Toby2ElectricBugaloo
Footballguy
Well, one thing wrong with them is that they have pretty terrible per capita rates of gun homicides.
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Shooting at Texas school - Kids among victims (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter eoMMan
- Start date
Well, one thing wrong with them is that they have pretty terrible per capita rates of gun homicides.
Max Power
Footballguy
You're doing deaths which include suicide. Homicides drop us way down because we also have a suicide problem in this country.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.
Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finshed 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Yes, gun deaths. We're second only to Brazil in this list:
Countries with the Highest Total Gun Deaths (all causes) in 2019
Brazil (49436)
United States (37038)
Venezuela (28515)
Mexico (22116)
India (14710)
Colombia (13169)
Philippines (9267)
Guatemala (5980)
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I made a point in the other thread that I think needs repeating in here: the majority of the school shooters are current or former kids of the school ( I think it was 85%+) They also plan and study other shooters. The point is - they know the school, where the guards are, what the drills are, where the kids are told to hide, what teachers might be more incompetent, etc, etc, etc. Makes it much more difficult to harden the target of the school when you are training the shooters right with the rest of the people.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
NM, I clicked the wrong way. 
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Well that is the literally the first wiki page I have ever seen with zero references. May as well be a blog post.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
It's a problem, but different discussion.
(unless there is more focus on mental health in general and less on stopping shooters after they get to that point, as that would also help with our suicide problem as well).
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
General Malaise
Footballguy
Why 21? Why not 25? I mean, many rental car agencies won't rent a car to people under 25. I don't see public outrage over that.
Max Power
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Technically, the original list is homicides per capital, assuming each country only has one capital.
rick6668
Footballguy
Maybe cause they can buy a car. Unless you're saying you can't buy or drive a car til 25. Not sure you're going to get support on that,
LawFitz
Footballguy
There is so much graft and corruption when it comes to the handling of public resources. If we really wanted to pay for a real cop at every school, we could most definitely find the money to make it happen at their existing salary levels. Maybe don't send $40 B overseas in an effort to be the world police and instead do a better job of being our police.
Or don't. But let's not make outrageous, nonsensical claims (not saying you are doing so, but others are) about how this and secure doors into classrooms would have no material effect.
I don't want to hear about taking away 2A, unless it's part of a more comprehensive multi-faceted solution. I think most 2A proponents are willing to compromise within reason and that includes a multi-layered approach, rather than just the 'take their guns' mindset so many here and elsewhere seem to cling onto religiously and hyperbolically.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Suicides of any nature are a mental health problem. Take away their guns and they will just find another way to kill themselves. This is a ridiculous take and Im all for better gun control.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
The same people blocking gun reforms are also blocking every possible expansion to mental health care.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Yeah, that's a good rebuttal. I dunno, I'm just spitballing and hoping SOMETHING sticks. This not doing anything at all over the last 20 years + just guts me.
whoknew
Footballguy
Link
In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45 attempts—is that so many could be prevented. Research shows that whether attempters live or die depends in large part on the ready availability of highly lethal means, especially firearms.
A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. Based on a survey of American households conducted in 2002, HSPH Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Management Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the School’s Injury Control Research Center (ICRC), found that in states where guns were prevalent—as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns—rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.
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Link
Evidence consistently shows that access to firearms increases the risk of suicide. 5,6,7,8,9,10,11Access to a gun in the home increases the odds of suicide more than three-fold.12 Firearms are so dangerous when someone is at risk for suicide because they are the most lethal suicide attempt method.
Though research shows that few individuals substitute means for suicide if their preferred method is not available, if firearms are not available, the person at risk for suicide is much more likely to survive even if they attempt using another method.13 Delaying a suicide attempt can also allow suicidal crises to pass and lead to fewer suicides. Ninety percent of individuals who attempt suicide do not eventually go on to die by suicide.14 The use of a firearm in a suicide attempt often means there is no second chance.
Guns increase the risk of suicide for anyone living in the home, including children. A recent study found that household gun ownership was the best predictor of youth suicide. For every 10 percentage-point increase in estimated household gun ownership, the suicide rate among youths ages 14-19 years increased nearly 27%.15 Reducing access to lethal means, such as firearms, is critical to saving lives.
squistion
Footballguy
And I thought Jason Whitlock had bad takes on sports. :(
Davos Detainee Poso@JackPosobiec
I never thought I would see armed Texans standing around while a gunman was killing children in a schoolhouse Something has gone very, very wrong
Jason Whitlock@WhitlockJason 7h
I'm not defending the actions of the officers. But we've demonized law enforcement to the point that there are far fewer rewards for being a hero, for taking risks. When your culture makes George Floyd the hero, real heroes stand down. Cultural rot has consequences.
Our culture has moved such a negative direction in the last decade, I'm not sure first responders would run up in the World Trade Towers today. Cultural rot has consequences. When you make heroes of people who contribute nothing and demonize those who risk everything.
https://twitter.com/WhitlockJason/status/1529808763712061440
Davos Detainee Poso@JackPosobiec
I never thought I would see armed Texans standing around while a gunman was killing children in a schoolhouse Something has gone very, very wrong
Jason Whitlock@WhitlockJason 7h
I'm not defending the actions of the officers. But we've demonized law enforcement to the point that there are far fewer rewards for being a hero, for taking risks. When your culture makes George Floyd the hero, real heroes stand down. Cultural rot has consequences.
