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Please don’t call undocumented people “illegal immigrants” (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
I think most logical, fair minded people would conclude that illegal immigrants do vote. The question is, how many?
I have a fair amount of experience dealing with illegal aliens. And I’ll just leave it at this - they are far more crafty (and tolerated) than most people would logically assume. There are anywhere from 19-31 million of them here. If it wasn’t fairly easy to maneuver through the system there wouldn’t be as many of them here.
When I was in remedial driving school a Mexican guy told the instructor how he’d been living in America for 25 years and never had a US drivers license. Be said he never took a driving test in his life. But somehow he had accrued enough tickets to have to go to driving class lol.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Not necessarily. A lot of my smaller accounts (indian owned) are really against illegal immigration. They went thru the proper channels and did it legally.
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E Street Brat
Footballguy
Would you be an illegal driver if you were 12 years old had no license, insurance and was drunk?
If you removed all driving restrictions than the 12 year old would be legal.
You could solve the murder problem by making it legal to go around killing people.
Edit,
Again it's all about controlling the langue, so you can control the behavior of other people.
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I disagree wholeheartedly. I think any fair-minded person who put any thought into this would agree that undocumented immigrants are unlikely to vote in an election.
Undocumented aliens are extremely unlikely to go to a Government building to register to vote, where they would have to provide documentation - that they don't have, and risk being caught for not having said documentation and deported. Then, they would be extremely unlikely to show up at a polling station, where they like have to provide some form of ID, and hope the government did not figure out they were undocumented when they registered to vote.
The non-citizens who do vote are documented residents - whether here on a student visa, work visa, or green card, or other status where they think they are entitled to vote.
timschochet
Footballguy
No idea where you got this number. Most studies estimate 10-12 million:
https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/votervital/how-many-undocumented-immigrants-are-in-the-united-states-and-who-are-they/
the rest of your post made very little sense as well.
woodstock
Footballguy
Guys, let me rephrase. I'd like to have a pollster find out why people aren't answering pollsters honestly. When do you think the best time to call them would be?
Think that'll get to heart of it, fo sho.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I don’t think I made my point clear. My point is that simply stating that you are against illegal immigration and support legal immigration is sort of meaningless. The more relevant inquiry is what sort of legal immigration do you support? Because the government could decide to grant amnesty to everyone presenting themselves at the Southern border and that would then be legal immigration. Surely those who are concerned about illegal immigration wouldn’t suddenly be in support of now legal immigrants flowing across the border at will.
I sense your frustration at being unable to support your position.
How about we start here - how do you think undocumented aliens register to vote?
Do you think undocumented people are likely to go to a government office, where they will be asked for documentation, in order to vote in US elections?
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shadrap
Footballguy
sinn,
question for you as you seem to have a grip. 2 years ago my brother in law went to the emergency room in the Phoenix area -broken arm-7:00 PM & waited for 2 hours. Nurse told him the previous `14 out of 20 patients were all undocumented, no insurance.
your take?
woodstock
Footballguy
I have no position nor did I take one. You're asking for a near impossibility: The proof of the existence of that which is more than inclined and encouraged to keep its very existence secret.
There's a fatal flaw in both the assertion of the truth of the existence of a thing by proof or reason and the asking for proof of that assertion of existence by study or empirical data. It sort of takes chutzpah to ask, and it's a fool's errand to go chasing around for the information.
The only thing to say is that we know it exists from experience or we know it exists because the probability overwhelmingly suggests its existence. Your proof won't be forthcoming anytime soon.
I find that reasonable - i.e. I believe the story/numbers.
And, there is no question that anyone without insurance who goes to the hospital are paid for by the rest of us via, higher insurance premiums, etc. That included citizens and non-citizens alike.
But, the real question that can't be answered here - are those undocumented people providing some economic benefit to the country (via a US business that employs them in some capacity). My sense is that most (but not all) undocumented people are here to work, and generally in jobs that citizens have shunned. So - is that economic cost, offset by the economic benefit? I honestly don't know - but that is where the conversation should be centered.
woodstock
Footballguy
That's simply an immediate economic cost-benefit analysis of one piece of the puzzle that can't even be answered. There are other questions when considering the homogenous nature of groups and outsiders and the attendant costs that aren't so immediate regarding the majority culture absorbing those whose cultures differ in structure and in action. This we see in crime rates, administration of rights and responsibilities, schooling, political changes, and other things that aren't necessarily measured by immediate economic measures but that play a role in a generalized notion of what costs or benefits are.
The original comment was "studies show that illegal immigrants are voting - today"
If you are telling me those studies don't exist - then I believe you.
