2014 NFL Draft thread (2 Viewers)

[jurb26]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

 

[matuski]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

And I would again. I've said all along I'd take the under on his listed height.

Bottom line he is average at best in height. Which brings back the topic.

Or we could keep doing this I guess.. nothing else to do for a bit.

 

[jurb26]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

And I would again.

And you would be wrong again.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

And I would again.

And you would be wrong again.

He likes to round down.

 

[jurb26]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

And I would again.

And you would be wrong again.

He likes to round down.

Cool, I like accuracy.

 

[pantherclub]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

We are having trouble understanding your point. You are kindof all over the place here.

Are you saying Watkins is tiny? Are you saying Evans is better? Are you saying a 6'1 wr shouldnt go in the top 10? What exactly are you talking about here?

 

[pantherclub]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

And I would again. I've said all along I'd take the under on his listed height.

Bottom line he is average at best in height. Which brings back the topic.

Or we could keep doing this I guess.. nothing else to do for a bit.

Was Torry Holt dominant? Marvin Harrison?

 

[Bob Magaw]

Watkins may not make it past Stl. At #2 imo.

IMO he shouldnt....my favorite player in the draft and the WR the Rams are missing....put this go-to guy there and their crop of number 2s and 3s suddenly look pretty dangerous. They should jump on this guy.....

I'm not saying they should pass, but that is a whole lot of early picks thrown at the WR position for St. Louis the last few years if they choose Watkins.

depends on your perspective.

givens a fourth. pettis a third. bailey a third. quick a second (albeit the 2.1). austin a first (1.8), but he was the only first round WR for STL in the past decade and a half, since torry holt in the super bowl winning season of 1999. austin isn't a WR1-type, though adding a true WR1 like watkins could create more space for him and make him more dangerous. if they add him, IMO they would start watkins and bailey in two WR sets with austin in three WR sets, plus they have cook at TE, representing a lot of speed at WR/TE.

not to compare watkins to calvin johnson, but recall there was a school of thought that the lions shouldn't take calvin johnson after fellow top 10 WRs rogers, roy williams and BMW disappointed in rapid succession. clearly in retrospect, that would have been a huge mistake. there are limits to BPA theory. if a TE is coincidentally BPA with a top 10 pick a decade in a row, you likely aren't drafting 10 straight TEs. but for the reasons outlined above, i don't think this is one of those cases.

possibly STL will draft a LT like matthews, or greg robinson if he declares, with the top pick (you can certainly make a case for that, and maybe they could get a WR later, or a DB?)... especially with jake long tearing his ACL. though if he does return, former OAK third rounder barksdale played very well at RT, and if the rams retain saffold (far from a given, but at any rate, this will be known by the draft), that would give them a lot of flexibility, he can play anywhere on the line besides center, and was playing the best of his NFL career by far at RG. 2013 high fourth round OL and former outland trophy winner barret jones recovered from a foot injury in what was effectively a redshirt year, but he is thought to be a future starter at center or guard.

if STL takes watkins, there could be OL options at 1.13 (maybe they could move down from 1.2 and up from 1.13, fisher and snead moved up for austin and down for ogletree this year, and they haven't used any of their three first rounders since 2012 from the original slot?). maybe robinson (though he probably goes higher), lewan, cujo, erving, or maybe a top guard like richardson or yankey later?

 

[matuski]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

And I would again. I've said all along I'd take the under on his listed height.

Bottom line he is average at best in height. Which brings back the topic.

Or we could keep doing this I guess.. nothing else to do for a bit.

Was Torry Holt dominant? Marvin Harrison?

They were extremely productive in their systems and great WR's. I would not say either of them were dominant in the way the monsters of today are. Neither of them is going to go grab a ball out of the air over multiple defenders the way you see these guys doing it today. Just physically dominate, I wouldn't describe either of them as that player.

In that era I would lean towards Randy Moss/Herman Moore/Chris Carter as the predecessors of today's freaks. No system, no design, no reads - double teamed? Oh well throw it anyway kind of guys. Holt and Harrison would be more in line with the Wayne and Welker.... damn fine WR's. Fantasy speaking there isn't any difference, but I'm not talking fantasy.

I'll just repeat that given a handful of first round talents, if I am spending a top 10 pick I'm going with the guy that is always open (even when he isn't).

I was hoping someone would explain what they saw in Lee or Watkins that would make them forgo the only sure distinguishing factor I see among the three (Evans ability to go up and get it). I watched plenty of Evans and Watkins the last couple years, I am not familiar with Lee beyond a couple non-noteworthy games.

Unfortunately instead of talking about the draft I'm getting a list of possible exceptions to a general statement along with the predictable hater/fanboy stuff. I guess I will adjust my expectations here.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Until last night's game, I had a hard time seeing Watkins as a true #1 WR in the NFL. Still don't see him in the same tier as Dez, AJ, or Calvin, but he showed us all that he can dominate against good college competition. He still seems a little bit small, but he's not too far from Crabtree's size. If he also has Crabtree's work ethic, he'll be comparable IMO.

