Gr00vus
Footballguy
They need to master controlling narratives and news cycles the way the Republicans have, not kick effective public servants out because they fail at propaganda.
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The Nancy Pelosi thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
The Democrat running for Congress in my district is running an ad that says she needs to go. I thought that was strange coming from Team Blue but it might be a smart move given how much damage her persona has taken in recent years.
toshiba
Footballguy
True, but that is a bigger issue. Not sure how to effectively counter the hatred the GOP leadership spews at women and minorities while it motivates so much of their turnout (see the article @timschochet posted yesterday https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/16/17980820/trump-obama-2016-race-racism-class-economy-2018-midterm )
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I wish I was 25 years old with a full head of hair. Deal with the things you can change, accept and mitigate those you can't.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Well this is another thing that concerns me- that right after the Democrats win the House, there's going to be a fight between the establishment and progressive wings for control. I suppose it's unavoidable, but it sure isn't good optics.
I suggest a compromise: let Pelosi be the speaker with the understanding that she will step down after 2020. She is needed to right the ship; then they can get somebody new. I have no argument that somebody new is needed soon.
toshiba
Footballguy
Exactly my point, which was one of the first things I said in this thread was Polosi must go.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure giving in to that hatred isn't an effective counter. You're never going to appeal to (or change) those people. What you need to do is motivate everyone else to not be that way and make it generally unacceptable to behave that way.
I agree with a lot of your points here, I'm just not convinced it is the most effective option. I also think the Democrats need more youth in their leadership either way.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Just to focus on this piece of your quote. This is correct as stated, but it would be inaccurate to state that Nancy Pelosi does not support single payer. But that is still her fault.
- “I was carrying around single-payer signs probably before you were born, so I, you know, I understand that aspiration.”link (Thats Pelosi speaking, but I'm guessing that could also be me for some of you.)
I'm a shoot for the stars kind of guy that would much rather see the democratic leadership propose and push for grand visions. I was heavily criticized on these boards in 2009 and 2010 for suggesting that democrats were letting a good opportunity to go to waste as they should have pursued single payer in one for or another, a guaranteed income, and a consumption tax to replace other taxes rather than trying to fix an old Heritage Foundation health package and some token tax cuts called stimulus. So I'm with you in saying that Pelosi (and others) should be constantly embracing the big ideas publically even if she (they) also know that the path is going to rough. I think a common mistake is that we forget that the "incrementalist" usually have the same "end goals" as us impatient folk, but that mistake is reinforced by their own lack of grand vision rhetoric.
So I think it is accurate to argue that Pelosi hasn't supported specific single payer legislation, but I don't think that it follows that she doesn't support single payer. But it is her fault (and that of many of democrats) if that is the impression she leaves. And it is her fault on why she loses guys like @NCCommish and maybe you.
(Rereading this and it doesn't really flow well. I keep making it worse trying to edit so I'll quit. Hopefully some of the thoughts come through properly.)
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
I don't follow - Pelosi must go because that's what Republicans want? That's your mitigation strategy?
The Commish
Footballguy
"leading" the Democrats at this point could be done by a monkey. It should be a lay up for anyone in the position. Things are so divided now, it's about as cruise control of a job as you can get...especially if they have only control of the house. There isn't some special quality necessary in today's climate that only Pelosi has. It's time to move on and get some youth in those positions when they are still "training wheel" like.
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toshiba
Footballguy
toshiba
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
This is woefully naive. Sure, Democrats are united against Trump, but that doesn't mean keeping everyone on board at the margins is an easy task. You only have to look at this board to see how some liberals are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face if they don't get their way.
Corraling all the votes in your majority/minority is a skill. I'm open to the idea that Nancy's external public perception negatives outweigh her ability to keep the Democratic caucus united. I think Pelosi critics are overwhelmingly wrong, but after seeing how irrational hatred trumped policy expertise and leadership in Nov 2016, I'm willing to move on if another Democrat with experience and leadership ability takes over the role, if only for perception reasons.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
That's a major part of the context of the exchange between @Slapdash and me that you've interjected yourself into.
Regardless, in this thread, its not clear to me what your problem with Pelosi is other than:
Do you have other reasons you think she's not good at her job?
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ren hoek
Footballguy
Pelosi is completely bought and oversaw the Dems losing a gazillion seats to the worst GOP of all time. Another Israel-first neoliberal drenched in corporate cash. She's worth a hundred million dollars. This country doesn't need more out of touch millionaires. Get her out of there
toshiba
Footballguy
So when you say "This country doesn't need more out of touch millionaires." So Trump should go too?
Mike Damone
Footballguy
She is 78, I really wish we could find younger leaders
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I really couldn't disagree more with this. Leading Democrats is a very difficult job- like herding cats.
toshiba
Footballguy
I have mentioned her lack of popularity and I don't think she can do well in holding a majority. I would prefer to get a new speaker in there so when the Dems take the Presidency in 2020 we can hold a majority in 2022.
