Obama to propose two free years of community college (1 Viewer)

[Andy Dufresne]

How is helping people go to school a bad idea? More education -> higher income -> higher taxes.

Not to mention the added benefit of less crime and money going to the criminal justice system.

I think you're oversimplifying a bit.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

The US public education system is usually regarded as one of the most important reasons we developed into the economic super power that we have. We were far ahead of the developed world for most of the 20th century, and a K-12 education was sufficient to support a decent middle-class living for most of 20th century as well. Neither of those is the case today.

There's more wrong with our educational models than just the somewhat arbitrary cut-off at grade 12, and on balance I'm not sure adding an additional 2 years of fully funded tuition buys much. I think we'd be better served to address the fact that the real marginal cost of obtaining an education should be approaching zero, yet actual costs continue to go up.

 

[the moops]

Can I take some free woodworking classes? Thanks Socialism!

All jokes aside, wouldn't there be more of this?The thinking of "Hey, if it's free, why wouldn't I go?" would lead to a lot of people showing up that don't belong...wouldn't it?

Well in order for it to be free they have to enrolled at least half time, maintain a certain GPA, and be making progress towards a degree. Sure, there would be slackers that go just cause they could. But dismissing something based on worst case scenario is a bad idea.

 

[Jack White]

I suppose it's appropriate that in our dumbed-down compulsory government schooling society, many of you can't see why this is just another horrible government program.

 

[NCCommish]

Too bad it doesn't include Vo Tech programs too.

This is basically just another handout to the middle class. Granted, it makes more policy sense than the home mortgage interest deduction, for example, but a ton of households who could have afforded college anyway will be getting a windfall with this.

It should definitely include accredited vocational training.

 

[kentric]

Politico

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

The president’s proposal would make two years of community college free for students of any age with a C+ average who attend school at least half-time and who are making “steady progress” toward their degree.

Thoughts?

I find this qualification as very disturbing. Why set the bar so low. It doesn't exactly instill any form of requirement of dedication to the proposal.

 

[NCCommish]

Politico

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

The president’s proposal would make two years of community college free for students of any age with a C+ average who attend school at least half-time and who are making “steady progress” toward their degree.

Thoughts?

I find this qualification as very disturbing. Why set the bar so low. It doesn't exactly instill any form of requirement of dedication to the proposal.

Probably meant to make it easier to work and go to school as so many people try to do.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Politico

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

The president’s proposal would make two years of community college free for students of any age with a C+ average who attend school at least half-time and who are making “steady progress” toward their degree.

Thoughts?

I find this qualification as very disturbing. Why set the bar so low. It doesn't exactly instill any form of requirement of dedication to the proposal.

Lots of people at community college are older students that have to work for a living. Limiting this to only fulltime students seems to eliminate the helpfulness for people who might need it the most.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Can I take some free woodworking classes? Thanks Socialism!

All jokes aside, wouldn't there be more of this?The thinking of "Hey, if it's free, why wouldn't I go?" would lead to a lot of people showing up that don't belong...wouldn't it?

Well in order for it to be free they have to enrolled at least half time, maintain a certain GPA, and be making progress towards a degree.Sure, there would be slackers that go just cause they could. But dismissing something based on worst case scenario is a bad idea.

I wasn't dismissing it.

I'm just contemplating how much the increased demand would drive up cost and water down service.

 

[kentric]

Politico

Obama to propose two free years of community college for students

The president’s proposal would make two years of community college free for students of any age with a C+ average who attend school at least half-time and who are making “steady progress” toward their degree.

Thoughts?

I find this qualification as very disturbing. Why set the bar so low. It doesn't exactly instill any form of requirement of dedication to the proposal.

Lots of people at community college are older students that have to work for a living. Limiting this to only fulltime students seems to eliminate the helpfulness for people who might need it the most.

Hmmm... I read it as must attend at least 1/2 the classes. If it was referring to part-time students, then I don't have an issue with it.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

One of the reasons why it is impacted is because we don't actually treat institutions of higher learning as a place for higher learning. They are simply extensions of the k-12 babysitting factories for thousands of dumbasses who screwed around in high school, got crappy grades and now want to delay entering the real world.

If Obama is going to do something like this...how about you at least reward the students who actually put the work in and only allow students who graduated high school with a 3.0 GPA or better to attend for free.

How much time do you spend at community colleges?

That post that you quoted isn't mine -- it's somebody else.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I suppose it's appropriate that in our dumbed-down compulsory government schooling society, many of you can't see why this is just another horrible government program.

Yeah, investing in our people is a bad idea.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I suppose it's appropriate that in our dumbed-down compulsory government schooling society, many of you can't see why this is just another horrible government program.