Fits a need for St. Louis, but if they can trade down to a QB needy team or a team targeting Clowney, they should do so. (same can be said about most teams though)

i think watkins ran a 10.4 100 m. as a prep. a foot injury prevented crabtree from running a 40 time, though my recollection is that it wouldn't have been a big surprise if he had run a 4.5. his game is more about short area quickness and explosion (jerry rice a cliche for a player that probably wouldn't have run a 4.4 but was rarely caught from behind because he had unparalleled short area quickness, burst and explosion). i don't think crabtree would have come anywhere near a 10.4 100 m., but that didn't prevent him being a top 10 overall pick, due to his stellar two years of production at texas tech. like teammate anquan boldin, they were both gifted prep running QBs converted to WR in college, with questions about their speed, but proven to have more than sufficient and adequate functional, playing, field speed at the next level. interestingly, west virginia HC and air raid passing attack architect dana holgorsen oversaw the development (as a position coach, OC or HC) of welker, crabtree and tavon austin/stedman bailey.

but I digress. the image i'd like to capture revolves around the crabtree comp. as good as he is (and IMO, he is very good, if not top 10, before the achilles injury he was knocking on the door once kaepernick was inserted into the starting lineup in 2012... no reason he can't get back if he makes something close to a full recovery and returns to form)... what if he had run a 10.4 100 m. and flashed that kind of speed and explosiveness on the field.

would not crabtree than be a different animal (and be held in even higher esteem than he already is)?

it is true watkins is not the prospect AJ green and julio jones were. but he is the best prospect since them. and if they were the best prospects since calvin johnson, you could possibly make a case that the three of them (green, jones and watkins) are the best prospects since johnson*. blackmon was a high pick, but i like watkins better (not just because of the suspensions, but even trying to isolate out and compartmentalize that knowledge out of the equation, just straight up as a prospect at a comparable stage of development). dez bryant and demaryius thomas have flashed greatness, but in their draft, as prospects at that time, they dropped to the twenties for various reasons (off field concerns with dez, lack of use due to georgia tech's scheme in the case of thomas, which complicated his evaluation more than fellow alum calvin johnson, obviously).

i've mentioned it before, but watkins has a historic distinction on his collegiate resume. he basically made the transition from the prep ranks and hit the ground running arguably faster and better than any other WR in NCAA history. he is the only WR to ever make AP first team All American as a true freshman. and only the fourth at any position, period. the other three (all RBs), were historically good at both the collegiate and pro levels: herschell walker (if he had gone straight into the NFL instead of his USFL detour, probably would have been a slam dunk hall of famer), marshall faulk (hall of famer) and adrian peterson (future hall of famer).

* suffice it to say, AFTER green and jones, watkins is ONE OF the top WR prospects to enter the draft since calvin johnson (including bryant, thomas and blackmon).

 

[Gandalf]

Isaac Bruce. Was not tall either. Watkins could be Bruce 2.0

 

[Bob Magaw]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

And I would again. I've said all along I'd take the under on his listed height.

Bottom line he is average at best in height. Which brings back the topic.

Or we could keep doing this I guess.. nothing else to do for a bit.

Was Torry Holt dominant? Marvin Harrison?

They were extremely productive in their systems and great WR's. I would not say either of them were dominant in the way the monsters of today are. Neither of them is going to go grab a ball out of the air over multiple defenders the way you see these guys doing it today. Just physically dominate, I wouldn't describe either of them as that player.

In that era I would lean towards Randy Moss/Herman Moore/Chris Carter as the predecessors of today's freaks. No system, no design, no reads - double teamed? Oh well throw it anyway kind of guys. Holt and Harrison would be more in line with the Wayne and Welker.... damn fine WR's. Fantasy speaking there isn't any difference, but I'm not talking fantasy.

I'll just repeat that given a handful of first round talents, if I am spending a top 10 pick I'm going with the guy that is always open (even when he isn't).

I was hoping someone would explain what they saw in Lee or Watkins that would make them forgo the only sure distinguishing factor I see among the three (Evans ability to go up and get it). I watched plenty of Evans and Watkins the last couple years, I am not familiar with Lee beyond a couple non-noteworthy games.

Unfortunately instead of talking about the draft I'm getting a list of possible exceptions to a general statement along with the predictable hater/fanboy stuff. I guess I will adjust my expectations here.

"I see we are devolving into a list of 6 foot tall WR's. I'm well aware of the numerous productive receivers at and under 6 feet... I'm aware of zero elite WR's that aren't taller and bigger. I'm talking about the "throw it up even when they are double teamed" guys.

I don't consider Blackmon/Crabtree/Garcon/S.Smith/T.Smith/Wayne/Cruz/etc to be receivers you would look for in a top 10 pick. That isn't to say they aren't very good WR's, I just wouldn't place them in the top half of #1's in the league.

When you list out the dominating WR's in the league you see a pattern of height and size... namely a few inches and 25+ pounds.

That is the discussion I was trying to bring out... there are a surplus of freak talented athletes in the league, but it appears rarer to get that along with the size.

I'm just a guy posting on a message board, but when I watch the handful of top ranked WR's coming out this year... I feel like Evans would be the guy that comes along less often. As such I would imagine he would be more sought after by the NFL teams drafting high."

i'll also respond to post #97 above. there is a lot of overlap, but they are different enough to deserve separate responses.

when you say there are zero elite WRs that aren't taller than 6'0", how would you classify or categorize roddy white? he is listed at 6'0" 215 (watkins 6'1" 205). they aren't exact comps. white is a bit more compact, and probably stronger (state wrestling champ as a prep, somewhat unusual resume for a WR). watkins appears to be faster and more explosive, and possibly more dangerous in the open field and after the catch. no WR has more receiving yards than white since 2007. he doesn't have elite TD production like calvin johnson or AJ green, but he seems elite in just about every other respect (four time pro bowler, he was a WR1 long before julio jones). he did get drafted towards the end of round one. i have tried to talk about the prospects in terms of their status and standing during their respective drafts. but what if we do include our knowledge of what they have done. if you had a time machine and knew you could have a 21-22 year old roddy white, wouldn't you give him a top 10 grade this year? crabtree was a top 10 pick. personally, i don't think SF regrets that pick. for various reasons he got off to a slow start, but he looked like an emerging star last year, he was a first down machine for the offense, and played a huge role on offense (with kaepernick) in leading the team to the super bowl. blackmon is hard to evaulate due to the suspensions (and his level of QB play), but has certainly looked like a star at times, and potentially worthy of a top 10 pick if he can fulfill his potential.

