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The Schism - an American Tale (1 Viewer)

The facts that I see - which are rarely if ever reported - disagree with your sentiment.  White people are not the biggest source of hate crime or interracial violence in the U.S. - it’s blacks.  According to FBI data, from 2016 to 2020, black people were more than twice as likely to commit a hate crime as whites.

Also, the greatest share of interracial violence, not classified as a hate crime, is committed by black offenders against white victims, according to the Department of Justice.

“There were 5.3 times as many violent incidents committed by black offenders against white victims (472,570) as were committed by white offenders against black victims (89,980),” the department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics said in a September 2020 report.

This statistic shows that in the U.S., blacks commit the biggest share of interracial crimes between blacks and whites: 84 percent.

Are there whites out there who operate with hate in their hearts towards blacks?  Of course.  Has that number been increasing in the last 10 years?  It appears so.  But the numbers tell us that the bigger issue is black racism towards whites, and black violence in general.  THAT is a far bigger problem than white supremacy.  But don’t dare say that in public.  Not allowed.
Even if true, and I doubt it is, none of that contradicts my point, which is that "conservatives" aren't a monolithic group.  It's absolutely true to say there are lots of racists out there.

Back to the FBI data, if I remember correctly, towns/cities aren't required to report their data, and many don't.  Typically, it's rural areas that don't, at least moreso than urban and suburban areas.

 
You raise a good point - the Religious Right still has a disproportionate impact on the Republican platform - one that is often at odds with personal freedoms.  That notion  bothers me, and always has.

But overall the Republican Party is the party of smaller Government (as opposed to Democrats).  That much isn’t debatable.
Of course it's debatable.  I'm literally debating it right now.

The GOP claims to be for smaller government, but at every chance, it spends just as much (just without taxing to pay for it), imposes on freedoms just as much (just in different ways), etc.  The results are clear; the GOP loves big government, but just doesn't want to say so.

 
I’ve been through these debates long enough to know that it’s not a battle worth fighting.  America is fundamentally incapable of having honest, open discussions on race.
This one reminds me of Men in Black and K's quote about people and a person.

An American is capable of having honest, open discussions on race.  America as a whole isn't.

 
The facts that I see - which are rarely if ever reported - disagree with your sentiment.  White people are not the biggest source of hate crime or interracial violence in the U.S. - it’s blacks.  According to FBI data, from 2016 to 2020, black people were more than twice as likely to commit a hate crime as whites.

Also, the greatest share of interracial violence, not classified as a hate crime, is committed by black offenders against white victims, according to the Department of Justice.

“There were 5.3 times as many violent incidents committed by black offenders against white victims (472,570) as were committed by white offenders against black victims (89,980),” the department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics said in a September 2020 report.

This statistic shows that in the U.S., blacks commit the biggest share of interracial crimes between blacks and whites: 84 percent.

Are there whites out there who operate with hate in their hearts towards blacks?  Of course.  Has that number been increasing in the last 10 years?  It appears so.  But the numbers tell us that the bigger issue is black racism towards whites, and black violence in general.  THAT is a far bigger problem than white supremacy.  But don’t dare say that in public.  Not allowed.
I am confused.  I was looking at that chart and the biggest number is anti-black or anti-AA at the top right, and then under offender the biggest number was white.   

HERE is a different link that says similar:

Of the 6,780 known offenders:

55.1% were White

21.2% were Black or African American

15.7% race unknown

 
Left/Dem/Blue/Liberal/Irreligious 

  • Pro-Choice
  • Governmental oversight, taxation and redistribution of wealth
  • LBGTQ+ supporters
  • Open Borders
  • More gun control
  • Freedom from religion in schools & government
VS.

Right/Rep/Red/Conservative/Religious

  • Pro-Life
  • Limited government
  • Traditional Family values
  • Secured borders
  • 2nd Amendment rights
  • Freedom of religion
I'm curious as to why you make this distinction. The absence of religion in public schools and government is a Constitutional issue, not religious or party. The right should absolutely demand our public schools and government remain neutral. Or would be ok with the Jewish, Muslim, or Satanic faiths being promoted by teachers? Or your tax money supporting the Church of Satan?

 
I'm curious as to why you make this distinction. The absence of religion in public schools and government is a Constitutional issue, not religious or party. The right should absolutely demand our public schools and government remain neutral. Or would be ok with the Jewish, Muslim, or Satanic faiths being promoted by teachers? Or your tax money supporting the Church of Satan?
One could make similar arguments about the 2nd amendment rights (and they often do).

