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Government Response To The Coronavirus (7 Viewers)

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moleculo said:
I don't want there to be crime either.  I wish we could live in a world where we didn't need jails or police, and we could leave our doors unlocked.  Unfortunately, there are things in this world we don't like but we have to accept.  

If you have better ways to prevent transmission of the virus among a population that believes mask usage is a violation of natural rights, I'd love to hear it.
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Shutting down things doesn't do it.  You said it yourself.  You have people that don't listen.  Not only do they not wear masks, they aren't stopping congregating at large gatherings.  In homes and public places.

So punishing an honest business owner trying to make a living by following all the rules, because people are gathering at weddings and parties etc is the wrong approach in my opinion.  Now, LARGE things like sports and Disney etc? Well I can agree that might be a good idea.  But forcing the local hair salon to close is a bad idea.

 
Mr. Ham said:
Answer is clear, and realistic. But requires action, and leadership to push compliance.

100% mask use within 6 feet, with enforcement 

Free testing, ubiquitous 

Contact tracing, rigorous and electronic, in partnership with big tech and Telcos

Enforced quarantine of those with contact 

Immediate isolation of anyone testing positive, including from family 

That would do it. But we’re not doing it.
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From family?  And how are you gonna enforce that?  LOL  I love when we start to get to the silly ideas. Makes for a fun discussion.

 
The Gator said:
I have the sense, that we are not ready for this aspect - that the current spread would overwhelm even the most robust/compliant contact tracing system.

I think contact tracing works well, when you have the virus under control, and you are looking to put out small flareups.
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I agree, which is why I would issue a 21 day   stay at home and travel ban order for counties that are being hit hard.  I wouldn't do it at the national or even state level but certainly, any county that is getting slammed should be shut down.

To help with that, I would provide massive gov't assistance to residents of those counties - basically, 100% unemployment benefits, even for 1099 workers to encourage quarantine.  This stay-at-home would be much more restrictive - i.e. no home depot or walmart, and food by delivery only.  "essential worker" definition will be much more restrictive.  And, it would have a definite duration - 21 days.  

That should get the virus down to traceable levels.

 
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Keep America Great -- Here's 33 that countries have banned US travelers

ETA -- It's actually much more extensive.  Here is the list of places that US travelers are allowed to go to:

Antigua and Barbuda
Aruba
The Bahamas
Barbados
Belize
Bermuda
Croatia
The Dominican Republic
French Polynesia
Grenada (sort of)
Ireland (sort of)
Jamaica
Puerto Rico
The Maldives
Mexico
Rwanda
St Barths
St. Lucia
Saint Maarten
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Seychelles
Turkey
Turks and Caicos
United Kingdom (sort of)
The U.S. Virgin Islands

 
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supermike80 said:
Shutting down things doesn't do it.  You said it yourself.  You have people that don't listen.  Not only do they not wear masks, they aren't stopping congregating at large gatherings.  In homes and public places.

So punishing an honest business owner trying to make a living by following all the rules, because people are gathering at weddings and parties etc is the wrong approach in my opinion.  Now, LARGE things like sports and Disney etc? Well I can agree that might be a good idea.  But forcing the local hair salon to close is a bad idea.
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that's because we never shut things down.  There was no enforcement and everyone knew it.

ETA: protests/riots restarts the 21 day clock.

 
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supermike80 said:
The Commish said:
So...basically what's going on right now in Florida.  Do you think things are going ok here?  I really can't invision what things would look like if Disney, Universal, Performing Arts centers, nursing homes/long term care facilities were all open to the public at full capacity here in Florida.  My GUESS is it would be worse than what NYC saw, but I have no way of knowing that for sure.
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Right..>Can't know.   
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And the answer to the bold?

 
The Commish said:
And the answer to the bold?
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You're not gonna like my answer.   We need to do more to shield the vulnerable, but the spike in cases doesn't automatically mean we need to shut things down.  There is more and more evidence showing the cases can and are more mild than not.   

