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Greatest Players of All-Time WHO ARE NOT YET in the Hall of Fame


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Posted (edited)

I  was doing some pondering, and I thought to myself, there's a lot of guys who have been retired for at least 5 years that are not yet in the Hall of Fame.  When NFL Network did their 100th Anniversary Team & they did the finalists for each position, I thought to myself that every single one of these guys should be in Canton someday.  But, there are a few of them, including some who have already passed on, that have not yet made it to the Hall of Fame.  Here are a few names:

 

Ron Kramer

He was a great tight end back in the 1960s for the Packers and helped the Packers to three NFL championships.  NOT in the Hall of Fame yet.

 

Tom Sestak & Gene "Big Daddy" Lipscomb

These are two of the greatest defensive tackles of All-Time.  Lipscomb made a big name for himself for the Colts in the late 1950s before he died, and Sestak helped the Bills become a great team in the 1960s.

 

Jerrel Wilson

He was one of the greatest punters of all-time who helped the Chiefs become a powerhouse back in the late 1960s and late 1970s.

 

And there's an entire position that has yet to be recognized by the Hall of Fame: Return Specialist.  I don't know how long Devin Hester has been out of the league yet, but he should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer.  Brian Mitchell and Mel Gray have been on the ballot for many years as preliminary nominees, but can't make it past the preliminary round.  What about  Billy "White Shoes" Johnson?  He should've been voted into the Hall of Fame a long time ago.  Yes, return specialists are Hall of Famers too!

 

If anyone has a guy that I didn't mention, please feel free to let me know.  But, just remember: the player has to be retired for at least 5 years to qualify!

Edited by Yogibear
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Based on PFR’s HOF Monitor Score, here are the highest rated players that are eligible but not in the HOF:

LB Zach Thomas - 112.75
OT Jim Tyrer - 111.88
WR Reggie Wayne - 108.01
LB Patrick Willis - 107.13
WR Torry Holt - 105.27
DT Kevin Williams - 103.28
S Leroy Butler - 97.75
DE Richard Seymour - 97.28

IIRC, those are the only players with scores of 90+ not inducted. 

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4 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Based on PFR’s HOF Monitor Score, here are the highest rated players that are eligible but not in the HOF:

LB Zach Thomas - 112.75
OT Jim Tyrer - 111.88
WR Reggie Wayne - 108.01
LB Patrick Willis - 107.13
WR Torry Holt - 105.27
DT Kevin Williams - 103.28
S Leroy Butler - 97.75
DE Richard Seymour - 97.28

IIRC, those are the only players with scores of 90+ not inducted. 

This is who I came to post. Neither one seemed to get the respect they deserve. 

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2 hours ago, Mr. Peterson said:

One of the greatest Special Teams players ever.

Steve Tasker. 

I may be in the minority (maybe, maybe not) in that I am not a huge fan of special teamers having great chances at becoming HOFers. The best special teamers are generally players that were not good enough to be regular players on offense or defense (let alone top producers on offense or defense).

Another issue is that special teamers only play a handful of snaps a game and the huge majority of the time the results of a play are not noteworthy. As a for instance, if a player did a great job downing a kick at the one yard line, how many times might that happen in a year? Three? But that would only save 57 yards over the course of a season.

The same can be said about most kick returners, A couple of guys will break a long return for a TD or two, but without those 2-3 long returns, their return numbers would be similar to any number of returners in the league. Last year, Andre Roberts led the league with a 30 yard kickoff return average. With most kickoffs going into the end zone these days, teams get 25 yards plus where the kicker received the ball for free (since touchbacks start at the 25 yard line). Fielding a kickoff halfway into the end zone and running it to the 25 yard line would net the same field position as just taking the touchback (without risking a fumble). Based on that, is there really a huge difference in field position when maybe a couple of kickoff returns per year amount to something substantial?

A case could also be made that there really isn't a ton of difference between place kickers. As a for instance, in 2020, there were 32 kickers that attempted at least 10 FG attempts. The #10 kicker based on percentage of kicks made converted 92.3% of his attempts. Would having the best kicker last year in terms of accuracy vs. the 10th best kicker have made that much difference?

