Why is the GOP and Joe Biden against cancelling student debt?

[TwinTurbo 697]

My thoughts:

1. blanket loan forgiveness is a bad idea

2. There are thousands of degree granting post-secondary institutions in the US. Most of them grant what are essentially worthless degrees or degrees that are not worth the price paid. Some of them shouldn't even continue to operate as a business but they continue raising prices because of #3. 

3. Federal student aid accounts for most of the price increases. The more students can borrow, the more colleges can charge. Increasing eligibility for Federal aid over time had the undesired effect of making college less affordable for everyone in general. Decrease the eligibility for those students who can receive federal aid and prices will drop as a result. 

4. Offer more online classes and increase class sizes virtually. The pandemic proved that nobody needs expensive real estate with small class sizes. That backwards business model hopefully ended in 2020.

[MAC_32 12,844]

31 minutes ago, Manster said:

How bout you do your due diligence when choosing a career path.....or better yet, how about your parents help you understand what your choices as an adult mean. 

Why are colleges going to lower tuition for majors if people line up for em?  If there wasn't demand, it would take care of itself.

So no, I don't want the gub to swoop in and make regulations....and I don't want them to bail people out for bad financial decisions....I want people to take responsibility for themselves....why is that so wrong?  

An article on success rates of first generation college students

I think this is an important perspective to consider. 

[Manster 822]

9 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

An article on success rates of first generation college students

I think this is an important perspective to consider. 

I get it.  Im a first generation college graduate in my family.  I took out loans for my education.  I had very little support along the way.  I went to high school in a very small, rural community with very little college preparedness. 

I also had skin in the game, and realized without a safety net, I had better make it happen.

What did I learn?  There needs to be better preparedness for kids planning on secondary education.  School guidance counselors need to be frank with kids about their choices and the reality of what may come.  And in general, Americans need to wake up from the "traditional college experience".......kids should be looking at college as a means to have a successful career......or don't go.....go to trade school....go into the military.....go work at Les Schwabs

[Drunken Cowboy 1,524]

1 hour ago, TwinTurbo said:

My thoughts:

1. blanket loan forgiveness is a bad idea

2. There are thousands of degree granting post-secondary institutions in the US. Most of them grant what are essentially worthless degrees or degrees that are not worth the price paid. Some of them shouldn't even continue to operate as a business but they continue raising prices because of #3. 

3. Federal student aid accounts for most of the price increases. The more students can borrow, the more colleges can charge. Increasing eligibility for Federal aid over time had the undesired effect of making college less affordable for everyone in general. Decrease the eligibility for those students who can receive federal aid and prices will drop as a result. 

4. Offer more online classes and increase class sizes virtually. The pandemic proved that nobody needs expensive real estate with small class sizes. That backwards business model hopefully ended in 2020.

Hard to disagree with a post more.

2. There are some bad institutions, but the idea that most grant worthless degrees is ridiculous. 

3. This is a popular talking point and maybe a contributing factor at most predatory for profit schools, but not at most institutions. 

4. This is completely the opposite of reality. Virual classes are clearly less effective than in person. The pandemic has made this completely clear. Nobody is talking about how much better students are learning. There is however a lot of concern nobody is learning anything this year.

Online classes don't mean you can have larger class sizes. For education to effective it needs to be interactive. Doing this online is more work than in person. 

[Manster 822]

1 hour ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

Hard to disagree with a post more.

2. There are some bad institutions, but the idea that most grant worthless degrees is ridiculous. 

3. This is a popular talking point and maybe a contributing factor at most predatory for profit schools, but not at most institutions. 

4. This is completely the opposite of reality. Virual classes are clearly less effective than in person. The pandemic has made this completely clear. Nobody is talking about how much better students are learning. There is however a lot of concern nobody is learning anything this year.

Online classes don't mean you can have larger class sizes. For education to effective it needs to be interactive. Doing this online is more work than in person. 

#4....I know my kids in primary school are receiving an abbreviated version of what they should be....theyre getting straight A's without putting in a ton of effort.

I know my degree in science wouldn't have really been possible on line.  We did a ton of field work and hands on labs.....virtual can, and should be an effective adjunct, but not the main approach.

