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USA Shootings (6 Viewers)

KCitons said:
How long do you think it will take before a majority of the cars are driverless? Electric cars were a great way to save on gas and save the environment. But EV's only make up a very small percentage of autos on the road. With more technology, comes higher costs. People are holding on to older cars a lot longer. 
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2030 was my first thought and a quick google confirmed that’s about right. 

 
KCitons said:
Because I think it would be more effective to correct the problem with the person instead of taking away ever tool that they could use to carry out violent acts. 

I had no idea you could make a bomb out of a pressure cooker until the Boston bombing. I haven't looked, but I would venture to guess that there are dozens of other ways that someone could carry out horrible acts. I get the let's try banning guns and see what happens. Of course it would reduce mass shooting (eventually). But what do you do when those same people start using pressure cookers. Do you ban those as well. In the end all you did was take guns and pressure cookers away from law abiding citizens. You're still left with the violent person. 
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Again, mental health solutions are necessary in addition to gun control measures. It makes zero sense to treat the issue as an either/or situation. And there is no rational reason that law abiding citizens need access to assault weapons. Freedom of speech is not an absolute freedom if it is abused. The same should hold for the 2nd amendment. Society has rights that need to be balanced with an individual's rights.

 
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cap'n grunge said:
Again, mental health solutions are necessary in addition to gun control measures. It makes zero sense to treat the issue as an either/or situation. And there is no rational reason that law abiding citizens need access to assault weapons. Freedom of speech is not an absolute freedomif it is abused. The same should hold for the 2nd amendment. Society has rights that need to be balanced with an individual rights.
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I'm not disagreeing with you. But, I think there are some on your side that are not happy with only the bolded. Yesterdays comments prove that. 

 
KCitons said:
I don't think we can get it to zero. The penalties are getting slightly tougher, but we still have people with multiple dui's. I think most people know the potential dangers of driving drunk. 

My point is, what education have done to address gun violence? And before someone says, we don't need to have teachers spending time educating kids on guns, have you ever seen a tv or magazine commercial discussing gun violence? If we had a problem with DUI's and we didn't move to ban alcohol, but instead we educated and made things safer, why can't we take a similar approach to gun violence.

For the record, I feel that we don't do enough to address the underlying problems related to why someone drinks and drives. We punish the person, but we don't force them to correct their alcohol problems. Which is why we have repeat offenders. The same could be said for removing guns from violent people, the violent person still remains. 
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I'm not sure its relevant to our discussion, but I disagree we couldn't get it to 0. In most states, its still legal to drive with a blood alcohol below 0.08. We could move that down to 0. We could require all cars be self driving. There are lots of things that could be done.

I don't know why anyone would be against gun safety education. What people are against is gun safety education without taking other measures. Which is what it seems like you are suggesting. 

As for the underlying cause of mass shootings in the United States - well that's almost certainly the proliferation of guns. (I'm sure that article has been posted multiple times in this thread)

 
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whoknew said:
I'm not sure its relevant to our discussion, but I disagree we couldn't get it to 0. In most states, its still legal to drive with a blood alcohol below 0.08. We could move that down to 0. We could require all cars be self driving. There are lots of things that could be done.

I don't know why anyone would be against gun safety education. What people are against is gun safety education without taking other measures. Which is what it seems like you are suggesting. 

As for the underlying cause of mass shootings in the United States - well that's almost certainly the proliferation of guns. (I'm sure that article has been posted multiple times in this thread)
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I didn't say anyone was against gun safety education. What I'm saying is that there is none. At least in the same way we have public service announcements around drunk driving.

 
KCitons said:
12 years? 

We aren't forcing people to own driverless cars. Why do you think people will want to spend extra for something they don't think they will need?
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It will be the norm. People will have them in 2025 but not most. Kind of like smartphones in 2010. 

Nvda would be a great stock to buy and hold in my opinion. 

 
NREC34 said:
It will be the norm. People will have them in 2025 but not most. Kind of like smartphones in 2010. 

Nvda would be a great stock to buy and hold in my opinion. 
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Will it be required that everyone own a self driving car?

I look forward to all the 5-10 year old used cars that will flood the market. And with the supply and demand being in my favor, I can finally own a luxury automobile. 

 
KCitons said:
Will it be required that everyone own a self driving car?

I look forward to all the 5-10 year old used cars that will flood the market. And with the supply and demand being in my favor, I can finally own a luxury automobile. 
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I doubt it. Some will not. I’m sure a few are still using flip phones in 2018 too. 