 
Zigg said:
Why is it so hard not to respond to obvious trolls?  At some point, you have to realize that it's not worth it, and keep the conversation relevant.  
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because it is worth it.

both the trolls and the responders want to fight, not have a relevant conversation.

it's pretty sad.

 
supermike80 said:
Shutting down things doesn't do it.  You said it yourself.  You have people that don't listen.  Not only do they not wear masks, they aren't stopping congregating at large gatherings.  In homes and public places.

So punishing an honest business owner trying to make a living by following all the rules, because people are gathering at weddings and parties etc is the wrong approach in my opinion.  Now, LARGE things like sports and Disney etc? Well I can agree that might be a good idea.  But forcing the local hair salon to close is a bad idea.
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Republican leadership has continually downplayed the threat of this since day 1. Maybe if they had preached those things we were trying to do in April instead of saying everything is fine more people would have done these things. Granted we would still have some issues with this, but we wouldnt be arguing about action to address this pandemic.
 

I somewhat agree with your second paragraph, but I’ll make one point- take hair salons for example. There is a way to do that safely, with masks/gloves and can even put chairs outside, but the business as is poses a threat. We could maybe allow house calls, but that poses a risk to the employee (although they largely work for themselves).  It’s hard to tailor a response that works for each individual business, and people obviously have different ideas on whether this virus is even real, so it makes sense to just make it a blanket order and revise it as needed.  
To combat a pandemic it’s important to be proactive. We both live in michigan- we were a top 5 cv hotspot early on, and we have done pretty well imo to this point. Look at Florida and look at Michigan, compare how both have handled it, and tell me you’d rather have DeSantis leadership here. 

 
Snorkelson said:
Republican leadership has continually downplayed the threat of this since day 1. Maybe if they had preached those things we were trying to do in April instead of saying everything is fine more people would have done these things. Granted we would still have some issues with this, but we wouldnt be arguing about action to address this pandemic.
 

I somewhat agree with your second paragraph, but I’ll make one point- take hair salons for example. There is a way to do that safely, with masks/gloves and can even put chairs outside, but the business as is poses a threat. We could maybe allow house calls, but that poses a risk to the employee (although they largely work for themselves).  It’s hard to tailor a response that works for each individual business, and people obviously have different ideas on whether this virus is even real, so it makes sense to just make it a blanket order and revise it as needed.  
To combat a pandemic it’s important to be proactive. We both live in michigan- we were a top 5 cv hotspot early on, and we have done pretty well imo to this point. Look at Florida and look at Michigan, compare how both have handled it, and tell me you’d rather have DeSantis leadership here. 
Click to expand...
Well I absolutely don't want Whitmer.  Her executive orders are haphazard and lack real thought.  Don't get me started on a Governor out, against her OWN executive order, protesting in public for BLM. So sorry, I am not a big fan of our current governor.  However I am not going to get into that debate here.

I have been consistent on this.  I do not agree that we should shut down businesses.  This mindset of save every life is short sighted and ONLY considers the response to a virus that is showing itself more and more to be less fatal as previously believed.  We overreacted.  I would counter and say if YOU are compromised, then YOU protect YOURSELF..Don't go to public places.  Social distance when you are around others.  Wear your mask.  Don't crush the business owners.

Also, the virus situation shouldn't be the ONLY measuring stick. When you say "we have done pretty well" I flat out disagree when we are looking at over 25% of people in the state unemployed.  Millions can't get enough food, millions are looking at a very likely chance of losing homes or apartments.  So the virus isn't the only thing I want to measure by, and I don't think it should be the only thing.

 
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Zigg said:
Why is it so hard not to respond to obvious trolls?  At some point, you have to realize that it's not worth it, and keep the conversation relevant.  
Click to expand...
You're absolutely right. I think there's this instinctual need to dunk on stupid arguments, and I let myself get sucked in. But ultimately, you're not changing anyone's mind, all you're doing is causing the overuse of the laughing emoji. Best to put people like that on ignore.

 
zftcg said:
You're absolutely right. I think there's this instinctual need to dunk on stupid arguments, and I let myself get sucked in. But ultimately, you're not changing anyone's mind, all you're doing is causing the overuse of the laughing emoji. Best to put people like that on ignore.
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I openly admit I partake in a fair amount of trolling here at times, I mean it is REALLY easy to do so.