[IvanKaramazov 22,621]

8 hours ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

4. This is completely the opposite of reality. Virual classes are clearly less effective than in person. The pandemic has made this completely clear. Nobody is talking about how much better students are learning. There is however a lot of concern nobody is learning anything this year.

Online classes don't mean you can have larger class sizes. For education to effective it needs to be interactive. Doing this online is more work than in person. 

I agree, and I also want to add that at my institution, our online classes are generally smaller than our face-to-face classes.  They're more work and require that you give students quite a bit more individual attention than traditional courses.  

[parasaurolophus 7,597]

13 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I didn't say you had to pay for anything.   

Manster seemed to be upset about people getting degrees in fields that don't pay well and struggling to pay for that schooling.  

I am upset about these dumb degrees. They shouldnt exist in public univerisities. They are worthless degrees. We dont need more people studying art. We dont need more people analyzing art. We dont need more grad school students writing stupid papers about stupid papers. 

If we wanted to truly foster the arts we wouldnt start by creating programs that have high prices for entry with terrible long term results. 

So yeah. Screw those degrees. 

[The Commish 13,984]

I'm trying to understand how the "meaning" of a degree (not really sure what that even means) is tied directly to where the money of said degree is coming from

It reads like "if you go to Harvard and get your law degree paying for it yourself it 'means' x.  If you go to Harvard and get your law degree and someone else is paying for it it 'means' y".  I don't get it.  In the end, it's a law degree from Harvard.  Are people under the impression that an employer is going to ask how the education was funded or something to determine validity of the degree?

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

3 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

I am upset about these dumb degrees. They shouldnt exist in public univerisities. They are worthless degrees. We dont need more people studying art. We dont need more people analyzing art. We dont need more grad school students writing stupid papers about stupid papers. 

If we wanted to truly foster the arts we wouldnt start by creating programs that have high prices for entry with terrible long term results. 

So yeah. Screw those degrees. 

couldn't disagree more.  

[supermike80 1,633]

I'm not interested in discussing the "value" of a degree.  What I might think of as wasteful someone else might think of as a truly enlightening field. Art music and education definitely come to mind.

I am OK with some method to bankrupt out of these.  To me that means it it needs to be reviewed by a judge before it's discharged and that means someone is at least looking at the individual situation and not just throwing a blanket over the entire issue.

 

[TwinTurbo 697]

On 2/23/2021 at 11:17 PM, Drunken Cowboy said:

Hard to disagree with a post more.

2. There are some bad institutions, but the idea that most grant worthless degrees is ridiculous. 

3. This is a popular talking point and maybe a contributing factor at most predatory for profit schools, but not at most institutions. 

4. This is completely the opposite of reality. Virual classes are clearly less effective than in person. The pandemic has made this completely clear. Nobody is talking about how much better students are learning. There is however a lot of concern nobody is learning anything this year.

Online classes don't mean you can have larger class sizes. For education to effective it needs to be interactive. Doing this online is more work than in person. 

I respect your opinion and acknowledge many people would agree with you. However, if a college can't get positive results from virtual classes attended by adult students, they are doing it wrong. What the pandemic has made clear in many cases, is that adults can be very productive working and learning from home. Another effort is to move education into virtual reality where you can interact, simulate, learn, and train all remotely. And many companies are already working on those types of solutions. 

[Stealthycat 1,815]

I feel pressured to take a loan and buy an automobile (get a student loan). If I buy an automobile (get a college degree), I could get a better job, make more money. Now, I could settle for a lesser car (2 year college, technical school) but I want a really nice car (a 4 year degree at a D1 school, medical school etc)

I am making the choice to take the loans .... but later, when I don't like the job I have or the money I make and hate the loan I have (all my choices) .... I want the Fed Govt to pay off my automobile loan and I want to keep it too. Now, other people have bought auto's and took out loans and they paid all those loans themselves but me ? I want the Fed Govt to do it for me

kinda like that isn't it ?

Edited February 25 by Stealthycat

[Stealthycat 1,815]

..

