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Government Response To The Coronavirus (12 Viewers)

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Herb said:
While it's refreshing to see you venture out of the MAGA thread, I'd love to hear your actual views on some things, not just a rehash of the "Trump's awesome, suck it libs!" shtick that seems to be your primary position on pretty much everything.

Shall I start listing the things you believe that I find sad?
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I guess you read minds?

 
Amused to Death said:
Unsecured golf course, I might add. There's a reason Presidents play at Camp David or military bases - they're secure. But Trump has to use his own while he jacked up the rates and forces the Secret Service to stay at HIS resort.

Talk about scamming the taxpayers.

ETA: Obama played a total of 306 rounds of golf in 8 years mostly at Camp David and military bases. Trump has played 289 in 3 years - all on his own course where he makes money off the tax payers.
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Forcing Trump to play on one course for 8 years is like forcing Picasso to work with only one broken crayon.  

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Actually it sounds like the drug is being used more OUTSIDE of the U.S.

Doctors aren't using it because Trump hyped it, that's not how this works. They turn to drugs first when evaluating symptoms and pairing drugs that treat those symptoms. They then hone in on the drugs they're hearing from other doctors that are having the most success.
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Herein lies the conundrum, and one that you and others fail to explain...

This drug was not developed to treat Covid symptoms. And the drug is not successful in treating Covid. So how would they turn to it and hone in on its success?

 
Mr Anonymous said:
The only people in the medical community turning against it are the ones oddly using it in dangerous doses and when it's too late to be effective against Covid-19. And guess what, right now that would be the downside of every current treatment.
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I mean that’s just patently false.

Sometimes it’s just easier to admit you were wrong. Happens to the best of us.

 
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[scooter] said:
Guess you didn't get the memo. You can stop the cheerleading and the faux outrage now.
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I'm literally the first person here who said this and every other drug being used to treat CV19 are not miracle cures. I've said repeatedly these drugs are about buying time. Returning some to health and shortening hospital stays. There's nothing out there about this drug or any others that says it doesn't help with that. What it doesn't do very often is take a gravely ill patient and magically restore them to full health. But no current treatment does. The only people completely dismissing this drug are people holding it to an absurd standard that they're un-shockingly not holding other drugs to. 

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Sermo is a legit, well respected platform for doctors. This nonsense is getting ridiculous. The lengths people are going to try and discredit something simply because Trump talked it up is frightening. That's certainly not debunked. Doctors all over the world are using this drug (and others). And many of them are having success with their treatments of introduced in time, including hydroxychloroquine. That's an inescapable fact. Also an inescapable fact is that one side is weirdly obsessed with trying to discredit a drug that is helping people. It's worst sin is that it doesn't bring people back from death's door.
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What I've bolded in here is NOT inescapable fact.  It's not a fact at all.  The entire point that many, many people are attempting to make is that we don't know if anyone has had success with those treatments.  Literally, not one COVID recovery can specifically be attributed to HCO because we can't know if that person would have recovered without it.  That's why we perform peer-reviewed studies with control groups.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Well that's because it is...

https://www.sermo.com/press-releases/largest-statistically-significant-study-by-6200-multi-country-physicians-on-covid-19-uncovers-treatment-patterns-and-puts-pandemic-in-context/

And for those so quick to embrace studies that it hasn't been successful whist at the same time ignoring it's successes (gee why would they do that?), here's a flashing red light why the numbers are skewed in some studies...

 

None of these treatments have yet shown much success when introduced at late stages. The DOCTORS touting hydroxychloroquine have said from the beginning that this drug like all the others works best if used early on. Yet grossly we have people looking to discredit something that is working by jumping on studies showing it's not doing much for critical patients. Yeah no duh Sherlock. Nothing is working all that well when it's introduced at late stages.
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let it go

 
Tom Skerritt said:
Herein lies the conundrum, and one that you and others fail to explain...

This drug was not developed to treat Covid symptoms. And the drug is not successful in treating Covid. So how would they turn to it and hone in on its success?
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Oh man, this is all out there to be read if you wish. Again, the simple process is...

