MAC_32
Footballguy
Only a simpleton would argue that erasing college debt is the right move is a fact.
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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
BladeRunner
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
This new healing and moving forward campaign from the left sure involves a lot of revenge.
So the left wants revenge on Trump supporters and Trump, but who's going to take them to task for their disgusting behavior for the last 4 years?
Who gets to mete out justice/payback for that? because I guarantee you you'll be getting it back in spades if you continue down this path.
So the left wants revenge on Trump supporters and Trump, but who's going to take them to task for their disgusting behavior for the last 4 years?
Who gets to mete out justice/payback for that? because I guarantee you you'll be getting it back in spades if you continue down this path.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
The fact that we are discussing student loans..... actual policy...... instead of the most recent tweet of the President of the United States is a good thing.
And policy debates are supposed to be messy. American government is messy. Messy is non authoritative. We are actually making the progress you seek. But if you think that progress can be had, for any political arena, without figurative blood, then you haven't been paying attention to American political history. (Most of the time the figurative blood is necessary.... Thomas Jefferson even knew that) (yes, I just gave Jefferson credit for something) (yes I feel dirty).
I look forward to seeing how 2021 plays out.
timschochet
Footballguy
I think it’s the right move. It’s certainly not a fact. I could easily be wrong. It’s a complicated issue. So many of these issues are. I marvel at how certain so many people appear to be. In such a complex world as ours, with an economy that nobody can fully explain or predict, how can anyone be certain about ANY proposed financial policy?? I just don’t get it.
timschochet
Footballguy
This is what liberals have been telling me for the last 4 years when Trump pushed through a lot of stuff without Democratic support. It’s what conservatives said when Obama pushed through ACA and the Iran deal without Republican support. Now you’re saying it again, except that you’re calling it new. It hasn’t been new for a long time. The Democrats are planning to pay people like you (Trump supporters) back; now you’re promising to pay them back one day.
When’s it going to end?
MAC_32
Footballguy
The fool speaks, the wise man listens.
The answer is somewhere in the weeds of nuance, but we never get there because we get drowned out by the noise from those that are sure their way is the only way.
I think it mostly boils down it's always better for your side to claim your position is rooted in "facts". That way when someone disagrees with you, can say they just don't accept facts.
Then later, you get to smugly make the sweeping generalization that the entire other side just doesn't deal with facts. I don't see this changing.
timschochet
Footballguy
OK but sometimes I think that applies: wearing masks for example. Or man made climate change. Or the results of the 2020 election. In all three of those examples, I think one side has more facts than the other.
But not when it comes to financial decisions affecting the entire economy.
TheMagus
Footballguy
I like Mayor Pete's take on this. The bottom line is that those that went to college have a much higher earning potential over a lifetime. And the people that went to college made the choice to take on that debt for a vision of higher earning potential. There were also a ton of people who did not take that risk and went into trades or hourly jobs or whatnot. And their earning potential is pretty limited. So how on earth is it right or fair or any other adjective to just wipe away the cost of an entire generation's college debt? How many folks, if they knew this were to happen, would have chosen differently? You can't wipe away debt because there are underlying issues with the system - these people took loans and received the service. No one ever suggested that the government wipe away mortgages in 2007 even though we knew a lot of people were losing their houses due to predatory practices.
I am all for reforming the student loan system and making college more affordable. And fixing the system where there isn't a bottomless well of student loan money therefore allowing colleges to keep raising their tuition.
I don't see how you can retroactively go back and just wipe away people's debts for a service they already received and have the general population of taxpayers, many of which didn't have the luxury of free college, pay for it. And frankly we are dealing with a trillion dollar deficit annually and there are people in much greater need of government assistance than college grads that have loans that are hampering their lifestyles.
Sure. It's what I said earlier, I think there are not nearly as many black and white / fact and fake situations as many like to think. I think there's a ton of nuance and people love to claim "fact" or "fake" when that's not really the case
MAC_32
Footballguy
Looks like you're finally starting to come around! Healing and moving forward ain't happening. Republicans aren't going to cooperate and the only facts that matter are the ones that align with their bias. It's on dem leadership to not call out their hypocrisy - because the American people don't care. It's on dems to cite how their actions and disregard of inconvenient truths directly negatively impact us - I think economic sabotage will likely be a good place to start.