Edited February 25 by Stealthycat

[GoBirds 10,397]

4 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I feel pressured to take a loan and buy an automobile (get a student loan). If I buy an automobile (get a college degree), I could get a better job, make more money. Now, I could settle for a lesser car (2 year college, technical school) but I want a really nice car (a 4 year degree at a D1 school, medical school etc)

I am making the choice to take the loans .... but later, when I don't like the job I have or the money I make and hate the loan I have (all my choices) .... I want the Fed Govt to pay off my automobile loan and I want to keep it too. Now, other people have bought auto's and took out loans and they paid all those loans themselves but me ? I want the Fed Govt to do it for me

kinda like that isn't it ?

Sounds like that’s where we are at and exactly what Biden has dangled in front of his supporters as a completely unfair handout. 

[IvanKaramazov 22,621]

7 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I feel pressured to take a loan and buy an automobile (get a student loan). If I buy an automobile (get a college degree), I could get a better job, make more money. Now, I could settle for a lesser car (2 year college, technical school) but I want a really nice car (a 4 year degree at a D1 school, medical school etc)

I am making the choice to take the loans .... but later, when I don't like the job I have or the money I make and hate the loan I have (all my choices) .... I want the Fed Govt to pay off my automobile loan and I want to keep it too. Now, other people have bought auto's and took out loans and they paid all those loans themselves but me ? I want the Fed Govt to do it for me

kinda like that isn't it ?

This is a pretty good analogy, but it misses the point of student loan forgiveness.  Young-ish college graduates are becoming an increasingly important part of the Democratic party's coalition, and part of what political parties exist for is to hand out rewards to their members.  The mistake you're making is in thinking that this is about some sort of principled argument as opposed to a straight-up spoils system.  The push for student loan forgiveness makes a lot more sense if you think of it in raw "punish your enemies and reward your friends" terms.  

[shadrap 1,852]

9 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This is a pretty good analogy, but it misses the point of student loan forgiveness.  Young-ish college graduates are becoming an increasingly important part of the Democratic party's coalition, and part of what political parties exist for is to hand out rewards to their members.  The mistake you're making is in thinking that this is about some sort of principled argument as opposed to a straight-up spoils system.  The push for student loan forgiveness makes a lot more sense if you think of it in raw "punish your enemies and reward your friends" terms.  

yea, we are way past the point of passing legislation for the good of the people, instead its for votes or paying off donors.  IMO

[dawgtrails 1,157]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:26 AM, parasaurolophus said:

I am upset about these dumb degrees. They shouldnt exist in public univerisities. They are worthless degrees. We dont need more people studying art. We dont need more people analyzing art. We dont need more grad school students writing stupid papers about stupid papers. 

If we wanted to truly foster the arts we wouldnt start by creating programs that have high prices for entry with terrible long term results. 

So yeah. Screw those degrees. 

`You have a really narrow view on what artists learn and do for a living after graduating with art degrees. They become graphic designers, furniture builders, web designers, filmmakers, etc. 

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

11 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

`You have a really narrow view on what artists learn and do for a living after graduating with art degrees. They become graphic designers, furniture builders, web designers, filmmakers, etc. 

That's not even touching on the fact that people's brains are different, and that's what they excel at.   I guess they shouldn't be able to pursue that knowledge because they are "worthless degrees".  

[The Commish 13,984]

37 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This is a pretty good analogy, but it misses the point of student loan forgiveness.  Young-ish college graduates are becoming an increasingly important part of the Democratic party's coalition, and part of what political parties exist for is to hand out rewards to their members.  The mistake you're making is in thinking that this is about some sort of principled argument as opposed to a straight-up spoils system.  The push for student loan forgiveness makes a lot more sense if you think of it in raw "punish your enemies and reward your friends" terms.  

Generally agree here....the student loan debt shtick is the Dem equivalent to the tax cuts to the really rich and big business shtick in the GOP.

[NorvilleBarnes 4,294]

6 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

19 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

`You have a really narrow view on what artists learn and do for a living after graduating with art degrees. They become graphic designers, furniture builders, web designers, filmmakers, etc. 