I'm not making these distinctions because I believe it or want it to be so, I'm observing what I see/hear and classifying the groups as such.  There is a large enough contingent of each of the classifications I listed to group them as I did.  It is merely an observational list with no support or condemnation implied.

 
Back to morality, interesting conversation between Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro. 

Harris argues that morality is function of our evolution towards a better collective experience.
When humanity is able to keep the "collective experience" as top of mind, sure this can work.

But as soon as anything outweighs that on the hierarchy of needs, this kind of morality goes out the window.  That includes things as essential to survival as food and shelter or as frivolous as to what luxury possessions you have.  Why sacrifice your pleasure for someone else's?  Selfishness vs. selflessness is the key component to morality that humanity just doesn't generate separate from higher thinking.

One thing religion has done throughout history is generate a social impetus for morality.  Since survival is very high on the hierarchy of needs, the implication that morality is tied to eternal life is a much stronger driving factor for the populace as a whole than "a better collective experience" could ever be.

Also, without a framework to work from (i.e. the Bible or another set of specific standards/guidelines), the idea of what a "better collective experience" is a moving target and subject to whims and tangents that could really disrupt any kind of consistent order.  As soon as enough people believe "better collective experience" to mean healthy, strong and attractive we get into all kinds of things that would be considered immoral to many people, similar to the idea of superior line of genetics with all other weaker lines to be systematically eliminated.  Then you would run into the idea that might makes right and a new order is in place that believes it is working toward a better collective experience by eliminating all that generate a less than ideal experience.  You get people like Thanos and Nazis who generally to their core believe they are bettering society because they have a different idea of "better collective experience".

I believe this is much of what @rockaction was indicating with his Nietzsche posts/references, although I haven't taken the time to read them.

 
When humanity is able to keep the "collective experience" as top of mind, sure this can work.

But as soon as anything outweighs that on the hierarchy of needs, this kind of morality goes out the window.  That includes things as essential to survival as food and shelter or as frivolous as to what luxury possessions you have.  Why sacrifice your pleasure for someone else's?  Selfishness vs. selflessness is the key component to morality that humanity just doesn't generate separate from higher thinking.

One thing religion has done throughout history is generate a social impetus for morality.  Since survival is very high on the hierarchy of needs, the implication that morality is tied to eternal life is a much stronger driving factor for the populace as a whole than "a better collective experience" could ever be.

Also, without a framework to work from (i.e. the Bible or another set of specific standards/guidelines), the idea of what a "better collective experience" is a moving target and subject to whims and tangents that could really disrupt any kind of consistent order.  As soon as enough people believe "better collective experience" to mean healthy, strong and attractive we get into all kinds of things that would be considered immoral to many people, similar to the idea of superior line of genetics with all other weaker lines to be systematically eliminated.  Then you would run into the idea that might makes right and a new order is in place that believes it is working toward a better collective experience by eliminating all that generate a less than ideal experience.  You get people like Thanos and Nazis who generally to their core believe they are bettering society because they have a different idea of "better collective experience".

I believe this is much of what @rockaction was indicating with his Nietzsche posts/references, although I haven't taken the time to read them.
I believe what Harris is driving at is morality isn't a conscious determination. We don't think about what is right and wrong; it's a learned complex calculus of our brains driven by experience. An example he lays out in a Ted Talk is to show pictures of a rock, a bug, and a chimp. He asks, "why don't we have ethical obligations towards rocks?" and then answers "because we don't think rocks can suffer. And if we're more concerned about our fellow primates than insects, as indeed we are, it's because we think they're exposed to a wider range of potential happiness and suffering." 

Regarding the idea of religion as a driving force, it seems to me biology and evolution provide a more direct promotion of what is good and bad for our species. On one hand killing is bad because god forbids it vs. the evolutionary impacts of killing off a portion of your species while fostering an environment where our own death is increased. 

Also, I don't think you can say religiously based morality is absolute. It changes as society evolves. 

 
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Regarding the idea of religion as a driving force, it seems to me biology and evolution provide a more direct promotion of what is good and bad for our species. On one hand killing is bad because god forbids it vs. the evolutionary impacts of killing off a portion of your species while fostering an environment where our own death is increased. 
This is how people talk themselves into eugenics.  By turning "our species" into the unit of analysis, as opposed to individual people.

 
Does morality come from God?

