Obama to propose two free years of community college (1 Viewer)

[IvanKaramazov]

And I'll echo Gunz, investing in education is bad?

Investing in education is great. First of all, there's a clear financial payoff to attending college -- it's literally an investment in that sense. It's also a fantastic consumption good in the sense that you get to enjoy what is, in essence, a four year vacation while learning about the world around you. It's a great experience all around.

So you and Gunz are right that investing in education is a good idea. The issue is who should be doing the spending. Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Too bad it doesn't include Vo Tech programs too.

Are you sure it doesn't?

To be eligible, community colleges would have to offer academic programs that fully transfer credits to local public four-year colleges and universities or training programs with high graduation rates that lead to in-demand degrees and certificates. Community colleges must also adopt “promising and evidence-based institutional reforms” to improve student outcomes.

 

[Dentist]

We have this program is Kansas City already that people can get "free community college"

I see a lot of kids go this route as opposed to a proper university... I see only the tiniest fraction of those kids actually do what the program intends... for you to goto those two years and then transfer to complete your degree at a regular program.

Most of the time it's a total waste for 1-4 semesters for those kids... they'd be better off at a trade school or something or simply just finding a job and getting some real world experience.

All you are going to do is line the pocket of a bunch of for profit community colleges with ####ty programs... regular universities won't be affected because smart parents know a scam when they see one.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

:

:

So you and Gunz are right that investing in education is a good idea. The issue is who should be doing the spending. Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

The auto mechanic, soldier, and construction worker don't benefit from living in a society with a higher standard of living both directly and indirectly?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As a quick google search of Germany's system noted, many countries view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit.

Yes, and those countries are wrong. The person who benefited the most from my education, by multiple orders of magnitude, was me personally. There may be some spillover benefits to my neighbors from me having attended college, but they're trivial and don't come anywhere close to justifying having "society" pick up a large chunk of the bill.

As far as welfare programs go, I'm relatively sympathetic to programs that make college more affordable for poor families. If Obama was proposing a similar program that included tech schools and that was means-tested, I'd be more supportive.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

:

:

So you and Gunz are right that investing in education is a good idea. The issue is who should be doing the spending. Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

The auto mechanic, soldier, and construction worker don't benefit from living in a society with a higher standard of living both directly and indirectly?

Pointing to spillover benefits without taking their magnitude into account isn't very helpful.

Say I'm considering a project that won't do me any good, but will generate $100 worth of benefits to the community. In a case like that, it makes sense for the government to heavily subsidize this project. Otherwise nobody would do it and society would lose out on the potential benefits.

By way of contrast, suppose instead that I'm considering a project that will generate $100 worth of benefits to me personally, and $1 worth of benefits to the community. There's still a good case for subsidizing this project a little bit, but it would be silly to suggest that the government should pick up most or even a significant part of the tab.

Going to college or a tech school is much more like the second case than the first. Nobody has ever said "I'm not going to blow four years going to college -- I'd rather just free ride off those who do." People go to college because they know that they stand to reap very large personal gains from doing so. To the extent that my education benefited others, that's more than already covered by federal and state financial aid programs and direct state support for public universities. What Obama is proposing goes light-years beyond any possible appeal to positive externalities and is just a transfer to the middle class.

 

[Knocks]

Heard TN Sen Alexander this am on radio. What I heard (quick version) is that of the ~3800 it costs per year all but around 300 is already available through Fed funded Pell Grants. The remainder is picked up by the state I guess, he did not elaborate on that. Our Gov. Haslam has made a great strategy move by calling it FREE when in essence it is has been very close to that already.

??? Dont quote me.

 

[lod01]

This will also add at least one or 2 US Currency printing press operators to the payroll, lowering unemployment even further. This Obama guy is killing it!

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

Some folks around here like to point out that rich people pay the majority of taxes.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

Some folks around here like to point out that rich people pay the majority of taxes.

That's fine too. I can't come up with a good reason why Bill Gates should have to pay my kids' college education either.

Like I said above, I would be okay with something like this program if there was an income limit, so that it was helping people who really needed help paying for college. But my guess is that Obama is counting on the "middle-class entitlement" aspect of this as a key part of its political appeal.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

:

:

So you and Gunz are right that investing in education is a good idea. The issue is who should be doing the spending. Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

The auto mechanic, soldier, and construction worker don't benefit from living in a society with a higher standard of living both directly and indirectly?

Pointing to spillover benefits without taking their magnitude into account isn't very helpful.

Say I'm considering a project that won't do me any good, but will generate $100 worth of benefits to the community. In a case like that, it makes sense for the government to heavily subsidize this project. Otherwise nobody would do it and society would lose out on the potential benefits.