Will it work? Beats me, but I'm out of other plausible ideas.
TheMagus
Footballguy
You post about "sides" a lot. It doesn't really help the "healing" or the concept of unity. Nor does it help by turning millions of people into monoliths with common thoughts and not being recognized as individuals with individual thoughts. No offense Joe, but you want people to have grace and empathy and I'm just not seeing it from your posts over the past few months. And it's only pointed in one direction. It's kind of a downer and I honestly feel like it hinders honest conversation.
Absolutley. I see the divisions and tribalism and "sides" as a huge problem for us. I'll call out what I see the sides doing (and both do it) as that's what I'd love to see us change. I'm also often talking to myself and often cite I need to do better on this as much as anyone. If you think that hinders honest conversation I don't know what to tell you. It's as honest as I can be.
TheMagus
Footballguy
Why don't you look for the positive instead of focusing on the negative? I agree that the current state of affairs is not good. I want to get back to normal where it didn't matter who you were and you could have nuanced views on policy or ideas. But look above where I, a self-proclaimed bleeding heart liberal, posted about my thoughts on student loan forgiveness that are contrary to the AOC types of the Democratic party. Or some of the comments by @Yankee23Fan in other threads, who if I'm not mistaken is one of the most conservative of conservative people on the forum but also isn't in love with Trump, and your interactions with him, because I think you thought he was on "your side", and was therefore implying he was irrational about Trump. We need to get past this stuff and just talk about ideas and policies and not so much focus on where they are coming from or who the orator is. And I think getting rid of the concept of "sides", which you mention often (almost every post), is the first step to that. JMHO
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MAC_32
Footballguy
I think you're going to drown in negativity as long as you look to the sides as a guide. I think there is a bubble of potential answers somewhere in between, but it requires shoving the noise from both wings aside.
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You're vastly overrating how much you think I know about anyone's position. I don't have any idea what yankee thinks about much of anything other than we completely disagreed on extending grace recently. I sure don't think he's on my "side". Sorry but I don't have time for a notebook.
I do agree I can be better in looking for the positives. Thanks for the reminder. But I will be honest and it's discouraging if you think that limits conversation. I see it as the opposite. But different opinions are what makes a forum.
Dickies
Footballguy
It may have been off topic, but the college loan discussion was very respectful from what I read, and I don’t recall anyone in that debate claiming one side is rooted in facts while the other isn’t. I think most reasonable people can understand both sides of the debate, but have differences of opinion. Frankly it was refreshing to be debating policy again in a respectful manner.
That said, there are topics that are rooted in facts that one side has a tendency to ignore more than the other such as climate change, wearing masks, voter fraud, etc. The peddling of conspiracy theory by increasingly popular “news” sources has become a major problem that I don’t know how to solve, and frankly I only see it getting worse moving forward. Internet algorithms promote confirmation bias.
Agreed. I thought the college loan discussion was good. I was just using that as a general example. There's a lot of nuance there and less facts / fake angles. My point was a general one in we often call facts what are more opinions. But I too thought it was refreshing to discuss it.
And we'll see how it goes going forward for general stuff. I too worry about bias but we'll see.
jm192
Footballguy
Without going down a bunch of rabbit holes:
The NRA has a bunch of facts about gun violence. Proponents of gun violence either ignore them or feel they don't matter because of other facts.
There's a lot of scientific debate about abortion, when life begins, when a heart beat is present, etc. But I've been told on this forum that even with a detectable heart beat it's just a jumble of cells.
There are facts that point to the need for tighter immigration laws. But people have facts to dispute those facts.
BUT I CAN COUNTER THEM THERE FACTS WITH BETTER FACTS. There's always a counter argument.
You guys point out masks and climate change and voter fraud--and I agree with you on the science of that. But it does seem there are a lot of issues where the "facts" aren't important or are quickly explained away.
