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Israel Under Attack : Iron Dome Failing under onslaught of rockets


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When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

 

Golda Meir

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2 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

 

Golda Meir

I am 100% convinced that Golda would have condemned Netanyahu for continuing this attack. 

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6 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

 

Golda Meir

Quote

We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. [Yigal] Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Rabin added, "I agreed that it was essential to drive the inhabitants out. - Yitzhak Rabin

 

Quote

There is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, and to transfer all of them, save perhaps for [the Arabs of] Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one [bedouin] tribe. And only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb millions of our brothers and the Jewish problem will cease to exist. There is no other solution. - Joseph Weitz

 

Quote

You are no doubt aware of the activity in this respect. Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out. In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the Arab fellahin.  Jewish power [in Palestine], which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out this transfer on a large scale. - David Ben Gurion 

 

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13 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I am 100% convinced that Golda would have condemned Netanyahu for continuing this attack. 

There's no difference between one's killing
and making decisions that will send others to kill.
It's exactly the same thing, or even worse.

Golda Meir

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3 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

There's no difference between one's killing
and making decisions that will send others to kill.
It's exactly the same thing, or even worse.

Golda Meir

Sorry I don’t get the relevance of this response. 

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Since we are doing relevant quotes:

Quote

“We will not recognize Israel, Palestine must stretch from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, the Right of Return [must be fulfilled], the prisoners must be set free, and a fully sovereign Palestinian state must be established with Jerusalem as its capital.”

-Ismail Haniyeh, current Hamas Prime Minister...elected leader of Gaza

 

Quote

“Israel’s annihilation is the only real cure...while waiting for an end to this cold-blooded murderous regime, mighty armed resistance is the only way to deal with it.”

-Ali Hosseini Khamenei, Iranian Supreme Leader

 

Quote

"Resistance to Israel remains on our agenda, I mean resistance in all of its forms. At this stage, we believe that popular resistance - with all that it entails - is effective and costly to the other side [Israel] ... If you ask me as a Palestinian, I say - our battle is with the Israeli occupation. Our main enemy, not as Palestinians but as Arabs and Muslims, is Israel and the Israeli occupation ... If [Arab] mobilization would begin for the liberation of Jerusalem; if money [spent] and swords drawn in the face of the Zionist enemy, that would be great ... Until now we don’t have nuclear weapons. Believe me, if we had nuclear weapons we would use them tomorrow morning."

Jibril Rajoub, PA Deputy Secretary-General

These aren't random extremist clerics.  That is the current leader of the Gaza strip, the current leader of Iran and a high ranking official in the Palestinian Authority (controls West Bank).  And this is just from the last few years.  Go back to the 1940's - 1980's and you can find some even crazier rhetoric basically predicting and demanding the destruction of the Jews.  You know, actual genocide.

Basically, this isn't just about the Holocaust.  It's about 1948, 1967, 1971 up to the current terrorism of Hezbollah and Hamas.  The Jews have NEVER had peace, never had a safe home and have lived with the Arabs within Israel this entire time.  As impressive as the Iron Dome is, it is sad that it has to be in place.  Imagine if they didn't have it?  The entire world would be on the side of Israel right now because there would be thousands upon thousands of dead Israeli citizens.

The rhetoric about poor little Palestine and the Israeli bullies is getting ridiculous both here and especially on social media and the press.

I don't care about Israel any more than Estonia or Burundi or any other random small country.  But what I see is a group of people backed into a very small corner and facing a bunch of finger wagging from the world that has done nothing but spit on them and literally try to destroy them for centuries.  The Muslim world is filled with extremists and violent oppressors and they have been at war with Israel since its existence.  This isn't about Israel vs. Palestine.  This is about Israel vs. Iran/SA/Iraq/Egypt/Jordan/Lebanon/Oman/Pakistan/Turkey/etc.,etc. 

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51 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Since we are doing relevant quotes:

 

 

These aren't random extremist clerics.  That is the current leader of the Gaza strip, the current leader of Iran and a high ranking official in the Palestinian Authority (controls West Bank).  And this is just from the last few years.  Go back to the 1940's - 1980's and you can find some even crazier rhetoric basically predicting and demanding the destruction of the Jews.  You know, actual genocide.