Let's use recently retired and NFL all-time leading scorer Adam Vinatieri as another example. The man scored 2,673 points from 1996-2019. I mean, what a legend! But if you had the choice of taking Adam V's point total in that time or the summation of the 15th leading scorer from each individual season in that time added together, who would you pick? Vinatieri would win that comparison . . . BARELY. Vinatieri scored 2,673 points in that time. The 15th best kicker in scoring each year added all together would have scored 2,633 points. Sure, we all remember a handful of clutch kicks he made in his early years with NE, but Vinatieri across his career was about average in terms of scoring points for a kicker . . . he just did it for a very long time . . . and 24 years played got him enough longevity to amass a ton of points scored.

You suggested Tasker. I would counter with a current generation S/T player Matthew Slater. Is there much of a difference between them? Tasker played 14 seasons, went to 4 SB's, and was a Pro Bowler 7 times. Slater has played 13 seasons, went to 5 SB's, was a Pro Bowler 9 times and was selected first team All Pro twice and second team All Pro twice. I wouldn't think either one of them have great HOF numbers or chances.

Tasker has a career AV of 7 (yes, that is for his entire career). Slater's career AV is only 3. Taker's HOF Monitor score is 15.38. Slater's is 26.50. Were either one of them all that special in terms of impacting the games they played in? A lot of the geeky advanced stat metrics base rankings and player scores based on value above replacement, and the sad truth is that special teamers really don't impact the game all that much (or very often) and they aren't on the field for many snaps.

There are several positions like that in football. Fullback. Short yardage / goal line back. Receiving back. Blocking tight end. Nickel cornerback. Third down edge rusher. Long snapper. They are all important positions at times, but they aren't really the marquee or banner headline positions that have huge impact on a game's outcome over and over again. It's like a utility infielder, a pinch hitter, middle inning reliever, or a lefthanded relief specialist that only comes in to face a single lefthanded batter. If these players were elite athletes and better at the game, they wouldn't have been in those roles in the first place.

So sure, Tasker was a great special teams player. But that also means he wasn't an elite offensive or defensive player. Statistically, even the best special teamers weren't leaps and bounds above the rest of the league and the better known ones didn't move the needle a ton in terms of their impact on a game week in and week out. If they start inducting special teamers or specialists, that will mean other players that played a ton more snaps won't get in (unless they start elected way more players than they do now).

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Posted (edited)

The Myth of Steve Tasker is multiple factors greater than his historic reality. I am a born and bred Bills fan and watched every game of theirs throughout the 80's and 90's and for my money while I loved the plays tasker made he was at most the 23rd most valuable player on those teams 

Edited by Joe Schmo
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5 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Based on PFR’s HOF Monitor Score, here are the highest rated players that are eligible but not in the HOF:

LB Zach Thomas - 112.75
OT Jim Tyrer - 111.88
WR Reggie Wayne - 108.01
LB Patrick Willis - 107.13
WR Torry Holt - 105.27
DT Kevin Williams - 103.28
S Leroy Butler - 97.75
DE Richard Seymour - 97.28

IIRC, those are the only players with scores of 90+ not inducted. 

Only player on the first team of 1990s all decade team to not be enshrined.  

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Interestingly Butler's PFR HOF Monitor score is slightly ahead of recent safety inductions (Polamalu and Atwater) and way ahead of John Lynch (67.33).  

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15 minutes ago, elguapo07 said:

Injuries derailed his HOF trajectory but Mark Bavaro was the template for Gronk.

I remember Bavaro mostly because that was back in an era when you could only watch teams in your local market if you lived within 50 miles. I seem to remember things a little differently than you do.

Bavaro and Gronk have played in almost the same number of games (a difference of 5 games). Gronk so far has 3700 more receiving yards and 48 more TD than Bavaro had. Bavaro had two really good seasons (first team All-Pro in both of them) but wasn't much more than average in 7 other seasons. He got hurt and missed a season . . . but that was after 6 years of playing for the Giants (and then moved on). In his time with New York, he averaged 3.2 receptions, 45.4 yards, and 0.34 TD per game. Over a 16 game season, that would project to 51-726-5. I am not sure that he ever was on a HOF trajectory. I mean, yeah I guess if you only count a player's first three seasons. whether he wasn't the same, he wasn't used the same, or some other reason, he certainly stopped being as productive by age 25. But TE is a touch, physical position to play, and it's hard to stay at a Gonzalez / Gates / Gronk / Kelce level for a long time.