 
Stealthycat said:
I agree 100%

We need better security at school, something Democrats absolutely will not discuss because it might make a student feel bad.
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I'm a Democrat and I'm for security at school. After a few months they will just be part of the school, not even noticed most of the time.

 
adonis said:
When my kids are in the car, I buckle them up.  I want other drivers on the road to be safe, and not drunk.  I put them in carseats, although I haven't been in a wreck in decades.

When I feed my kids, I do my best to give them food that's good for them that is also safe.  I know of no one whose kids have died from eating bad food, although some are on a path to unhealthiness.

When I buy clothes for my kids, I try to make sure that I'm doing this responsibly and not buying things that could potentially cause harm to them. you do, many people do not

When my kids are outside, I watch them to make sure nothing bad happens.  What are the odds of something bad happening to them? you do, many people do not

When my kids are in the parking lot or near a street, I am with them to steer them away from trouble.  I don't personally know anyone who was hit in a parking lot, but that wont' stop me from being aware and concerned. you do, many people do not

None of those situations are high probability situations for them being harmed, yet as a parent I'm interested in reducing the chances that my kids will suffer harm. you do, many people do not

So why, again, are you trying to talk me out of caring that across America, school children are dying when other folks bring guns into their school, when in every other area of my kids life I'm doing my best to reduce their risk of death? 

You suggest I shouldn't care about school murders because heart disease is a bigger killer of americans of all ages?

Have you completely and utterly lost perspective?  I'm not saying it's my primary concern as a parent, but it's certainly a concern.
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I don't think its that the anti-gun left doesn't care Adonis - in fact its very discouraging that they think the pro-gun doesn't care and you can see that in the posts here, can't you ?

That link was in response to the illusion that schools are just a war zone, they're not. They have a lot of problems, this epidemic of people wanting to kill other people needs addressed absolutely. But your kid is safe in school when you look at the overall picture.

on topic, we both want safe schools - right? My problem with the left (not necessarily you) is that they want to target 100 million legal law abiding gun owners and take certain kinds of guns from them. They are not wanting to address school security, these kids doing these killings etc. some will talk about mental health, but most just want to ban ban ban

as I have clearly shown, guns have not changed ......... fewer homes have guns, kids don't take guns to school now, or knives .......... and school shootings have soared in the past 10 years

that's just the opposite of the thought process of making guns less available isn't it ?

the problem is people have changed ..... that's the problem, address that and nobody has to lose any Rights at all. Focus only on banning a type of gun and I 100% promise you these shooters will just find other ways to kill and all that's accomplished is that law abiding people have been impacted

 
KCitons said:
I don't think we can get it to zero. The penalties are getting slightly tougher, but we still have people with multiple dui's. I think most people know the potential dangers of driving drunk. 

My point is, what education have done to address gun violence? And before someone says, we don't need to have teachers spending time educating kids on guns, have you ever seen a tv or magazine commercial discussing gun violence? If we had a problem with DUI's and we didn't move to ban alcohol, but instead we educated and made things safer, why can't we take a similar approach to gun violence.

For the record, I feel that we don't do enough to address the underlying problems related to why someone drinks and drives. We punish the person, but we don't force them to correct their alcohol problems. Which is why we have repeat offenders. The same could be said for removing guns from violent people, the violent person still remains. 
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Is there anyone here that is against better education on gun violence? I don’t understand why you’re bringing that up.

We absolutely do things to curb DUI repeat offenders. Breathilizers in cars, required AA meetings, etc. 

There is work to be done in this regard still though. We can improve.  Just like we can curb the number of gun deaths with reasonable regulation.

 
Snorkelson said:
Yep, and people died. Maybe we should limit access to guns.
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this 17 was limited and bound by laws

he didn't have access to an AR15, bump stocks, age limit he laughed at, school security he got around .................... would you have every American give up there aemi-auto hunting shotguns?

seriously ?

 
cap'n grunge said:
Why is it a one thing or the other solution? We obviously have a huge mental health issue going on that needs to be addressed. We have poor security at our schools  that needs to be addressed. And we have easy access to the biggest killing machines that can easily cause mass tragedy that needs to be addressed. 

Any sober analysis of the situation shows you the only path to rolling back the increasing levels of gun violence needs to be a multi pronged approach. Are you going to eliminate all gun violence? No, unfortunately that's pretty much impossible. But you can help limit the potential of mass tragedy with common sense gun control, starting with banning assault weapons, required background checks, etc. Anyone standing in the way of these measures should be ashamed of themselves. Organizations like the NRA who claim only to care about your rights really only care about enriching themselves and the gun manufacturers. They have blood on their hands. It's simply not right and it should be called out as such.
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it isn't

we have common sense gun laws, right now

yes to mental health, yes to security at school !! the left needs to get behind this big time

what is your thinking when you know that fewer homes have guns now than in the past?  kids don't take guns or knives to school like they use to. All these things should mean FEWER instance right ?

