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Remember when, around a year ago, a lot of people complained that this forum skewed left? (1 Viewer)

Shula-holic said:
What remedy outside of equality would you advocate for?  We are talking for the most part about sins that were before any of our time here.  That's not to say in a naive way that the country is perfect or racism doesn't exist.  But equality and treating everyone equally is the best prescription I can think of to help fix those things and judging people on their own merit.  Any solution that involves ensuring equal outcomes for every racial group, gender, belief, religion, whatever it may be, I admit I'm just not interested in.
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"Equality" does not account for the pre-existing disadvantages.

Its like Tonya Harding knee-capping Nancy Kerrigan, and then saying - "lets just judge our skating going forward.  May the best girl win!"

 
Shula-holic said:
To me this comes down to where I don't think a lot of people truly want equality.  They want equity.  They are two totally different things.  I'm all for the first, with every fiber of my being  But to try and force the second would likely lead to some very very bad places.
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I think this is an accurate portrayal of what conservatives believe that progressives want. It is not, however, an accurate portrayal of what progressives want. 
I believe you’re creating a straw man and knocking it down. 

 
rockaction said:
I don't know. I don't really care. I've seen your act before. It's not cool. At all.

This is who I be. If you don't know me, it's probably an effort to do so. I post quite a bit here.

<-------------------------------------
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Ok, cool I just wanted to make sure I had no reason to care. Feel free to block. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
"Equality" does not account for the pre-existing disadvantages.

Its like Tonya Harding knee-capping Nancy Kerrigan, and then saying - "lets just judge our skating going forward.  May the best girl win!"
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Pretty much agree with this. Of course it’s more complicated. 

The problem is though that the solutions that progressives usually suggest- which inevitably involve some sort of government help for those who begin with less advantages- inevitably create resentment among those who don’t receive the help. And often that makes the problem you’re trying to solve even worse than it was before. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, it doesn’t mean that I am opposed to the progressive solutions- I am after all generally a liberal when it comes to social concerns. But there is a dilemma here that I haven’t quite been able to reconcile in my mind. 

 
Shula-holic said:
I think it's a noble goal but I don't think funding is the main issue.  I can't speak nationally, but I can speak for our state as my wife is involved in education.  Some of our worst districts already have the highest per student spending.  Now, our top district is a wealthy one but it's also our wealthiest city/suburb in the state.  I can look the link up for you if you like, but there was a study done on it showing our top 50 districts in the state by per pupil spending  Out of our top 20 in spending there's only 4-5 you'd want your kid going near. 

The biggest problems in those districts are parents.  My wife taught in one and we have friends who do.  It's a notable thing when they have a parent take interest in their child's homework enough to email or come to a meeting.  That isn't the case in other districts.  I'm not some overly religious person, in fact most of the so called pagan lefties here have likely been to church more than I have in the past 20 years.  But we have a serious issue with family breakdowns and parenting.  In many cases some of these parents do heroic jobs and do their best with what they have, but when you talk about ingredients, having an involved mother and father is the most important one IMO.  Who of us would have been a great student if our parents hadn't pushed us?
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Extremely :goodposting: It's unfortunate children born into suboptimal parenting situations (and I'm not referring to finances) has them starting from behind, but generally this is not a problem for big government to solve. It's on the community to create opportunities. Not all will be successful (many won't), but this is how one makes an impact. This is one reason I've recently gotten into coaching. Impacted kids need more positive influences (whether it's encouragement, accountability, or anything in between) in their lives because they're not getting it at home. 

 
bigmarc27 said:
I’m white.  I’ve got plenty of family that are self-described poor white trash. They take pride in that title for some reason. If it hits too close to the mobile home for you, my very sincerest apologies. 

Also 60 whole years?  Oh, wow. 60 years. Wow, that does seem like a lot of time.  Enslave people for centuries, but let them go without support and expect them to catch up in 60 years. You’re right, #### ‘em!
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you realize whites were made slaves in Africa?

 
shadrap said:
you realize whites were made slaves in Africa?
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Yes, ok?  That’s terrible, they should do everything they can to make amends and treat them fairly and equally. Why would that even be a question?  I don’t get to vote in Africa, but I encourage anyone who does so to vote for equality for all. 