without flooding the 2014 draft with vet WRs, but just inserting them one at a time and looking at how they would fare separately, if you could get a rookie steve smith in this draft, would that be worth a top 10 pick? further above you link holt, harrison, wayne and welker and call them damn fine WRs? holt, harrison and wayne have hall of fame worthy numbers. welker is one of the best slot, possession WRs ever. i'd have to think you would be in a vanishingly small minority if you wouldn't take holt, harrison or wayne with a top 10 pick, knowing how they turned out. of course we don't know how watkins (or evans) will turn out, but we are looking at the same historical facts, known measurables, making inferences about skill set comps, and drawing vastly different conclusions, so that should be worth exploring how it is possible to look at the same thing and come to such diametrically opposite judgements based on that.

respectfully, IMO it sounds like you are being harsh in your estimation and appraisal of the body of work of WRs like holt, harrison and wayne (as well as the oversight of roddy white).

i get that you weigh triangle numbers, athleticism and explosiveness measureables highly. but one thing about evans, you are linking evans with WRs like calvin, AJ, julio, dez, demaryius, josh gordon. MOST of them are tall (6'3"+) and have imposing, LB-like size (220+ lbs).. but AJ is actually pretty skinny compared to his peers (6'4" but only 206 lbs). bryant is 220+ lbs, but only 6'2"? is one inch really such a big difference? if watkins is 6'1", he seems to have the kind of frame where he could, through natural physical maturation and development, get to 210 or 215 lbs in a few years? but another common denominator and constant is these WRs all have outstanding speed for their size.

IF evans runs a 4.4 (i doubt it), that would be exceptional speed for his size. vincent jackson (3 X pro bowler) is an oft-cited comp, but on film he looks faster and more explosive, a legit 4.4 WR. if evans runs something like a 4.5 (probably crabtree's speed, but again, to me he flashes more short area quickness and explosiveness), than he doesn't belong with the other monster size/speed physical specimens and athletic freaks that you have rightly observed populate the top ranks of the contemporary NFL WR landscape, and that is a miscast comp.

another way to parse your observations and comparisons by physical prototype and skill set comps is to compare a WR like evans with a holt or harrison. is it necessarily better to have a WR that is supposedly open even when he isn't open? evans didn't finish his last game as strongly as watkins (and his production was in fact somewhat muted and subdued in his last few games). certainly he had great games against first rate competition (see alabama). but there were other times when he struggled to separate, and that was in college. how is that going to work in the pros? you mentioned cris carter (a hall of famer, but also dissimilar to some of the top WRs today in that he likely didn't have 4.4 speed - you clearly like size AND speed preferably, and who doesn't, but if a WR doesn't have both, you seem to favor size over speed). he was a master at boxing out like a power forward and walling off the DB by positioning his body between the ball and the defender. so was tony gonzalez, maybe the top receiving TE ever with kellen winslow (gronk and graham have a long ways to go), and it was probably no accident that he actually was a power forward for the cal basketball team. MAYBE evans will prove adept at this as a pro. MAYBE like herman moore, he will be prove adept in the NFL at skying for 50/50 balls. but these types of plays can require precision, timing and accuracy from the QB or the better caliber NFL DBs may swat those away. you seem to be overlooking the advantages to a WR like holt or harrison that always ran their routes the same way, didn't telegraph them, could cut at full speed, and due to these traits and attributes, would often be open by a car length.

of course, everybody would want calvin johnson or randy moss. but players like that might only come along once a decade. that isn't a realistic option in most drafts (and again, evans isn't them, not close, they were legit sub-4.4 prospects).

every draft is different. clowney is a lock top 10 pick, but may be the only top 10 DL. mack may be the only top 10 LB. there may not be a top 10 DB (maybe one?). matthews may be the only top 10 worthy OL (though that said, there could be several that go). there will probably be at least three and possibly more QBs that go in the top 10. no RBs. likely no TEs (talented class with possibly as many as three first rounders, the most i can think of in recent memory if not since the merger and common draft, but vernon davis was the last TE drafted in the top 10). watkins might be the only top 10 WR (there could be two, i don't think three with all the QBs, OL and clowney).

so where are the top 10 picks going to come from? front offices, coaching staffs and scouting departments aren't going to reach for a lower graded other position just because watkins isn't 6'4" 220, if he carries a top 5 overall grade. if he runs a sub-4.4 40 and has something like a 38"+ VJ, and his tests confirm his body of work and production on film, he is without a doubt going to be a very hot property come draft time.

everybody is entitled to their opinion, but i have never heard anybody describe watkins as tiny looking? lee is smaller than watkins, BTW, so if you think watkins is suspect based on size grounds, you should be all the more so concerned in the case of lee, in the interest of consistency. lee had a phenomenal 2012 campaign, and may be better than watkins (though i don't think he will grade as high, partly due to size reasons you are very congnizant of in the case of watkins, though you didn't mention with lee). but watkins has less size-related concerns than lee. and watkins has less speed/explosiveness concerns than evans. that is why he will be the top graded WR prospect from the class of 2014 (despite an off field indiscretion as a soph, he sounds like a high character-type that loves football and by all acounts has a great work ethic).

 

[Bob Magaw]

Imagine Crabtree if he ran a 10.4 100 m.

 

[Bob Magaw]

If you think Watkins is "tiny" at 6'1" 205 lbs, Lee is smaller at 6'0" 195 lbs. Did he look "tiny" to you? You are literally the only person I have ever heard use the word tiny to describe Watkins. Google Watkins and tiny together and see if you get lots of hits. This may confirm for you that nobody else shares this position.