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54 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I remember Bavaro mostly because that was back in an era when you could only watch teams in your local market if you lived within 50 miles. I seem to remember things a little differently than you do.

Bavaro and Gronk have played in almost the same number of games (a difference of 5 games). Gronk so far has 3700 more receiving yards and 48 more TD than Bavaro had. Bavaro had two really good seasons (first team All-Pro in both of them) but wasn't much more than average in 7 other seasons. He got hurt and missed a season . . . but that was after 6 years of playing for the Giants (and then moved on). In his time with New York, he averaged 3.2 receptions, 45.4 yards, and 0.34 TD per game. Over a 16 game season, that would project to 51-726-5. I am not sure that he ever was on a HOF trajectory. I mean, yeah I guess if you only count a player's first three seasons. whether he wasn't the same, he wasn't used the same, or some other reason, he certainly stopped being as productive by age 25. But TE is a touch, physical position to play, and it's hard to stay at a Gonzalez / Gates / Gronk / Kelce level for a long time.

Bavaro was a great two way TE before the receiving TE era came.   His numbers don't compare with Gronk but I think Belichick was a huge fan of Bavaro as I read a quote that basically said that BB watched Bavaro go against in practice LT Banks and others on that vaunted NYG D and held his own.  I also seemed to remember that BB claimed that Bavaro held his own vs Reggie White, hence my comparison as Bavaro being the template for Gronk.

Think you need to compare Bavaro to the HOF TEs of the 60s/70s as most were two way and not the Shannon Sharpes or Tony Gs,.   Bavaro was a tough SOB and a key player  on 2 SB winning teams that not only played hurt but also played injured.   Selfless, modest team first player who in his brief career played at a very high level that you won't see all his contributions in a box score.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, elguapo07 said:

Bavaro was a great two way TE before the receiving TE era came.   His numbers don't compare with Gronk but I think Belichick was a huge fan of Bavaro as I read a quote that basically said that BB watched Bavaro go against in practice LT Banks and others on that vaunted NYG D and held his own.  I also seemed to remember that BB claimed that Bavaro held his own vs Reggie White, hence my comparison as Bavaro being the template for Gronk.

Think you need to compare Bavaro to the HOF TEs of the 60s/70s as most were two way and not the Shannon Sharpes or Tony Gs,.   Bavaro was a tough SOB and a key player  on 2 SB winning teams that not only played hurt but also played injured.   Selfless, modest team first player who in his brief career played at a very high level that you won't see all his contributions in a box score.

 

https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-giants/Article/Bill-Belichick-compares-LaGarrette-Blount-run-to-Mark-Bavaro-Giants-catch-50753619/

 

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I think Mark Bavaro was a hall of famer and that he changed the game. I don't know why Todd Christenson and Kellen Winslow didn't- they should have- but Bavaro was so dominant in tough spots that many teams have had a big TE that can make tough catches in clutch situations ever since.

The arguments against him are his longevity and somewhat like Okoye or Priest. I hear that but it doesn't faze me with him.

He would carry four defenders on his back and keep running. You can't quantify that and it's certainly a had to see it type thing but suffice to say he was not going down on some plays and it was an effort you just had to adore as a fan.

The Giants Superbowl teams have faded and are now essentially a great D, Phil Simms' accuracy or Hoss, and maybe maybe someone mentions lil Joe. I'm here to point out no receiver was anything remotely special, just Bavaro- the only target for a Supe winner. How's that possible? Circle back to man amongst boys dominance

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Posted (edited)

I don't know (I didn't mean to mention two TEs just happened) why Ben Coates lost favor as he got old and since. 

There were two TEs in every fantasy draft Sharpe and Coates (then Gates and Tony G others came along but) for years you wanted one of them two.