That's not even touching on the fact that people's brains are different, and that's what they excel at.   I guess they shouldn't be able to pursue that knowledge because they are "worthless degrees".  

Please. People can get any degree they want. And if they take out a loan to get that degree then all these brilliant filmmakers and web designers with their great big different brains can pay their own freaking debts.

[dawgtrails 1,157]

13 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Please. People can get any degree they want. And if they take out a loan to get that degree then all these brilliant filmmakers and web designers with their great big different brains can pay their own freaking debts.

Dude. I didn't mention a single thing about debt forgiveness in my post. I was responding to para and his take that art degrees shouldn't exist. 

[Gatorman 130]

1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This is a pretty good analogy, but it misses the point of student loan forgiveness.  Young-ish college graduates are becoming an increasingly important part of the Democratic party's coalition, and part of what political parties exist for is to hand out rewards to their members.  The mistake you're making is in thinking that this is about some sort of principled argument as opposed to a straight-up spoils system.  The push for student loan forgiveness makes a lot more sense if you think of it in raw "punish your enemies and reward your friends" terms.  

Not sure I agree with this.  If you think a strong middle class is what is needed to keep this country moving, then putting a drag on peoples earnings with student loan debt really hinders that.  I am fortunate enough that my kids both have degrees at really good institutions without going into debt (Daddy paid), but even with that, their job prospects are not what I expected. The fact that they are debt free gives them some options, but I can only imagine how bad it would be for them in this economy with student loan debt hanging over them.

 

20- 30 year olds' are buying houses later, starting families later, and generally moving out later than we did.  Most of this has to do with debt servicing.   Get rid of a lot of that debt (which was kind of predatory if you think about it to begin with) and I think you see a different world.

[NorvilleBarnes 4,294]

48 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

Dude. I didn't mention a single thing about debt forgiveness in my post. I was responding to para and his take that art degrees shouldn't exist. 

Fair enough, apologies. But para was responding to Karma police who was responding to Manster who was responding to djmitch who was responding to . . . in a thread about debt forgiveness.

[Murph 1,340]

1 hour ago, Gatorman said:

20- 30 year olds' are buying houses later, starting families later, and generally moving out later than we did.  Most of this has to do with debt servicing.   Get rid of a lot of that debt (which was kind of predatory if you think about it to begin with) and I think you see a different world.

Can you elaborate on this? Where are young people without established credit getting better terms on unsecured loans? Loans that, if used properly, can greatly increase ones lifetime earning potential.

[jm192 1,953]

1 hour ago, Gatorman said:

Not sure I agree with this.  If you think a strong middle class is what is needed to keep this country moving, then putting a drag on peoples earnings with student loan debt really hinders that.  I am fortunate enough that my kids both have degrees at really good institutions without going into debt (Daddy paid), but even with that, their job prospects are not what I expected. The fact that they are debt free gives them some options, but I can only imagine how bad it would be for them in this economy with student loan debt hanging over them.

 

20- 30 year olds' are buying houses later, starting families later, and generally moving out later than we did.  Most of this has to do with debt servicing.   Get rid of a lot of that debt (which was kind of predatory if you think about it to begin with) and I think you see a different world.

Then don't take out debt.  *Shrugs*

A lot of people never go to college.  A lot of people go later.  A lot of people work and pay for college.  A lot of people go to community college so it costs less.  A lot of people go into fields that they know will be in high demand vs their true passion so they can pay their loans.  

Having to make choice is life.  I don't think we just "get rid of the debt so we can see a different world."  

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

1 hour ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Fair enough, apologies. But para was responding to Karma police who was responding to Manster who was responding to djmitch who was responding to . . . in a thread about debt forgiveness.

Lol.   I didn't say anything about debt forgiveness either. 

 

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

27 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Then don't take out debt.  *Shrugs*

A lot of people never go to college.  A lot of people go later.  A lot of people work and pay for college.  A lot of people go to community college so it costs less.  A lot of people go into fields that they know will be in high demand vs their true passion so they can pay their loans.  

Having to make choice is life.  I don't think we just "get rid of the debt so we can see a different world."  