Basically, this isn't just about the Holocaust.  It's about 1948, 1967, 1971 up to the current terrorism of Hezbollah and Hamas.  The Jews have NEVER had peace, never had a safe home and have lived with the Arabs within Israel this entire time.  As impressive as the Iron Dome is, it is sad that it has to be in place.  Imagine if they didn't have it?  The entire world would be on the side of Israel right now because there would be thousands upon thousands of dead Israeli citizens.

The rhetoric about poor little Palestine and the Israeli bullies is getting ridiculous both here and especially on social media and the press.

I don't care about Israel any more than Estonia or Burundi or any other random small country.  But what I see is a group of people backed into a very small corner and facing a bunch of finger wagging from the world that has done nothing but spit on them and literally try to destroy them for centuries.  The Muslim world is filled with extremists and violent oppressors and they have been at war with Israel since its existence.  This isn't about Israel vs. Palestine.  This is about Israel vs. Iran/SA/Iraq/Egypt/Jordan/Lebanon/Oman/Pakistan/Turkey/etc.,etc. 

This is what happens after decades of actual genocide.  

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1 hour ago, Navin Johnson said:

This is what happens after decades of actual genocide.  

Check out the turks and kurds.   Or you might like to see how assad treated the palastinians.   Actually there are no palastinians.   They are arabs.    Assad in allepo is some actual genocide.

Are there anymore jews in iraq?

Why is it always the israelis?  

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9 hours ago, Navin Johnson said:

This is what happens after decades of actual genocide.  

So you are trying to claim the Jews are committing genocide? I mean I've seen a bunch of Muslims on twitter say it, but wow.  Palestinian population has almost quadrupled since 1960.  The Israelis aren't exactly known for being ineffective. 

My opinion is that anyone who honestly believes this is actually anti-Semetic.

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1 hour ago, Jayrod said:

So you are trying to claim the Jews are committing genocide? I mean I've seen a bunch of Muslims on twitter say it, but wow.  Palestinian population has almost quadrupled since 1960.  The Israelis aren't exactly known for being ineffective. 

My opinion is that anyone who honestly believes this is actually anti-Semetic.

Be careful with throwing out that term. It is certainly possible to believe that Israel is guilty of genocide without being an anti-Semite. 

Personally, I certainly don’t think Israel is guilty of genocide, but they have been guilty of bad behavior at times. 

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Increasingly conservatives are fans of Israel no matter what, and leftists are enemies of Israel no matter what. Those of us in the middle (supporters of Israel, but not of Netanyahu, and willing to criticize but not condemn) are being squeezed out from other side, just as we are being squeezed out on so many other political issues in today’s society. 
 

It really is untenable. 

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15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Be careful with throwing out that term. It is certainly possible to believe that Israel is guilty of genocide without being an anti-Semite. 

Personally, I certainly don’t think Israel is guilty of genocide, but they have been guilty of bad behavior at times. 

There is no stretching of the term "genocide" that could be applied to Israel.  Anyone that tries to do so has an ulterior motive.

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2 hours ago, Jayrod said:

So you are trying to claim the Jews are committing genocide? I mean I've seen a bunch of Muslims on twitter say it, but wow.  Palestinian population has almost quadrupled since 1960.  The Israelis aren't exactly known for being ineffective. 

My opinion is that anyone who honestly believes this is actually anti-Semetic.

maybe they're just anti-genocide.  or anti-ethnic cleansing.  or whatever you'd prefer to call it.

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On 5/16/2021 at 12:28 PM, zoonation said:

This conflict is ridiculous.  Shame on both of them. 

 

While it's not politically correct to say, sometimes two sides just need to fight it out. Sometimes you move past the point of no return and there's too much legacy, too much bad blood, too much history that can't be changed.

Both sides clearly want to fight. So I say let them. I think it's tragic for many every day people who will get caught in the middle and perish. But maybe this is the only way both sides will ever learn anything.

Peace negotiations are simply a different kind of fighting. It doesn't change the hate and anger and legacy and past losses and indignities. Once one can accept that, open war will finally be seen as inevitable.