Your comparison of Evans to the top contemporary size/speed WRs is off the mark if he is missing the speed part of the equation.

The advantage to a Torry Holt or Marvin Harrison over a relatively more lumbering WR that struggled to get separation at times in college, and may to an even greater degree against NFL DBs with superior speed, talent and athleticism, is that the traits and attributes of Holt and Harrison rendered 50/50 ball skills moot, if they were routinely wide open.

You are IMO grossly underestimating Holt in calling him "damn fine", but not as worthy of a top 10 pick as Evans. Holt (and Harrison and Wayne, etc.) put up borderline Hall of Fame numbers.

You didn't mention Roddy White. He is 6'0" 215 lbs. No NFL WR has more receiving yards since 2007. Is he elite? If you don't think he is elite, with all due respect, how useful is your categorization/classificatory scheme if it can't account for or find a place to include a WR that puts up elite numbers like White?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

After Manziel and Watkins performances in the bowl games I've tweeked an early top-ten projection.

1. Houston Texans

QB Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M

Johnny Football appears to have surpassed Bridgewater IMHO. I think we will see this projected more going forward.

　

2. Atlanta Falcons (from St. Louis via Washington)

DE Jadeveon Clowney, South Carolina

TRADE* Clowney is the BPA of the draft. Atlanta moving-up and St. Louis moving down makes sense and could happen. I don't think anyone moves up for a QB but would for Clowney if some team checks off on the character issues.

　

3. Jacksonville Jaguars

QB Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville

Jacksonville gets one of the two franchise quarterbacks of this class.

　

4. Cleveland Browns

WR Sammy Watkins, Clemson

Their is a drop-off after the first two QBs. Watkins is a WR Justin Blackmon type of receiving talent without the JB character issues. The Browns probably can get a second-tier QB later in the first or even in the second round.

　

5. Oakland Raiders

DE Khalil Mack, Buffalo

Mack looks like he will be a great pass rusher. Like Cleveland, Oakland can't bypass taking a sure blue-chip prospect like Mack and they would think a QB would be there for them in the second round.

6. St. Louis Rams

OT Jake Matthews, Texas A&M

Rams get the guy they wanted plus extras.

　

7. Tampa Bay Buccaneers

OLB Anthony Barr, UCLA

Solid player, Bucs could use upgrade at pass rush, Barr looks like he will be a very good pass rusher.

　

8. Minnesota Vikings

QB Blake Bortles, Central Florida

Bortles was considered a second round pick recently so this seems like a reach but he's rising and the Vikings can't sit tight with Cassel and Ponder. They a QB and his stock will rise so what looks like paying a premium now may turn into a bargain later.

　

9. Buffalo Bills

OT Taylor Lewan, Michigan

BPA sitting atop the board. Too good to pass up.

　

10. Detroit Lions

CB Darqueze Dennard, Michigan State

Long standing need meets BPA.

 

[pantherclub]

zero percent chance he goes #1

 

[matuski]

If you think Watkins is "tiny" at 6'1" 205 lbs, Lee is smaller at 6'0" 195 lbs. Did he look "tiny" to you? You are literally the only person I have ever heard use the word tiny to describe Watkins. Google Watkins and tiny together and see if you get lots of hits. This may confirm for you that nobody else shares this position.

Your comparison of Evans to the top contemporary size/speed WRs is off the mark if he is missing the speed part of the equation.

The advantage to a Torry Holt or Marvin Harrison over a relatively more lumbering WR that struggled to get separation at times in college, and may to an even greater degree against NFL DBs with superior speed, talent and athleticism, is that the traits and attributes of Holt and Harrison rendered 50/50 ball skills moot, if they were routinely wide open.

You are IMO grossly underestimating Holt in calling him "damn fine", but not as worthy of a top 10 pick as Evans. Holt (and Harrison and Wayne, etc.) put up borderline Hall of Fame numbers.

You didn't mention Roddy White. He is 6'0" 215 lbs. No NFL WR has more receiving yards since 2007. Is he elite? If you don't think he is elite, with all due respect, how useful is your categorization/classificatory scheme if it can't account for or find a place to include a WR that puts up elite numbers like White?

I didn't say they weren't great receivers, and statistically they are indeed elite. Damn fine about covers it.

What they are not and were not is today's protypical WR that is never covered.

I'll keep trying to draw this back to Evans vs. Watkins and Lee. I see Evans being the "harder to find" weapon. I am not in any way doubting Watkins will be a great WR.

 

[Slapdash]

8. Minnesota Vikings

QB Blake Bortles, Central Florida

Bortles was considered a second round pick recently so this seems like a reach but he's rising and the Vikings can't sit tight with Cassel and Ponder. They a QB and his stock will rise so what looks like paying a premium now may turn into a bargain later.

　

9. Buffalo Bills

OT Taylor Lewan, Michigan

BPA sitting atop the board. Too good to pass up.

Bortles would be a good fit with the types of weapons Minnesota has imo.

I feel like I've seen Lewan all over boards this year. HE was a top ten guy coming into the year, any reason he would drop?

 

[Bob Magaw]

posts that say nothing more than posts will get deleted, will get deleted.

posts that refer to the posts referring to deleting posts getting deleted, will also be deleted.

if you can't post something substantive, don't post.

 

[FUBAR]

I'm not saying they won't be productive or good options at the next level... but why are people leaning to Watkins and Lee over Evans?

Watkins looked tiny standing on a college field last night. Wouldn't the NFL be looking for the physical guy with size ala Calvin, AJ, Gordon, Demarius, Dez, Alshon, Graham, etc as a top pick?

Is a 6 foot WR going to be a game breaker (what I would expect from a top 10 pick) in the NFL these days?