PLEASE don't try to turn this post into a debate on gun violence facts, abortion or immigration. They're all just examples.
The NRA has a bunch of facts about gun violence. Proponents of gun violence either ignore them or feel they don't matter because of other facts.
There's a lot of scientific debate about abortion, when life begins, when a heart beat is present, etc. But I've been told on this forum that even with a detectable heart beat it's just a jumble of cells.
There are facts that point to the need for tighter immigration laws. But people have facts to dispute those facts.
BUT I CAN COUNTER THEM THERE FACTS WITH BETTER FACTS. There's always a counter argument.
You guys point out masks and climate change and voter fraud--and I agree with you on the science of that. But it does seem there are a lot of issues where the "facts" aren't important or are quickly explained away.
PLEASE don't try to turn this post into a debate on gun violence facts, abortion or immigration. They're all just examples.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Joe and I are good. I think we disagree on style, not substance. Either way though, I can take a punch when I have to, if necessary.
The Commish
Footballguy
It's not...two sides of the same coin that think they are different. It's best to just acknowledge it as noise and move on without them.
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Jackstraw
Footballguy
I amazed after four years of this administration we have to pretend there's some kind of symmetry approaching facts.
We have witnessed corruption and lying on an historic scale.
It does a great disservice to objective reality and enables liars to keep lying. And it does great harm to our democracy.
Is there spin across the spectrum? Sure. But come on man. What we are seeing right now from conservatives would be comical if it wasn't so dangerous.
We have witnessed corruption and lying on an historic scale.
It does a great disservice to objective reality and enables liars to keep lying. And it does great harm to our democracy.
Is there spin across the spectrum? Sure. But come on man. What we are seeing right now from conservatives would be comical if it wasn't so dangerous.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
The examples you list aren't really apples-to-apples with mask-deniers, though. I bolded one above. There aren't "facts that point to the need for specific policy". There may be facts related to immigration, but as soon as you venture into the "facts point to a need for policy X versus policy Y" you've already gone into the opinion realm.
To draw a parallel to masks, "masks mitigate the spread of COVID" is a fact. Period, the end. "The fact that masks mitigate the spread of COVID means we should require that all humans wear a mask 24x7, even inside their own home" is an opinion.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
I'm not sure that's true. A few of the loudest voices makes it easy to believe they represent all voices on that side, but they don't. They just get the most headlines and ratings and turn the most profits.
I find that with deep discussion, most liberals carry a few classically conservative views and most conservatives carry a few classically liberal stances. But no one wants to report that in the fake news. Nearly all of us want the same things - To have basic needs met, to keep our kids safe, to have opportunity, to have free will.
Here's the "local" problem with politics, this "transition" Biden administration and Trump trying again in 2024 will further polarize some FBG users for the long haul, and their animosity/tribalism behavior to bleed out into the Shark Pool and FFA, to the point where the conservative base on site just leaves, and takes their subscription dollars with them. Professional sports itself is a good current example how woke/cancel culture/politicization just decimates your user/fan base and morale. The loudest vote is the one with your wallet. A conservative subscription dollar is worth as much, no more and no less, than a liberal subscription dollar. It would suck to see Bryant/Dodd/Bloom have to do a head count and look at lost revenue, on top of pandemic related losses, and then have to lay someone off over basically nothing at all ( Political anger here changes exactly zero public policy in real life)
It's some, not all, but some who keep screaming for retribution and lists are probably not seeing they could be party to someone losing their job. Go woke, go broke.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Democrat state representative in Michigan Looks to be putting out an olive branch?
https://twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1336721104262590467?s=21
https://twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1336721104262590467?s=21
Dickies
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
It took about a second and a half of researching this to see there was another side to it. I guess she's supposed to heal and move forward with the spectre of lynching over her head..... https://amp.detroitnews.com/amp/3852794001?__twitter_impression=true
Why can't the person who threatened to lynch her "heal and forgive"?