By way of contrast, suppose instead that I'm considering a project that will generate $100 worth of benefits to me personally, and $1 worth of benefits to the community. There's still a good case for subsidizing this project a little bit, but it would be silly to suggest that the government should pick up most or even a significant part of the tab.

Going to college or a tech school is much more like the second case than the first. Nobody has ever said "I'm not going to blow four years going to college -- I'd rather just free ride off those who do." People go to college because they know that they stand to reap very large personal gains from doing so. To the extent that my education benefited others, that's more than already covered by federal and state financial aid programs and direct state support for public universities. What Obama is proposing goes light-years beyond any possible appeal to positive externalities and is just a transfer to the middle class.

Well clearly a conservative in academia is of little to no value to society at large, but maybe we should look beyond you as the example. But to keep things simple as I disappear from this thread for work, would the multiplier of such a program be below 1? (Such as the .6 or so for paying that soldier that conservative like to fraudulently use as a proxy for all spending.)

 

[NutterButter]

C+ average seems like such a week bar to set. Unless that kid has some extenuating circumstances like they need to work full-time to pay for room and board b/c they can't live at home which is highly unlikely or they have a kid they need to support which is also highly unlikely, you should be able to pull a B average at a CC. If not, college probably isn't for you.

 

[dozer]

This new free college thing is an outrage!

 

[NutterButter]

Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

Some folks around here like to point out that rich people pay the majority of taxes.

That's fine too. I can't come up with a good reason why Bill Gates should have to pay my kids' college education either.

Like I said above, I would be okay with something like this program if there was an income limit, so that it was helping people who really needed help paying for college. But my guess is that Obama is counting on the "middle-class entitlement" aspect of this as a key part of its political appeal.

Yeah, an income limit should definitely be in the mix. Why the hell are tax dollars going to pay for CC for people that can afford it? Sorry if you can't go on that cruise that you wanted to, but your kids need to go to CC.

 

[Tom Hagen]

If we assume free tuition would result in a large increase in enrollment, would community colleges even be able to handle this without reducing quality of education?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Well clearly a conservative in academia is of little to no value to society at large, but maybe we should look beyond you as the example. But to keep things simple as I disappear from this thread for work, would the multiplier of such a program be below 1? (Such as the .6 or so for paying that soldier that conservative like to fraudulently use as a proxy for all spending.)

"Multiplier" analysis only makes sense if you're advocating this program as short-run stimulus spending. I can't imagine that any of its supporters would make that argument. These sorts of proposals are nearly always put forward for their long-run benefits, not for short-run issues.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

Some folks around here like to point out that rich people pay the majority of taxes.

That's fine too. I can't come up with a good reason why Bill Gates should have to pay my kids' college education either.

Like I said above, I would be okay with something like this program if there was an income limit, so that it was helping people who really needed help paying for college. But my guess is that Obama is counting on the "middle-class entitlement" aspect of this as a key part of its political appeal.

Your original statement seemed to suggest that this policy was redistributing wealth up the economic ladder. If we use Bill Gates's money to pay for it, we are redistributing down. That makes a big difference for me. Maybe not so much for you.

 

[James Daulton]

As a quick google search of Germany's system noted, many countries view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit.

Yes, and those countries are wrong. The person who benefited the most from my education, by multiple orders of magnitude, was me personally. There may be some spillover benefits to my neighbors from me having attended college, but they're trivial and don't come anywhere close to justifying having "society" pick up a large chunk of the bill.

As far as welfare programs go, I'm relatively sympathetic to programs that make college more affordable for poor families. If Obama was proposing a similar program that included tech schools and that was means-tested, I'd be more supportive.

A more highly educated society doesn't benefit the society as a whole? Seriously? Just because you may benefit personally the most doesn't mean that society is not helped out immensely via higher taxes associated with higher income, lower crime, legacy of eduction, etc.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As a quick google search of Germany's system noted, many countries view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit.

Yes, and those countries are wrong. The person who benefited the most from my education, by multiple orders of magnitude, was me personally. There may be some spillover benefits to my neighbors from me having attended college, but they're trivial and don't come anywhere close to justifying having "society" pick up a large chunk of the bill.

As far as welfare programs go, I'm relatively sympathetic to programs that make college more affordable for poor families. If Obama was proposing a similar program that included tech schools and that was means-tested, I'd be more supportive.

A more highly educated society doesn't benefit the society as a whole? Seriously? Just because you may benefit personally the most doesn't mean that society is not helped out immensely via higher taxes associated with higher income, lower crime, legacy of eduction, etc.