However not in this thread.  My thoughts are genuine.

 
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supermike80 said:
Well I absolutely don't want Whitmer.  Her executive orders are haphazard and lack real thought.  Don't get me started on a Governor out, against her OWN executive order, protesting in public for BLM. So sorry, I am not a big fan of our current governor.  However I am not going to get into that debate here.

I have been consistent on this.  I do not agree that we should shut down businesses.  This mindset of save every life is short sighted and ONLY considers the response to a virus that is showing itself more and more to be less fatal as previously believed.  We overreacted.  I would counter and say if YOU are compromised, then YOU protect YOURSELF..Don't go to public places.  Social distance when you are around others.  Wear your mask.  Don't crush the business owners.

Also, the virus situation shouldn't be the ONLY measuring stick. When you say "we have done pretty well" I flat out disagree when we are looking at over 25% of people in the state unemployed.  Millions can't get enough food, millions are looking at a very likely chance of losing homes or apartments.  So the virus isn't the only thing I want to measure by, and I don't think it should be the only thing.
Click to expand...
Michigan labor numbers

What numbers are you looking at?

She’s done well by your measures

 
supermike80 said:
You're not gonna like my answer.   We need to do more to shield the vulnerable, but the spike in cases doesn't automatically mean we need to shut things down.  There is more and more evidence showing the cases can and are more mild than not.   
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Is that true? Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. When Florida first started to see a spike in positive cases last month, I tried to withhold judgment based on the fact that the average age was much lower, so maybe we wouldn't see a corresponding spike in hospitalizations and deaths. But a month later, we're definitely seeing the increasing deaths (can't tell on hospitalizations because the state doesn't release the data, but we have seen that in other hot-spot states).

It is probably the case that the death rate is lower than it was in NY in the spring, due to some combination of lower average age as well as improved treatment protocols. And of course the fact that we're testing a broader range of people means that we're going to see a lot more asymptomatic cases (we had those a couple months ago, but we didn't even know those people were positive because they weren't being tested). But that doesn't mean that the virus has become any less dangerous.

So I agree with you that a spike in cases doesn't automatically mean we have to shut things down. But what I'm seeing over the past month seems to support the theory that this spike is just as worrisome as previous spikes.  

 
supermike80 said:
Well I absolutely don't want Whitmer.  Her executive orders are haphazard and lack real thought.  Don't get me started on a Governor out, against her OWN executive order, protesting in public for BLM. So sorry, I am not a big fan of our current governor.  However I am not going to get into that debate here.

I have been consistent on this.  I do not agree that we should shut down businesses.  This mindset of save every life is short sighted and ONLY considers the response to a virus that is showing itself more and more to be less fatal as previously believed.  We overreacted.  I would counter and say if YOU are compromised, then YOU protect YOURSELF..Don't go to public places.  Social distance when you are around others.  Wear your mask.  Don't crush the business owners.

Also, the virus situation shouldn't be the ONLY measuring stick. When you say "we have done pretty well" I flat out disagree when we are looking at over 25% of people in the state unemployed.  Millions can't get enough food, millions are looking at a very likely chance of losing homes or apartments.  So the virus isn't the only thing I want to measure by, and I don't think it should be the only thing.
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BS, whitmer has saved ton of lives. that's the bottom line.

 
supermike80 said:
Well I absolutely don't want Whitmer.  Her executive orders are haphazard and lack real thought.  Don't get me started on a Governor out, against her OWN executive order, protesting in public for BLM. So sorry, I am not a big fan of our current governor.  However I am not going to get into that debate here.