This was inevitable. It was a function of time and when. It's a tragedy and will spawn more tragedies, but it's the truth.

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

Be careful with throwing out that term. It is certainly possible to believe that Israel is guilty of genocide without being an anti-Semite. 

Personally, I certainly don’t think Israel is guilty of genocide, but they have been guilty of bad behavior at times. 

Middle East much?

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

Increasingly conservatives are fans of Israel no matter what, and leftists are enemies of Israel no matter what. Those of us in the middle (supporters of Israel, but not of Netanyahu, and willing to criticize but not condemn) are being squeezed out from other side, just as we are being squeezed out on so many other political issues in today’s society. 
 

It really is untenable. 

Which side will you end up on after the untenable middle is no longer an option?

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9 hours ago, Jayrod said:

There is no stretching of the term "genocide" that could be applied to Israel.  Anyone that tries to do so has an ulterior motive.

They annhilated entire Palestinian villages before the mandate even took effect and were planning to do so for at least a decade before it passed. They have continued these actions for decades. 

I was as pro-Israel as anyone on this board, even used to refer to Tim as 'Uncle Tim' because of his stance on the situation. Then I actually went there. Haifa and Tel Aviv were cool, Jerusalem was a little sketchy with ask the kids in the Israeli military toting M16s. Finally we went into the West Bank to visit Bethlehem and I was appalled. 

Your insinuation that I am an anti-Semite because of my feelings toward the state of Israel is lazy at best. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

Me too

I think most people are. And yet, there are those on the far left willing to justify or forgive what Hamas is doing here, and there are those on the left, middle and right willing to justify or forgive what Israel is doing here. And innocent people continue to die. 

Edited by timschochet
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20 hours ago, quick-hands said:

Check out the turks and kurds.   Or you might like to see how assad treated the palastinians.   Actually there are no palastinians.   They are arabs.    Assad in allepo is some actual genocide.

Are there anymore jews in iraq?

Why is it always the israelis?  

You might want to check the thread title.

They are actually descendants of the Canaanites so that would technically make them Semitic.

I think there are presently 3 Jews living in Iraq - not joking.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I think most people are. And yet, there are those on the far left willing to justify or forgive what Hamas is doming here, and there are those on the left, middle and right willing to justify or forgive what Israel is doing here. And innocent people continue to die. 

Forgiveness is not the same as understanding.  I understand isreals position.   I understand plo and hamas position.

I dont think foregiveness applies here.

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2 hours ago, Navin Johnson said:

They annhilated entire Palestinian villages before the mandate even took effect and were planning to do so for at least a decade before it passed. They have continued these actions for decades. 

I was as pro-Israel as anyone on this board, even used to refer to Tim as 'Uncle Tim' because of his stance on the situation. Then I actually went there. Haifa and Tel Aviv were cool, Jerusalem was a little sketchy with ask the kids in the Israeli military toting M16s. Finally we went into the West Bank to visit Bethlehem and I was appalled. 

Your insinuation that I am an anti-Semite because of my feelings toward the state of Israel is lazy at best. 

Your use of the term genocide is lazy at best.  It isn't a genocide.  I don't think anyone needs to be pro-Israel, but to throw around very heavy words like that, you better be able to back it up.  Forcing Arabs out, trying to change the demographics, etc. is what is happening.  Genocide is the intentional killing of a people group solely based on race with the INTENT of completely eliminating them from existence.  You know, like the Holocaust, Armenia & Rwanda.

To say that is what is happening to Arabs is completely false and mere propaganda that I've seen literally 100's of times from Muslim extremists on twitter.  Just admit you were wrong and I'll move on, but you keep acting like the use of the term is justified when it absolutely is not.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Your use of the term genocide is lazy at best.  It isn't a genocide.  I don't think anyone needs to be pro-Israel, but to throw around very heavy words like that, you better be able to back it up.  Forcing Arabs out, trying to change the demographics, etc. is what is happening.  Genocide is the intentional killing of a people group solely based on race with the INTENT of completely eliminating them from existence.  You know, like the Holocaust, Armenia & Rwanda.