Did you see what Blackmon was doing prior to his suspension?

I see we are devolving into a list of 6 foot tall WR's. I'm well aware of the numerous productive receivers at and under 6 feet... I'm aware of zero elite WR's that aren't taller and bigger. I'm talking about the "throw it up even when they are double teamed" guys.

I don't consider Blackmon/Crabtree/Garcon/S.Smith/T.Smith/Wayne/Cruz/etc to be receivers you would look for in a top 10 pick. That isn't to say they aren't very good WR's, I just wouldn't place them in the top half of #1's in the league.

When you list out the dominating WR's in the league you see a pattern of height and size... namely a few inches and 25+ pounds.

That is the discussion I was trying to bring out... there are a surplus of freak talented athletes in the league, but it appears rarer to get that along with the size.

I'm just a guy posting on a message board, but when I watch the handful of top ranked WR's coming out this year... I feel like Evans would be the guy that comes along less often. As such I would imagine he would be more sought after by the NFL teams drafting high.

you're going to be in the minority if you wouldn't consider Wayne to have been worth a top ten pick.

 

[Bob Magaw]

If you think Watkins is "tiny" at 6'1" 205 lbs, Lee is smaller at 6'0" 195 lbs. Did he look "tiny" to you? You are literally the only person I have ever heard use the word tiny to describe Watkins. Google Watkins and tiny together and see if you get lots of hits. This may confirm for you that nobody else shares this position.

Your comparison of Evans to the top contemporary size/speed WRs is off the mark if he is missing the speed part of the equation.

The advantage to a Torry Holt or Marvin Harrison over a relatively more lumbering WR that struggled to get separation at times in college, and may to an even greater degree against NFL DBs with superior speed, talent and athleticism, is that the traits and attributes of Holt and Harrison rendered 50/50 ball skills moot, if they were routinely wide open.

You are IMO grossly underestimating Holt in calling him "damn fine", but not as worthy of a top 10 pick as Evans. Holt (and Harrison and Wayne, etc.) put up borderline Hall of Fame numbers.

You didn't mention Roddy White. He is 6'0" 215 lbs. No NFL WR has more receiving yards since 2007. Is he elite? If you don't think he is elite, with all due respect, how useful is your categorization/classificatory scheme if it can't account for or find a place to include a WR that puts up elite numbers like White?

I didn't say they weren't great receivers, and statistically they are indeed elite. Damn fine about covers it.

What they are not and were not is today's protypical WR that is never covered.

I'll keep trying to draw this back to Evans vs. Watkins and Lee. I see Evans being the "harder to find" weapon. I am not in any way doubting Watkins will be a great WR.

If Roddy White is a fair comp for Watkins, than that could shed light on the relative merits of using a top 10 pick on Watkins vs. Evans. Would you use a top 10 pick on a 21-22 year old Roddy White in 2014? If not, just recognize that would almost certainly be an extreme outlier position (like a small fraction of 1%), which kind of scuttles your premise. You didn't address it yet, so that could be an important clarification point, but again, Evans is not Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Josh Gordon, Dez Bryant or Demaryius Thomas. He doesn't have their speed, and that is a critically important omission in your analysis. If you are trying to use them as comps, it is a non-starter. He is a slower Vincent Jackson, and that isn't Vincent Jackson.As long as by calling Holt, Harrison and Wayne "damn fine" you mean elite* and Hall of Fame worthy, than we are talking about the same thing, though personally I think your terminology isn't as clear or precise and could be more subject to misinterpretation than just saying elite or Hall of Fame worthy? But I wouldn't want to put too fine a point on that.

Evans was covered all the time in the last few games, which explains his production falling off. Since he isn't as fast as the other WRs you seem to keep wanting to put him in the same category with, this makes his NFL projection more uncertain, which you are glossing over, and why I think you will find out Watkins will be picked first in the NFL draft, respectfully and in my opinion.

* Holt, Harrison and Wayne weren't elite STATISTICALLY due to some kind of fluke. They had elite production because they are elite. Maybe the fault in getting this point across is mine, but if Holt and Harrison due to their superior OVERALL constellation of WR traits and attributes, physical ability, talent, athleticism, skills and route running ability (despite lack of elite size) allows them to routinely get wide open, that renders the ability of a hulking WR to win his share of 50/50 balls superfluous and moot.

 

[Bob Magaw]

After Manziel and Watkins performances in the bowl games I've tweeked an early top-ten projection.

1. Houston Texans

QB Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M

Johnny Football appears to have surpassed Bridgewater IMHO. I think we will see this projected more going forward.

　

2. Atlanta Falcons (from St. Louis via Washington)

DE Jadeveon Clowney, South Carolina

TRADE* Clowney is the BPA of the draft. Atlanta moving-up and St. Louis moving down makes sense and could happen. I don't think anyone moves up for a QB but would for Clowney if some team checks off on the character issues.

　

3. Jacksonville Jaguars

QB Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville

Jacksonville gets one of the two franchise quarterbacks of this class.

　

4. Cleveland Browns

WR Sammy Watkins, Clemson

Their is a drop-off after the first two QBs. Watkins is a WR Justin Blackmon type of receiving talent without the JB character issues. The Browns probably can get a second-tier QB later in the first or even in the second round.

　

5. Oakland Raiders

DE Khalil Mack, Buffalo

Mack looks like he will be a great pass rusher. Like Cleveland, Oakland can't bypass taking a sure blue-chip prospect like Mack and they would think a QB would be there for them in the second round.

6. St. Louis Rams

OT Jake Matthews, Texas A&M

Rams get the guy they wanted plus extras.

　

7. Tampa Bay Buccaneers

OLB Anthony Barr, UCLA

Solid player, Bucs could use upgrade at pass rush, Barr looks like he will be a very good pass rusher.