instead, massive spike in school shootings

the guns have not changed, the people have

 
Snorkelson said:
You’re right. I’ve been for reasonable gun reform, but some kid with a shotgun and handgun can still do a lot of damage. No more guns? License to own guns, and only for hunting? Whatever gun reform may come through, I don’t care if it goes too far now if it does something. If the first thing I could vote on repealed gun rights entirely I’d vote yes at this point. Better than doing nothing and having more dead kids.
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would you vote for every student searched as they walk into school in the morning, single entrance to all schools

better than doing nothing right, and it would stop 100% of shooters from getting their guns into schools. I don't care if that's going to far, do you ? Now, I don't go to school, that wouldn't impact me any but it would stop 100% of school shootings

would you go for that ? Its going to infringe on people's rights but we're talking about saving kids lives here, isn't it worth it ?

 
Stealthycat said:
We need better security at school, something Democrats absolutely will not discuss because it might make a student feel bad.
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Is there any way we can persuade you to reduce, perhaps eliminate, the incredibly high amount of demonstrably false statements you make about large groups of people?  Like asking you to pause for 30 seconds and re-read your post to yourself and asking, "is that really true about that many people?  How would I support that statement if asked?" before clicking "Submit Reply"?  It's fatiguing and does nothing to further discussion.

 
Juxtatarot said:
Is there anyone here that is against better education on gun violence? I don’t understand why you’re bringing that up.

We absolutely do things to curb DUI repeat offenders. Breathilizers in cars, required AA meetings, etc. 

There is work to be done in this regard still though. We can improve.  Just like we can curb the number of gun deaths with reasonable regulation.
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When alcohol related deaths were much higher years ago, did anyone say "we should ban alcohol"? No, they looked at ways to change laws, educate people and make automobiles safer. Now that we have a high number of mass shootings, the rhetoric is to ban guns. 

Not many people are looking at solutions other than banning guns. 

At least in our state, there is no required AA meetings. 

 
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Bruce Dickinson said:
Is there any way we can persuade you to reduce, perhaps eliminate, the incredibly high amount of demonstrably false statements you make about large groups of people?  Like asking you to pause for 30 seconds and re-read your post to yourself and asking, "is that really true about that many people?  How would I support that statement if asked?" before clicking "Submit Reply"?  It's fatiguing and does nothing to further discussion
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did you read where the solution to guns being used wrong is voting Democrat ?

did you try to persuade that poster his false statements ?

 
KCitons said:
When alcohol related deaths were much higher years ago, did anyone say "we should ban alcohol"?
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no, they focused on the problem, the people wanting to drink and drive, not the 99.9% of legal law abiding people who didn't

they teach DUI safety in schools, its plastered everywhere, really stiff penalties for DUI too

they did common sense alcohol/DUI laws without shackling society - the acceptable death's from DUI's every year is around 12-13,000

that's the price society pays for having alcohol and auto's

 
Stealthycat said:
I don't think its that the anti-gun left doesn't care Adonis - in fact its very discouraging that they think the pro-gun doesn't care and you can see that in the posts here, can't you ?

That link was in response to the illusion that schools are just a war zone, they're not. They have a lot of problems, this epidemic of people wanting to kill other people needs addressed absolutely. But your kid is safe in school when you look at the overall picture.

on topic, we both want safe schools - right? My problem with the left (not necessarily you) is that they want to target 100 million legal law abiding gun owners and take certain kinds of guns from them. They are not wanting to address school security, these kids doing these killings etc. some will talk about mental health, but most just want to ban ban ban

as I have clearly shown, guns have not changed ......... fewer homes have guns, kids don't take guns to school now, or knives .......... and school shootings have soared in the past 10 years

that's just the opposite of the thought process of making guns less available isn't it ?

the problem is people have changed ..... that's the problem, address that and nobody has to lose any Rights at all. Focus only on banning a type of gun and I 100% promise you these shooters will just find other ways to kill and all that's accomplished is that law abiding people have been impacted
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The problem is, the world changes, and as it changes we have to re-evaluate what makes sense for our current society.  Things that never were problems before, become huge problems as societies change.  Things there were huge problems become non-existent.  We have to be willing to adapt with the waxing and waning of threats if we're going to survive as a society.

There are some features to our country that are core to our being.  Freedom of speech.  Freedom of/from religion.  Individual rights.  Representative democracy.  Separation of powers.  Equality under the law.  Checks and balances.  The list goes on.

The right to bear arms isn't central to the fabric of our country, in my opinion, anymore than the 21st amendment was central to who we are.

Our goal, in my opinion, as a society is that we should protect the least among us, and the most vulnerable.  Currently, our kids are being massacred in schools and almost nothing is being done to stop it.