It's like everyone only remembers Sharpe.

Coates was giant and had some speed. The number of TDs he caught with some tiny DB draped on him ....he was special for what he did.

Sharpe was a converted WR that couldn't block inline then learned and thrived.

For me, the TE position nowadays clearly went Bavaro-Coates and Sharpe- Tony G and Gates...to guys like Kittle and Kelce etc.

Coates isn't a HOFer but geesh no one even remembers the guy and that bugs me.

This also shows a Parcels Belichick influence too BTW. Parcels coached both and it's not a leap to compare Bavaro to Gronk. 

Edited by Bri
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Reggie Roby and Sean Landers belong in the HOF. Idk how you do this, make a punters wing? But there's like 10-20 years of punters since that can't come remotely close to what they do.

Brett Kern for the Titans is a gem and there are a few and all but ....looking back and comparing to peers those two really were elite at their position.

Maybe best is look at their average and think on how they actually did coffin corners regularly. Anyone else that would wreck their average.

The height of Roby's kicks isn't even possible in some indoor stadiums today. Can you imagine the punt team having to wait a half sec for the ball to come down? They really shine if you compare them to the punters ever since

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Devin Hester. His best chance may be this year, his first year eligible, due to a weak class. Most PR tds by far, others were better at KRs. And a TD to start SB 41. 

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10 minutes ago, Bri said:

Reggie Roby and Sean Landers belong in the HOF. Idk how you do this, make a punters wing? But there's like 10-20 years of punters since that can't come remotely close to what they do.

Brett Kern for the Titans is a gem and there are a few and all but ....looking back and comparing to peers those two really were elite at their position.

Maybe best is look at their average and think on how they actually did coffin corners regularly. Anyone else that would wreck their average.

The height of Roby's kicks isn't even possible in some indoor stadiums today. Can you imagine the punt team having to wait a half sec for the ball to come down? They really shine if you compare them to the punters ever since

Again, the issue with punters is the perceived value of a punter is far greater than the actual impact. Last year, Jake Bailey of NE had a net yards per punt average in the range of a yard or a yard and a half of a half dozen kickers. He had 55 punts on the season . . . meaning his punting netted the Patriots a total of 60-75 yards of better field position than several other top punters. What is five yards of field position a game worth? Twice the salary? A pro bowl selection? HOF consideration? Where Bailey excelled was in things that DIDN'T happen. His punts were rarely returned (second fewest return yardage by starting punters). Even so, that still didn't have a huge impact on his overall numbers.

Bailey had more punts downed inside the 20 than any other punter . . . but is that because of him? The putrid NE offense that stalled at midfield and he had to punt more? Great special teams coverage? He had 4 or 5 more kicks inside the 20 than a handful of other guys. Bottom line, the performance difference between a top punter vs. other top punters is marginal and even the value over a replacement punter isn't that big. Plus one missed tackle by a special teamer could ruin a punter's net average for the season if it went for a TD.

Roby and Landeta currently rank tied for 54th in career yards per punt and will continue to drop in the rankings as kickers today average more distance than ever. Even if we eliminate the punters that came after them, neither one of them finished their career in the Top 10 punters in terms of yards per punt. I would disagree . . . I think that there are plenty of punters since them that can do what they did . . . and probably several that did even better.

 

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12 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

Devin Hester. His best chance may be this year, his first year eligible, due to a weak class. Most PR tds by far, others were better at KRs. And a TD to start SB 41. 

Hester had 14 punt return TD in 11 seasons. That's 1.27 TD a year on average. He scored 37 total career TD in 156 games . . . an average of 3.3 per season. Is that really HOF worthy?

Put another way, there are any number of players at other positions that scored twice as many TD as Hester did overall who will likely merit very little HOF conversation. Similarly, Hester ranks 46th in all purpose yards and there are a bunch of players ranked higher than him that won't get much HOF consideration. For example, Brian Mitchell ranks 2nd all time in all purpose yards . . . where are the people campaigning for him to be inducted? Here is one such person . . . LINK

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50 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Hester had 14 punt return TD in 11 seasons. That's 1.27 TD a year on average. He scored 37 total career TD in 156 games . . . an average of 3.3 per season. Is that really HOF worthy?