For morality to come from God, God would have to exist. Since we are still waiting for a god’s existence to be demonstrated, this entire argument is moot. We could end the argument there, and tell theists to come back when they can show at least one god is not a figment of overactive imaginations. However, to explore the argument, we can assume a hypothetical god does exist and see where that takes us.

First, we should ask how God knows what is moral. Plato wrote a dialogue in which Socrates asks Euthyphro “Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?” This is known as the Euthyphro dilemma.

If God is merely an agent advocating some universal morality, then morality exists independently of God and, given enough time, humans could discover it through reasoning. In this case, we would not need God—the only role for God would be to help speed up the process of discovery. God would be unnecessary.

On the other hand, if something is moral because God commands it, and for no other reason, then morality is arbitrary. We would be unable to reason our way to such a morality because it would not be based on reason. Furthermore, God could change his mind at any time, and reverse earlier moral commands. In this case, God would be necessary for morality, but morality would not be objective, it would be wholly subjective.

This logic leads us to the conclusion that God cannot be the author of objective morality. If there is objective morality, God would be a spectator to it—just as we are. And theists who argue that God is the source of objective morality must be wrong.

Some theists do not attempt to claim that divine morality is objective. Instead, they accept that God’s morality is inherently subjective and arbitrary, but there are fatal problems with this position too. The first problem is we have to decide which god we should take our morality from (more properly, which god and which religion). This is not a trivial problem.

Let’s say we have a few hundred gods to choose from and a few thousand religions. Look at them all, and you will find a core of common moral commands, but there are disagreements even within the core commands. For example, all religions outlaw killing humans but they all have exceptions where killing is permitted, and the exceptions vary between religions. For example, the god of Abraham permitted killing gay people, and the Aztec sun god permitted killing young girls in acts of sacrifice.

Move beyond the core moral commands that relate to homicide, theft, and assault, and into areas such as marriage, the treatment of children and sexual behavior, and the discrepancies between religions become enormous.

How then, should you choose a god and a religion from which to source your morality? You could try to find a god that exists and a religion that is true, but there is no known way to determine these things, so whatever you decide will be necessarily arbitrary. In fact, most people resign themselves to making an arbitrary decision by simply following the god and religion their families follow.

If you accept that a god’s moral commands are necessarily arbitrary, one option is not open to you—you cannot examine the moral commands of different gods and choose the one that makes sense to you because when morality is arbitrary, your moral intuitions are rendered worthless.

Theists who say their morality comes from God face an unpalatable conclusion. They must either accept that they follow an arbitrary morality from an arbitrary god and an arbitrary religion, or they must accept that their god is not necessary for humans to understand morality. There is worse to come.

Followers of large, world religions might console themselves that a billion or more people share their morality, and that must account for something. But it does not. For a start, truth is not a democracy. The fact that many people accept an idea does not make it true. It is not even true that followers of any particular religion share the same morality. For example, there are some 2.2 billion Christians, yet we could write a long list of moral issues on which Christians take divergent views (despite all believing in the same god and all reading, more or less, the same scriptures). Just three issues will make the point: abortion, the treatment of gay people and the role of women in the church.

There is only one fair conclusion here; if you truly attempt to take your morality from a god, you have no idea whether your actions are moral or not. You are swimming in a sea of confusion and moral uncertainty. Quite honestly, you are lost.

Can we be moral without God?

If relying on a god makes morality impossibly difficult, what happens when we take gods out of the picture entirely?

We must begin by asking what it means to be moral. Consulting a dictionary won’t help much. You’ll find that morality is concerned with right and wrong behavior, which begs the question of what is right and wrong behavior?

The first point is, behavior can only be moral or immoral if it affects other humans. No matter how you treat a rock, your actions are neither morally right or wrong. Actions have a moral dimension only when they affect other humans (or other sentient beings). Nor is a moral dimension attached to actions that are the result of chance or the natural world. For example, if lightning or a tsunami kills people, we do not say these events are morally wrong.

So morality must be about how humans are affected by human actions. But what is right and what is wrong? Some actions seem to be clear-cut. It would be perverse to argue that bathing your baby daughter in battery acid is morally right. No doubt, we could think of a long list of actions that are equally wrong. It would also be easy to make a list of actions that are unequivocally good.

Comparing the two lists allows us to generalize things that are morally wrong and to distinguish them from things that are morally right. Actions that unnecessarily cause suffering or harm to humans are morally wrong, and actions that contribute to human wellbeing are morally right. Once we have criteria for right and wrong, we can say that some actions, such as randomly hitting a person with a hammer, are objectively morally wrong and other actions are objectively morally right. This logic has two important implications: there are objective moral truths that can be discovered using reason (and science), and the process does not require belief in a god.