　

8. Minnesota Vikings

QB Blake Bortles, Central Florida

Bortles was considered a second round pick recently so this seems like a reach but he's rising and the Vikings can't sit tight with Cassel and Ponder. They a QB and his stock will rise so what looks like paying a premium now may turn into a bargain later.

　

9. Buffalo Bills

OT Taylor Lewan, Michigan

BPA sitting atop the board. Too good to pass up.

　

10. Detroit Lions

CB Darqueze Dennard, Michigan State

Long standing need meets BPA.

It is interesting to think of the possible permutations in the top 5-10, especially that might involve trades for QBs. Hundley, as expected, has opted to return to UCLA next season. Bortles, who I think is generally expected to declare (recently given a first round grade by the advisory committee), should be the next key piece to the puzzle at the top of the draft.

We have talked about it before Bracie, but there could an approximately "right number" of QBs that could facilitate and be conducive to trade opportunities for teams at the top (with possible/probable early prohibitive favorite for #1 overall pick Bridgewater, adding Bortles and Manziel would comprise three potential top 3-5 overall QBs). None or one being sub-optimal of course, but with 4-5 conversely probably too many, as it could encourage teams past the top 3 to just wait for one to fall in their laps. Currently, STL is the only team in the top five not expected to be looking for a QB (just passing along information from many STL observers, even including statements by Fisher and Snead, but there is always the possibility this disinformation and a smoke screen?).

HOU is in challenging position if they covet one of the top 2-3 QBs. Of course, if Bridgewater impresses in tests and drills and nails the interview phase of the process, they probably should just best stay put. I think it is more likely than not they pick a QB with the #1 pick. They had injuries to Cushing and Foster, but it seemed like the wheels really came off when Schaub's play rapidly deteriorated. With a QB of the future, they already have some other pieces in place for a quick turnaround (KC set a great example in 2013 for what is possible for a recently underachieving team with some core talent after adding a competent HC and QB). The new HC should have virtually no pressure in 2014 (as long as HOU doesn't go something like 2-14 again and shows no progress). The team should improve next year even if they opted to not take a QB, and if they decide in retrospect they should have taken Bridgewater, they may not be in a position like this to land a potential top QB in the class-type for a long time. So the stars seem aligned for such a move. The problem is, unless they make someting like a minimal, surgical, two slot move to like 1.3 with JAX, if they were to drop just one pick further to 1.4 (CLE), that could leave them at risk to getting aced out of landing one of the top three QBs... the team trading into the one slot would likely be looking for a QB. STL will probably be actively shopping the 1.2 pick (i don't think they want to drop as far as MIN, but assuming for the purposes here that HOU had traded with CLE already, a possible move to 1.5 might be perfect if OAK is looking to move up, especially if STL is OK with Watkins or Matthews. of course JAX could be looking for a QB. So CLE could be playing a dangerous game, IMO, if they want a QB but trade down too far.

1 - HOU... Bridgewater (or Bortles or even Manziel?).

2 - CLE (trade with STL)... Bortles (or Bridgewater in the unlikely event HOU passes, or Manziel). They could go in a lot of different directions, and may stay pat and take Watkins, and look for a QB later. IMO, though, they dealt Richardson to afford the flexibility of EXACTLY this kind of move. Gordon might be the best WR in the league (he outplayed Calvin Johnson in his 14 starts), they have a talented young TE, traded for slot WR Bess, and Little still flashes at times, could be salvageable with a QB upgrade? If they don't trade up, Watkins could make a lot of sense at 1.4 if avail, that would probably be the best young tandem in the league. I could QB that team to the playoffs.

3 - JAX... Clowney (or the remainder of Bortles/Manziel)... Clowney could be the #1 overall pick in some years, and is unlikely to fall too much further than this (though if they do opt for a QB, he could be officially in full blown free fall mode, and could drop all the way to OAK or ATL). JAX recently whiffed on a top 10 QB with catastrophic, disastrous consequences, Bradley is a HC with a defensive background, who came from SEA, where the team found a winning strategy by getting off the beaten path QB russell wilson in the third round. They have a high second and third rounder (?).

4 - STL (see above)... Watkins (or Matthews). Naturally they would like to trade down (unless they decide they HAVE to have either Watkins or Matthews, which I don't expect?), as these would probably be the same choices if they don't execute a trade down and pick from 1.2... much like in 2014, when they traded down with DAL from 1.6 and took DT Brockers in the mid-first, but claimed they still would have taken him at 1.6 if they hadn't been able to trade down. What would STL get. Snead already said he would prefer to add a 2015 first. In this scenario, CLE moves up, gets their QB of the future and still retains their second first rounder in 2014, the IND pick for Richardson.

5 - OAK... remainder of Bortles/Manziel/Carr (or Clowney). IMO, the HC, if he survives, has to know they need to upgrade at QB or he won't last past 2014. Could be another candidate to move up, though that could be moving in the wrong direction for a team with many holes. If this plays out, and JAX takes Clowney, a QB could fall to them anyways.

6 - ATL... Matthews (if avail, Clowney in the unlikely event he falls this far, otherwise possibly Barr or a LT like Robinson, if he declares - DE and LT seem to be the two most obvious positions of need).

7 - TB... Watkins (or Matthews or Barr, possibly a different LT, Penn getting up there in years and didn't play at as high a level in 2013).

8 - MIN... Carr (or Barr, if either are avail, Jared Allen aging, not sure if 2013 was his last year with the Vikings... if Vikings are the last team standing in the game of QB musical chairs, almost certainly defense, have their LT, set at RB and WR, wouldn't take a RT or interior OL this high or a TE... maybe DT, Kevin Williams also on his last legs, LB Mack [[Mosley unlikely to carry a top 10 grade?]], no safety worthy of this high a pick, could point to top CB Dennard).