Put another way, there are any number of players at other positions that scored twice as many TD as Hester did overall who will likely merit very little HOF conversation. Similarly, Hester ranks 46th in all purpose yards and there are a bunch of players ranked higher than him that won't get much HOF consideration. For example, Brian Mitchell ranks 2nd all time in all purpose yards . . . where are the people campaigning for him to be inducted? Here is one such person . . . LINK

The argument for HOF is 4 probowls, 3 all-pros, and the Hester Rule. I don't think he makes it this year, even some Chicago fans doubt his credentials.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beargoggleson.com/2021/04/12/chicago-bears-devin-hester-hall-fame-2/amp/

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2 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Again, the issue with punters is the perceived value of a punter is far greater than the actual impact. Last year, Jake Bailey of NE had a net yards per punt average in the range of a yard or a yard and a half of a half dozen kickers. He had 55 punts on the season . . . meaning his punting netted the Patriots a total of 60-75 yards of better field position than several other top punters. What is five yards of field position a game worth? Twice the salary? A pro bowl selection? HOF consideration? Where Bailey excelled was in things that DIDN'T happen. His punts were rarely returned (second fewest return yardage by starting punters). Even so, that still didn't have a huge impact on his overall numbers.

Bailey had more punts downed inside the 20 than any other punter . . . but is that because of him? The putrid NE offense that stalled at midfield and he had to punt more? Great special teams coverage? He had 4 or 5 more kicks inside the 20 than a handful of other guys. Bottom line, the performance difference between a top punter vs. other top punters is marginal and even the value over a replacement punter isn't that big. Plus one missed tackle by a special teamer could ruin a punter's net average for the season if it went for a TD.

Roby and Landeta currently rank tied for 54th in career yards per punt and will continue to drop in the rankings as kickers today average more distance than ever. Even if we eliminate the punters that came after them, neither one of them finished their career in the Top 10 punters in terms of yards per punt. I would disagree . . . I think that there are plenty of punters since them that can do what they did . . . and probably several that did even better.

 

Reggie Roby may not quite be HOF-worthy, but he always knew what time it was.

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5 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I may be in the minority (maybe, maybe not) in that I am not a huge fan of special teamers having great chances at becoming HOFers. The best special teamers are generally players that were not good enough to be regular players on offense or defense (let alone top producers on offense or defense).

Another issue is that special teamers only play a handful of snaps a game and the huge majority of the time the results of a play are not noteworthy. As a for instance, if a player did a great job downing a kick at the one yard line, how many times might that happen in a year? Three? But that would only save 57 yards over the course of a season.

The same can be said about most kick returners, A couple of guys will break a long return for a TD or two, but without those 2-3 long returns, their return numbers would be similar to any number of returners in the league. Last year, Andre Roberts led the league with a 30 yard kickoff return average. With most kickoffs going into the end zone these days, teams get 25 yards plus where the kicker received the ball for free (since touchbacks start at the 25 yard line). Fielding a kickoff halfway into the end zone and running it to the 25 yard line would net the same field position as just taking the touchback (without risking a fumble). Based on that, is there really a huge difference in field position when maybe a couple of kickoff returns per year amount to something substantial?

A case could also be made that there really isn't a ton of difference between place kickers. As a for instance, in 2020, there were 32 kickers that attempted at least 10 FG attempts. The #10 kicker based on percentage of kicks made converted 92.3% of his attempts. Would having the best kicker last year in terms of accuracy vs. the 10th best kicker have made that much difference?

Let's use recently retired and NFL all-time leading scorer Adam Vinatieri as another example. The man scored 2,673 points from 1996-2019. I mean, what a legend! But if you had the choice of taking Adam V's point total in that time or the summation of the 15th leading scorer from each individual season in that time added together, who would you pick? Vinatieri would win that comparison . . . BARELY. Vinatieri scored 2,673 points in that time. The 15th best kicker in scoring each year added all together would have scored 2,633 points. Sure, we all remember a handful of clutch kicks he made in his early years with NE, but Vinatieri across his career was about average in terms of scoring points for a kicker . . . he just did it for a very long time . . . and 24 years played got him enough longevity to amass a ton of points scored.