I really like to read and learn all kinds of things. My hypothesis - as laid out here several times - is that undocumented people are extremely unlikely to risk deportation and/or jail by going to a government building to register to vote - where they will be asked for documents they don't have.
I believe that undocumented people are very resourceful - and are not above fudging some documentation to get work, or lodging , etc. But, I don't see them making that same effort to vote in an election - there simply is not the upside for a single vote - even if they thought all of their compatriots were voting with them.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I think you’re making my point, but I’m not sure. As I said in my previous post, the question isn’t so much about supporting “legal immigration” as it is what type of legal immigration do you support?
woodstock
Footballguy
I'll admit, I'd like to see those. If so, that's good work, because that seems like a very difficult thing to prove or chase down.
It's like the poll problems people were having with Trump and his supporters. People that weren't telling pollsters or the media the truth about who they were voting for weren't going to tell a pollster or media person the truth about why this was so. It was a flawed fact-finding mission. You're likely never going to know until years later, in the best-case scenario.
Sort of akin to this.
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Your answer assumes a lot - but specifically that these immigrants are bringing in a culture that does not already exist.
And that is one place where it fails.
But, in a macro sense - yes, the immigration policy of a country would take all of that into account when determining how many immigrants the country can handle.
In reality, democratic capitalism will determine the flow of immigrants into and out of the country. When the US can no longer afford to take in immigrants - immigrants will be naturally disincentivized from coming. I.e. they will find themselves in a better place where they live.
Why don't we see as many Irish immigrants as we did in the early 20th century? Ireland is more stable, and the benefits of leaving don't outweigh the benefits of staying.
woodstock
Footballguy
In America, they are. The Mexican and South and Central Americas have language as an immediate cultural difference for, I'd guess, at least ninety percent of them. That could be overestimating, but I think anyone would grant that our current immigration/border issue revolves around people of that descent with that language issue. To not assume cultural differences between South of the border and the United States would seem to be a pie-in-the-sky notion, and really a contentious point if made to the contrary.
If one were to set about quantifying the cost of these things, then it would be useful to itemize and put forth each individual difference for debate, but it seems like we can skip that part of the debate and advance to Go, really.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I am in Lexington Ky - there is a large Hispanic population mostly revolving around the horse industry. There is a part of town here where you don't need to speak English - for anything - and, in fact, you might need a bit of Spanish to conduct business. It is primarily Mexican, but there are other cultures represented in the area.
We are in the middle (so-to-speak) of the country. That culture exists in every major city, and probably every city near the southern border.
woodstock
Footballguy
So when conducting official government or private business, the cost of administering aid, benefits, translation from English, or other such things to native Spanish speakers is something to consider when one considers costs both economic and non-economic, right?
There is no seamless interaction here between any sort of private or official business, no?
I’ll leave it to the Board to decide who is making little sense here. 10-12 million is a pipe dream. Not even close.
Its their own little world - even had their own interstate bus service.
I imagine that the community helps its own - so that when a non-english speaker needs translations - someone is there to help.
I can speak to the school system in general - there is a lot of effort made to communicate bi-lingually in all school communications, and every school is set up for English lessons for non-english speakers. My older daughter is in a Spanish Immersion program, but only about 25-30% of that program are native Spanish speakers (so its not really a viable outlet for the hispanic community).
So - there is certainly a community cost to having a large hispanic population. But, they bring culture, and labor, and businesses to the area also.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
At first maybe. But after a while they catch on. We've seen them literally openly march and demonstrate for their "rights".
You cut off my quote to make it look like I was saying that all illegals vote. I merely said that they do vote but that the degree and magnitude was in question. Let’s agree that the numbers will never be known. One, because Liberals won’t ever dare do a study on it. And two, few if any Conservative groups will do a study because today’s climate is too toxic.
Btw - I agree with your hypothesis. I don’t think the number is substantial. But it’s not zero, which is the blanket statement that I was responding to.
timschochet
Footballguy
Yeah I was clearly referring to a little more important elections than school board or municipal. Because that’s what I thought you were referring to as well.ekbeats said:
I wasn’t aware of the school board/municipal stuff. But now that I am, I don’t care.
timschochet
Footballguy
This isn’t a matter of opinion for members of the board to decide. There’s an actual number: studies suggest 10-12 million. You don’t get to ignore information that doesn’t go your way. That’s the whole point of my thread about the MSM.ekbeats said:
You’re so cocksure aren’t you.