9 - BUF... LT, best avail (nearly every mock has BUF paired up almost by default with local product Mack, but they got Rookie Defensive Player of the Year candidate [[though likely to be won by NYJ DL Sheldon Richardson]] Kiko Alonso in the second round, the same round emerging stars Lavonte David, Bobby Wagner and Maychal Kendricks came from in 2012, also good looking rookie Alec Ogletree went in the late first round). They lost some OL talent in the past few years, and have a lot invested in QB Manuel and the WR corp, Spiller could be a star if healthy, they already have some pieces in place for a strong defense with the DL. They may try and re-sign FS Byrd (?), which would strengthen the secondary, and they have a talented CB who was injured in 2013.

10 - DET... Dennard (if avail, maybe OL, WR complement to Calvin Johnson could make sense, maybe LB like Mosley that could be heir apparent at MLB to no longer young Tulloch).

 

[Houston turmOiler]

Ive wondered if Houston could get enough in a trade back with Cleveland then move back up to STL spot. That would allow CLE to grab Bridgewater and HOU Manziel or vice versa....and allow HOU and STL to net an extra pick potentially. Seems pretty dicey unless there was precedent for an NBA style 3 way trade....

Although listening to O'Brien and how he seems to really value football IQ I think Bridgewater is going to impress him as they go through the evaluation process...

 

[Bob Magaw]

Ive wondered if Houston could get enough in a trade back with Cleveland then move back up to STL spot. That would allow CLE to grab Bridgewater and HOU Manziel or vice versa. Seems pretty dicey unless there was precedent for an NBA style 3 way trade....

Although listening to O'Brien and how he seems to really value football IQ I think Bridgewater is going to impress him as they go through the evaluation process...

Agreed. Bridgewater has some attendant level of competition concerns, but he really impressed against Miami in the bowl game. QBs that are smart, hard working, students of the game, have leadership traits and other intangibles, can make all the throws and are extremely accurate don't grow on trees. IMO, there is a high degree of liklihood that they don't horse around with a trade down, there are just too many other teams in the top five also in need of a QB that could be in striking range to trade ahead of them and snipe them, to make this an acceptable risk. The only question to me is which QB? I think it will be Bridgewater in the end.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

LT to the Bills doesn't make much sense to me. Cordy Glenn seems pretty locked in there.

 

[Houston turmOiler]

Ive wondered if Houston could get enough in a trade back with Cleveland then move back up to STL spot. That would allow CLE to grab Bridgewater and HOU Manziel or vice versa. Seems pretty dicey unless there was precedent for an NBA style 3 way trade....

Although listening to O'Brien and how he seems to really value football IQ I think Bridgewater is going to impress him as they go through the evaluation process...

Agreed. Bridgewater has some attendant level of competition concerns, but he really impressed against Miami in the bowl game. QBs that are smart, hard working, students of the game, have leadership traits and other intangibles, can make all the throws and are extremely accurate don't grow on trees. IMO, there is a high degree of liklihood that they don't horse around with a trade down, there are just too many other teams in the top five also in need of a QB that could be in striking range to trade ahead of them and snipe them, to make this an acceptable risk. The only question to me is which QB? I think it will be Bridgewater in the end.

Down here on local radio they've been playing cuts from some coaching clinic O'Brien gave....specifically about how he grills his QBs in meetings and how they must know every assignment inside out. He also says he wants to run a "game plan specific" system so that tells me his QB is going to need to be an extension of him on the field. Not discounting every other QB's ability to do that in this draft but there are lots of reports stating that Bridgewater is a film room junkie. I think that will make him a great fit along with his other skills over a guy like Manziel (who I would also be excited about personally). Bridgewater seems like the kind of guys who lives and breathes football and an O'Brien kind of guy. Not sure O'Brien would rather deal with a guy ready to go hang out with Drake and live it up at times (although I think JFF cares and works harder than some believe)....

 

[Bob Magaw]

LT to the Bills doesn't make much sense to me. Cordy Glenn seems pretty locked in there.

Forgot about him, maybe interior OL later? Do you like the ubiquitous Mack linkage? The idea of a WR? Any word on if they intend to re-sign Byrd (thought I read this recently?).

 

[Late225]

What's the latest word out of Browns camp? I assumed QB or bust with their first pick based on rhetoric over the course of the season.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

LT to the Bills doesn't make much sense to me. Cordy Glenn seems pretty locked in there.

Forgot about him, maybe interior OL later? Do you like the ubiquitous Mack linkage? The idea of a WR? Any word on if they intend to re-sign Byrd (thought I read this recently?).

I think there's little chance they will give Byrd the contract he wants. Too much money for a non-premium position. Franchise tag is an option but is also expensive and could lead to another holdout. Not sure but I think they might try to trade him.

They need a guard but not in the 1st round. I guess if they drafted a LT they could move Glenn to the RT spot.

Maybe another trade down for them makes sense, but I'd love to see them get Mack. I want a dominant defense.

 

[Bob Magaw]

LT to the Bills doesn't make much sense to me. Cordy Glenn seems pretty locked in there.

Forgot about him, maybe interior OL later? Do you like the ubiquitous Mack linkage? The idea of a WR? Any word on if they intend to re-sign Byrd (thought I read this recently?).

I think there's little chance they will give Byrd the contract he wants. Too much money for a non-premium position. Franchise tag is an option but is also expensive and could lead to another holdout. Not sure but I think they might try to trade him.

They need a guard but not in the 1st round. I guess if they drafted a LT they could move Glenn to the RT spot.

Maybe another trade down for them makes sense, but I'd love to see them get Mack. I want a dominant defense.