I have been consistent on this.  I do not agree that we should shut down businesses.  This mindset of save every life is short sighted and ONLY considers the response to a virus that is showing itself more and more to be less fatal as previously believed.  We overreacted.  I would counter and say if YOU are compromised, then YOU protect YOURSELF..Don't go to public places.  Social distance when you are around others.  Wear your mask.  Don't crush the business owners.

Also, the virus situation shouldn't be the ONLY measuring stick. When you say "we have done pretty well" I flat out disagree when we are looking at over 25% of people in the state unemployed.  Millions can't get enough food, millions are looking at a very likely chance of losing homes or apartments.  So the virus isn't the only thing I want to measure by, and I don't think it should be the only thing.
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IMO, it's not an either/or thing.  It's not kill the economy or let the virus spread, the economy takes a hit either way.  It's do we stop the virus or not?  I believe in short term pain to stop the long term problems.

The best way to save the economy is to stop the virus.  I've been consistent with this for months.

on MI vs FL: I don't know what the unemployment rates of the two states were prior to COVID.  Given how much Florida depends on tourism (i.e. theme parks, cruises, hotels), I'd have to assume they aren't doing well.  Here's one article I found on the topic:

Florida remained among the three worst states in the nation last week for number of first-time unemployment claims.

The state had 105,410 first-time claims in the week ending July 18, down from 132,831 in the previous week, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. This comes after claims nearly doubled in one week for the week ending July 11.

Florida's number of claims was behind only California (292,673) and Georgia (120,281).

The Sunshine State's economy has been reopening slowly since May, but a rise in Covid-19 cases has caused the state to implement policies that may challenge some businesses like bars and breweries.
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It looks like FL is sitting at 10.7% and Michigan is at 14.8%.  To make a fair comparison, you would have to look at Michigan and Florida's unemployment prior to COVID.

 
Snorkelson said:
Michigan labor numbers

What numbers are you looking at?

She’s done well by your measures
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i was looking at this.

https://www.michigan.gov/dtmb/0,5552,7-358-82546_9352_99726-529743--,00.html#:~:text=Michigan's April 2020 unemployment rate,16.5 percent in December 1982.

Specifically this part of that link

Michigan’s April 2020 unemployment rate of 22.7 percent is the highest rate since at least 1976 (as far back as comparable estimates go), likely making it an all-time high. The previous high rate over this period was 16.5 percent in December 1982.

So no, but by my measurement she is NOT doing well.

 
supermike80 said:
I have been consistent on this.  I do not agree that we should shut down businesses.  This mindset of save every life is short sighted and ONLY considers the response to a virus that is showing itself more and more to be less fatal as previously believed.  We overreacted.  I would counter and say if YOU are compromised, then YOU protect YOURSELF..Don't go to public places.  Social distance when you are around others.  Wear your mask.  Don't crush the business owners.
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So we overreacted and STILL have 150,000 deaths with the potential for another 100,000 or so according to experts. Imagine what those numbers would be like if we hadn't "overreacted". 

 
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also, Michigan has had >50 deaths per day since 5/31, with a clear downwards trend since April.  Yesterday Florida had 216 with a clear and present upwards trend.

 
moleculo said:
also, Michigan has had >50 deaths per day since 5/31, with a clear downwards trend since April.  Yesterday Florida had 216 with a clear and present upwards trend.
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And I am willing to say a good part of that was NOT because someone got a haircut, or a beer at a restaurant etc etc..Its cause they are hanging out in groups, and the young people are being careless.that DOESNT change by stripping someone of their livelihood.

 
supermike80 said:
You're not gonna like my answer.   We need to do more to shield the vulnerable, but the spike in cases doesn't automatically mean we need to shut things down.  There is more and more evidence showing the cases can and are more mild than not.   
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Try me by answering the question :shrug: It's not a gotcha question....you seem to be trying to go somewhere I have no desire to go...just wanted your opinion on how Florida is doing right now.