Just curious - forgetting debt forgiveness, would you consider changing it so that student loans at least could be treated like other loans in that in catastrophic events you could declare bankruptcy like we can for other types of loans?  

Just feels like a lot of people that are in here complaining about this idea for student loans don't say much about businesses getting a pass on their mistakes and the debts they took out.   Just curious what the difference is for people.

[IvanKaramazov 22,621]

2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Just curious - forgetting debt forgiveness, would you consider changing it so that student loans at least could be treated like other loans in that in catastrophic events you could declare bankruptcy like we can for other types of loans? 

I know this wasn't directed at me, but yes I would support this.  Realistically this would require something a little more stringent than normal bankruptcy proceedings since the debt was uncollateralized which makes things a little trickier, but it seems like a solvable problem and would be way better than blanket forgiveness.  

[jm192 1,953]

8 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Just curious - forgetting debt forgiveness, would you consider changing it so that student loans at least could be treated like other loans in that in catastrophic events you could declare bankruptcy like we can for other types of loans?  

Just feels like a lot of people that are in here complaining about this idea for student loans don't say much about businesses getting a pass on their mistakes and the debts they took out.   Just curious what the difference is for people.

I think allowing bankruptcy in catastrophic cases is the only feasible option.  I don't think anyone should just be able to wake up and decide to file bankruptcy on their student loans.  But there should be cases.  

Realizing, as others have pointed out--interest rates will go up, some people will be pushed out of being able to borrow, etc.  And I think we just have to accept that.  

I guess I haven't talked about businesses because the thread is about student loans.  I don't mean that in a rude/smart alec way.  I just don't see it as comparable.

I think some businesses do dumb stuff.  You can close your business and eliminate a lot of expenses.  You can file bankruptcy.  I guess what's different is there's often something collateral to sell back to repay some of your debt in these cases.  If you file bankruptcy on your student loans, it's not like they can take your degree or remove the education out of your brain and sell it for pennies on the dollar.

I think some businesses have been hit hard by COVID restrictions and support helping them stay afloat.  I guess the comparison is young workers that have lost hours due to COVID.  But most lenders seem to have a hardship program for those affected by this.

 

 

 

[Stealthycat 1,815]

4 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This is a pretty good analogy, but it misses the point of student loan forgiveness.  Young-ish college graduates are becoming an increasingly important part of the Democratic party's coalition, and part of what political parties exist for is to hand out rewards to their members.  The mistake you're making is in thinking that this is about some sort of principled argument as opposed to a straight-up spoils system.  The push for student loan forgiveness makes a lot more sense if you think of it in raw "punish your enemies and reward your friends" terms.  

maybe the GOP should promise automobile debt forgiveness for 2024 - that'd get them 15million more votes

but wait ... isn't that kinda like buying votes ??

[Stealthycat 1,815]

34 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Just curious - forgetting debt forgiveness, would you consider changing it so that student loans at least could be treated like other loans in that in catastrophic events you could declare bankruptcy like we can for other types of loans?  

Just feels like a lot of people that are in here complaining about this idea for student loans don't say much about businesses getting a pass on their mistakes and the debts they took out.   Just curious what the difference is for people.

lets stop calling it "forgiveness" .... its the working people paying off the debt of people who made bad choices, and the Fed Govt adding to the 30 Trillion national debt

nothing is "forgiven" ... someone is going to pay that $$$ and its not the people that borrowed it OR benefited from it

 

I didn't know student loans couldn't be a part of bankruptcy -  but once paid for, that degree that they have never goes away. it can't be taken from them in the event of bankruptcy

Edited February 25 by Stealthycat

[whoknew 8,974]

13 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I think allowing bankruptcy in catastrophic cases is the only feasible option.  I don't think anyone should just be able to wake up and decide to file bankruptcy on their student loans.  But there should be cases.  

Realizing, as others have pointed out--interest rates will go up, some people will be pushed out of being able to borrow, etc.  And I think we just have to accept that.  

I guess I haven't talked about businesses because the thread is about student loans.  I don't mean that in a rude/smart alec way.  I just don't see it as comparable.

