This is why nothing will happen - nobody will stand up and take responsibility here.
Congress people are clamoring for the 25th, instead of being in session voting on Article(s) of Impeachment.
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***Official*** 25th Amendment Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sinn Fein
- Start date
Congress people are clamoring for the 25th, instead of being in session voting on Article(s) of Impeachment.
I don't think the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction on this. It would have to go via district court, so it wouldn't get to the Supreme Court within two weeks.
Also, no court is going to entertain this political question. No district court will, no appellate court, definitely not the Supreme Court.
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But, that is what makes it messy.
I think Trump would have a legitimate (not necessarily a winning) argument on the merits of improper use of the 25th Amendment, which leads to "If its not valid, I'm still in charge!" And, then you have a bunch of people standing around not really sure how to resolve that conflict.
It's resolved by Pence and the cabinet until Congress weighs in up to 20 days later. It's not a gray area.
Ok. You must be new here.
When Trump claims an illegal attempt to remove him from office, and orders someone to arrest Pence for insurrection, or some such thing - I am not so sure everyone will be crystal clear on their roles and responsibility.
Imagine when the AG weighs in as one of the non-8 and offers his legal opinion that this is not a valid invocation of the 25th Amendment.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Several outlets are reporting that Pence is the one who authorized the activation of the National Guard, which raises a bunch of questions that haven't been answered. Was that a clear violation of the law? Or is there some fine print somewhere that allows Pence (or Congress or some other authority) to activate the Guard? Or did Pence not technically make the call, but basically pressured Trump to do it by threatening to invoke the 25th? Seems like a huge story and it's not getting much run.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
I don't think it matters if Trump has a legitimate argument about improper use of the 25th Amendment.
The amendment would put Pence in charge immediately. Period.
If Trump ignores the order, then it's no different than if Trump ignored being impeached, or if Trump ignored the transfer of power on the 20th.
shader
Footballguy
The Amendment states: "Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President."
So aren't there 15 cabinet members? So they need Pence + 8, is that corrrect? I'd imagine with Chao leaving they still need 8.
So aren't there 15 cabinet members? So they need Pence + 8, is that corrrect? I'd imagine with Chao leaving they still need 8.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
There just simply isn't enough time or support to get this done. Trump has isolated himself and is on an island. Just keep the nuclear codes away from him and let the clock run out.
Then for the inauguration, don't invite him to participate and hold the event somewhere that is secure and cannot be interrupted--like a military base or heck, even do it virtually. .
Then for the inauguration, don't invite him to participate and hold the event somewhere that is secure and cannot be interrupted--like a military base or heck, even do it virtually. .
whoknew
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I think it falls pretty squarely into the political question doctrine. Just like impeachment.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
Couldn't agree more. The 25th I've always understood to be for some sort of incapacity due to medical condition. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe that narrow reason is how it originated.
beef
Footballguy
No 25th. No impeachment. Just take the nuke-ball away and put trump on AF1 and send him to Mar-a-Lago to go golfing the next 13 days. If he's truly guilty of committing crimes his time in court is coming. Get him then. Him and his supporters revolution attempt was a total disaster and 4 of his disciples died for their delusional cause. Let that be the end of it.
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Courtjester
The Town Drunk
Well then create a fake suitcase with a Simon in it.
"Yes Mr President, Red and Green are Russian. Blue and Green are China"
That would keep him busy for a bit.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Taking the nuke-ball away from him without using the 25th Amendment would be an honest-to-god coup -- something we should be trying to avoid, IMO, when there are better options available.
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Sea Duck
Footballguy
Sea Duck
Footballguy
This is why I'm so curious about the National Guard thing. If Pence unilaterally called in the National Guard, isn't that coup-adjacent?
I suspect he had Trump's okay to call them in on Trump's behalf (maybe under threat of using the 25th).
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Maggie Haberman tweeted last night that Trump eventually relented on the National Guard thing, so that mystery is at least solved.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Yeah, we shouldn't get into the habit of ignoring the President that way. There are constitutional ways to deal with it. The other elected officials need the spine to do it.
dgreen
Footballguy
It took an angry mob breaking into the Capitol to get SOME of them to have the spine to simply remove their objections to the election certification. I can't imagine what it would take to move them to have the spine to remove him from office.
beef
Footballguy
Yeah, I get it now and how wrong that would be. Thanks gents.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
On some level part of me is proud of our political system at the moment. We didn't devolve. The system held, and the work of the people went on. Strong countries can deal with this. Democracies where all people, no matter their position, have a voice will deal with this from time to time.
And for now, we held. We have bumps and bruises. We have scars. But our founders never said this was going to be easy. In fact, they said the exact opposite.
Doesn't mean any fight is over. But it does mean the fight is worth having. Its just sad we had it this way, because of this coward that occupies our highest office. But we are better than him.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I was joking a bit, but not really at your expense.
The 25th Amendment works fine in the Woodrow Wilson situation where a President is incapacitated for the long term. It doesn’t really work here.