Yeah, investing in our people is a bad idea.

But is any and all investing good investing?

 

[TheAristocrat]

Obama wants more Eminences. Cute.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I suppose it's appropriate that in our dumbed-down compulsory government schooling society, many of you can't see why this is just another horrible government program.

Yeah, investing in our people is a bad idea.

But is any and all investing good investing?

Additional investment in education is almost always a good investment. Obviously there are examples at the margins some will point to, but overall, in general, we would be better off as a society redistributing far more resources than we currently are to education.

 

[Parrothead]

well, at least the Wal Mart employees of the future will be slightly better educated

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I suppose it's appropriate that in our dumbed-down compulsory government schooling society, many of you can't see why this is just another horrible government program.

Yeah, investing in our people is a bad idea.

But is any and all investing good investing?

Additional investment in education is almost always a good investment. Obviously there are examples at the margins some will point to, but overall, in general, we would be better off as a society redistributing far more resources than we currently are to education.

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As a quick google search of Germany's system noted, many countries view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit.

Yes, and those countries are wrong. The person who benefited the most from my education, by multiple orders of magnitude, was me personally. There may be some spillover benefits to my neighbors from me having attended college, but they're trivial and don't come anywhere close to justifying having "society" pick up a large chunk of the bill.

As far as welfare programs go, I'm relatively sympathetic to programs that make college more affordable for poor families. If Obama was proposing a similar program that included tech schools and that was means-tested, I'd be more supportive.

A more highly educated society doesn't benefit the society as a whole? Seriously? Just because you may benefit personally the most doesn't mean that society is not helped out immensely via higher taxes associated with higher income, lower crime, legacy of eduction, etc.

My kids getting an education benefits society to a very, very small degree. The tax subsidies accruing to their 529 accounts already more than covers that stuff.

Try thinking about it this way. When you went to college, did you go because you thought it was your social duty to go to college? Or did you go because it was in your personal best interest? If your answer is the latter, then you and I agree that college is mostly a private good.

Stop thinking about your situation. Think about the folks who would be hourly retail employees or some other barely above poverty job. A college education could lift not only them, but also their future kids and grandkids out of poverty. This greatly benefits society as a whole.

I've said several times that I would be more comfortable with this if it were means-tested. So an example that involves lifting somebody out of poverty doesn't really address any of my concerns about this being another middle-class entitlement that we don't need.

Also, the person who benefits the most from being lifted out of poverty is the person being lifted out of poverty. Not you, not me, and not "society."

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I can be persuaded to be ok with this but I have conditions.

 

[Sand]

Heard TN Sen Alexander this am on radio. What I heard (quick version) is that of the ~3800 it costs per year all but around 300 is already available through Fed funded Pell Grants. The remainder is picked up by the state I guess, he did not elaborate on that. Our Gov. Haslam has made a great strategy move by calling it FREE when in essence it is has been very close to that already.

??? Dont quote me.

Logic and truth redacted as it has no place in this discussion. All discussion should be centered on how awesome presidential pandering with free stuff is.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I suppose it's appropriate that in our dumbed-down compulsory government schooling society, many of you can't see why this is just another horrible government program.

Yeah, investing in our people is a bad idea.

But is any and all investing good investing?

Additional investment in education is almost always a good investment. Obviously there are examples at the margins some will point to, but overall, in general, we would be better off as a society redistributing far more resources than we currently are to education.

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

I suppose it's appropriate that in our dumbed-down compulsory government schooling society, many of you can't see why this is just another horrible government program.

Yeah, investing in our people is a bad idea.

But is any and all investing good investing?

Questionable investment

 

[tommyGunZ]

Heard TN Sen Alexander this am on radio. What I heard (quick version) is that of the ~3800 it costs per year all but around 300 is already available through Fed funded Pell Grants. The remainder is picked up by the state I guess, he did not elaborate on that. Our Gov. Haslam has made a great strategy move by calling it FREE when in essence it is has been very close to that already.

??? Dont quote me.

Logic and truth redacted as it has no place in this discussion. All discussion should be centered on how awesome presidential pandering with free stuff is.

Tax cuts count as "free stuff" as well, right?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

Why not triple or quadruple it?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I suppose it's appropriate that in our dumbed-down compulsory government schooling society, many of you can't see why this is just another horrible government program.

Yeah, investing in our people is a bad idea.

But is any and all investing good investing?

Additional investment in education is almost always a good investment. Obviously there are examples at the margins some will point to, but overall, in general, we would be better off as a society redistributing far more resources than we currently are to education.

If we're talking about students who were genuinely on the fence about attending a community college or not, those students pretty much epitomize the "marginal" higher ed student. I don't think it's obvious at all that college is automatically a good investment for those folks. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it certainly isn't obviously good.

