only legitimate option now is to remove Trump from office so he can't do any more damage and arrest him. If Trump supporters want to protest that peacefully, fine. If they turn to violence, it's time that they learn a lesson about nations deal with insurrections. Regardless, their behavior is up to them. The important thing is to get this guy out of office.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Sadly, its been a legitimate option for a long time. Still, if he isn't removed through the 25th, then the 25th is worthless. If he isn't impeached and convicted by the end of the week, the impeachment power is worthless.
Far too many systems are failing to work with this abomination of president all because of the cowardice of his political party. They should all pay a heavy price. All of them.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
The VP-elect told everyone this summer to keep protesting and keep rioting when people were burning down cities, businesses, looting, and beating the hell out of people. Perhaps she shouldn't be allowed to enter office either.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
“Everyone beware. They're not gonna stop before election day in November, and they're not gonna stop after election day ... They’re not gonna let up, and they should not.”
AAABatteries
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-kamala-harris-late-show-rio/fact-check-kamala-harris-said-she-supports-protests-not-riots-in-late-show-clip-idUSKBN27E34P
Fact check: Kamala Harris said she supports protests, not ‘riots’, in Late Show clip
Social media users have been sharing a video of Democratic vice-presidential candidate Kamala Harris saying that anti-racism protests will not and should not stop, claiming that it shows she supports Black Lives Matter riots.
[...]
In her response in the clip from the Late Show there is no mention of riots, violent protests, looting or arson.
Harris condemned violent protests on Aug. 27 after multiple nights of looting and two violent deaths.
She said, “It’s no wonder people are taking to the streets and I support them. We must always defend peaceful protest and peaceful protestors. We should not confuse them with those looting and committing acts of violence, including the shooter who was arrested for murder. And make no mistake, we will not let these vigilantes and extremists derail the path to justice.” ( here )
gianmarco
Footballguy
This 100%. He's a danger and a threat to our country at this point. If this isn't invoked now, then the entire process needs to be examined and fixed.
Swan is pretty connected, I think (talking about Kinzinger):
Jonathan Swan @jonathanvswan·28s
Yes, and many senior members of the administration have also discussed it in the wild fury of yesterday, as we reported yesterday. But some may not have read the relevant section of the Constitution and absorbed how difficult it is to pull off in 13 days. Zero chance Pence tries.
Jonathan Swan @jonathanvswan·28s
Yes, and many senior members of the administration have also discussed it in the wild fury of yesterday, as we reported yesterday. But some may not have read the relevant section of the Constitution and absorbed how difficult it is to pull off in 13 days. Zero chance Pence tries.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
This was my assumption on what would be said but obviously there would have to be a line where they can no longer use timing as an excuse. If Trump orders a nuclear attack on South Korea later today, I’m assuming they’d figure it out. Right?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
A couple of co-workers in my office are talking about Facebook banning Trump as if that's some kind of victory. The guy is still president and he still has nuclear codes.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Isn't the process like this:
1. Pence and 8 members of Cabinet agree to invoke
2. Pence and 8 members of Cabinet write to Grassley to "make it so"
3. It is made so
4. Trump can contest it if he wishes
5. Congress has to vote on it within 21 days
6. (Presumably), Pelosi sits on it until Jan 21, at which time it becomes moot
@Yankee23Fan - Little help here?
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Meh - lets just humor him. Its probably just locker room talk.This was my assumption on what would be said but obviously there would have to be a line where they can no longer use timing as an excuse. If Trump orders a nuclear attack on South Korea later today, I’m assuming they’d figure it out. Right?
Here is George Conway's take:
George Conway @gtconway3d
The twenty-fifth amendment could be used to take @realDonaldTrump out for the rest of his term.
If the VP and a majority of the cabinet were to certify Trump’s inability to carry out the duties of his office, Pence would become acting president. The next thing that would happen is that Trump would say, no, I’m able to carry out my duties, and he’d resume his office ...
... again in four days, unless the VP and the cabinet again certified Trump’s inability to carry out his duties. At that point, the matter goes to Congress, which has 21 days to affirm the Cabinet’s decision. But by then Joe Biden would be president, so there would never ...
... have to be a congressional vote (it takes 2/3 of both houses to sustain the finding of inability). In other words, the Vice President and a majority of the Cabinet could sideline Trump for the rest of his term, since there are only two weeks left in it.
All that said, I’m not hopeful that the Pence and the Cabinet would act.
George Conway @gtconway3d
The twenty-fifth amendment could be used to take @realDonaldTrump out for the rest of his term.
If the VP and a majority of the cabinet were to certify Trump’s inability to carry out the duties of his office, Pence would become acting president. The next thing that would happen is that Trump would say, no, I’m able to carry out my duties, and he’d resume his office ...
... again in four days, unless the VP and the cabinet again certified Trump’s inability to carry out his duties. At that point, the matter goes to Congress, which has 21 days to affirm the Cabinet’s decision. But by then Joe Biden would be president, so there would never ...
... have to be a congressional vote (it takes 2/3 of both houses to sustain the finding of inability). In other words, the Vice President and a majority of the Cabinet could sideline Trump for the rest of his term, since there are only two weeks left in it.
All that said, I’m not hopeful that the Pence and the Cabinet would act.
I think the 25th creates more problems than it solves - in this situation.
Trump would not take it lying down, and would, at a minimum, take it to the Supreme Court - for some ruling on what constitutes "unable to discharge the power and duties of the office."
That will create a messy power vacuum while that is being litigated/resolved.
Trump would not take it lying down, and would, at a minimum, take it to the Supreme Court - for some ruling on what constitutes "unable to discharge the power and duties of the office."