- patient arrives with new illness that is similar to other illnesses but not responding to the same treatments used for those similar illnesses

- doctors then start thinking about other drugs that work on some of the symptoms but on illnesses seemingly different from what's presented before them (like Malaria)

- through all of this experimentation, protocols and preferred drugs start to build in the worldwide medical community

- over time some rise in prominence and others fall off as more data and accounts are collected

Hydroxychloroquine was being used in other countries on Covid 19 before Trump had even heard of it

 
Rich Conway said:
What I've bolded in here is NOT inescapable fact.  It's not a fact at all.  The entire point that many, many people are attempting to make is that we don't know if anyone has had success with those treatments.  Literally, not one COVID recovery can specifically be attributed to HCO because we can't know if that person would have recovered without it.  That's why we perform peer-reviewed studies with control groups.
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And no one here can say IT'S NOT WORKING AT ALL by that measure. All we have to go by is what doctors are turning to. And hydroxychloroquine is very much at the top of their list. Yet people here are going to try and put their knowledge ahead of doctors?

People like shader, you say "let it go". Tell that to the doctors using it.

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
[scooter] said:
Guess you didn't get the memo. You can stop the cheerleading and the faux outrage now.
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I'm literally the first person here who said this and every other drug being used to treat CV19 are not miracle cures.
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That's not true, but it is true that you literally claimed that there's no evidence that hydroxychloroquine doesn't help to buy time for patients.

You went all-in on cheerleading and anti-science and you got burned. All we can hope is that you take this lesson to heart the next time you feel like attacking the pro-science crowd.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
And no one here can say IT'S NOT WORKING AT ALL by that measure. All we have to go by is what doctors are turning to. And hydroxychloroquine is very much at the top of their list. Yet people here are going to try and put their knowledge ahead of doctors?

People like shader, you say "let it got". Tell that to the doctors using it.
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You're right.  No one can say it absolutely doesn't work at this point.  No one can say it absolutely does at this point.  I really don't care if Doctor X prescribes it in a specific instance.

I do care that Trump, Fox News opinion hosts, and Dr. Oz are out there hyping it as a miracle cure and feigning outrage at those who take the proper, measured approach.  Those people are wrong, and it's dangerous.

 
[scooter] said:
That's not true, but it is true that you literally claimed that there's no evidence that hydroxychloroquine doesn't help to buy time for patients.

You went all-in on cheerleading and anti-science and you got burned. All we can hope is that you take this lesson to heart the next time you feel like attacking the pro-science crowd.
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I didn't get burned on anything. The people we place our trust in knowing how to treat the sick have turned to it more than any other drug. They don't continue to use it if it's not helping. The people having bad outcomes are using it in too high of doses and too late for it to help. And that's the case with all these drugs. Yet for this one liberal obsessed drug, when it's used in no-win situations, that's all they and you want to talk about.

It's a very weird obsession that certain people are so anxious for something not to work.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
And no one here can say IT'S NOT WORKING AT ALL by that measure. All we have to go by is what doctors are turning to. And hydroxychloroquine is very much at the top of their list. Yet people here are going to try and put their knowledge ahead of doctors?

People like shader, you say "let it got". Tell that to the doctors using it.
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I'm fine with doctors testing it out.  But I'm not fine with people promoting the use of it until we know it works.  Which we don't.  So at this point it's in a pot with a bunch of other drugs that have not been proven to help.  

 
Mr Anonymous said:
I didn't get burned on anything. The people we place our trust in knowing how to treat the sick have turned to it more than any other drug. They don't continue to use it if it's not helping. The people having bad outcomes are using it in too high of doses and too late for it to help. And that's the case with all these drugs. Yet for this one liberal obsessed drug, when it's used in no-win situations, that's all they and you want to talk about.