Our culture has moved such a negative direction in the last decade, I'm not sure first responders would run up in the World Trade Towers today. Cultural rot has consequences. When you make heroes of people who contribute nothing and demonize those who risk everything.
https://twitter.com/WhitlockJason/status/1529808763712061440
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the moops
Footballguy
Teachers are underpaid. Schools need more paraprofessionals and the ones they have are severely underpaid. Schools also need a full-time nurse - few do. They need more counselors, specially after the difficult times these past 2 + years. Some schools don't have enough food for students. Arts and Phys Ed and a host of other important subjects have been slashed. There are too many kids in each classroom and the sizes keep growing. Etc.
We never properly get the schools the resources they need.
All this to say 1) I am skeptical that we ever would find the money to put armed security in every school in the country, 2) If they did find the money, it would come from already underfunded school budgets and would require additional slashing of programs/classes/etc. 3) Even if we do arm school staff or have armed police officers, school shootings will still happen and schools will still be underfunded and unable to educate our youngest properly
We never properly get the schools the resources they need.
All this to say 1) I am skeptical that we ever would find the money to put armed security in every school in the country, 2) If they did find the money, it would come from already underfunded school budgets and would require additional slashing of programs/classes/etc. 3) Even if we do arm school staff or have armed police officers, school shootings will still happen and schools will still be underfunded and unable to educate our youngest properly
The figures are a combination of two other wiki articles (linked at the top) that have 38 references between them.
rick6668
Footballguy
I agree.
Yeah, unfortunately, not allowing anyone to drive until 25 would likely save way more lives.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Listened to the K&S episode - good stuff, although as you can see in here I am still not in agreement with them saying that THIS is what they signed up for or are trained for.
That said, if it's true (I haven't known them to spread false info yet) that some police went into the building to get their own kids, well then #### that.
That said, if it's true (I haven't known them to spread false info yet) that some police went into the building to get their own kids, well then #### that.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
I just heard on MSNBC that police waited outside with the parents for almost an hour before finally going in. The frantic parents were begging them to go in, so much so that a mom was put in handcuffs and a Dad was tackled and arrested. WTF????
I am so sickened by all this. So much broken.
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dozer
Footballguy
This is what I keep thinking about when folks talk about arming teachers. I worked with many amazing professionals during my career in education. Some of the hardest working, caring people I’ve ever met.
But, man… there weren’t many teachers that I would trust with a gun. It’s almost laughable to think about.
When I was an administrator, I ran the Career Center (Vo-tech for you old timers), and it was a bit different. I would have easily approved the Vo-Ag teachers (sponsors of the skeet shooting team) and the Building Trades teacher was pretty level headed, but I had a couple of Auto Mech teachers that were just plain unstable. No way those guys would get guns if I had a say.
But rank and file elementary, middle school, and high school…. No, these are not the people to be protecting our children with guns.
Even other administrators... a couple I worked with could handle a gun, but most don’t need to be put in that spot. They would fail.
Just my small data set…
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
Agree for the most part. I agree that teachers are underpaid. We need to fix that. But teachers also need to realize that this is not "get rich" business like, say, the NFL. There is going to be a cap on salaries at some point.
We give BILLIONS to education. Here in Milwaukee alone, the budget is 1.3 BILLION dollars.
It's definitely not the dollar amount, it's how that money is being spent. Way too many administrators, managers and supervisors and not enough talent. I feel like there is grifting going on here in our education system - like the Russian military.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Don't know that I've read every post in the thread, but have we already covered Paul Gosar tweeting that the shooter was a leftist, transgender, illegal alien? Have we also covered certain posters here spreading the transgender disinformation?
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
There was an interview with an officer on the scene who admitted that some officers had gone in to rescue their own kids, but then left the building with just their kids. Didn't do anything else. At least for that first hour.
And whoever the guy was doing the press conference today refuses to answer any questions about it.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
And neither article refernced gives a homicide by firearm per capita stat. It references gun ownership per capita and homicide per capita pages. Neither page addresses the death by firearm statistic.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
If this turns out to be true then we need to jail some police officers. Unbelievable. Dereliction of Duty for one.
If I was one of those parents, it would take all I have not to do something I would regret.
Max Power
Footballguy
The story keeps getting weirder. Grandpa was a felon who cant have guns in the house. Had no idea the had them.
Shooter didn't have a license and didnt know how to drive (probably why he wrecked).
Unsure who drove him to the gun store or how he afforded it.
Some girl called the FBI on the shooter before the shooting because he was going on about shooting up a school in an online game.
Shooter didn't have a license and didnt know how to drive (probably why he wrecked).
Unsure who drove him to the gun store or how he afforded it.
Some girl called the FBI on the shooter before the shooting because he was going on about shooting up a school in an online game.
the moops
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Yeah, I consider myself moderate on this topic with the exception that I lean hard into a 25 year-old minimum. I'd allow exceptions for hunting rifles (don't want to debate definitions related to "hunting."), self-defense pistols, and probably a few others that escape me.
While part of me would love to be 18-25 years old again, my decision making was monumentally bad during that part of my life - like riding ##### on a Yamaha 1100 Midnight Special; down a dark, rural road; at 110 mph; without a helmet; and obviously under the influence. It was a Tuesday.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
Heard this last night as well. Also stories mom is an addict, that's why living with grandmom.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
I looked for the tweet, but couldn't find it. However, WTF is wrong with that dude? Can't believe he is a sitting congressman. Nearly every tweet is something like this
The Democratic party is the party of hatred. They hate America, they hate people who love America, and they hate the religion and the descendants of the people who built America.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
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