To say that is what is happening to Arabs is completely false and mere propaganda that I've seen literally 100's of times from Muslim extremists on twitter.  Just admit you were wrong and I'll move on, but you keep acting like the use of the term is justified when it absolutely is not.

 

 

Quote

The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such" including the killing of its members, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to "bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group. Victims have to be deliberately, not randomly, targeted because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups outlined in the above definition.

But Israel is doing it in moderation, so they're good, right?

eta---and yes, this is exactly what is happening to the Palestinians.  

Edited by Navin Johnson
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Navin Johnson said:

 

 

But Israel is doing it in moderation, so they're good, right?

eta---and yes, this is exactly what is happening to the Palestinians.  

This current iteration is called war.  A defensive war at that.  They are literally trying NOT to hurt the Arab people while still wipe out Hamas.  Which is their goal.  Wipe out Hamas.  Not Arabs, not Palestinians, a militant terrorist ORGANIZATION.

Quote

 

gen·o·cide

/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

 

Not genocide and you know it.

Edited by Jayrod
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10 minutes ago, Navin Johnson said:

But Israel is doing it in moderation, so they're good, right?

eta---and yes, this is exactly what is happening to the Palestinians.  

I mean if you insist on calling it genocide I can insist on calling you a racist anti-Semite....since you know we can just throw this crap around all willy nilly with whatever loosely based definition we want to use.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

This current iteration is called war.  A defensive war at that.  They are literally trying NOT to hurt the Arab people while still wipe out Hamas.  Which is their goal.  Wipe out Hamas.  

What part of throwing a stun grenade at medics and journalists is defensive.  Are the journalist members of Hamas?  The medics?  Does it matter?

https://youtu.be/fiOIDM1uGlE

Edited by Navin Johnson
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1 hour ago, Jayrod said:

I mean if you insist on calling it genocide I can insist on calling you a racist anti-Semite....since you know we can just throw this crap around all willy nilly with whatever loosely based definition we want to use.

This is really over the top.   My great grandfather fled what is now Latvia to escape massacres of German Jews by Ukrainian Cossacks.    I also think what has happened to Palestinians is and has been genocide.   You have zero right to call me or anyone else opposing the illegal occupation, annexation and murder of innocents that Israel has engaged in an anti-Semite, and nothing could be further from the truth.   Honestly, I don't understand how you're even allowed to post on this board. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Navin Johnson said:

Cool board you got here @Joe Bryant

Words hurt, huh?

1 hour ago, -fish- said:

This is really over the top.   My great grandfather fled what is now Latvia to escape massacres of German Jews by Ukrainian Cossacks.    I also think what has happened to Palestinians is and has been genocide.   You have zero right to call me or anyone else opposing the illegal occupation, annexation and murder of innocents that Israel has engaged in an anti-Semite, and nothing could be further from the truth.   Honestly, I don't understand how you're even allowed to post on this board. 

Calling something a genocide is as big of an accusation as there is, IMO.  It is the viellist and most heinous of crimes against humanity and is the #1 affront attributed to the Nazis.

@Navin Johnson & @-fish-The two of you explain to me how it meets the definition of genocide.  I'll retract my accusation if you can convince me.

From where I'm sitting (a white American in the Midwest with no vested interest one way or another) to call it a genocide is flat out false and reeks of Muslim propaganda.

Edited by Jayrod
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2 hours ago, -fish- said:

This is really over the top.   My great grandfather fled what is now Latvia to escape massacres of German Jews by Ukrainian Cossacks.    I also think what has happened to Palestinians is and has been genocide.   You have zero right to call me or anyone else opposing the illegal occupation, annexation and murder of innocents that Israel has engaged in an anti-Semite, and nothing could be further from the truth.   Honestly, I don't understand how you're even allowed to post on this board. 

can Hamas stop hiding behind children?     i hate seeing children dead.       

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, kodycutter said:

can Hamas stop hiding behind children?     i hate seeing children dead.       

I don't think anyone is supporting Hamas here.   

