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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dr. Awesome
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
I think you fall into his trap when you turn what he says into a specific policy position.
packersfan
Footballguy
Yup. I love the NFL but when they fail at something they fail bigly. There are no minor missteps. It's always glaring and enormous failures.
Like this one.
All the owners did yesterday was add more fuel to the upcoming labor war unnecessarily.
randall146
Footballguy
Tim - If he's trying to convey a certain idea to his followers, it's either 1) stating a position or 3) pretending to state a position
packersfan
Footballguy
True, it's not like he ran on a promise to get rid of people his base doesn't like.
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
squistion
Footballguy
I wasn't saying he was going to turn it into a specific policy position, but that it what he meant which is pretty obvious to many people if you check the reaction on social media.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
All I’m saying is that he’s trolling. It’s like when Hell Toupee writes “Bad Hombres” to get a rise out of squistion. Trump says something completely outrageous, Archie Bunker style, to piss us off- except he’s not really saying anything. “They don’t belong here” is a meaningless statement.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
When people say in the pet peeve thread that certain people need to be throat punched do you actually think they mean line em up and throat punch them?
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
I don't have a problem with the new policy, but I think it shows that the owners were just paying lip service to the players' request to come up with a program to address the issues that Kaepernick was concerned about in the first place.
whoknew
Footballguy
I took it to mean if you don't like what's happening in America, or in this case the new NFL policy regarding America, there is always the option to leave. Kind of like a bunch of these people threatened to do if Trump got elected, before he got elected.
"Deportation" is the obvious jump to knee jerk OMG OUTRAGE reaction we've all come to expect from them.
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Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Haven't seen it no. I have no problem with people protesting, I just think protesting during the anthem is a terrible idea. Like RW said above, protesting at the police station where this happened makes perfect sense.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
The NFL doesn't want the side show because they get paid millions by the military as a sponsor. Like any business, they don't like employees crapping on their sponsors. There are way more effective ways to protest police brutality and way more effective ways to get the support of the NFL than making it about Trump, the military, and the anthem/flag.
squistion
Footballguy
No there aren't, as proven by how effective this protest has been in generating media and public interest as compared to efforts before this to call attention to the issue of LEO shootings of black men.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
What has the protest accomplished other than becoming a pissing contest with Donald Trump?
Apple Jack
Footballguy
It's not even a lot of money in the big picture. Athletes weren't even on the field for the anthem prior to a few years ago when the military starting to pay for this pregame nonsense and insisted on them being out there. We continue to be surrounded by #######s.
I'm not sure. I tend to look at things that have worked in the past. There are certainly other factors in play, but it seems to me the NBA policy of allowing players to express their positions in pregame with slogans on shirts and such and then requiring the players to stand for the anthem has worked pretty well. But that's just my observation from someone who admittedly doesn't follow the NBA closely.
How about you @Ruffrodys05 ?
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squistion
Footballguy
Greater awareness of the issues Black Lives Matter first raised.
And Kaepernick was named by Time Magazine as one of the most influential people in the world in 2017, so it is perceived in some quarters that he and the other players actually accomplished something. Arguably he has become one of the most, if not the most talked-about sports figure in recent history. Would he have received 1/100th of that degree of interest if he had used some other venue to protest, like a speaking tour or holding press conferences? Perhaps, but I doubt it.
And seriously, how much attention would you or anyone else have paid to this if the players protesting had done it at some police station instead of on national television? Would anyone be talking about that on this forum? Maybe, but I doubt that too.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Most people aren't talking about police brutality. They are talking about Trump and the anthem. I would actually argue that the protest has caused less awareness nationally as you rarely hear police brutality mentioned when talking about this issue.
packersfan
Footballguy
Few people gave two chits about the kneeling until Trump made it an issue for his culture war.
packersfan
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
packersfan
Footballguy
Sure there's a cause and effect. I guess black players had a problem being called sons of b*****s by the President of the United States.
Go figure.
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
You're proving my point. This is about Trump not about police brutality. The original issue isn't getting the awareness Squistion claims
Shula-holic
Footballguy
I get your point to this and don't disagree with the concept of it and the points raised. I'm not saying the reactions of fans to various forms of "disrespect" to the anthem from others is right or wrong. We all have our opinions on where the line should be, and in what cases something is or is not disrespectful. My point originally was along those lines, and if you take the prior statement to be true, then why would anyone want their business intermingled in such a political issue? As a business owner there is no way to win if you do, because a significant percentage of your customers are going to become angry for any stance you take. The owners likely have a percentage of members who actually agree with some of the points of the protests, but they want their business extricated from this as soon as possible.TobiasFunke said:
Take Jed York and the 49ers. I think we can all agree that of the NFL markets that San Francisco would be the most liberal. I saw him being praised in this thread yesterday for some of his statements. Keep in mind though, he didn't vote against this policy. He is trying to please both sides even in the most liberal market by abstaining. He can claim he didn't back this policy, while still not offending anyone on the other side of this issue by voting against it. To me, he is doing what's right for business no matter if he were totally with the protests or totally against them.