 
The Commish said:
Try me by answering the question :shrug: It's not a gotcha question....you seem to be trying to go somewhere I have no desire to go...just wanted your opinion on how Florida is doing right now.
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I thought I just did.   Florida's cases are increasing, their deaths are trending up as well.  

 
supermike80 said:
i was looking at this.

https://www.michigan.gov/dtmb/0,5552,7-358-82546_9352_99726-529743--,00.html#:~:text=Michigan's April 2020 unemployment rate,16.5 percent in December 1982.

Specifically this part of that link

Michigan’s April 2020 unemployment rate of 22.7 percent is the highest rate since at least 1976 (as far back as comparable estimates go), likely making it an all-time high. The previous high rate over this period was 16.5 percent in December 1982.

So no, but by my measurement she is NOT doing well.
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Ok so “way over 25%” which you wrote above was “way above reality.” And my point is more that since her term started UE dropped 1% pre covid and the current 14% is also way below your statement earlier as well. While the jump in April is no doubt because of her stay at home order, we have trended back down in both covid and unemployment. 

 
supermike80 said:
And I am willing to say a good part of that was NOT because someone got a haircut, or a beer at a restaurant etc etc..Its cause they are hanging out in groups, and the young people are being careless.that DOESNT change by stripping someone of their livelihood.
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so what is Michigan doing right that FL is doing wrong?

 
Not to be a buddinski into your conversation, but I think this is an incredibly difficult time to be a governor. And most of them are trying to do their best.

I live in Texas and our governor has made mistakes, no doubt. For example, he went from Stage 1 to Stage 2 to Stage 3 (in opening businesses) with only 2 weeks between each stage. This was way too fast - before there was sufficient data.

But he's got a really tough job here - he has to balance the incredible damage to our economy with protecting the safety of Texans. That's a really, really hard call to make. And for the most part, I think he has done it while paying attention to the data and using that as a guide.

So I generally give the governors a little slack. They've all made mistakes. But its an INCREDIBLY difficult job right now. And they are getting no support from the White House. In fact, for long stretches, the WH was actively sabotaging efforts to control the spread.

 
apalmer said:
What level of death does it take to balance closing of businesses then?
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That's a GREAT question!!! I LOVE THAT QUESTION...Because I like to flip it.  We want to shut things down.  For how long? What are the acceptable number of people that should be allowed to die before we open up again? Zero?  Are we trying to save every life?  And if not why not?  How many are we trying to save?  

 
Snorkelson said:
Ok so “way over 25%” which you wrote above was “way above reality.” And my point is more that since her term started UE dropped 1% pre covid and the current 14% is also way below your statement earlier as well. While the jump in April is no doubt because of her stay at home order, we have trended back down in both covid and unemployment. 
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I apologize..the highest number since 1967,  22%, it was not way over 25.  Sue me.

 
whoknew said:
Not to be a buddinski into your conversation, but I think this is an incredibly difficult time to be a governor. And most of them are trying to do their best.

I live in Texas and our governor has made mistakes, no doubt. For example, he went from Stage 1 to Stage 2 to Stage 3 (in opening businesses) with only 2 weeks between each stage. This was way too fast - before there was sufficient data.

But he's got a really tough job here - he has to balance the incredible damage to our economy with protecting the safety of Texans. That's a really, really hard call to make. And for the most part, I think he has done it while paying attention to the data and using that as a guide.

So I generally give the governors a little slack. They've all made mistakes. But its an INCREDIBLY difficult job right now. And they are getting no support from the White House. In fact, for long stretches, the WH was actively sabotaging efforts to control the spread.
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I applaud EVERYONE's efforts for something new and scary and nothing really anyone has seen before. I agree with that.  I'm not interested in "punishing" Whitmer for her response(As some have tried to recall her..GTFO) but I don't like some of what shes done.

 
supermike80 said:
I apologize..the highest number since 1967,  22%, it was not way over 25.  Sue me.
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Hey man, just calling the hyperbole what it is, sorry I did it snarky. 
What is closed in Michigan right now that you think we should have open? Seems like most things are available in some capacity, and our covid numbers are trending the way we would like. Seems like about as good a balance we could hope for.