ETA: Of course, 99% of the people who would benefit from this program are people who were always going to college anyway. For those folks, there's no additional "investment" taking place, and the social value of this program is literally zero. It's just a straight-up transfer payment in those cases.

 

[tommyGunZ]

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

Why not triple or quadruple it?

Maybe you're right. Like I said, I'd "at least" double it.

 

[Parrothead]

how valuable is a 2 year degree from a free CC?? I know I'm not hiring them over a candidate from 4 year traditional university degree..

 

[Andy Dufresne]

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

Why not triple or quadruple it?

Maybe you're right. Like I said, I'd "at least" double it.

Would you say that you could ever get to a point where spending more money doesn't improve the outcome?

I mean, if we spent Eleventy Brazillion dollars would we get more benefit than spending Eleventy Brazillion minus one?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

Why not triple or quadruple it?

Maybe you're right. Like I said, I'd "at least" double it.

What would you be willing to trade for $2 trillion a year in education spending? I'm a deal maker.

 

[Jayrod]

As a quick google search of Germany's system noted, many countries view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit.

At least as of the mid 90's, Germany also conducts a test around 6th grade to determine a child's aptitude and they are steered into either vocational schools or Gymnasium (which is their high school, but its more like a college prep school).

 

[Rich Conway]

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

You might want to ask for more than just a day if you're planning to waste time on things like crown selection and fittings.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

You might want to ask for more than just a day if you're planning to waste time on things like crown selection and fittings.

Just an FYI.... I already have the crown and robe. I'm ready to go as soon as the people realize the errors of their ways and call me to service.

 

[Bucky86]

How many people here that are against spending more on education, are also against the government spending money on food stamps/ other assistance for the poor?

 

[Sand]

Heard TN Sen Alexander this am on radio. What I heard (quick version) is that of the ~3800 it costs per year all but around 300 is already available through Fed funded Pell Grants. The remainder is picked up by the state I guess, he did not elaborate on that. Our Gov. Haslam has made a great strategy move by calling it FREE when in essence it is has been very close to that already.

??? Dont quote me.

Logic and truth redacted as it has no place in this discussion. All discussion should be centered on how awesome presidential pandering with free stuff is.

Tax cuts count as "free stuff" as well, right?

Of course. I guess any time I use not in the service of maintaining the government machine is "free stuff". We should all be grateful that the government doesn't claim 100%, as is evidently its right, yes?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

How many people here that are against spending more on education, are also against the government spending money on food stamps/ other assistance for the poor?

Poor question. I'm for all of it. Just not the way we do it.

 

[Jayrod]

As a quick google search of Germany's system noted, many countries view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit.

At least as of the mid 90's, Germany also conducts a test around 6th grade to determine a child's aptitude and they are steered into either vocational schools or Gymnasium (which is their high school, but its more like a college prep school).

After some wiki research, it appears that basically the path is set by the performance. Different levels of school are achieved by higher performers from grade 5 on. There are like 5 different types of high schools and only Gymnasium grads take the Arbitur exam with qualifies one for University. Most of the rest of the schools steer to vocational type programs and apprenticeships.

 

[Bucky86]

As a quick google search of Germany's system noted, many countries view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit.

At least as of the mid 90's, Germany also conducts a test around 6th grade to determine a child's aptitude and they are steered into either vocational schools or Gymnasium (which is their high school, but its more like a college prep school).

After some wiki research, it appears that basically the path is set by the performance. Different levels of school are achieved by higher performers from grade 5 on. There are like 5 different types of high schools and only Gymnasium grads take the Arbitur exam with qualifies one for University. Most of the rest of the schools steer to vocational type programs and apprenticeships.

This is true. Worked with a German guy and he mentioned this.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

How many people here that are against spending more on education, are also against the government spending money on food stamps/ other assistance for the poor?

I'm not necessarily against spending more on education. This is just kind of a dumb way to go about it.

 

[tommyGunZ]

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

Why not triple or quadruple it?

Maybe you're right. Like I said, I'd "at least" double it.

What would you be willing to trade for $2 trillion a year in education spending? I'm a deal maker.

Kings don't make deals.

But since I'm a responsible economic policy maker, I'd pay for much/most of this increased spending via spending cuts (defense budget gets cut with a chain saw, prison budget with an axe) and with increased taxes on top bracket earners (huge increases via several higher brackets and closing insane loopholes like carried interest).

I'd also raise rates on those in the 2nd highest bracket, though just marginally.

 

[TheAristocrat]

Maybe we can throw money at the problem faster

 

[Yankee23Fan]

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

Why not triple or quadruple it?

Maybe you're right. Like I said, I'd "at least" double it.