There are some people trying to associate a political right or wrong with what the owners are doing here and I'm saying that just isn't part of it for them and I don't believe it should be. You can't run a business that relies on a broad spectrum of customers that way When there are as many people as there are stating that teams should take some kind of politically activist or progressive role I think that's being unrealistic as to the steps you must take running any kind of business enterprise. Any kind of political movement or stance is never the responsibility of a business, regardless of whether ownership is liberal or conservative. From a financial standpoint, it would be hugely detrimental.
packersfan
Footballguy
I agree it's been muddied. Trump has done a lot of that himself by turning this into a flag/anthem/military issue when that isn't what it's about at all. The NFL has now confirmed Trump's bias instead of standing behind its players and making a unified statement about what these protests are actually about.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I agree Trump muddled up the protest. People should be ignoring Trump's nonsense about standing vs kneeling. Those up in arms are just giving him the attention he wants and taking it away from the issue. That's why I said earlier in the thread there are way more effective means to protest police brutality than using the flag/anthem to do so.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Sure, all of this is true. But the point of my post was that the market forces/fan sentiments to which they are responding are hypocritical nonsense. That's why I said "setting aside the owners' role here" before pointing out some of the many ways in which a lot of the fans who claim the kneeling bothers them are hypocrites.
packersfan
Footballguy
Unfortunately, the NFL chose not to.
I personally don't know if there are better ways to protest in this instance. There probably are some ideas that would result with far less controversy for certain. I am, however, in favor of non-violent forms of protests when the cause is justified. This cause is very much justified in my opinion so I have no issues with players who want to kneel. I'm not offended by it or bothered by it in the least.
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knowledge dropper
Footballguy
How does this story fit in The Kaepernick narrative?
http://time.com/5288986/maryland-teens-kill-cop-amy-caprio/
http://time.com/5288986/maryland-teens-kill-cop-amy-caprio/
Shula-holic
Footballguy
packersfan
Footballguy
Based on the info we got from their meeting with NFL players they care a whole lot about what he says. They came across as frightened silly by him, even the ones who claimed to despise him.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
They don't want to be in the middle of this issue. This was going to happen IMO with or without President Trump ever bringing it up at that Luther Strange rally. People were already talking about it before then and that's when Trump seized on it politically. All Trump did was amplify the division over it and make it more urgent to deal with and under more of a spotlight. They have nothing to be frightened of other than the bottom line, and that's logical.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
It doesn't fit into Kaepernick's narrative, but it does fit into the narrative that there are still a lot of ignorant people out there who just want to dismiss Kaepernick's cause by bringing up unrelated topics.
packersfan
Footballguy
Gachi
Footballguy
Do you want a cookie for googling a story about a cop getting killed?
Im not sure what your point is..?
Shula-holic
Footballguy
Really? That happened on Sep 22, 2017. What date was all the discussion about Kaepernick and him not being signed due to his kneeling started?
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
packersfan
Footballguy
The kneeling issue was primarily about Kaepernick. Trump made it about his culture war. Prior to that, how many teams were making decisions about how players should conduct themselves during the anthem? Trump turned a relative non-issue that was primarily about one person into a league-wide condemnation of the league, owners and specifically the players. Once Trump made it an issue, his supporters lapped it up and all of a sudden there was all kinds of outrage that never existed before.
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Shula-holic
Footballguy
From what we were discussing, all 32 teams were already making those decisions before President Trump made that speech. Supposedly Kaepernick was unsigned because of his protests and the impact that would have on the revenues of any team that would have signed him. There were other players kneeling at the time and there was already a controversy the league was going to have to deal with. Yes, when President Trump used it at a rally it morphed into a stance against him when many more players joined the following week. But it's simply false to say it wasn't being talked about and wasn't an issue for owners prior to this. You can go back and read articles from the first couple weeks of the 2017 NFL season where these very things are being discussed before that campaign rally. Besides, if it weren't already a sensitive issue, Trump would never have picked that issue to drive a wedge into. Trump didn't create the issue, he just chose the controversy to score politically.
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Yeah, didn't think so. I'll just chalk it up to you having a bad day. I mean you think Clapper announced the election as illegitimate and no one is listening to you.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I actually think the bold is pretty inaccurate unless you are describing how NFL players reacted to trump. There were tons of people upset with Colin Kaepernick kneeling. You can find all sorts of articles from 2016 discussing it. He was booed regularly. He was literally booed for all 34 plays he was on the field in the following preseason game in San Diego. Buffalo, Miami, and Chicago all had all sorts of strong anti-kaep sentiment. Tons of which crossed the line. Every place he played had a large contingent of boo birds.
Sweet J
Footballguy
you didn't ask me, but I'll give you my perspective, Joe.
Ever since I was about 10-12 years old, I've always felt uncomfortable when the national anthem was played. It's hard to explain why; it just didn't feel right. Maybe it was the blind allegiance. Or participation in what felt like "Nationalism" at the same time (early 80s) where we were all told that Nationalism coming out of the Soviet Union was a danger to the civilized world. If it was wrong for them, wasn't it also wrong for us?
Also, I don't want to be told when and how to show my patriotism. I love many parts of this country. Because of this country, my mother -- raped and impregnated at 21. Lied to and impregnated at 24. Drug user (along with various uncles and aunts) -- was given food for her and her children to eat, health care to survive, a stipend to live on (welfare), and eventually a free college education. She went on to be a school teacher for 10 years, and although retired from that, still owns a (somewhat) successful landscaping business and has been paying taxes for the past 25 years. Her kids are now lawyers and college professors. What a country! I am thankful for it every day (or I should be, if I remember to be).
But I STILL don't want to be told when and how to celebrate my appreciation. And I probably would feel even more strongly about it if I was a role model on the field of play.
So - how would I handle it? If I was the commissioner, I'd make it clear that standing for the national anthem was 100% optional. At the VERY least, I'd have extensive conversations with the Players Association -- my employees! -- about this issue, and actually listen to them. I'd make the owners vote me out if they wanted to put their pocketbooks over my conviction (If I'm the NFL Commish, I'm probably rich anyway).
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