I think some businesses do dumb stuff.  You can close your business and eliminate a lot of expenses.  You can file bankruptcy.  I guess what's different is there's often something collateral to sell back to repay some of your debt in these cases.  If you file bankruptcy on your student loans, it's not like they can take your degree or remove the education out of your brain and sell it for pennies on the dollar.

I think some businesses have been hit hard by COVID restrictions and support helping them stay afloat.  I guess the comparison is young workers that have lost hours due to COVID.  But most lenders seem to have a hardship program for those affected by this.

 

 

 

 

Why? Why should student loans be treated differently in bankruptcy from other loans?

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

 

8 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I think allowing bankruptcy in catastrophic cases is the only feasible option.  I don't think anyone should just be able to wake up and decide to file bankruptcy on their student loans.  But there should be cases.  

Realizing, as others have pointed out--interest rates will go up, some people will be pushed out of being able to borrow, etc.  And I think we just have to accept that.  

I guess I haven't talked about businesses because the thread is about student loans.  I don't mean that in a rude/smart alec way.  I just don't see it as comparable.

I think some businesses do dumb stuff.  You can close your business and eliminate a lot of expenses.  You can file bankruptcy.  I guess what's different is there's often something collateral to sell back to repay some of your debt in these cases.  If you file bankruptcy on your student loans, it's not like they can take your degree or remove the education out of your brain and sell it for pennies on the dollar.

I think some businesses have been hit hard by COVID restrictions and support helping them stay afloat.  I guess the comparison is young workers that have lost hours due to COVID.  But most lenders seem to have a hardship program for those affected by this.

 

 

 

I didn't mean specifically in this topic, just in general I get that feeling.  

I get the differences, and it's a good point that people bring up that there is nothing physical to give back to the lenders.   I think in general people feel the wait of the student loans more because they have very little recourse if something happens or they happen to make an ill advised decision.  Feels like as a whole we are telling one group of people that it's OK to make bad decisions (we even had a leader who's "wealth" seemed to be in large part due to being able to declare bankruptcy multiple times and owing a bunch of debt), but when it comes to an 18 year old making an educated guess about what they want to do with their life we say "well, you shouldn't have taken out that debt then"  I believe sentiments like this is what adds fuel to the fire and makes people try to overreach with stuff like student loan forgiveness.  

 

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

  the ignore function works about as well as the search function around here.  

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

2 minutes ago, whoknew said:

 

Why? Why should student loans be treated differently in bankruptcy from other loans?

I would guess the reason is the point that has been made that the banks can't get anything back, unlike a car, business, house.

How about excessive CC bills - is the bankruptcy any different for that?  

[whoknew 8,974]

Just now, KarmaPolice said:

I would guess the reason is the point that has been made that the banks can't get anything back, unlike a car, business, house.

How about excessive CC bills - is the bankruptcy any different for that?  

 

Yea - I'm not a bankruptcy attorney but I am pretty sure there are a lot of unsecured loans that get discharged in bankruptcy. Happens all the time. 

[jm192 1,953]

14 minutes ago, whoknew said:

 

Why? Why should student loans be treated differently in bankruptcy from other loans?

Well, they aren't like other loans.

We're giving loans to kid that graduated high school 2 weeks ago with no job prospects.  Can those same kids get a house loan or auto loan?  Hard to get a loan without proof of income.  

And maybe those kids in 4 or 8 years will care about their credit and not file bankruptcy.  But maybe they'll also just mass file bankruptcy and say thanks for the education.  If everyone can file bankrupcty--and does--then the lenders won't exist.

I don't care about the lenders.  But without them, a lot of kids can't go to school.  

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

9 minutes ago, whoknew said:

 

Yea - I'm not a bankruptcy attorney but I am pretty sure there are a lot of unsecured loans that get discharged in bankruptcy. Happens all the time. 

I am curious to learn more about this too, as far as bankruptcy goes.   As far as I was aware, it's only student loans that can't get worked in the mix.  

[Gatorman 130]

1 hour ago, jm192 said:

Then don't take out debt.  *Shrugs*

A lot of people never go to college.  A lot of people go later.  A lot of people work and pay for college.  A lot of people go to community college so it costs less.  A lot of people go into fields that they know will be in high demand vs their true passion so they can pay their loans.  