You suggested Tasker. I would counter with a current generation S/T player Matthew Slater. Is there much of a difference between them? Tasker played 14 seasons, went to 4 SB's, and was a Pro Bowler 7 times. Slater has played 13 seasons, went to 5 SB's, was a Pro Bowler 9 times and was selected first team All Pro twice and second team All Pro twice. I wouldn't think either one of them have great HOF numbers or chances.

Tasker has a career AV of 7 (yes, that is for his entire career). Slater's career AV is only 3. Taker's HOF Monitor score is 15.38. Slater's is 26.50. Were either one of them all that special in terms of impacting the games they played in? A lot of the geeky advanced stat metrics base rankings and player scores based on value above replacement, and the sad truth is that special teamers really don't impact the game all that much (or very often) and they aren't on the field for many snaps.

There are several positions like that in football. Fullback. Short yardage / goal line back. Receiving back. Blocking tight end. Nickel cornerback. Third down edge rusher. Long snapper. They are all important positions at times, but they aren't really the marquee or banner headline positions that have huge impact on a game's outcome over and over again. It's like a utility infielder, a pinch hitter, middle inning reliever, or a lefthanded relief specialist that only comes in to face a single lefthanded batter. If these players were elite athletes and better at the game, they wouldn't have been in those roles in the first place.

So sure, Tasker was a great special teams player. But that also means he wasn't an elite offensive or defensive player. Statistically, even the best special teamers weren't leaps and bounds above the rest of the league and the better known ones didn't move the needle a ton in terms of their impact on a game week in and week out. If they start inducting special teamers or specialists, that will mean other players that played a ton more snaps won't get in (unless they start elected way more players than they do now).

:goodposting: 

Agree 100%. Several years ago we had some great discussions about this in the Shark Pool. I think it is demonstrable that players who are fully or primarily special teams players deliver significantly less impact than quality starters on offense and defense, and we showed that in those previous discussions. I remember specifically going through this for Tasker and Vinatieri, among others.

There are only three ways any kicker, punter, gunner, or returner should ever make the HOF:

  1. Some kind of pioneering/innovation aspect to his play that changed the game.
  2. He happened to also excel on offense or defense at a HOF level.
  3. The HOF changes the rules to add a mandatory special teams category that is applied at some frequency, similar to how they have created categories for contributors and senior nominees.
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Zach Thomas and it isn't even close.  Those Phins Defensive teams of the Jimmy/Wanny era get no respect and Jason Taylor got in BC Brady and Bill B basically said he should be in (if not he might be waiting as well).  Thomas has better numbers than contemporary LBs in the HOF (Urlacher for instance) and Surtain and Madison if they played on the Patriots likely would be in as well.  I can live without them being in bc winning is a boost, but those defenses were the blueprint for slowing down the pats (which the Giants basically used to beat them in 2 Superbowls)

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Posted (edited)

I am a big Torry Holt fan though he also was one of my biggest early fantasy hits so I might be bias. For 8 straight years he averaged 96 catches and 1400 yards, that's real dominance. 2 of the top 20 receiving yard seasons in NFL history too. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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Posted (edited)

The most obvious answer is Aaron Donald though. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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24 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

The most obvious answer is Aaron Donald though. 

Evidently they mean best HOF eligible not to get in yet. Otherwise Tom Brady by a country mile.

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5 hours ago, SoBeDad said:

Tiki Barber. 3 time probowler, 10,000 rushing, 5,000 receiving. 4.7 ypc. Best last season by a RB not named Sanders.  Is he penalized for retiring too early?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/.amp/state-your-case/state-your-case-why-can-t-tiki-barber-gain-more-interest-from-hall-voters

3-time Pro Bowler?   That’s it?  A dude who only makes the Pro Bowl 3 times doesn’t belong in the HOF.

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50 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

Evidently they mean best HOF eligible not to get in yet. Otherwise Tom Brady by a country mile.

The old Michigan QB?