Many people will find this conclusion puzzling. We know that moral standards change over time and we know that different societies have different moral standards. Surely this means that morality is relative and not objective? No, it does not. That objective moral standards exist does not mean it is always easy to determine what they should be. For example, when an action affects many people and results in harm to some and benefits to others, it is difficult to determine its moral value. In other cases, the moral value of an action is difficult to determine because its long-term consequences are hard to predict. Governments often confront such such dilemmas.

Sometimes moral standards are set in the self-interest of rulers, or of a subset of the people affected. Sometimes standards change because people become aware of the harm an old standard was causing. To reject the existence of objective moral truths because standards change over time would be like rejecting mathematics because there are currently some problems that cannot be solved.

If we look across a wide sweep of time, say the last 2,000 years, it is clear that moral standards have improved in many parts of the world. For example, slavery is now widely outlawed, children are protected from forced marriage, minorities are protected from discrimination, and gay people are no longer killed.

It is perverse to argue that only theists have a basis for morality when the opposite is true. Before accepting moral standards from a god you should at least be able to demonstrate that particular god exists. But that, most fundamental thing, no theist can do. The theist’s belief is founded on faith, and so is his morality. That error is not without consequences. The great religions of the world are all ancient, and they carry with them the morality of past ages. That is why the fundamentalists of these religions vigorously oppose modern laws that repudiate scriptural commandments, such legalizing same-sex marriage.

Divine commands are also the warrant for radical groups, such as ISIS, to hurl gay men from high buildings and to take girls captured in battle as slaves.

Conclusions

God cannot be the source of objective morality. If objective morality exists, it exists independently of any gods. A god could be the source of an arbitrary morality, but this approach enmeshes theists in a web of intractable problems; it is a barrier to genuine moral progress and leaves theists with a disparate assortment of values, some of which are an affront to common sense.

Atheists, far from having no basis for moral values, can base their values soundly on reason and science. These same tools that have been used with spectacular success to discover the physical world can be used to understand the moral realm. We can be moral without gods.

It’s time for atheists to change the narrative and demand that theists explain how they can be moral when they deny a role for reason, and rely instead on books written by Iron Age men whose morals have long since been superseded.

 
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Comparing the two lists allows us to generalize things that are morally wrong and to distinguish them from things that are morally right. Actions that unnecessarily cause suffering or harm to humans are morally wrong, and actions that contribute to human wellbeing are morally right. Once we have criteria for right and wrong, we can say that some actions, such as randomly hitting a person with a hammer, are objectively morally wrong and other actions are objectively morally right. This logic has two important implications: there are objective moral truths that can be discovered using reason (and science), and the process does not require belief in a god.
This drives at the heart of Harris' argument. It also synchronizes with the belief that we have no free will. We're complex organisms ping-ponging off each other with the innate purpose to continue surviving. It's a shocking premise to consider, but the more I think about it, the more I agree.  

 
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This drives at the heart of Harris' argument. It also synchronizes with the belief that we have no free will. We're complex organisms ping-ponging off each other with the innate purpose to continue surviving. It's a shocking premise to consider, but the more I think about it, the more I agree.  
I have to watch your Harris video later tonight. My office blocks YouTube.

 
There was a claim made that countries are better off when more people believe in god(s). To counter:

Why Are Atheists Generally Smarter Than Religious People?
 Scientists ran a meta-analysis of 63 studies and found that religious people tend to be less intelligent than nonreligious people. The association was stronger among college students and the general public than for those younger than college age, they found. The association was also stronger for religious beliefs, rather than religious behavior, according to the meta-analysis, published in 2013 in the journal Personality and Social Psychology Review.

Misinformation and Facts about Secularism and Religion
Criminal Behavior:

Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread." He also states: "Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."

Within the United States, we see the same pattern. Citing census data, he writes: "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."

And these findings are not limited to murder rates, as rates of all violent crime tend to be higher in "religious" states. Zuckerman also points out that atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%).

Other Findings of Interest:

Happiness: The most secular nations in the world report the highest levels of happiness among their population.

Altruism: Secular nations such as those in Scandinavia donate the most money and supportive aid, per capita, to poorer nations. Zuckerman also reports that two studies show that, during the Holocaust, "the more secular people were, the more likely they were to rescue and help persecuted Jews."

Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.