If, however, terrorists were coming in and doing EXACTLY the same thing...going into our school, with guns, and killing the exact same number of kids, there would be reaction the likes of which we can't imagine.  But because it's white kids killing other kids, with guns obtained in the USA for seemingly non-political goals - well golly, I guess that's just the price of living in our great country.  

But again, replace these white kids shooting up schools with a muslim terrorist bent on punishing us for, say, moving the embassy...and all hell will break loose.  Why? 

Why are we so willing to act in the face of a foreign threat but so unwilling to act in the face of domestic ones?  What were we, as a society, willing to undergo in the form of airport security in the face of a single terrorist attack?  How many millions of air travelers have been impacted due to that one event, while we've barely done a damned thing about repeated school shootings?

 
KCitons said:
When alcohol related deaths were much higher years ago, did anyone say "we should ban alcohol"? No, they looked at ways to change laws, educate people and make automobiles safer. Now that we have a high number of mass shootings, the rhetoric is to ban guns. 

Not many people are looking at solutions other than banning guns. 

At least in our state, there is no required AA meetings. 
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The increase in minimum drinking age from 18ish to 21 was done to decrease incidences of drunk driving. That was a ban.

 
Mile High said:
I'm a Democrat and I'm for security at school. After a few months they will just be part of the school, not even noticed most of the time.
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Like the three armed security guards at Santa Fe, or the armed officer at Parkland?  How many armed guards do we need at each school? 5?  20?

How about limiting guns like every other civilized nation that doesn’t have a school shooting problem?

 
Juxtatarot said:
The increase in minimum drinking age from 18ish to 21 was done to decrease incidences of drunk driving. That was a ban.
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Fair point. I'm ok with raising the legal age to buy a firearm and ammo to 21. Would that reduce mass shootings and suffice the anti gun crowd?

 
The gun lobby won’t allow us to come close to doing as much as we have for cars and DUIs.

Register all guns?  Hah

Testing required? Annual safety checks on every weapon? Tax and tagged every year? 

 
sho nuff said:
The gun lobby won’t allow us to come close to doing as much as we have for cars and DUIs.

Register all guns?  Hah

Testing required? Annual safety checks on every weapon? Tax and tagged every year? 
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I've asked this before and never received an answer. If there are 5 million NRA members and even half the population wants tougher gun laws, why is there not an anti-NRA lobby? It's seems that funding should be easy. 

Your questions about registration, taxes, testing and annual safety checks do not apply. I've pointed out the flaws with each of them already. Either some are not being done in all states, or they serve no purpose. 

 
KCitons said:
What are the other steps you propose? I apologize if you have posted already.
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I generally support the ideas I’ve seen about improved background checks, banning assault-type weapons (without getting technical about the definition), and improved education and training requirements. I also think local communities should have more of a right to impose some of their own laws. For example, a hand gun ban might make sense in a population dense area like Chicago but not in rural Montana.  Long-term I think biometrics should be legally required on newly purchased guns so only the owner and approved others can use it.

 
KCitons said:
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say taking away alcohol would go a long way towards reducing the number of DUI deaths. 

Why is one ban more important than the other to you?
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Because more teachers and students than active duty military personnel have been killed by gunfire this year.  

 
I'm telling you guys for the Scats of the world if it's coming down to schools vs guns, they will take guns. They will say schools aren't in the Constitution and that you can home school your kids anyway. This is the society they want, more guns less schools.

 
Juxtatarot said:
I generally support the ideas I’ve seen about improved background checks, banning assault-type weapons (without getting technical about the definition), and improved education and training requirements. I also think local communities should have more of a right to impose some of their own laws. For example, a hand gun ban might make sense in a population dense area like Chicago but not in rural Montana.  Long-term I think biometrics should be legally required on newly purchased guns so only the owner and approved others can use it.
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I can agree with most of this. If we are using biometrics on new guns, then why ban assault weapons?

 
KCitons said:
Is it important that we compare one death to another? Shouldn't we be working towards zero unnecessary deaths?
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Is a soldier’s death unnecessary? It is unfortunate.  It is a tragedy. But to my knowledge young men and women have sacrificed themselves for our country out of necessity since it was founded. 

 
BigSteelThrill said:
Working much harder towards zero Intentional deaths.

Accidental are far different.  Accidents happen and are accepted as such.
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I think this it the key point we differ on. I don't see dui deaths as accidental. 

I do understand your stance on intentional deaths. 

 
Is there a number of kids who die in school shootings that will change anyones mind on the other side of the gun control issue?

10% of all children in school killed? 1%? 50%?

Is there a point at which you will say "yeah, that's a big enough problem where I'll change my stance on guns"?

 
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