 
Shula-holic said:
I think it's a noble goal but I don't think funding is the main issue.  I can't speak nationally, but I can speak for our state as my wife is involved in education.  Some of our worst districts already have the highest per student spending.  Now, our top district is a wealthy one but it's also our wealthiest city/suburb in the state.  I can look the link up for you if you like, but there was a study done on it showing our top 50 districts in the state by per pupil spending  Out of our top 20 in spending there's only 4-5 you'd want your kid going near. 

The biggest problems in those districts are parents.  My wife taught in one and we have friends who do.  It's a notable thing when they have a parent take interest in their child's homework enough to email or come to a meeting.  That isn't the case in other districts.  I'm not some overly religious person, in fact most of the so called pagan lefties here have likely been to church more than I have in the past 20 years.  But we have a serious issue with family breakdowns and parenting.  In many cases some of these parents do heroic jobs and do their best with what they have, but when you talk about ingredients, having an involved mother and father is the most important one IMO.  Who of us would have been a great student if our parents hadn't pushed us?
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no one has the guts in politics to address this especially the race mongers such as Jessie Jackson & Al Sharpton..  no one has the courage to admit the family unit in the black community is not healthy.  no one has the courage to say "it's my fault".  It's not my fault, it's your fault.   That is a lot easier than some people looking in the mirror.

 
Wow, look at that! A good discussion broke out in the PSF! For a bit, anyway.

Lots of excellent points here, from several perspectives. When I think of equality vs. equity, I think of 2 guys, of absolutely equal knowledge and ability, tasked with designing and building a piece of furniture.  The first guy has a professional grade wood shop, replete with all the necessary tools and products to build most anything.  The second guy has a handsaw and a flat head screwdriver.  Which one is going to make a better chair? I guess there's a tiny chance the second guy will, but the vast majority of the time, it's the first. Talent or ability has little to do with it, the means made all the difference. 

We can't make someone more intelligent, or athletically gifted, or magically supply all children with 2 caring, gainfully employed parents. But we CAN work harder at supplying those that don't start with inherent advantages the tools they may otherwise have lacked because of their varying "situations."

 
Sinn Fein said:
That probably explains why not many whites want to go live in Africa as a minority
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All the poor white slave descendants in Africa were close to equality, but then someone mentioned that Elon Musk’s children have an advantage because he was white and rich and from Africa, and then *bam* everyone knew the poor depressed whites of the Sahara were doomed. 

 
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bigmarc27 said:
Yes, ok?  That’s terrible, they should do everything they can to make amends and treat them fairly and equally. Why would that even be a question?  I don’t get to vote in Africa, but I encourage anyone who does so to vote for equality for all. 
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well, thinking I might deserve some reparations.

 
Sinn Fein said:
"Equality" does not account for the pre-existing disadvantages.

Its like Tonya Harding knee-capping Nancy Kerrigan, and then saying - "lets just judge our skating going forward.  May the best girl win!"
Click to expand...
Only problem with that analogy is that Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan would have long since been dead or at best in a nursing home. 

And I need to add, again, racism does still exist.  We need to be aware of that and of prejudice.  But the people who truly were treated the worst and the ones who implemented that harm are long gone.  We have to make sure we do our best to make sure that never happens again.  I don't see where a path of dividing by race is healthy long term.

 
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timschochet said:
I think this is an accurate portrayal of what conservatives believe that progressives want. It is not, however, an accurate portrayal of what progressives want. 
I believe you’re creating a straw man and knocking it down. 
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Only I'm not.  Just go read the responses to see that I'm getting blowback for making that statement.  If it were truly a strawman, you'd have people saying, "Of course I don't want that, you're being foolish".  But, it didn't go that way.

 
Shula-holic said:
Only I'm not.  Just go read the responses to see that I'm getting blowback for making that statement.  If it were truly a strawman, you'd have people saying, "Of course I don't want that, you're being foolish".  But, it didn't go that way.
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All right. Let’s translate this to a specific. Give me a progressive policy proposal that you’re opposed to because it’s about equity rather than equality of opportunity. 

 
Herb said:
Wow, look at that! A good discussion broke out in the PSF! For a bit, anyway.

Lots of excellent points here, from several perspectives. When I think of equality vs. equity, I think of 2 guys, of absolutely equal knowledge and ability, tasked with designing and building a piece of furniture.  The first guy has a professional grade wood shop, replete with all the necessary tools and products to build most anything.  The second guy has a handsaw and a flat head screwdriver.  Which one is going to make a better chair? I guess there's a tiny chance the second guy will, but the vast majority of the time, it's the first. Talent or ability has little to do with it, the means made all the difference. 