 
This drives at the heart of Harris' argument. It also synchronizes with the belief that we have no free will. We're complex organisms ping-ponging off each other with the innate purpose to continue surviving. It's a shocking premise to consider, but the more I think about it, the more I agree.  
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill

 
The facts that I see - which are rarely if ever reported - disagree with your sentiment.  White people are not the biggest source of hate crime or interracial violence in the U.S. - it’s blacks.  According to FBI data, from 2016 to 2020, black people were more than twice as likely to commit a hate crime as whites.

Also, the greatest share of interracial violence, not classified as a hate crime, is committed by black offenders against white victims, according to the Department of Justice.

“There were 5.3 times as many violent incidents committed by black offenders against white victims (472,570) as were committed by white offenders against black victims (89,980),” the department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics said in a September 2020 report.

This statistic shows that in the U.S., blacks commit the biggest share of interracial crimes between blacks and whites: 84 percent.

Are there whites out there who operate with hate in their hearts towards blacks?  Of course.  Has that number been increasing in the last 10 years?  It appears so.  But the numbers tell us that the bigger issue is black racism towards whites, and black violence in general.  THAT is a far bigger problem than white supremacy.  But don’t dare say that in public.  Not allowed.
So why do you suppose these facts are what they are?  Do you think socioeconomics has something to do with it, or are black folks just mean?

 
If God is merely an agent advocating some universal morality, then morality exists independently of God and, given enough time, humans could discover it through reasoning. In this case, we would not need God—the only role for God would be to help speed up the process of discovery. God would be unnecessary.

On the other hand, if something is moral because God commands it, and for no other reason, then morality is arbitrary. We would be unable to reason our way to such a morality because it would not be based on reason. Furthermore, God could change his mind at any time, and reverse earlier moral commands. In this case, God would be necessary for morality, but morality would not be objective, it would be wholly subjective.

This logic leads us to the conclusion that God cannot be the author of objective morality. If there is objective morality, God would be a spectator to it—just as we are. And theists who argue that God is the source of objective morality must be wrong.
This helps to explain why I'm agnostic/buddhist.  Buddha used common sense reasoning to explain lack of morality due to objectification.  This objectification leads to different "realms of existence" which encapsulate among other things the seven deadly sins and what it means to walk in the footsteps of Christ.  Jesus identified himself as the alpha and omega because his target audience (Jews enslaved by Romans) needed hope and a justification for right thoughts and right actions in challenging times, but ultimately his message was a message of love telling people to stop living in an objectified world.

 
Amused to Death said:
Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread." He also states: "Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."

Within the United States, we see the same pattern. Citing census data, he writes: "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."

And these findings are not limited to murder rates, as rates of all violent crime tend to be higher in "religious" states. Zuckerman also points out that atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%).
I’d argue that there’s no causal connection between religion and murder rates.  People look to religion to relieve their suffering - and it’s the underlying conditions of their suffering (poverty, drug addiction, etc) that has led to those higher murder rates.

 
KarmaPolice said:
On 6/21/2022 at 9:05 PM, ekbeats said:
The facts that I see - which are rarely if ever reported - disagree with your sentiment.  White people are not the biggest source of hate crime or interracial violence in the U.S. - it’s blacks.  According to FBI data, from 2016 to 2020, black people were more than twice as likely to commit a hate crime as whites.

Also, the greatest share of interracial violence, not classified as a hate crime, is committed by black offenders against white victims, according to the Department of Justice.

“There were 5.3 times as many violent incidents committed by black offenders against white victims (472,570) as were committed by white offenders against black victims (89,980),” the department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics said in a September 2020 report.

This statistic shows that in the U.S., blacks commit the biggest share of interracial crimes between blacks and whites: 84 percent.

Are there whites out there who operate with hate in their hearts towards blacks?  Of course.  Has that number been increasing in the last 10 years?  It appears so.  But the numbers tell us that the bigger issue is black racism towards whites, and black violence in general.  THAT is a far bigger problem than white supremacy.  But don’t dare say that in public.  Not allowed.
Expand  
I am confused.  I was looking at that chart and the biggest number is anti-black or anti-AA at the top right, and then under offender the biggest number was white.   

HERE is a different link that says similar:

Of the 6,780 known offenders:

55.1% were White

21.2% were Black or African American

15.7% race unknown


I would ask him to break down how he came to his conclusion from the numbers posted on that FBI site but his post is a cut and paste from some right wing site not known for its accuracy.  And then complains how America can't have an "honest discussion" on race.  Pretty thinly veiled.  

 

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