But Israel is not blameless in its actions, and its abhorrent human rights violations as to innocent Palestinians.   The Palestinians under military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza have little to no freedom of movement...they have nowhere to go.   Israel restricts supplies of basic necessities like clean water, electricity and health care.   Israel has one of the most aggressive Covid-19 vaccination programs in the world, but chose not to supply vaccines to Palestinians in the occupied territories.    That's nearly 5 million people with no access to a vaccine, because the powers that be would rather see innocent people get sick and die.  That's on Israel, and no better than sending blankets full of small pox to Native Americans.   It took a century or two, but we finally recognized that as genocide, too.

There are also some questions about how truthful the IDF is when it attacks targets, claiming Hamas is lurking there.   The press center that was recently destroyed was supposedly being used by Hamas, and Israel claimed to have provided proof to the US.  At this point, US officials have denied seeing any such proof.   There are documented events where Hamas turned a school into a base for staging attacks, but there are also instances where Israel made such claims with no evidence, and innocents were killed.   

Quote

Israel’s military claimed that the building was targeted because it housed “Hamas military intelligence assets,” who had been using the presence of civilian journalists as “human shields.” No evidence was provided for those claims.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/15/israel-airstrike-media/

Edited by -fish-
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3 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Words hurt, huh?

Calling something a genocide is as big of an accusation as there is, IMO.  It is the viellist and most heinous of crimes against humanity and is the #1 affront attributed to the Nazis.

@Navin Johnson & @-fish-The two of you explain to me how it meets the definition of genocide.  I'll retract my accusation if you can convince me.

From where I'm sitting (a white American in the Midwest with no vested interest one way or another) to call it a genocide is flat out false and reeks of Muslim propaganda.

Here are the facts as I understand them:

  1. 1917-1920 - A "Jewish homeland" was established in Palestine by the UK after WW1 and the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.  A handful of Jews went there and settled in the region.  There wasn't much settled regarding a ruling government at this time.  Local Arabic people groups (Palestinians?) were very unhappy with this at the time but most of it was done with the authority and control by the British military.  The original plan from many was an international zone, but the Jews (mainly Zionists) wanted a permanent home in their "promised land".
  2. WW2 sees the Holocaust with the killing of some 6 million Jews.  After this, many of the remaining Jews head to the Palestinian region.  In 1947, Israel declares itself a nation with borders drawn up (much more favorable to Palestine than they are today).
  3. The Arab people in and around this new Israel don't like the setup and a "civil war" was started immediately.  In 1948 the Arab nations around the new country attack Israel in an attempt to destroy them and drive the Jews out of the region.  It backfires as they lose and Israel not only remains, but ends up expanding their territory beyond what was originally established a year earlier along the "Green Line" border.  Israel develops into a democratic nation with civil liberties allowed for all citizens including Arabs.  The Temple Mount and East Jerusalem remains under control of Jordan and Egypt controls the Gaza strip.
  4. From 1949-1967, Israel faced countless terrorist attacks and the formation of military campaigns on all sides from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt.  In 1967 when a strike seemed eminent, Israel struck at the military buildups along its borders first and led a stunning military campaign that won the war in 6 days.  They essentially took control of the entirety of what is Palestine today and the Sinai Peninsula.  Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were driven out of their homes by the military campaign and ended up in refugee camps.  Many of those camps still exist to this day and the Palestinians still expect they will return home within Israel to what was their home 54 years ago.  Israel won't let them come back.
  5. After the Six-day war, the UN told Israel to give back the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza and the Golan Heights in exchange for peace.  The ceded all of Sinai back to Egypt and the Gaza strip to Palestine and some control of the West Bank.  However, they kept a lot of control in place over these regions (outside of Sinai).
  6. A couple of uprisings or "Intifadas" are conducted by the Palestinians in and around Israel.  Both end up with a lot of casualties on both sides.  These events are used as Israeli justification to tighten up control of the region, but they still move to allow a Palestinian government to form and maintain full citizenship rights for all Arabic Israeli citizens.
  7. Jews begin to settle into the Palestinian regions under Israeli control along the West Bank and East Jerusalem.  Gaza is basically cut off from 3 sides (the sea and two sides along the Israeli border) by Israel.  The fourth side is with Egypt who for their own reasons close their border.  Hamas gains control in 2005 of the Gaza and is openly hostile towards Israel.  The Palestinian Authority continues to operate with limited power and control.