Yale, MIT study: 22 million, not 11 million, undocumented immigrants in US
By the way - 16 states plus DC have laws on the books to allow unauthorized immigrants to obtain a driver's licenses. Often times that is all that is required to vote. Years ago in PA automatic voter registration cards were sent out out to illegal aliens who had obtained drivers licenses, causing all sorts of confusion. If you guys think there are foolproof measures in place preventing illegal aliens from voting you’re sorely mistaken.
timschochet
Footballguy
We’re never going to know for sure until we give them legal status and make them part of the Census.
timschochet
Footballguy
Drivers licenses are a damn good idea- that way they get insurance and our roads are safer. And the ones who break the laws are easier to catch.
It always amazes me how one side of this argument claim to be on the side of a “lawful society”, and yet they do everything they can to keep these poor people in the shadows, which makes us all far less safe.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
FairWarning
Footballguy
I think we should be able to control our border, no? Shouldn't we know who is in our country at all times - as much as we can anyway? If Biden wanted to reward them by making all illegals legal, I wouldn't like it but I can't change it.bigbottom said:
Handing out citizenship would remove them from being undocumented and would not differentiate between those who came legally and those who broke the law to get here.
How would that help us determine how many are "illegal aliens"?
.How about....allowing a new census question to help identify how many non-citizens there are in the United States. And where they are. (The questions on citizenship were abandoned after 1950).
Anyone ever think of that??
Oh yeah...someone did.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Attempting to identify them without giving them any kind of legal status (nobody is in favor of “handing out citizenship; it has to be a process) would be a form of persecution, which was the whole intent.
timschochet
Footballguy
No deflection at all. I gave you a study that says 10-12 million. You offered a study that says more. Based on what I have seen, the one you offered was an outlier, because several studies I’ve seen have suggested the lower number. But again, we’ll never know for sure until we give them legal status.
These are two separate questions. I find it disgusting that we play this game of having laws regarding immigration and, for decades, have refused to enforce them. And I don't mean just the border. Ronald Reagan got amnesty passed based upon the promises of closing the border and going after employers of illegal immigrants. We were told this would take care of the problem forever. So we legalized millions of illegal immigrants and then didn't do either of the things promised to end the problem altogether.bigbottom said:
If, as a country, we CHOSE to open the borders, at least it would be legal. And those of us who favor a different set of laws could then vote out the people who made such a horrible decision. As it is, our elected representatives just kick the can down the road and continue to allow the problem to continue.
There are so many issues with illegal immigration, and many have nothing to do with stopping people from coming here. Identity theft is a big problem with illegals, simply because they're illegal but need a legal identity to work. Getting here is risky for illegals as well, both from dying as well as the rampant rape that is known to be happening. The list is very long, and most of those problems would go away if we secured our border and only allowed legal immigration, whatever form that might take.
FairWarning
Footballguy
What I find amazing is the same people who want open borders, also want us to get a vax, wear masks, etc.
Tim, why do you think if they can get a drivers license, they will get insurance? That is laughable. We can't even get Michiganders to get car insurance because of the cost. They buy it for a month (so they can get their plates renewed), then let it lapse.
Tim, why do you think if they can get a drivers license, they will get insurance? That is laughable. We can't even get Michiganders to get car insurance because of the cost. They buy it for a month (so they can get their plates renewed), then let it lapse.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Thanks for the context. Employer who takes advantage of a class of workers by paying sub-standard wages and passes it off as convenience. Then in the same breath will fight for an increase in minimum wage knowing that it won't affect him since he "pays for the job". True POS.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I wholeheartedly object to this line of thinking.
The reason most US citizens have shunned these jobs is because the wages paid are so unreasonably low because the labor market wages are dictated by the wage demands. And that wage demand is greatly driven DOWN by the presence of illegal immigrants who are willing to work for much less than what is deemed a "livable" wage by US citizens.
This isn't an argument for a more immigration, but against. There is work that needs to go back to legal US citizens, but they will not subject themselves to live off of the paltry wages that employers pay the illegal immigrants. There are a lot of US citizens who would be willing to do this work, but are priced out by the companies that hire illegal immigrants.
And how do other countries possibly get all of this "undesirable" work done without non-citizens outside of the bounds of their laws? How on earth does Germany function without a slew of illegal Slavic immigrants to do their landscaping and fruit harvesting? How does Japan do it without a bunch of illegal Koreans to work in their poultry factories?
My point is they do just fine and we would too if employers weren't accustomed to the below market wages of illegal immigrants.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
If the profits go down, that means the prices don't go up. If the prices go up, then the profits won't go down.
Realistically, the wages would go up, profits would take a portion of the hit and prices would take the other portion up. But the business would really need to watch the market to ensure that they didn't price themselves out of volume and thus hurt profits even more (supply/demand curve and all that). Would likely see a gradual price increase until everything stabilized and both the labor and product markets are operating at their most efficient with legal employees receiving a livable wage, as the system and laws are intended to operate.
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