We can't make someone more intelligent, or athletically gifted, or magically supply all children with 2 caring, gainfully employed parents. But we CAN work harder at supplying those that don't start with inherent advantages the tools they may otherwise have lacked because of their varying "situations."
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I'm not opposed to trying to help get tools, in this case for kids because we all agree that early on is the time to intervene if we are going to at all.  What I'm opposed to is to automatically say one chair is better, regardless of the finished product, because we assume the tools weren't there due to someone's skin color.  It makes it even tougher because we might not even know which skin color had the better tools on a case by case basis.  We would be assuming due to someone's skin color, and I think doing that is always wrong.  

 
Shula-holic said:
I'm not opposed to trying to help get tools, in this case for kids because we all agree that early on is the time to intervene if we are going to at all.  What I'm opposed to is to automatically say one chair is better, regardless of the finished product, because we assume the tools weren't there due to someone's skin color.  It makes it even tougher because we might not even know which skin color had the better tools on a case by case basis.  We would be assuming due to someone's skin color, and I think doing that is always wrong.  
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I don't think in my example skin color should be all that relevant. It's more about identifying specific areas of need and addressing them head on, on a case by case basis. Even if that case is an entire county.

Also, FWIW, you and I are not real sympatico politically, but you are a helluva good poster. You're honest, make your points well and don't engage in the slapfight BS that goes on. You type, I read and learn. Thank you.

 
Shula-holic said:
I'm not opposed to trying to help get tools, in this case for kids because we all agree that early on is the time to intervene if we are going to at all.  What I'm opposed to is to automatically say one chair is better, regardless of the finished product, because we assume the tools weren't there due to someone's skin color.  It makes it even tougher because we might not even know which skin color had the better tools on a case by case basis.  We would be assuming due to someone's skin color, and I think doing that is always wrong.  
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But we CAN make some assumptions. 
 

I live in Huntington Beach, an mid to upper class city in Orange County, largely white. Less than 15 miles away from me is North Long Beach, largely black and Mexican. The kids that attend public school there don’t get the education my kids did- they didn’t get the supplies, the teachers, the books, the resources. They don’t have the opportunity to go to higher learning as my kids did. Their chances of economic success are significantly lower. You can blame racism, or other factors, but the reality doesn’t change whatever reason you come up with: they need more help than I do. Why shouldn’t we as a society see that they get it? 

 
timschochet said:
All right. Let’s translate this to a specific. Give me a progressive policy proposal that you’re opposed to because it’s about equity rather than equality of opportunity. 
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Well, I gave an example of my point, which is it's not a strawman, to back me up those examples are right up the thread here.  So we are moving the goalposts a bit here from the original point. 

We've already discussed in these forums the debt forgiveness for black farmers, Harvard using race for admissions, etc.  I'm not a fan of using race to choose winners and losers.  I'd have hoped we would have learned from that in our past.

 
Shula-holic said:
Well, I gave an example of my point, which is it's not a strawman, to back me up those examples are right up the thread here.  So we are moving the goalposts a bit here from the original point. 

We've already discussed in these forums the debt forgiveness for black farmers, Harvard using race for admissions, etc.  I'm not a fan of using race to choose winners and losers.  I'd have hoped we would have learned from that in our past.
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In our past we didn’t use race in a positive way. In the two examples you’re citing, race is used to promote, rather than to negate. at least that is the intention. As I warned earlier, while I am generally in favor of such measures I acknowledge the resentment they cause. 
 

 
timschochet said:
But we CAN make some assumptions. 
 

I live in Huntington Beach, an mid to upper class city in Orange County, largely white. Less than 15 miles away from me is North Long Beach, largely black and Mexican. The kids that attend public school there don’t get the education my kids did- they didn’t get the supplies, the teachers, the books, the resources. They don’t have the opportunity to go to higher learning as my kids did. Their chances of economic success are significantly lower. You can blame racism, or other factors, but the reality doesn’t change whatever reason you come up with: they need more help than I do. Why shouldn’t we as a society see that they get it? 
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OK, do you know if they pay those teachers differently or why the teachers would be substandard?  Why is it that the kids in the other district don't fare as well?  I'm not familiar with California's public education funding.  I would just imagine it's more progressive than Alabama's, a real stretch.  But I can give you a link to show our district by district funding.  I can go down that list and tell you that the majority of the top 10, top 20, are largely minority students.  I can't imagine if Alabama is doing this that California isn't funding those districts in at least equal amounts. 