My kids getting an education benefits society to a very, very small degree. The tax subsidies accruing to their 529 accounts already more than covers that stuff.

Try thinking about it this way. When you went to college, did you go because you thought it was your social duty to go to college? Or did you go because it was in your personal best interest? If your answer is the latter, then you and I agree that college is mostly a private good.

 

[Rich Conway]

Try as I might, I can't come up with any convincing arguments for why an auto mechanic, soldier, or construction worker should have to pay for my kids to attend college.

Some folks around here like to point out that rich people pay the majority of taxes.

That's fine too. I can't come up with a good reason why Bill Gates should have to pay my kids' college education either.

Like I said above, I would be okay with something like this program if there was an income limit, so that it was helping people who really needed help paying for college. But my guess is that Obama is counting on the "middle-class entitlement" aspect of this as a key part of its political appeal.

Your original statement seemed to suggest that this policy was redistributing wealth up the economic ladder. If we use Bill Gates's money to pay for it, we are redistributing down. That makes a big difference for me. Maybe not so much for you.

If your goal is simply to redistribute wealth, wouldn't a more effective policy be to simply redistribute wealth directly?

 

[Gary Coal Man]

C+ average seems like such a week bar to set. Unless that kid has some extenuating circumstances like they need to work full-time to pay for room and board b/c they can't live at home which is highly unlikely or they have a kid they need to support which is also highly unlikely, you should be able to pull a B average at a CC. If not, college probably isn't for you.

I partied way too much my freshmen year of college and essentially flunked out. So I did a year at a state CC so those classes credits could transfer to my state university which I planned to apply to. For some reason, once at the state university my past credits counted toward my graduation but my past GPA didn't factor into my graduating GPA which just considered my grades at the state university. Anyway, I worked forty hours per week during my community college year while taking two semesters of full course loads in the evenings. With that schedule I got back to back 4.0s.... after getting a .4 my second semester freshmen year. My graduating GPA was far closer to my CC GPA than my freshmen year GPA, but damn that year was fun.

So, yeah, community college is cake.

 

[otello]

Wouldn't it be better to use that money in the current public school system?

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

I agree with the support for trade schools in this thread, but also want to point out that some community colleges offer trade certifications. The CC closest to my house has programs for aspiring techs in electrical work, HVAC, welding & metal fabrication, automotive, plus a slew of IT certifications and a culinary arts program. Maybe my local CC is an outlier, but my local experience is one where CC vs trades isn't necessarily an either/or proposition.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Your original statement seemed to suggest that this policy was redistributing wealth up the economic ladder. If we use Bill Gates's money to pay for it, we are redistributing down. That makes a big difference for me. Maybe not so much for you.

If your goal is simply to redistribute wealth, wouldn't a more effective policy be to simply redistribute wealth directly?

That might be a better policy, but it's politically impossible to do that. The redistribution policies that become law are ones where we pay for stuff that poorer people need, like housing or healthcare, rather than giving them money directly.

ETA: I guess the EITC is a direct transfer that became law, but that only helps the working poor. And I'm not sure whether that would pass Congress today, I'm doubtful.

 

[NutterButter]

C+ average seems like such a week bar to set. Unless that kid has some extenuating circumstances like they need to work full-time to pay for room and board b/c they can't live at home which is highly unlikely or they have a kid they need to support which is also highly unlikely, you should be able to pull a B average at a CC. If not, college probably isn't for you.

I partied way too much my freshmen year of college and essentially flunked out. So I did a year at a state CC so those classes credits could transfer to my state university which I planned to apply to. For some reason, once at the state university my past credits counted toward my graduation but my past GPA didn't factor into my graduating GPA which just considered my grades at the state university. Anyway, I worked forty hours per week during my community college year while taking two semesters of full course loads in the evenings. With that schedule I got back to back 4.0s.... after getting a .4 my second semester freshmen year.My graduating GPA was far closer to my CC GPA than my freshmen year GPA, but damn that year was fun.

So, yeah, community college is cake.

Yeah, my wife got college credits while in high school by taking CC classes; her mom was psycho like that. She told me how ridiculously easy it was. Now my wife is definitely above average intellectually so I'm not dismissing the fact that a lot of kids will find CC more challenging, but a C+ I think puts your intellect somewhere close to mentally disabled if you're really trying.

 

[NutterButter]

I agree with the support for trade schools in this thread, but also want to point out that some community colleges offer trade certifications. The CC closest to my house has programs for aspiring techs in electrical work, HVAC, welding & metal fabrication, automotive, plus a slew of IT certifications and a culinary arts program. Maybe my local CC is an outlier, but my local experience is one where CC vs trades isn't necessarily an either/or proposition.