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Snorkelson
Footballguy
It’s like the lions. Dump Caldwell (Pelosi) and bring in new blood (Patricia) and we, as a country, might have a bit of a learning curve that we can’t afford. It would be nice to have that week 1 game back- can’t feel that way when it comes to running the country
The Commish
Footballguy
If you're referring to the divide within the party between progress and establishment, I'm sure this WAS true. There is plenty of evidence to show that this gap is closing because the people are demanding it. Look no further than Pelosi herself and her flip on single payer. Look at the "no nothings" taking down icons of the party. Tides are changing. It's no longer what it was when she was in control of the house before and I thank the people for pushing them in that direction.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Right. And the conversation I was having with @Slapdash was related to the lack of popularity. Where did that come from? Are there enough failures in actually doing her job as representative that lead to that, or is it mainly a result of an orchestrated character assassination by Republicans? Because if its the latter, getting rid of her isn't going to solve anything. That will just keep happening for her replacement, and their replacement, and their replacement, until Democrats figure out how to combat that effectively, while also probably costing you technically proficient public servants. And that was the nature of my response to you about propaganda - you may wish we didn't have to deal with it, but unless we do, we'll keep losing elections and public perception. That's not just a Nancy Pelosi problem.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't agree with this. I think it's NC Commish's fault, much as I like and respect him. His fault, and people like him.
Anytime you have a realist like Hillary or Pelosi making an argument that, in order to get things done, you have to work with the other side, NC Commish and people like him slam them. They don't want to work with the other side; they want to beat the other side and force their ideas on the other side. In this one aspect, there is little difference between the conservative base and the progressive base. Both bases believe that they will win IF ONLY THEY ARE GIVEN THE CHANCE.
But it's simply not true. We didn't get Medicare for all in 2009 because there weren't enough votes for it. We're sure as hell not going to get it in 2019, and we may not get it for years to come because there still aren't enough votes for it. Yes, the majority of Americans are now for it, but our political system doesn't operate based on simple majority rules. A lot of big money is opposed, and they're effective at stopping it, and they're not going away.
So in the meantime, we have two choices- we can push and push and push for it, and never get anything done in the meantime, or we can try to improve Obamacare and the system we have and lower current healthcare costs. Pelosi is for the second choice and I think it makes sense.
timschochet
Footballguy
What flip exactly?
Nancy Pelosi has never changed. Politically, she is very liberal. But her governing philosophy is: take what you can get. She was never opposed to single payer; she was opposed to wasting time fighting for single payer when it wasn't going to pass.
StCharlesDigger
Footballguy
when have democrats lowered health care costs or made any improvements in border security ? those are not democrat strong points
toshiba
Footballguy
I have a feeling the "lower health care costs" part of this discussion will devolve into one side saying that it saves money overall and the other side saying they pay more personally.
bueno
In a class by himself
Trump excluded, I always thought the Democrats were far better with propaganda than Republicans.
bueno
In a class by himself
bueno
In a class by himself
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I'd go with...
From 1980 to 2008, per capital national health expenditures grew faster than the Consumer Price Index (inflation). Starting in 2008, health spending growth slowed to a similar rate as inflation and remained relatively stable at about 3 percent growth per year. In 2014 and 2015, health spending began to grow more rapidly with the Affordable Care Act’s coverage expansion, but slowed once again in 2016.
toshiba
Footballguy
bueno
In a class by himself
My wife and I are paying a lot more, but we live in a rural area with limited (and generally poor) options (half the specialists my wife sees won't take her insurance) - this is in spite of me going on Medicare two years ago. Just for you, toshiba
Gr00vus
Footballguy
As an overall constituency you may be right. But in terms of top level leadership and donors, the Republicans are light years ahead of the Democrats. Obama was an anomaly. The Republicans conduct incredibly focused, coordinated and orchestrated propaganda campaigns from on high. The Democrats basically have a bunch of random grass roots level groups throwing dirty bombs around.
toshiba
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
This is more a thread about Democratic strategy and tactics in the coming months than it is about their philosophy of government.
bueno
In a class by himself
The Commish
Footballguy
She had no interest in backing Bernie's bill proposal for single payer and she didn't
timschochet
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
Pelosi and her failed brand of politics is how we got Trump. Oh well, time to double down!Best endorsement I could offer! ren hates her.
timschochet
Footballguy
Or- maybe we got Trump because too many Bernie supporters refused to vote for Hillary?
The Commish
Footballguy
I don't really care why she didn't support it. You asked what flip I was talking about. I told you. If her reason was "because it wouldn't pass" I'd assume she's still against it because it won't pass today either, yet that's not what she's saying. She says she supports it. That's for you to reconcile
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Whatever the reason is I am grateful for it and the country is better off because of it.
timschochet
Footballguy
Yes, your feelings on this are very well known around here. I'm not sure what your point is in repeating it in a thread devoted to Democratic strategy.
timschochet
Footballguy
I already reconciled it. She's for the idea of it, the way she was for the idea of it before. If in 2019 a bill is proposed to her, she won't pursue it.I don't really care why she didn't support it. You asked what flip I was talking about. I told you. If her reason was "because it wouldn't pass" I'd assume she's still against it because it won't pass today either, yet that's not what she's saying. She says she supports it. That's for you to reconcile
Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Second post and I haven't read another damn one.
HOW THE #### THE DEMOCRATS DONT DITCH THIS ABSOLUTELY TOXIC PERSON! Cripes.
She is a detriment to the brand, and Democrats are so flipping dumb, they don't realize this!
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