Having to make choice is life.  I don't think we just "get rid of the debt so we can see a different world."  

You do realize most of these decisions are made when the kids are under 18.  SO they are signing a multiyear enforceable contract before they are eligible to vote or legally bound in any other type of contract for the most part.

It is simply silly.  Now, what happens if we do this?  The debt goes up (the tax cut was worse than what forgiveness did to the debt) and a boatload of people in their 20-40's have more income to put into the economy.

As for the people who never went to college (or the ones like me where they did but mom or dad foot the bill):  They really don't care if this happens bc everyone will benefit.  Think of it like a tax cut, but of instead of for corporations (like the right likes) its for people

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

2 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Well, they aren't like other loans.

We're giving loans to kid that graduated high school 2 weeks ago with no job prospects.  Can those same kids get a house loan or auto loan?  Hard to get a loan without proof of income.  

And maybe those kids in 4 or 8 years will care about their credit and not file bankruptcy.  But maybe they'll also just mass file bankruptcy and say thanks for the education.  If everyone can file bankrupcty--and does--then the lenders won't exist.

I don't care about the lenders.  But without them, a lot of kids can't go to school.  

If we were to go down this route, I would think it's incorrect to assume that anybody could do this.  Seems like an odd assumption.  I would guess there would be a process and a reason that needs to be presented to go that route, not "yeah, I just don't care about my credit so thanks for my degree, #####es! " 

 

[supermike80 1,633]

1 hour ago, jm192 said:

Then don't take out debt.  *Shrugs*

A lot of people never go to college.  A lot of people go later.  A lot of people work and pay for college.  A lot of people go to community college so it costs less.  A lot of people go into fields that they know will be in high demand vs their true passion so they can pay their loans.  

Having to make choice is life.  I don't think we just "get rid of the debt so we can see a different world."  

Right.  I agree.  It almost feels like college is some kind of right----and it isn't.  Some can go some can't  Some cant for financial reasons, some can't because they can't handle the curriculum.  Heck some probably can't cause they get pregnant.

As the poster said, daddy paid for the kids colleges and they still don't have the best prospects.  So college doesn't guarantee jack squat.  

 

[supermike80 1,633]

1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

Just curious - forgetting debt forgiveness, would you consider changing it so that student loans at least could be treated like other loans in that in catastrophic events you could declare bankruptcy like we can for other types of loans?  

Just feels like a lot of people that are in here complaining about this idea for student loans don't say much about businesses getting a pass on their mistakes and the debts they took out.   Just curious what the difference is for people.

I am on board with bankruptcy options,

[jm192 1,953]

2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

If we were to go down this route, I would think it's incorrect to assume that anybody could do this.  Seems like an odd assumption.  I would guess there would be a process and a reason that needs to be presented to go that route, not "yeah, I just don't care about my credit so thanks for my degree, #####es! " 

 

Oh I 100% agree.  

I was responding to a poster that highlighted "I don't think just anyone should be able to declare bankruptcy" in one of my previous posts.  

I think there has to be a process and a legitimate proof of need/burden.

[jm192 1,953]

4 minutes ago, Gatorman said:

You do realize most of these decisions are made when the kids are under 18.  SO they are signing a multiyear enforceable contract before they are eligible to vote or legally bound in any other type of contract for the most part.

It is simply silly.  Now, what happens if we do this?  The debt goes up (the tax cut was worse than what forgiveness did to the debt) and a boatload of people in their 20-40's have more income to put into the economy.

As for the people who never went to college (or the ones like me where they did but mom or dad foot the bill):  They really don't care if this happens bc everyone will benefit.  Think of it like a tax cut, but of instead of for corporations (like the right likes) its for people

Yeah, I guess I don't see it that way.

I think we need to reconsider letting a bunch of 18 year old kids take out 10's of thousands of dollars without understanding what it means to repay it with interest.

Forgiving it now to "help the economy" will just mean we're right back here in another 20 years and arguing about the same stuff again and again.

[KarmaPolice 18,192]

11 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Yeah, I guess I don't see it that way.