That's fine, but I see no reason why you'd exclude trade schools. You do that, make it means tested and raise the academic requirement and I'm all for this. I'd much rather be paying my tax dollars to educating kids rather than imprisoning them.

 

[shader]

Too bad it doesn't include Vo Tech programs too.

This is the main problem I have with it. If it takes MORE kids away from vo tech schools, it's bad. Already a shortage of plumbers/hvac, etc.

In 20 years it's gonna cost a fortune to get plumbing work done.

 

[Road Warriors]

maybe focus more on what they're already not learning in high school

Wouldn't a more prudent solution be to start teaching these things in HS?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I agree with the support for trade schools in this thread, but also want to point out that some community colleges offer trade certifications. The CC closest to my house has programs for aspiring techs in electrical work, HVAC, welding & metal fabrication, automotive, plus a slew of IT certifications and a culinary arts program. Maybe my local CC is an outlier, but my local experience is one where CC vs trades isn't necessarily an either/or proposition.

That's fine, but I see no reason why you'd exclude trade schools. You do that, make it means tested and raise the academic requirement and I'm all for this. I'd much rather be paying my tax dollars to educating kids rather than imprisoning them.

Why do we think it doesn't include trade schools? Do trade schools confer degrees?

 

[Mario Kart]

Wouldn't it be better to use that money in the current public school system?

I could see this working out much better. More money to public schools to lower class size would be a great benefit to our school systems.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

I agree with the support for trade schools in this thread, but also want to point out that some community colleges offer trade certifications. The CC closest to my house has programs for aspiring techs in electrical work, HVAC, welding & metal fabrication, automotive, plus a slew of IT certifications and a culinary arts program. Maybe my local CC is an outlier, but my local experience is one where CC vs trades isn't necessarily an either/or proposition.

That's fine, but I see no reason why you'd exclude trade schools. You do that, make it means tested and raise the academic requirement and I'm all for this. I'd much rather be paying my tax dollars to educating kids rather than imprisoning them.

Do you think the announcement Obama made on Facebook last night means the program he program he proposed will always exclude all trade schools forever and ever? I don't.

 

[NutterButter]

If it includes trade school, then great. I thought the consensus was that it was just for CCs. So means testing the aid and raising the bar that must be achieved to qualify are the only other 2 gripes I have.

 

[the moops]

Wouldn't it be better to use that money in the current public school system?

Probably, although the conservative meme for years has been there is already too much money in the public school system and giving the unions more does nothing to bolster student achievement.

 

[sublimeone]

I'd rather he give us all free gas

 

[Clifford]

TN pays for most of this with lottery money. National lottery?

Georgia has a better program which actually helps folks who want to attend 4-year colleges in addition to community colleges.

I don't see why we are only trying to help those that want to attend community college. The cost of higher-education period is absolutely crippling.

 

[NutterButter]

Wouldn't it be better to use that money in the current public school system?

Probably, although the conservative meme for years has been there is already too much money in the public school system and giving the unions more does nothing to bolster student achievement.

Considering that we are way down there in terms of results and way up there in terms of dollars spent per student, I think there's some merit to that.

 

[sublimeone]

It's insane to propose new super expensive social programs when debt to GDP is north of 100%

Theres no chance this happens so this is probably just an attempt to rally the youth for 2016

 

[NutterButter]

TN pays for most of this with lottery money. National lottery?

Georgia has a better program which actually helps folks who want to attend 4-year colleges in addition to community colleges.

I don't see why we are only trying to help those that want to attend community college. The cost of higher-education period is absolutely crippling.

Its a start. Considering that this program doesn't stand a chance of getting passed, I don't think adding another 2 years at a more expensive school is going to help.

 

[James Daulton]

As a quick google search of Germany's system noted, many countries view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit.

Yes, and those countries are wrong. The person who benefited the most from my education, by multiple orders of magnitude, was me personally. There may be some spillover benefits to my neighbors from me having attended college, but they're trivial and don't come anywhere close to justifying having "society" pick up a large chunk of the bill.

As far as welfare programs go, I'm relatively sympathetic to programs that make college more affordable for poor families. If Obama was proposing a similar program that included tech schools and that was means-tested, I'd be more supportive.

A more highly educated society doesn't benefit the society as a whole? Seriously? Just because you may benefit personally the most doesn't mean that society is not helped out immensely via higher taxes associated with higher income, lower crime, legacy of eduction, etc.

My kids getting an education benefits society to a very, very small degree. The tax subsidies accruing to their 529 accounts already more than covers that stuff.