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12 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Based on PFR’s HOF Monitor Score, here are the highest rated players that are eligible but not in the HOF:

LB Zach Thomas - 112.75
OT Jim Tyrer - 111.88
WR Reggie Wayne - 108.01
LB Patrick Willis - 107.13
WR Torry Holt - 105.27
DT Kevin Williams - 103.28
S Leroy Butler - 97.75
DE Richard Seymour - 97.28

IIRC, those are the only players with scores of 90+ not inducted. 

Thomas should have been in years ago. 

Tyrer was arguably the best OL of the AFL, but he'll never get in. For those who don't know, Tyrer's life ended in a murder/suicide, and that is the entire reason he wasn't a HOF'er 40 years ago. 

LeRoy Butler should have gone in over multiple Safeties of his era. How guys like Atwater and Lynch went in over him is silly. Butler was a better player, and had a much larger influence on the game than either. Hell, you could probably put him in just for inventing the Lambeau Leap.

 

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35 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

3-time Pro Bowler?   That’s it?  A dude who only makes the Pro Bowl 3 times doesn’t belong in the HOF.

Terrell Davis says hi.

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19 minutes ago, foxco said:

Terrell Davis says hi.

In Davis’ three Pro Bowl years, here were his numbers combining regular and post season numbers:

- 55 games played
- 1,535 touches (!)
- 7,391 YFS
- 65 total TD

Yes, he averaged 512 touches a season in that span to go along with 2,464 yards from scrimmage and almost 22 TD per year. So yeah, TD says hi. 

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9 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

In Davis’ three Pro Bowl years, here were his numbers combining regular and post season numbers:

- 55 games played
- 1,535 touches (!)
- 7,391 YFS
- 65 total TD

Yes, he averaged 512 touches a season in that span to go along with 2,464 yards from scrimmage and almost 22 TD per year. So yeah, TD says hi. 

That wasn't the original argument, however. The original statement was a 3 time pro bowler doesn't belong in the HOF, when there are a few (Art Monk is another, and IIRC Lynn Swan?)

I wouldn't put Tiki in personally, I'd probably put someone like Shaun Alexander in over him, but that's just me.

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10 minutes ago, foxco said:

That wasn't the original argument, however. The original statement was a 3 time pro bowler doesn't belong in the HOF, when there are a few (Art Monk is another, and IIRC Lynn Swan?)

I wouldn't put Tiki in personally, I'd probably put someone like Shaun Alexander in over him, but that's just me.

John Riggins only made one Pro Bowl. Kick him out, I guess. 

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I'm not saying he deserves to be in the HOF, because Bert Jones' career was cut short due to injury, but Jones had a stretch in the mid-70s where he was one of the best QBs in the NFL and he won a MVP in 1976.  He lost twice to the mighty Steelers in 75 and 76 and lost in a double OT game to the Raiders in 1977 (Ghost to the post game).  The fifth longest game in NFL history.  1978 was the year the Colts should have gone to the Super Bowl.  Had Jones completed a long pass to Raymond Chester they would have beat the Raiders and stood a good chance at a Super Bowl..  Jones just barely missed him.   Bill Belichick called him the best pure passer he has ever seen and that includes Tom Brady.

Edited by JohnnyU
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Using HOF Monitor Score, here are the Top 10 high scoring players not inducted at their position (includes active or recently retired players). Generally speaking, a score of 100 will usually get a player in.

QB: Tom Brady - 250.94, Aaron Rodgers - 163.72, Drew Brees - 140.50, Philip Rivers - 97.64, Matt Ryan - 97.43, Ben Roethlisberger - 95.38, Ken Anderson - 83.49, Eli Manning - 83.41, Russell Wilson - 74.20, Cam Newton - 68.83

RB: Adrian Peterson - 123.85, Frank Gore - 100.05, LeSean McCoy - 83.14, Roger Craig - 77.00, Marshawn Lynch - 69.09, Cookie Gilchrist - 65.83, Darren Sproles - 64.40, Ricky Watters - 64.32, Shaun Alexander - 63.25, Larry Brown - 61.13