I think we need to reconsider letting a bunch of 18 year old kids take out 10's of thousands of dollars without understanding what it means to repay it with interest.

Forgiving it now to "help the economy" will just mean we're right back here in another 20 years and arguing about the same stuff again and again.

Not sure what the answer is here.   Do we require a course about income/debt expectations on their schooling, or compound interest?  

Adjust the system so that we don't require so many degrees that might not be needed for careers in the first place?  

 

[jm192 1,953]

1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not sure what the answer is here.   Do we require a course about income/debt expectations on their schooling, or compound interest?  

Adjust the system so that we don't require so many degrees that might not be needed for careers in the first place?  

 

I don't either.  Some sort of course would be nice, but it almost feels like a make ourselves feel better solution.  

For med school, we had to attend a loan counseling seminar, and I remember thinking "Yeah, I'll just look at this when I have to start paying."

Maybe build it into the senior year of high school and make them actually pass a class.  

[The Commish 13,984]

5 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Well, they aren't like other loans.

We're giving loans to kid that graduated high school 2 weeks ago with no job prospects.  Can those same kids get a house loan or auto loan?  Hard to get a loan without proof of income.  

And maybe those kids in 4 or 8 years will care about their credit and not file bankruptcy.  But maybe they'll also just mass file bankruptcy and say thanks for the education.  If everyone can file bankrupcty--and does--then the lenders won't exist.

I don't care about the lenders.  But without them, a lot of kids can't go to school.  

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy this.  My former employer had DOZENS of unsecured loan products for people.  They are a little different but I don't think they are soooooooo different we need "thinking outside the box" kind of stuff here.

[jm192 1,953]

7 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy this.  My former employer had DOZENS of unsecured loan products for people.  They are a little different but I don't think they are soooooooo different we need "thinking outside the box" kind of stuff here.

But they have control over who gets a loan.  How many of those unsecured loans are for 10's of thousands of dollars to 18 year old kids with no credit and no job?

The same kid wouldn't get a credit card for 1,000$.  Me as a college kid initially got a 500$ limit on a chase card.  

You don't just give out a fortune in unsecured debt to tens of thousands of subpar lenders and remain in business.

[Gatorman 130]

1 hour ago, jm192 said:

Yeah, I guess I don't see it that way.

I think we need to reconsider letting a bunch of 18 year old kids take out 10's of thousands of dollars without understanding what it means to repay it with interest.

Forgiving it now to "help the economy" will just mean we're right back here in another 20 years and arguing about the same stuff again and again.

TO be fair, there needs to be more transparency up and down the system.  To use me and my kids as examples:

I went to a state school that wasn't that bad financially and then took out loans to be an optometrist.  Those loans were about 125K and were not tax deductible.  I made more than enough money to pay them off, but before I did, I used a refi of my house to pay off the loans and the refi WAS tax deductible.

For my kids we had the Florida Prepaid program and they qualified for bright futures, but their grades were so good that they set their sights higher than a state school. We encouraged this bc, hell, they are smart and I can foot the bill so they went.  One has graduated and hasn't found a job in his field due to COVID and other factors and my daughter is about to graduate and should be fine.  Even us, as parents realize now that the state school option was likely financially a better choice but everything (and I mean everything) pushes kids and parents towards "the best" school not the "Best value" school.  So, we likely need to fix all of it.  Tuition, grade inflation, claims on hiring out of the school in question (which are usually overblown), and the idea of piling 100-200 K of debt at someone before they have pubes.  Loan forgiveness is a decent first step bc it takes place with the stroke of a pen.  All the rest of the systemic stuff will take much longer.

[The Commish 13,984]

1 hour ago, jm192 said:

But they have control over who gets a loan.  How many of those unsecured loans are for 10's of thousands of dollars to 18 year old kids with no credit and no job?

The same kid wouldn't get a credit card for 1,000$.  Me as a college kid initially got a 500$ limit on a chase card.  

You don't just give out a fortune in unsecured debt to tens of thousands of subpar lenders and remain in business.

Not sure I follow....these loan companies have complete control over whether or not they give the money to these kids.