Try thinking about it this way. When you went to college, did you go because you thought it was your social duty to go to college? Or did you go because it was in your personal best interest? If your answer is the latter, then you and I agree that college is mostly a private good.

Stop thinking about your situation. Think about the folks who would be hourly retail employees or some other barely above poverty job. A college education could lift not only them, but also their future kids and grandkids out of poverty. This greatly benefits society as a whole.

 

[NutterButter]

I'd rather he give us all free gas

Gas is almost free as it is. Hasn't he already done enough with that?

 

[humpback]

If you plan on going to your state university, you might as well just do your first two years at CC in all classes with credits that will transfer and then finish up at the big school for the last two years. Way, way less fun, but you save yourself from huge loan debt.

The difference between CC and in-state tuition at most state schools isn't huge. Probably worth it for way, way more fun.

University my daughter started at was ~$19000/yr since they required freshmen to live on campus which meant room and board. Our local CC costs me about $4k/yr.

Yeah, I didn't realize the spread was much larger in some areas. I'm only comparing the tuition since this plan doesn't cover all of the other fees and expenses, but obviously if your state school requires you to live on campus that should be factored in too (for those who wouldn't need room and board at CC but would at the state school).

The main point was that majority of the massive amount of student loan debt isn't due to state students not going to CC for their 1st two years.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Can I take some free woodworking classes? Thanks Socialism!

 

[worrierking]

My understanding is that most people in the lower end of the economic spectrum get large subsidies already at CCs, so as Ivan said, a large proportion of the spending on the program would go to middle class students who currently don't qualify for as much aid as poorer students.

I think CCs are great. I also went to a four-year school right out of high school and was in a bad situation. I had a drug dealer for a roommate and was generally not mature enough to be on my own. I went back home and commuted to the local CC and got my associates degree while working nearly full-time. I saved my parents a ton of money and got myself financially situated to where I could go back to a four-year school with a decent car and enough cash to pay for housing, beer and pizza. I obviously turned out great!

If you would like to argue that this is a good idea, I can probably be persuaded to do something that will encourage people to utilize Community Colleges and Trade Schools. But the spending has to come from somewhere else, it can't just go on top of all the ridiculousness we currently are adding to the debt.

I suspect this is just a typical left-wing "Free" giveaway as proposed, but I could be wrong at least in part, depending on the details.

 

[Insein]

Yeah, investing in education is such a bad idea.

Why do we not have a facepalm smiley yet?

 

[humpback]

I agree with the support for trade schools in this thread, but also want to point out that some community colleges offer trade certifications. The CC closest to my house has programs for aspiring techs in electrical work, HVAC, welding & metal fabrication, automotive, plus a slew of IT certifications and a culinary arts program. Maybe my local CC is an outlier, but my local experience is one where CC vs trades isn't necessarily an either/or proposition.

That's fine, but I see no reason why you'd exclude trade schools. You do that, make it means tested and raise the academic requirement and I'm all for this. I'd much rather be paying my tax dollars to educating kids rather than imprisoning them.

Why do we think it doesn't include trade schools? Do trade schools confer degrees?

Wouldn't it make sense to say "Community college and trade schools" if it included them? I suppose it's possible that this "plan" would include them, but if so he's done a crappy job communicating that so far.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

This just seems like a scheme to have more federal control over community colleges.

Which might not be a terrible thing on one hand considering how many students lose so many credits when transferring to a four year.

But on the other hand the cycle of A) Spend money, B) Demand better service, C) "Better" service leads to higher spending, D) Collect the grift seems to be enacted once again.

Are students kept out of CC's because of cost?

 

[cstu]

Government involvement in the financial aspects of college is one of the main reasons it's as expensive as it is already. We really don't need more.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Can I take some free woodworking classes? Thanks Socialism!

All jokes aside, wouldn't there be more of this?

The thinking of "Hey, if it's free, why wouldn't I go?" would lead to a lot of people showing up that don't belong...wouldn't it?

 

[cstu]

President Barack Obama will need the approval of Congress to realize his proposal for making two years of community college free for students.

Wow [claps] nice concession.

Bad idea.

Not happening.

Next.

How is helping people go to school a bad idea? More education -> higher income -> higher taxes.

Not to mention the added benefit of less crime and money going to the criminal justice system.

 

[cstu]

One of the reasons why it is impacted is because we don't actually treat institutions of higher learning as a place for higher learning. They are simply extensions of the k-12 babysitting factories for thousands of dumbasses who screwed around in high school, got crappy grades and now want to delay entering the real world.

If Obama is going to do something like this...how about you at least reward the students who actually put the work in and only allow students who graduated high school with a 3.0 GPA or better to attend for free.

How much time do you spend at community colleges?