And impeachment/removal is hard in a short turnaround. I’m not sure that in some situations (imagine a distraught Trump looking to bomb Iran) that a quiet little short-term coup isn’t the best way to handle it.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
The point of invoking the 25th Amendment is that Trump can do way more crazy stuff if it's not invoked than if it is.
Death Bytes
Footballguy
On Jan 5th, it was a stretch. All his fraud talk was just hot air.
On Jan 6th, that changed. When he broke the oath of office, the stretch disappeared and it became real.
It's not a matter of if there will be another act of sedition by him and his supporters, but when.
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tri-man 47
Footballguy
This is my leaning. With less than two weeks remaining, try not to stir the pot and let him drift away. I'm almost more worried about his base of supporters, both in terms of what they might do now if current action is taken or the longer term ramifications from any late attempt to dethrone their dear leader ...I worry such action would create a simmering desire for payback over the months and years ahead. As it is, and as I've said, I believe Trump's political goose is cooked. He'll never get enough broad-based voter support or sufficient party leadership endorsement to make any headway (and recall that he'll be 78 years old for the 2024 election). His words of sedition have forever changed the lens through which his blustery rants will be viewed, and as a former, disgraced president, mainstream media can more easily downplay or ignore him.
It's like the children of Robin Williams' Peter Banning say to him in Hook -
Maggie: Daddy, let's go home, please? He's just a mean old man without a mommy.
Jack: Yeah, dad, let's go. He can't hurt us anymore.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Impeachment is only hard because we're making it hard. The House should have thrown together articles of impeachment on Thursday and the Senate should have convicted on Friday. As you noted above, impeachment is a political act, not a criminal trial. There's no need for hearings, witnesses, long soliloquies, or anything else when it's plainly clear to everyone that this president needs to be removed from office. I think it's low-key scandalous that the House took the weekend off to watch the wildcard games instead of addressing open insurrection led by a sitting president (!).
Also, I don't like living in a world where we openly debate whether maybe a coup is our best bet. You may be right -- it just sucks that this is where we are.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Doesn’t seem clear to enough Republican Senators to get him removed/disqualified. I’m sure there would be more urgency if she thought she had the votes
Democrats don’t have the power to remove him from office they don’t even have the power to schedule the trial (which McConnell has indicated would take place on the 19th at the earliest ).
Once we didn’t have Pence, the Cabinet, Pelosi, and McConnell all standing together to call for removal on the 7th, this all became kind of academic.
So hard to tell what the political calculus might look like if/when this gets to the senate, but Kasie Hunt was reporting this morning that she thinks - today - there are enough Republican votes to convict.
Given that a trial would not be until Biden's term, its hard to say if the anger of the moment will still exist then.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I’d say that Murkiwski, Sasse, and maybe Toomey have given us enough public indication they would convict. Romney indicated on the 7th he’d rather ride it out through the inauguration, but maybe assume he’d convict as well.
But even if we assume they have the votes, they certainly don’t have Republican buy-in to fast track a vote so that it protects the country before Biden takes office. Which was my point. The Constitutional provisions work fine in the world of theory, where our constitutional design has always really shined. But not in the real world where partisanship exists.
But even if we assume they have the votes, they certainly don’t have Republican buy-in to fast track a vote so that it protects the country before Biden takes office. Which was my point. The Constitutional provisions work fine in the world of theory, where our constitutional design has always really shined. But not in the real world where partisanship exists.
Death Bytes
Footballguy
Honestly, we could have two members of congress, I mean literally two people making up the entirety of congress, and you might see a slight difference in what comes out of congress.
Yeah - McConnell already said - the absolute earliest the Senate could take up an impeachment is 1-hour after Biden takes the oath of office. More likely is 25 hours after the oath.
But, I think it is still important to move ahead for a variety of reasons. First, you have to address the conduct - you can't simply sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. Second, and this could appeal to some Republicans, you ban Trump from holding Federal office again. You also take away the perks of being an ex-President - pension, security - ability to use tax payer money to fund your businesses.
Trump has the money to pay for his own security.
But, maybe most important - you can't move on, until there is a reckoning/accounting of how badly it all went on January 6. Pretending it never happened is the worst thing we can do as a country.
prefontaine
Footballguy
If removal can't be achieved, then there should probably be a pause anyway. There should absolutely be a reckoning. But it shouldn't be emotionally fueled. Examine everything in the cold light of day.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Who’s starting the Section 3 of the 14th Amendment thread?
beef
Footballguy
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JAA
Footballguy
JAA
Footballguy
You need to send a message that actions have consequences.
The reason you send these messages is so that people understand what happens when they travel down this road. It must be clear to everyone by now that folks across the board truly didn’t believe there would be any consequences for their actions.
The reason you send these messages is so that people understand what happens when they travel down this road. It must be clear to everyone by now that folks across the board truly didn’t believe there would be any consequences for their actions.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Bumping this because it's become relevant again.