WR: Larry Fitzgerald - 140.92, Reggie Wayne - 108.01, Torry Holt - 105.27, Julio Jones - 100.82, Antonio Brown - 98.70, Steve Smith - 98.08, Andre Johnson - 92.36, Del Shofner - 84.75, Henry Ellard - 83.50, Harold Jackson - 80.74

TE: Antonio Gates - 113.63, Jason Witten - 105.62, Rob Gronkowski - 89.51, Travis Kelce - 73.16, Pete Retzlaff - 71.89, Todd Christensen - 60.24, Riley Odoms - 54.89, Jerry Smith - 50.40, Rich Caster - 49.71, Jimmy Graham - 48.97

G: Jahri Evans - 91.63, Steve Wiesniewski - 81.75, Marshal Yanda - 80.63, Logan Mankins - 75.80, Bob Kuechenberg - 74.03, Zack Martin - 67.78, Nate Netwon - 66.98, Walt Sweeney - 65.40, John Niland - 61.25, Randy Cross - 60.43

C Maurkice Pouncey 73.78, Jeff Saturday - 69.70, Tom Nalen - 67.45, Alex Mack - 64.58, Mark Stepnoski - 64.33. Jay Hilgenberg - 62.43, Len Hauss - 59.35, Bart Oates - 59.28, Kent Hull - 58.55, Olin Kreutz - 56.25

T: Joe Thomas - 115.58, Jim Tyrer - 111.88, Jason Peters - 89.70, Ralph Neely - 86.08, Tony Buselli - 85.83, Joe Jacoby - 77.08, Richmond Webb - 76.80, Dick Schafrath 76.53, Tyron Smith - 73.00, Joe Staley - 68.55

DT: Aaron Donald - 127.63, Kevin Williams - 103.28, Ndamukong Suh - 79.98, Geno Atkins - 75.85, Fletcher Cox - 71.98, Tom Sestak - 68.53, Bryant Young - 65.43, Haloti Ngata - 64.03, La'Roi Glover - 62.83, Ernie Ladd - 61.98

DE: J.J. Watt - 123.88, Julius Peppers - 119.15, Richard Seymour - 97.28, Dwight Freeney - 84.03, L.C. Greenwood - 80.38, Calais Campbell - 77.58, Harvey Martin - 73.75, Neil Smith - 72.90, Cameron Jordan - 69.10, Jared Allen - 68.20

ILB: Luke Kuechly - 118.40, Zach Thomas - 112.75, Patrick Willis - 107.13, Bobby Wagner - 96.68, Randy Gradishar - 73.58, NaVorro Bowman - 68.55, Hardy Nickerson - 65.40, Karl Mecklenburg - 62.15, Lee Roy Jordan - 61.73, Sam Mills - 58.83

OLB: DeMarcus Ware - 95.33, Terrell Suggs 94.23, Von Miller - 89.65, Larry Grantham - 85.80, Khalil Mack - 83.35, James Harrison - 74.88, Pat Swilling - 74.03, Chuck Howley - 72.45, Joe Fortunato - 70.75, Maxie Baughan - 65.33

DB: Darrelle Revis 110.45, LeRoy Butler - 97.75, Dave Grayson - 85.55, Ronde Barber - 85.53, Lester Hayes - 85.08, Bobby Boyd - 81.65, Eddie Meador - 81.50, Richard Sherman - 79.38, Patrick Peterson - 78.95, Butch Byrd - 78.13

PK: Adam Vinatieri - 92.70, Gary Anderson - 65.90, Nick Lowery - 57.63, Jim Bakken - 50.25, Justin Tucker - 45.90, Garo Yepremian - 45.38, Stephen Gostkowski - 44.13, Mark Mosely - 42.14, Jason Hanson - 38.35, David Akers - 35.38

P: Shane Lechler - 63.68, Sean Landeta - 47.23, Don Chandler - 37.45, Johnny Hekker - 30.08, Darren Bennett - 23.95, Andy Lee - 23.50, Reggie Roby - 23.35, Jerrel Wilson - 22.73, Paul Maguire - 22.03, Craig Hentrich - 20.00, Dave Jennings - 20.00

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