This brings us to the recent events.  Basically, Hamas is upset not about the blockade of Gaza, but the Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and their police presence at the Al-Aqsa mosque.  That is their justification for blasting like 3,000+ rockets over the wall in 10 days.  And those rockets are why Israel is attacking the Gaza strip.

I say all of that to say that if this were genocide:

  • Why is Israel allowing Arab-Israeli citizens (including parliamentary & legal representation)? 
  • Why is Israel simply providing police protection to the Temple Mount and not throwing out all Muslim worshippers?
  • Why isn't Israel simply marching into the Gaza strip with ground troops to kill and drive out the Arab-Palestinians?
  • Why is Israel working with the Palestinian Authority at all?

Israel and Palestine are in a war that goes back 73 years.  Palestine's Arab population has quadrupled over that time.  Israel has been more than accommodating to Palestinians and Arabs who are not hostile to their very existence and by all accounts will continue to do so.

Calling the current events a genocide ignores the decades of events leading up to it and the reality of the situation.  Are they heavy handed?  YES.  Do I think they should stop bombing the Gaza strip?  YES.  Have they killed innocent people unnecessarily?  YES.  All that said, it still doesn't rise to the level of genocide.  Note even close.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, -fish- said:

I don't think anyone is supporting Hamas here.   

But Israel is not blameless in its actions, and its abhorrent human rights violations as to innocent Palestinians.   The Palestinians under military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza have little to no freedom of movement...they have nowhere to go.   Israel restricts supplies of basic necessities like clean water, electricity and health care.   Israel has one of the most aggressive Covid-19 vaccination programs in the world, but chose not to supply vaccines to Palestinians in the occupied territories.    That's nearly 5 million people with no access to a vaccine, because the powers that be would rather see innocent people get sick and die.  That's on Israel, and no better than sending blankets full of small pox to Native Americans.   It took a century or two, but we finally recognized that as genocide, too.

There are also some questions about how truthful the IDF is when it attacks targets, claiming Hamas is lurking there.   The press center that was recently destroyed was supposedly being used by Hamas, and Israel claimed to have provided proof to the US.  At this point, US officials have denied seeing any such proof.   There are documented events where Hamas turned a school into a base for staging attacks, but there are also instances where Israel made such claims with no evidence, and innocents were killed.   

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/15/israel-airstrike-media/

 i still think Hamas shouldn't be hiding behind women and children.  

Edited by kodycutter
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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, -fish- said:

I don't think anyone is supporting Hamas here.   

But Israel is not blameless in its actions, and its abhorrent human rights violations as to innocent Palestinians.   The Palestinians under military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza have little to no freedom of movement...they have nowhere to go.   Israel restricts supplies of basic necessities like clean water, electricity and health care.   Israel has one of the most aggressive Covid-19 vaccination programs in the world, but chose not to supply vaccines to Palestinians in the occupied territories.    That's nearly 5 million people with no access to a vaccine, because the powers that be would rather see innocent people get sick and die.  That's on Israel, and no better than sending blankets full of small pox to Native Americans.   It took a century or two, but we finally recognized that as genocide, too.

There are also some questions about how truthful the IDF is when it attacks targets, claiming Hamas is lurking there.   The press center that was recently destroyed was supposedly being used by Hamas, and Israel claimed to have provided proof to the US.  At this point, US officials have denied seeing any such proof.   There are documented events where Hamas turned a school into a base for staging attacks, but there are also instances where Israel made such claims with no evidence, and innocents were killed.   

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/15/israel-airstrike-media/

But what about the border with Egypt?  If Israel isn't the governing body over Gaza and they have a fourth border they can use, why is their current situation all Israel's fault?  Why also, if life there is so atrocious, are the Palestinians reproducing like rabbits?  The fertility rates in the Gaza strip rival that of the poorest nations in Africa despite the Palestinians being a highly educated populace.