I go back to my earlier statement of what my wife experienced when she taught in a poorer district, it's the family and parental involvement.  The kids she remembers sticking out because their parents were involved largely have gone on to graduate, do much better in comparison to those who didn't.  I'm assuming that you went to PTA meetings, meet the teachers, got emails or communicated with your child's teachers.  From what she's said, our friends who teach in those districts say now, that is the exception there, not the rule.  I think MAC posted something similar to this earlier, but it's a heavy undertaking for the state to fix a parenting issue.  It's noble to try, but a lot of the outcome disparity is because of lack of a family unit at home to support the student.  When we talk giving someone the right tools to succeed, it all starts there.  And I admit, I don't know how we fix that root cause.

 
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timschochet said:
In our past we didn’t use race in a positive way. In the two examples you’re citing, race is used to promote, rather than to negate. at least that is the intention. As I warned earlier, while I am generally in favor of such measures I acknowledge the resentment they cause. 
 
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It all depends on which kid you are.  One is promoted, one is negated.  It's not shocking that would cause resentment as you state.  I can imagine if you're an 18 year old kid who has worked their whole life to achieve a dream and to be denied not because your scores or effort came up short, but because you were the wrong color, yeah I think you might resent it.  Even worse, you might grow to hate because of it.  I can do without people who hate others due to their race, I really don't want to create more of them.

 
Shula-holic said:
OK, do you know if they pay those teachers differently or why the teachers would be substandard?  Why is it that the kids in the other district don't fare as well?  I'm not familiar with California's public education funding.  I would just imagine it's more progressive than Alabama's, a real stretch.  But I can give you a link to show our district by district funding.  I can go down that list and tell you that the majority of the top 10, top 20, are largely minority students.  I can't imagine if Alabama is doing this that California isn't funding those districts in at least equal amounts. 

I go back to my earlier statement of what my wife experienced when she taught in a poorer district, it's the family and parental involvement.  The kids she remembers sticking out because their parents were involved largely have gone on to graduate, do much better in comparison to those who didn't.  I'm assuming that you went to PTA meetings, meet the teachers, got emails or communicated with your child's teachers.  From what she's said, our friends who teach in those districts say now, that is the exception there, not the rule.  I think MAC posted something similar to this earlier, but it's a heavy undertaking for the state to fix a parenting issue.  It's noble to try, but a lot of the outcome disparity is because of lack of a family unit at home to support the student.  When we talk giving someone the right tools to succeed, it all starts there.  And I admit, I don't know how we fix that root cause.
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It can't be fixed. Parents have the right to procreate. And they have the right to be disengaged from any segment of that child's upbringing. As long as that child is not endangered then there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it. 

 
Herb said:
Wow, look at that! A good discussion broke out in the PSF! For a bit, anyway.

Lots of excellent points here, from several perspectives. When I think of equality vs. equity, I think of 2 guys, of absolutely equal knowledge and ability, tasked with designing and building a piece of furniture.  The first guy has a professional grade wood shop, replete with all the necessary tools and products to build most anything.  The second guy has a handsaw and a flat head screwdriver.  Which one is going to make a better chair? I guess there's a tiny chance the second guy will, but the vast majority of the time, it's the first. Talent or ability has little to do with it, the means made all the difference. 

We can't make someone more intelligent, or athletically gifted, or magically supply all children with 2 caring, gainfully employed parents. But we CAN work harder at supplying those that don't start with inherent advantages the tools they may otherwise have lacked because of their varying "situations."
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I really hate these analogies.   So the first guy, worked hard, saved $$ where possible, sacrificed to have these tools and took care of them.  The other person did none of this and now will be given them--for free.

Nope.   I feel we need a better solution.

 
supermike80 said:
I really hate these analogies.   So the first guy, worked hard, saved $$ where possible, sacrificed to have these tools and took care of them.  The other person did none of this and now will be given them--for free.

Nope.   I feel we need a better solution.
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Yep.  