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2020/12/06/black-michigan-lawmaker-lynching-threat-voter-fraud-hearing/3852794001/
Doug B
Footballguy
Seems like Johnson was responding to a specific threat based on Thunderlips' link.
GROOT ... doesn't look like "Democrats making lists". One person posting one reaction to one specific threat against her person. Still ill-advised, but not the monolithic voice of an entire political party.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
And here comes the excuse making. I guess making threats is okay as long as it's done by Democrats?
I don't care what kind of threats she had, that does not excuse her from threatening the other side because that is clearly what she was doing. The Republicans had come out previously against those threats against her and she still posted this.
Stop making excuses for her.
I don't care what kind of threats she had, that does not excuse her from threatening the other side because that is clearly what she was doing. The Republicans had come out previously against those threats against her and she still posted this.
Stop making excuses for her.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
"The Democrats"? No ... there are many, many officeholders nationwide belonging to the Democratic party. AOC and allies don't speak for all of them. You've overgeneralized.
When AOC says something ... that's not "The Democratic Party" or "Democrats" saying something. Same for Biden, Obama, Pelosi, or any individual or group of individuals you care to name (e.g. "The Squad"). Same goes for Democratic voices on social media, traditional media, in the blogosphere, etc.
Exact same goes for the GOP, of course. Trump does not speak for the whole party. Neither does Ted Cruz, Chris Christie, Kasich, Giuliani, etc. Similarly, Tucker Carlson, Hannity, Glenn Beck, etc. don't speak for all conservatives.
Are you suggesting anyone is saying they shouldn't? I'd assume everyone would agree someone sending something horrible like that needs to dramatically change. I don't know the details but making death threats is obviously super serious.
But your post highlights another bigger thing. For some reason, there seems to be some odd assumption that healing, forgiving, generally not being a tool is somehow meant for the "other" side. Or it's meant for the one "who started it". I don't think it is.
Because in almost every situation, there is "more to the story". Few people just wake up one day and out of the blue decide to be a tool. For most people, it's in response to something. It's a perceived disrespect. A snarky comment. Or a real aggression towards them. Or a zillion other things. That's what I mean about the cycle.
My hope is we can drop so much of the "side" stuff and all of us try to be better.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Given their affinity for lists it’s really puzzling that Dems couldn’t get the coveted Santa Claus endorsement.
Excellent posting. I see almost everyone doing this. And we'd all do better if we checked ourselves a bit.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Making excuses <> providing context.
Weird that when context is provided, it turns out that it's two sides of the same coin...again affirming that the "side" your on isn't all that different than the "side" you don't like.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
One is a random nut job saying mean things on the phone and the other is an elected REPRESENTATIVE of a constituency that is telling her constituency to pretty much go to war.
The Commish
Footballguy
This matters to you now? Guess it's better late than never
One is a random nut job saying mean things on the phone and the other is an elected REPRESENTATIVE of a constituency that is telling her constituency to pretty much go to war.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
There's a 3 min. cut out there in which there's a bit more context. I think the original meme making its way around the Trump Supporter Sewing Circles isn't very honest.
One is a random nut job saying mean things on the phone and the other is an elected REPRESENTATIVE of a constituency that is telling her constituency to pretty much go to war.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
So it's okay for an elected representative to behave this way because the other guy started it? Neat
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
So it's okay for an elected representative to behave this way because the other guy started it? Neat
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Not sure how telling Trumpers to "watch out" and advocating for violence against them can be taken out of context but, boy, they really are trying hard in here!Ramblin Wreck said:
Those extra 3 WHOLE minutes tell a different story? Oy vey!
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
I see your posts day in and day out repeating this nonsense. You realize that repeating it doesn't make it true, right?zoonation said:
It takes TWO to tango, my friend. You guys need to stop acting like you have some moral high ground somewhere. Pro-Tip: you don't. No one does.
zoonation
Footballguy
Oh, it is true. You calling it nonsense doesn't change that fact. Just read his twitter account. Nothing but lies in support of an attempt to ruin American democracy so he can hold onto power. The post election stuff is Orwellian. And the flock laps it up. You can't reason with people like that.
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