The answer to all of those questions is that Palestine doesn't just want to be left alone.  They are openly hostile to Israel as a nation and have been since 1947.  Gaza elected a terrorist organization as their acting government and that government has committed acts of war against Israel.  Israel doesn't want control of Gaza, they just refuse to let it be a constant staging ground for attacks in their borders.  Hamas reminds me of that player who is constantly trying to pick a fight with the opponent during a game by committing cheap shots, only to throw their hands up and act innocent when the opponent retaliates.  They've been goading Israel for 15 years now and are trying to cry foul now that Israel is trying to put a stop to it.

Edited by Jayrod
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4 hours ago, Navin Johnson said:

What part of throwing a stun grenade at medics and journalists is defensive.  Are the journalist members of Hamas?  The medics?  Does it matter?

https://youtu.be/fiOIDM1uGlE

Seriously?  There is a war where people are dying and you post a video of a guy NOT actually throwing a stun grenade?

First of all, he DIDN'T actually throw the grenade.  Second of all, it is a stun grenade and is meant to move people, not kill anyone. 

Wow, how can you support what Palestine is doing by actually shooting 3,000+ rockets and then say this non-grenade throw is something to be upset by?  Yeah, clearly you have no agenda here.  :rolleyes:

 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

But what about the border with Egypt?  If Israel isn't the governing body over Gaza and they have a fourth border they can use, why is their current situation all Israel's fault?  Why also, if life there is so atrocious, are the Palestinians reproducing like rabbits?  The fertility rates in the Gaza strip rival that of the poorest nations in Africa despite the Palestinians being a highly educated populace.

The answer to all of those questions is that Palestine doesn't just want to be left alone.  They are openly hostile to Israel as a nation and have been since 1947.  Gaza elected a terrorist organization as their acting government and that government has committed acts of war against Israel.  Israel doesn't want control of Gaza, they just refuse to let it be a constant staging ground for attacks in their borders.  Hamas reminds me of that player who is constantly trying to pick a fight with the opponent during a game by committing cheap shots, only to throw their hands up and act innocent when the opponent retaliates.  They've been goading Israel for 15 years now and are trying to cry foul now that Israel is trying to put a stop to it.

The dehumanization of a population by comparing them to animals is a hallmark of a genocide.   You should try going to the Holocaust Museum sometime.  Your posts in here are frankly disgusting.  

Dehumanization

More on dehumanization

You throw around "anti-Semite" and then argue with strategies taken from Rosenberg and Goebbels.  

Edited by -fish-
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22 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

But what about the border with Egypt?  If Israel isn't the governing body over Gaza and they have a fourth border they can use, why is their current situation all Israel's fault? 

The border has been essentially closed for nearly 15 years.  Palestinians in Gaza cannot enter or leave without Israeli permission.  It's essentially an open-air prison.   

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1 hour ago, -fish- said:

The border has been essentially closed for nearly 15 years.  Palestinians in Gaza cannot enter or leave without Israeli permission.  It's essentially an open-air prison.   

Egypt could change that, no?

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2 hours ago, Jayrod said:

Here are the facts as I understand them:

  1. 1917-1920 - A "Jewish homeland" was established in Palestine by the UK after WW1 and the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.  A handful of Jews went there and settled in the region.  There wasn't much settled regarding a ruling government at this time.  Local Arabic people groups (Palestinians?) were very unhappy with this at the time but most of it was done with the authority and control by the British military.  The original plan from many was an international zone, but the Jews (mainly Zionists) wanted a permanent home in their "promised land".
  2. WW2 sees the Holocaust with the killing of some 6 million Jews.  After this, many of the remaining Jews head to the Palestinian region.  In 1947, Israel declares itself a nation with borders drawn up (much more favorable to Palestine than they are today).
  3. The Arab people in and around this new Israel don't like the setup and a "civil war" was started immediately.  In 1948 the Arab nations around the new country attack Israel in an attempt to destroy them and drive the Jews out of the region.  It backfires as they lose and Israel not only remains, but ends up expanding their territory beyond what was originally established a year earlier along the "Green Line" border.  Israel develops into a democratic nation with civil liberties allowed for all citizens including Arabs.  The Temple Mount and East Jerusalem remains under control of Jordan and Egypt controls the Gaza strip.
  4. From 1949-1967, Israel faced countless terrorist attacks and the formation of military campaigns on all sides from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt.  In 1967 when a strike seemed eminent, Israel struck at the military buildups along its borders first and led a stunning military campaign that won the war in 6 days.  They essentially took control of the entirety of what is Palestine today and the Sinai Peninsula.  Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were driven out of their homes by the military campaign and ended up in refugee camps.  Many of those camps still exist to this day and the Palestinians still expect they will return home within Israel to what was their home 54 years ago.  Israel won't let them come back.
  5. After the Six-day war, the UN told Israel to give back the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza and the Golan Heights in exchange for peace.  The ceded all of Sinai back to Egypt and the Gaza strip to Palestine and some control of the West Bank.  However, they kept a lot of control in place over these regions (outside of Sinai).
  6. A couple of uprisings or "Intifadas" are conducted by the Palestinians in and around Israel.  Both end up with a lot of casualties on both sides.  These events are used as Israeli justification to tighten up control of the region, but they still move to allow a Palestinian government to form and maintain full citizenship rights for all Arabic Israeli citizens.
  7. Jews begin to settle into the Palestinian regions under Israeli control along the West Bank and East Jerusalem.  Gaza is basically cut off from 3 sides (the sea and two sides along the Israeli border) by Israel.  The fourth side is with Egypt who for their own reasons close their border.  Hamas gains control in 2005 of the Gaza and is openly hostile towards Israel.  The Palestinian Authority continues to operate with limited power and control.

This brings us to the recent events.  Basically, Hamas is upset not about the blockade of Gaza, but the Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and their police presence at the Al-Aqsa mosque.  That is their justification for blasting like 3,000+ rockets over the wall in 10 days.  And those rockets are why Israel is attacking the Gaza strip.

I say all of that to say that if this were genocide:

  • Why is Israel allowing Arab-Israeli citizens (including parliamentary & legal representation)? 
  • Why is Israel simply providing police protection to the Temple Mount and not throwing out all Muslim worshippers?
  • Why isn't Israel simply marching into the Gaza strip with ground troops to kill and drive out the Arab-Palestinians?
  • Why is Israel working with the Palestinian Authority at all?

Israel and Palestine are in a war that goes back 73 years.  Palestine's Arab population has quadrupled over that time.  Israel has been more than accommodating to Palestinians and Arabs who are not hostile to their very existence and by all accounts will continue to do so.

Calling the current events a genocide ignores the decades of events leading up to it and the reality of the situation.  Are they heavy handed?  YES.  Do I think they should stop bombing the Gaza strip?  YES.  Have they killed innocent people unnecessarily?  YES.  All that said, it still doesn't rise to the level of genocide.  Note even close.

nice job.  concise & accurate in my limited historical opinion.

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32 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

Egypt could change that, no?

Egypt isn't going to change it until there is a new Palestinian government, which isn't going to happen as long as the West Bank and Gaza are occupied by the Israeli military.  The whole situation is a disaster, which is why negotiations have failed for decades.  The only thing that really makes sense is a two-state solution, but either one or both sides has flat-out rejected the idea each time it has been proposed.

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1 hour ago, -fish- said:

Egypt isn't going to change it until there is a new Palestinian government, which isn't going to happen as long as the West Bank and Gaza are occupied by the Israeli military.  The whole situation is a disaster, which is why negotiations have failed for decades.  The only thing that really makes sense is a two-state solution, but either one or both sides has flat-out rejected the idea each time it has been proposed.

One side has never said yes.   They want isreal destroyed.   They want a one state solution.   Everything could be over in 5 minutes if they said yes.

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1 hour ago, quick-hands said:

One side has never said yes.   They want isreal destroyed.   They want a one state solution.   Everything could be over in 5 minutes if they said yes.

israel has also rejected it.  

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2 hours ago, -fish- said:

israel has also rejected it.  

They have extended their hand repeatedly.   Why do you deny it?   Whats your angle.    At this point.   Over the last 20 years.   The palistineans are the road block.

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11 minutes ago, quick-hands said:

They have extended their hand repeatedly.   Why do you deny it?   Whats your angle.    At this point.   Over the last 20 years.   The palistineans are the road block.

This isn’t the whole story, Israel has treated the Palestinians like crap. 

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