That will create a messy power vacuum while that is being litigated/resolved.
shader
Footballguy
Downside to 25th amendment and impeachment is that it rallies Trump's deflated base. Right now I tend to think his followers are kind of down, deflated and realize that he's not going to be the president. I think a censure would be smart, and maybe you have everything lined up for a quick impeachment if he does ONE MORE THING......
But the immediate danger just isn't there anymore, and it's a logistical thing. All the Trump followers went home. DC itself doesn't have many Trump followers.
I just think there's a risk of major chaos if he's removed right now.
But the immediate danger just isn't there anymore, and it's a logistical thing. All the Trump followers went home. DC itself doesn't have many Trump followers.
I just think there's a risk of major chaos if he's removed right now.
gianmarco
Footballguy
It's already messy.
Put Pence in charge while it gets ironed out. He is not fit for office right now. He's an enemy of America. If it can't be used in this situation, then it's useless. He should not have control of nuclear codes, our military, or anything else at this point. He is disconnected from reality.
Pence takes over and he can litigate and try to overturn it as much as he wants over the next 13 days.
jm192
Footballguy
Respectfully, I don't think they're down at all. Not after yesterday.
And we already have major chaos.
That does not concern me. Maybe it should, but I think Trumpism dies when Trump loses power. Nobody is in position to harness the energy and support of Trump supporters now.
I do feel very strongly that, even symbolically, removing Trump for his conduct yesterday sends a clear and concise message, that this is not how we roll in America. We don't allow anyone to go unpunished for leading an assault on the Capitol.
I get that - but who puts Baby in the corner?
Is there going to be a Mexican stand-off with various Secret Service personnel? Trump will claim power, by citing an illegitimate use of the 25th Amendment. Pence will claim power. But who has the real power in this situation? And where do you physically put Trump - he is not leaving the White House willingly.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Pence isn't acting alone. He doesn't make that decision unilaterally. If Pence + cabinet agree to invoke, which is how it's set up, then yes, Secret Service has him removed. That's the why it exists in the first place. He doesn't have a say initially. That decision comes from multiple people.
Imagine as a very extreme example that Trump has a psychotic breakdown and has no idea who he is, where he is, and has no functioning mental capacity. He's yelling "I am the KING!!!". If Pence/cabinet see this and decide to invoke the 25th amendment and Trump claims power in that state of mind, what do you think happens or should happen? Yes, he is forcefully removed until the situation can be settled. He doesn't get to stay in charge for weeks while it gets litigated.
As to where you put him physically, I have no idea. I would hope this spelled out and defined somewhere. If not, then it needs to be.
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I am not 100% sure that is true.
A better argument is that the 25th Amendment exists for when a president is physically incapacitated - in a coma. Its a little stretch to include "We don't trust the way he would execute his duties".
The argument is there - but it would be a legitimate Supreme Court challenge to the use.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Is there a difference between physical and mental incapacitation for intents and purposes here?
Yes, I don't think I wrote that correctly in that this is how it was meant to be used. But, I do think it's a reasonable interpretation of it. However, others certainly know better than me about it.
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Putting this here also - since I think Chao would have been one of the 8 to sign off on any 25th Amendment claim:
Josh Dawsey @jdawsey1 · 6m
Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao is resigning, per two officials. Cites yesterday’s events as reason in email to DOT colleagues, per draft. First Cabinet secretary to resign. Chao is married to Mitch McConnell. More TK.
This was going back and forth yesterday as to whether she would resign.
Josh Dawsey @jdawsey1 · 6m
Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao is resigning, per two officials. Cites yesterday’s events as reason in email to DOT colleagues, per draft. First Cabinet secretary to resign. Chao is married to Mitch McConnell. More TK.
This was going back and forth yesterday as to whether she would resign.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I'm not accusing her of this but your post made me think - if you are part of his cabinet with future ambitions in the GOP, which is theoretically better for you - to vote to get him out of office or resign in disgust? Again, not saying either of those apply to her.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez @AOC · 44s
At this late a stage, resignations help little beyond serving as late attempts at self-preservation. If Sec. Chao objects to yesterday’s events this deeply, she should be working the Cabinet to invoke the 25th amendment - not abdicating the seat that allows her to do so.
At this late a stage, resignations help little beyond serving as late attempts at self-preservation. If Sec. Chao objects to yesterday’s events this deeply, she should be working the Cabinet to invoke the 25th amendment - not abdicating the seat that allows her to do so.
I doubt she has many future political plans, and McConnell has probably run his last election.
I do think this is politically expedient for her - since it removes her from any 25th Amendment talk.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
More to your general point - I think the best way to move forward for traditional conservatives is a strong, swift cut from Trump politics. So, if you played a role in that, I think that would help you regain party trust.
A mentally unstable person, incapable of accepting reality, has the power to declare martial law. Or start a war.
Sure he can.
That is not the same as saying they would take it up. And, he could also take the slow road via District court.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Honestly, considering the actions at the Capitol yesterday I would imagine Cabinet members can't feel too great about their safety if they were to vote Trump out. I'm torn - I agree with Scooby that maybe we could invoke the 25th on the down low by Pence telling everyone to run stuff through him without fanfare but I also agree with Yankee, IK and many others that Trump absolutely should be impeached and pushed out today.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Impeachment isn't just important in terms of getting Trump out of there, it's also important to force congress people to vote a second time on their complicity in what's been going on - they need to be held accountable for enabling this too. That may actually be more important because many of them will still be in office and may try to run again. They need to be on record for where they stand, unlike the cowards resigning from the Trump admin now that they can't avoid acknowledgement of what a mistake his administration has been.
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