Unfortunately, life deals out bad hands all the time.  All we can do is make sure going forward that the playing field is leveled.  And that doesn't mean we fight racism with more racism.  And that doesn't mean we start taking things away from people who had ZERO to do with slavery either (see S.Africa), whether it's thru equity OR payback.

I can guarantee you that if that starts happening not only will it create MORE racists, it'll end up violent as well.

 
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BladeRunner said:
Yep.  

Unfortunately, life deals out bad hands all the time.  All we can do is make sure going forward that the playing field is leveled.  And that doesn't mean we fight racism with more racism.  And that doesn't mean we start taking things away from people either (see S.Africa), whether it's thru equity OR payback.

I can guarantee you that if that starts happening not only will it create MORE racists, it'll end up violent as well.
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Point made earlier we can do more with the education system--especially in poor areas.  I am very fine with that and I think it's a good start.   And as I have said, I am 100% against taking things from people, to prop up others.  That's just not going to work well.

 
supermike80 said:
Point made earlier we can do more with the education system--especially in poor areas.  I am very fine with that and I think it's a good start.   And as I have said, I am 100% against taking things from people, to prop up others.  That's just not going to work well.
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I feel that we already spend way more on education in poor areas than we do anywhere else.  I think a poster previously showed that the $$$ per student were more in poor/disadvantaged school districts than anywhere else and yet the results are still the same.  Same here where I live.

I think the REAL problem - especially in the black community - is the single mother hood rate (as @MAC_32 and @Shula-holic talked about above).  We're at the point where we now glorify single mothers and throw money at them. We basically pay them to stay single.  We have a generations of men growing up being taught how to be men - by women!  I don't know how we tackle this problem but we need to stop glorifying them and start getting the men to take responsibility for sleeping around.  There is ZERO doubt that kids growing up in 2 parent homes with a mother and a father have a massive advantage and are much less likely to end up in the criminal justice system.

Everyone is afraid to talk about this issue for fear of offending people and being called RACIST!  But facts are facts and truth is the truth.  That is the #1 issue they should be trying to resolve.

 
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supermike80 said:
I really hate these analogies.   So the first guy, worked hard, saved $$ where possible, sacrificed to have these tools and took care of them.  The other person did none of this and now will be given them--for free.

Nope.   I feel we need a better solution.
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Excet he does not say the guy saved or sacrificed to have those tools.  What if he was given them...what if the inly reason he has those tools is he was born into wealth in a prime location and the other born poor and an immigrant and spent everything he had to come here to learn to build furniture?

 
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timschochet said:
All right. Let’s translate this to a specific. Give me a progressive policy proposal that you’re opposed to because it’s about equity rather than equality of opportunity. 
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didn't a bunch of black farmers just get a bunch of money for being, well, black farmers?

 
dkp993 said:
Great questions.  And I'm not sure.  I'm not in line with reparations or dividing/boiling everything down to race.  But I think at least it starts with understanding it's real and having some empathy.  I carry not 1 ounce of guilt for being a white male, no more so then I do for winning the genetic lotto of being born in the US.  I was also born to a very poor lower middle class family and have earned every inch of what I have.  But I also understand despite this I still had advantages others don't.  I believe if we start from that place of understanding we can at least start to work on the extremely complicated solutions (of which I don't claim to know the answers too).  But denying it's a reality (which you aren't doing and I'm not saying you are) doesn't lead us on a path to a solution.
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This is the best we can hope for.  It's on individuals to take action based on that reality.

 
sho nuff said:
Excet he does not say the guy saved to war those tools.  What if he was given them...what if the inly reason he has those tools is he was born into wealth in a prime location and the other born poor and an immigrant and spent everything he had to come here to learn to build furniture?
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What are you talking about?

 
timschochet said:
I think this is an accurate portrayal of what conservatives believe that progressives want. It is not, however, an accurate portrayal of what progressives want. 
I believe you’re creating a straw man and knocking it down. 
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He's not....the issue here is "progressives" are tying money/material things to equality and framing it through that lens.  It's a mistake I see over and over and over again and a large part of the reason we don't get very far on this front.  There is far more to this equation than the fruits of material things and money, yet a good number can only seem to focus on those things.  It won't ever correct with that line of thinking.  Progressives going this path simply give the "other side" another path to ignoring the core problem(s) when they do this.

 
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