 
Snorkelson said:
Hey man, just calling the hyperbole what it is, sorry I did it snarky. 
What is closed in Michigan right now that you think we should have open? Seems like most things are available in some capacity, and our covid numbers are trending the way we would like. Seems like about as good a balance we could hope for.
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Dude..Stop it. Please just stop it.  I'm talking about when it started, we over reacted.  We closed the whole state down, and unemployment jumped to the highest level seen here since 1976 (but under 25%).  We over reacted.  We crushed people.  And I don't want to that to happen again. So for me, and what got me started down this entire wormhole with you guys, is the mindset that we need contact tracing so we can immediately find things to shut down. I don't want to use it for that purpose if that's OK.  I'd like people to be able to have homes and food etc.  

 
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bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
a death that was totally preventable. When is the Republican party going to wake up and realize that its a matter of life and death. Those guys and their media outlets are flat out killing people and in some cases themselves and loved ones.

So senseless
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“Masks will not be mandatory for the event, which will be attended by President Trump. PEOPLE ARE FED UP!” 

It's enraging to be governed by people so deeply steeped in their own BS they'd rather die than break with their ideology.  I can't imagine being willing to lose my life so senselessly.  If only there were a word to describe this mindset.

 
Mr. Ham said:
Herman Cain died of coronavirus, after contracting it within a couple weeks of the Tulsa rally, where he attended without a mask. It’s within the incubation window. Whether he got it there or elsewhere, the intent to lead by example with soldiering on without a mask has proven deadly. Tragic, and unnecessary.
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I believe in masks.

 
supermike80 said:
Dude..Stop it. Please just stop it.  I'm talking about when it started, we over reacted.  We closed the whole state down, and unemployment jumped to the highest level seen here since 1976 (but under 25%).  We over reacted.  We crushed people.  And I don't want to that to hapen again. So for me, and what got me started down this entire wormhole with your guys, is the mindset that we need contact tracing so we can immediately find things to shut down. I don't want to use it for that purpose if that's OK.  I'd like people to be able to have homes and food etc.  
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I’ll try to keep it constructive, I appreciate your responses and as a fellow Michigander care about your opinions. I also know you’re getting ganged up on here, so I won’t pile on. I also want people to have homes food etc and this is an unlike anything we’ve faced in modern history and requires unprecedented action to make sure people have that stuff and also don’t die.

 
Snorkelson said:
I’ll try to keep it constructive, I appreciate your responses and as a fellow Michigander care about your opinions. I also know you’re getting ganged up on here, so I won’t pile on. I also want people to have homes food etc and this is an unlike anything we’ve faced in modern history and requires unprecedented action to make sure people have that stuff and also don’t die.
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Well I appreciate that.  I'm aware my opinion isn't popular, especially here, so I'm willing to take the pile on.  

 
Mene said:
Last poll I saw had 63% strongly/somewhat support her handing of COVID, 31% strongly/somewhat do not support, 6% don't know what a governor is.  Most of the state recognizes she's done well overall.
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Well, the math that Trump seems to be using for his reelection strategy is 38% >  1.0 - 38%.  Therefore, it stands to reason that 31% > 63%.  

 
Mene said:
Last poll I saw had 63% strongly/somewhat support her handing of COVID, 31% strongly/somewhat do not support, 6% don't know what a governor is.  Most of the state recognizes she's done well overall.
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Polls are 100% worthless buttttt I don't wanna do that fight again  LOL

 
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zftcg said:
It is probably the case that the death rate is lower than it was in NY in the spring, due to some combination of lower average age as well as improved treatment protocols. And of course the fact that we're testing a broader range of people means that we're going to see a lot more asymptomatic cases (we had those a couple months ago, but we didn't even know those people were positive because they weren't being tested). But that doesn't mean that the virus has become any less dangerous.
Click to expand...
I try to remind myself as much as possible that comparing anything to what we saw in NYC is incredibly not wise.  If we take a second to think about that time, we realize that testing then was SIGNIFICANTLY worse than it is now.  Pause and think about that and you realize how bad it really was at that time.

 
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