It's a very weird obsession that certain people are so anxious for something not to work.
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Wrong.  That's how a trial works.  You can't determine that in a couple weeks of testing. 

 
shader said:
I'm fine with doctors testing it out.  But I'm not fine with people promoting the use of it until we know it works.  Which we don't.  So at this point it's in a pot with a bunch of other drugs that have not been proven to help.  
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People promoting it is the problem? Who the flip cares? Doctors aren't giving it to patients because he hyped it. The only strange aspect of all this is people running to try and find evidence that it doesn't work. And they're shouting it down by standards no other drug is being held to. It's quite the eye opener as to people's intent.

If Trump would've hyped a drug by a different name, then hydroxychloroquine would be the media's favorite hype drug based on the fact that doctors are choosing it most. And then some other drug would be held to a different standard.

Just get the personal motivations out of this.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
People promoting it is the problem? Who the flip cares? Doctors aren't giving it to patients because he hyped it. The only strange aspect of all this is people running to try and find evidence that it doesn't work. And they're shouting it down by standards no other drug is being held to. It's quite the eye opener as to people's intent.

If Trump would've hyped a drug by a different name, then hydroxychloroquine would be the media's favorite hype drug based on the fact that doctors are choosing it most. And then some other drug would be held to a different standard.

Just get the personal motivations out of this.
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Let's be honest, doctors frequently give drugs to patients because the patients ask for them by name.  That is literally the reason pharmaceutical companies advertise on TV.

Not all doctors do this, but lots do.

 
@carlquintanilla

(Bloomberg) -- Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Wednesday he favors allowing states struggling with high public employee pension costs amid the burdens of the pandemic response to declare bankruptcy rather than giving them a federal bailout.
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Gotta bail out the corporations though.

 
shader said:
Wrong.  That's how a trial works.  You can't determine that in a couple weeks of testing. 
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Has it been taken off of trial for not working? Has any drug? Until the entire medical community comes to a consensus, doctors are using what they PERCEIVE is working. And right now, by number of doctors calling it their preferred treatment, the drug chosen by most is hydroxychloroquine.

I could care less if two weeks from now another drug has worked it's way to the top of the list. I could care less about Trump. I'm not a Trumper, I shared stories about hydroxychloroquine BEFORE Trump mentioned it. I just want drugs to work and save some lives. Could care less which one. And with the sole motivation, of course I'm going to share positive news about a given drug. If some other drug starts taking the mantle, I'll happily share that good news as well.

All I'm pointing out is the odd obsession to discredit one drug because Trump spoke highly of it. And using an absurd standard to do that discrediting. All while completely ignoring that until a stronger consensus is formed, this drug is being used by the most doctors.

 
Chicago Hooligan said:
@carlquintanilla

(Bloomberg) -- Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Wednesday he favors allowing states struggling with high public employee pension costs amid the burdens of the pandemic response to declare bankruptcy rather than giving them a federal bailout.
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Gotta bail out the corporations though.
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Are they bailing out the cruiselines? The ones who aren't registered in the US, pay no US taxes and don't follow US hiring laws? Serious question, I know it was promoted by Trump.

 
BladeRunner said:
So, politics as usual?  Why is this so surprising that's it's causing so much outrage in here?
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Some in here thought he was intentionally undermining his own administration’s guidance, which, if true, would be worthy of outrage given that we’re talking about life and death matters. I simply don’t think he put that much thought into the tweets. 

 
Hey @Mr Anonymous I’m glad you’re still here; hope you and your family are safe and well. 

Before I was suspended you and I were in the middle of a debate about massive testing which is still ongoing and which I still hold is the key issue at hand, much more important than your current discussion about the malaria drugs (which in any event will take months to finally resolve): I hold that any attempt to return to “normalcy” is both premature and unwise unless we have massive testing and contract tracing in place. By “massive” I mean millions of tests, enough to sample any segment of a community at large (actually what I mean is so that qualified expert doctors say, “yes we have enough tests”. By contract tracing I mean the ability and enough people to follow a person with this virus backwards to isolate both him and her and anyone they’ve been in contact with- a massive undertaking which we have not begun to set the means in place to attempt. 