What would you be willing to trade for $2 trillion a year in education spending? I'm a deal maker.

Kings don't make deals.

But since I'm a responsible economic policy maker, I'd pay for much/most of this increased spending via spending cuts (defense budget gets cut with a chain saw, prison budget with an axe) and with increased taxes on top bracket earners (huge increases via several higher brackets and closing insane loopholes like carried interest).

I'd also raise rates on those in the 2nd highest bracket, though just marginally.

Yeah, no you are doing it wrong. You need to give up something to get what you want.

 

[Bonfire]

Seems to be correlated with the general push to keep newly minted 'adults' in the realm of children longer. The insurance riders up to 26, or whatever it is, reminds me of this. Since its very unlikely to lower the voting age below 18, keep the young voters in a bubble of childhood longer if possible.

Those who've either left high school, or upper learning have very different opinions/world views after actually 'being out there' in the work force. This could increase the number of "young voters" as they are normally considered in a sense, not by increasing their actual numbers, but by swelling the cocoon childish idealism and general lack of immediate consequences. Keep them young and dumb for as long as possible.

Though do agree, its a hollow gesture, and very unlikely to go anywhere for a number of reasons detailed in this thread.

 

[roadkill1292]

In FY2015 we're slated to spend over $1Trillion on education. How much more is "far" more?

I haven't done the math, but in the YankeeFan23 "If I were US King for a day" vein, I'd at least double education spending if I wore the crown.

Why not triple or quadruple it?

Maybe you're right. Like I said, I'd "at least" double it.

What would you be willing to trade for $2 trillion a year in education spending? I'm a deal maker.

Kings don't make deals.

But since I'm a responsible economic policy maker, I'd pay for much/most of this increased spending via spending cuts (defense budget gets cut with a chain saw, prison budget with an axe) and with increased taxes on top bracket earners (huge increases via several higher brackets and closing insane loopholes like carried interest).

I'd also raise rates on those in the 2nd highest bracket, though just marginally.

Yeah, no you are doing it wrong. You need to give up something to get what you want.

I know what you're driving at but answering the question in the context of "how do we pay for it" is the appropriate way, as gunz did here.

 

[raidergil]

How many people here that are against spending more on education, are also against the government spending money on food stamps/ other assistance for the poor?

That's the message the left will push. As soon as Congress questions how we will pay for this the left will say 'GOP against education!'

 

[Sand]

Maybe we can throw money at the problem faster

Maybe we can speed this up.

 

[Rich Conway]

Additional investment in education is almost always a good investment. Obviously there are examples at the margins some will point to, but overall, in general, we would be better off as a society redistributing far more resources than we currently are to education.

Here's the thing, though. Even if one concedes that we should invest more heavily in education, the fact that the funds available for investment aren't infinite means we should choose investments with the greatest return. By definition, that makes some investments not "good investments". I don't particularly know if this particular one would be "good", but I can say with certainty that "more investment in education is almost always a good investment" is false.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

How many people here that are against spending more on education, are also against the government spending money on food stamps/ other assistance for the poor?

That's the message the left will push. As soon as Congress questions how we will pay for this the left will say 'GOP against education!'

I wrote this when discussing the proposal with a friend yesterday: It's easy legislation to propose because you can label opposition anti-education, anti-youth, and anti-betterment. If it disproportionately affects minorities you can also hint at racism. Shrewd political move.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Good lord people education is not a right, community college is not a right, health care is not a right, leisure time and a whole host of things are not rights. Obama is talking about a constitution and a country that does not exist. How about we just pay our bills with the money we have, have a balanced budget and then make decisions from there?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

How many people here that are against spending more on education, are also against the government spending money on food stamps/ other assistance for the poor?

That's the message the left will push. As soon as Congress questions how we will pay for this the left will say 'GOP against education!'

I wrote this when discussing the proposal with a friend yesterday: It's easy legislation to propose because you can label opposition anti-education, anti-youth, and anti-betterment. If it disproportionately affects minorities you can also hint at racism. Shrewd political move.

"Shrewd" or disingenuous?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Good lord people education is not a right, community college is not a right, health care is not a right, leisure time and a whole host of things are not rights. Obama is talking about a constitution and a country that does not exist. How about we just pay our bills with the money we have, have a balanced budget and then make decisions from there?

Education of the population is very much a necessity of the government. A republic does not function without some level of education amongst the populace. The argument that it is not a right is really missing the point of the topic. It is in our short and long term best interest under almost every single definition you can come up with to make sure there is a large enough segment of our population that is educated to some level. The debate isn't that. It's how much of a percentage and what level. And with that, once defined, what if anything should the various levels of government do to ensure that happens.