You disagreed with this argument- you believed that it was possible to open up without massive testing and contract tracing, as Georgia and a few other states are preparing to do so now, though you didn’t offer an explanation of how this could be accomplished without unacceptable risk (at least not one that I could understand,.) And that’s where we left it. Is that still your point of view? If so, can you explain how this can be accomplished? I’m eager to resume the debate/discussion. 

 
My last post extends to anyone else here who believes, as apparently does the governor of Georgia, that we can proceed to reopen the economy without massive testing and contract tracing in place. Appreciate your input. 

 
timschochet said:
Hey @Mr Anonymous I’m glad you’re still here; hope you and your family are safe and well. 

Before I was suspended you and I were in the middle of a debate about massive testing which is still ongoing and which I still hold is the key issue at hand, much more important than your current discussion about the malaria drugs (which in any event will take months to finally resolve): I hold that any attempt to return to “normalcy” is both premature and unwise unless we have massive testing and contract tracing in place. By “massive” I mean millions of tests, enough to sample any segment of a community at large (actually what I mean is so that qualified expert doctors say, “yes we have enough tests”. By contract tracing I mean the ability and enough people to follow a person with this virus backwards to isolate both him and her and anyone they’ve been in contact with- a massive undertaking which we have not begun to set the means in place to attempt. 

You disagreed with this argument- you believed that it was possible to open up without massive testing and contract tracing, as Georgia and a few other states are preparing to do so now, though you didn’t offer an explanation of how this could be accomplished without unacceptable risk (at least not one that I could understand,.) And that’s where we left it. Is that still your point of view? If so, can you explain how this can be accomplished? I’m eager to resume the debate/discussion. 
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Likewise, I too hope you and your family are safe and well. 

I think it's possible to open up without massive testing, not because I don't want it, but because we might not have a choice. I've said before and I'll repeat it - opening up without safety measures is just as reckless as staying shut down without warrant. My problem with testing isn't the idea. Of course the more tests, the better. My problem is the daily news of how bad and inaccurate these tests are. Hopefully that's shifting and hopefully the promised escalation of ACCURATE testing is coming soon. But in places where hospitals are well below capacity and the numbers keep sliding downward, we should be reopening WITH SAFETY MEASURES. A key overlooked aspect of the current guidelines is that the 14 day decline has to come with EQUAL OR GREATER TESTING. You can't just lower testing and say "look how few cases we have!" 

I do not agree with governors opening states without those guidelines being met. Especially since so many states are on the cusp of, if not already meeting guidelines. There's too much manipulation of data going on by both sides. There should be NO MANIPULATING of anything. Where appropriate some businesses under shut down should be opening. But please do what the guidelines require such as masks, sanitation protocol, ensured distancing, capacity limits, etc. With those restrictions in place, heightened testing would be great but not essential. We're testing more than any nation in the world and a lot of those other nations are reopening because their curves have flattened. In parts of this country curves have been flattened as well, yet their governors are stalling and it's just as bad as the places where we're reopening too soon.

 
I'll also add and leave myself wide open to be shown wrong, but it seems as though the more testing we do, the more it shows how widespread this is and thus less deadly. So test away! But setting new volume standards just to avoid reopening in a safe manner where warranted just feels like a delay to have a delay.

 
I don't believe Trump called chloroquine a miracle cure or a cure of any sort (correct me if I'm wrong). Essentially the insinuation Trump pulls the strings on how doctors practice medicine. No doubt he got excited. I probably would have, too. The ####show that followed ended being an exercise in pretty much exactly what's wrong with politics. 

We can debate how effective chloroquine & Remdesivir are, but there's a mountain of anecdotal evidence these drugs are a tool in the toolbag at the very least. And I have to get a kick out of people trying to point out he should've championed Remdesivir (one study showing 25% of recipients had severe side effects like multi-organ dysfunction, sepsis, & kidney/liver damage) instead of chloroquine. That's a good one. 

Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of ammo against COVID-19 right now. Many outcomes depend on the skill of your medical team. Doctors are scrambling right now. 

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
Likewise, I too hope you and your family are safe and well. 

I think it's possible to open up without massive testing, not because I don't want it, but because we might not have a choice. I've said before and I'll repeat it - opening up without safety measures is just as reckless as staying shut down without warrant. My problem with testing isn't the idea. Of course the more tests, the better. My problem is the daily news of how bad and inaccurate these tests are. Hopefully that's shifting and hopefully the promised escalation of ACCURATE testing is coming soon. But in places where hospitals are well below capacity and the numbers keep sliding downward, we should be reopening WITH SAFETY MEASURES. A key overlooked aspect of the current guidelines is that the 14 day decline has to come with EQUAL OR GREATER TESTING. You can't just lower testing and say "look how few cases we have!" 

I do not agree with governors opening states without those guidelines being met. Especially since so many states are on the cusp of, if not already meeting guidelines. There's too much manipulation of data going on by both sides. There should be NO MANIPULATING of anything. Where appropriate some businesses under shut down should be opening. But please do what the guidelines require such as masks, sanitation protocol, ensured distancing, capacity limits, etc. With those restrictions in place, heightened testing would be great but not essential. We're testing more than any nation in the world and a lot of those other nations are reopening because their curves have flattened. In parts of this country curves have been flattened as well, yet their governors are stalling and it's just as bad as the places where we're reopening too soon.
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I don't believe the portion I bolded is correct.  The way I read it, the "equal or greater testing" clause applies to only one criteria, which itself is one of two criteria joined by an OR statement.

 
Rich Conway said:
What I've bolded in here is NOT inescapable fact.  It's not a fact at all.  The entire point that many, many people are attempting to make is that we don't know if anyone has had success with those treatments.  Literally, not one COVID recovery can specifically be attributed to HCO because we can't know if that person would have recovered without it.  That's why we perform peer-reviewed studies with control groups.
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Overall, 95-99% of people who get infected recover.  For the people given HC the odds are far far lower.  So obviously it doesn't work.

 
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Rich Conway said:
I don't believe the portion I bolded is correct.  The way I read it, the "equal or greater testing" clause applies to only one criteria, which itself is one of two criteria joined by an OR statement.
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You're probably correct. Just another gaping hole to drive a reckless reopen semi through. It's the safety guidelines I'm placing an emphasis on. I have little faith in the testing aspect whether followed or not. And like I said, the more testing we do, the more it seems to show that where the cases and deaths are low, this really is under control. Because added tests just drum up new unknown cases of healthy people.

 
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Football Jones said:
I don't believe Trump called chloroquine a miracle cure or a cure of any sort (correct me if I'm wrong). Essentially the insinuation Trump pulls the strings on how doctors practice medicine. No doubt he got excited. I probably would have, too. The ####show that followed ended being an exercise in pretty much exactly what's wrong with politics. 

We can debate how effective chloroquine & Remdesivir are, but there's a mountain of anecdotal evidence these drugs are a tool in the toolbag at the very least. And I have to get a kick out of people trying to point out he should've championed Remdesivir (one study showing 25% of recipients had severe side effects like multi-organ dysfunction, sepsis, & kidney/liver damage) instead of chloroquine. That's a good one. 

Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of ammo against COVID-19 right now. Many outcomes depend on the skill of your medical team. Doctors are scrambling right now. 
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It might be useful to segue from chloroquine (or even remdesivir) specifically as a topic and maybe start looking at vaccine development generally. 

- I posted this in the FFA thread, it's a general discussion by a CMO and founder of Affigen about what will be required top find a vaccine.

Bottom line, yes, we all hope we'll quickly develop a highly effective vaccine, but the biology of coronavirus and the history of veterinary vaccines suggests it may be a slog. We need to keep working on antivirals, and we need to be prepared for extended social distancing.
Click to expand...

 
Chicago Hooligan said:
@carlquintanilla

(Bloomberg) -- Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Wednesday he favors allowing states struggling with high public employee pension costs amid the burdens of the pandemic response to declare bankruptcy rather than giving them a federal bailout.
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Gotta bail out the corporations though.
Click to expand...
I wonder how he feels about Puerto Rico getting the sam bankruptcy protections...

 
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