Does Glenn have top 10 potential at his position, I know less about OL than skill positions and impact defensive positions around the league.RT not usually picked high, but Fluker went near there for SD (LTs gone), and that seemed like a good ROI for their pick. He has the potential to be a dominant run blocker (if he isn't already). Lewan might a more natural RT. Robinson could have huge upside at LT, but play on the right side initially (also a dominant run blocker, somewhat untested in pass pro), he could be gone by their pick. Mack could be gone, too, though he should probably be there unless a team covets him more than Barr (in which case maybe he could be an option, lot of upside, tremendous athlete that was a RB until recently).

Mack broke the NCAA record for TFL. Sounded like he did well the few times he played big schools, I haven't heard any scouts note level of competition concerns?

* Wonder what happens if no team gives Byrd the lucrative, long term contract he seeks? Like you said, it isn't a premium position (like CB). Whether signed by another team or re-signed by BUF, seems like his recent injury history complicates reckoning his value fairly. Has he had chronic plantar fasciitis for more than a year? STL will have a similar hard decision to make with Saffold, who has been hurt a lot in his rookie contract. His situation is also complicated in that his best position is non-premium guard, but he may want to be compensated like a LT. If he gets a big offer, I'd say he is gone, but it would be nice to keep him around as Jake Long insurance (unless they draft a Matthews or Robinson - and even than, he was looking like he could be a very good guard, possibly great).

 

[Donnybrook]

FYI

Paul Tenorio ‏@osknights

UCF QB Blake Bortles to declare for NFL draft, according to source. Official announcement expected Monday http://bit.ly/19Y5Rsj

 

[Bob Magaw]

FYI

Paul Tenorio ‏@osknights

UCF QB Blake Bortles to declare for NFL draft, according to source. Official announcement expected Monday http://bit.ly/19Y5Rsj

Thanks, Donnybrook...

Outstanding news.

My preferred STL draft.

Trade down from 1.2 to 1.4, add a second and third, draft Watkins.

Trade up from 1.13 to about 1.9 (flipping with BUF again, costing the high third), draft LT Robinson.

Come out of the first round with Watkins and Robinson, still have two seconds and a third. Maybe guard like Richardson/Yankey and safety like Pryor with the second round picks, positions like QB, RB, CB & LB in the third and fourth.

 

[RUSF18]

Ive wondered if Houston could get enough in a trade back with Cleveland then move back up to STL spot. That would allow CLE to grab Bridgewater and HOU Manziel or vice versa. Seems pretty dicey unless there was precedent for an NBA style 3 way trade....

Although listening to O'Brien and how he seems to really value football IQ I think Bridgewater is going to impress him as they go through the evaluation process...

Agreed. Bridgewater has some attendant level of competition concerns, but he really impressed against Miami in the bowl game. QBs that are smart, hard working, students of the game, have leadership traits and other intangibles, can make all the throws and are extremely accurate don't grow on trees. IMO, there is a high degree of liklihood that they don't horse around with a trade down, there are just too many other teams in the top five also in need of a QB that could be in striking range to trade ahead of them and snipe them, to make this an acceptable risk. The only question to me is which QB? I think it will be Bridgewater in the end.

In 2012 (actually 2013 Sugar Bowl), Bridgewater did a very nice job against the #1 defense in the country in Florida (by Football Outsiders ranking) going 20-32 for 266 yards, 2 TDs, INT.

He also got his team into a BCS game with a win over the #7 defense (Rutgers) in the last game of the season, going 20-28 for 263/2/1 and all while doing this on ONE LEG and with a BROKEN WRIST.

 

[Quez]

7 - TB... Watkins (or Matthews or Barr, possibly a different LT, Penn getting up there in years and didn't play at as high a level in 2013).

I don't think that Watkins will be there, but this would be a great pick for the leagues worst offense. He is flexible enough to play any WR position and gives Glennon a weapon.

OT is another strong possibility, but I see a big drop off after Matthews, and he is likely to be gone by #7 as well.

DE is also a huge need, but I don't know if anyone besides Clowney is a great fit at DE. I would think that Lovie would bring more of a traditional 4-3, so they may not want a OLB/DE like Mack or Barr.

Manziel & Bridgewater will probably be gone by #7, but Bortles could be an option if they new staff doesn't love Glennon.

 

[Grahamburn]

7 - TB... Watkins (or Matthews or Barr, possibly a different LT, Penn getting up there in years and didn't play at as high a level in 2013).

I don't think that Watkins will be there, but this would be a great pick for the leagues worst offense. He is flexible enough to play any WR position and gives Glennon a weapon.

OT is another strong possibility, but I see a big drop off after Matthews, and he is likely to be gone by #7 as well.

DE is also a huge need, but I don't know if anyone besides Clowney is a great fit at DE. I would think that Lovie would bring more of a traditional 4-3, so they may not want a OLB/DE like Mack or Barr.

Manziel & Bridgewater will probably be gone by #7, but Bortles could be an option if they new staff doesn't love Glennon.

I prefer Watkins. The Bucs are either in a great spot or a horrible one. If they have to choose one of these landmine QBs I'll be disappointed. I'm hoping Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles are all gone by the 7th pick.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

I know that NFL players generally always play to win and couldn't give a rat's ### about draft position, but the Vikes really shot themselves in the foot at the end of the season. Their best bet is to hope Mariota changes his mind so maybe Bortles or Manziel drops to them.

 

[pantherclub]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

Didnt they do that as well in 2012? They won the last game and let St Louis have 2nd?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

Didnt they do that as well in 2012? They won the last game and let St Louis have 2nd?

Yes. If they'd have lost that last game to Washington they'd have been in the #2 position and been able to draft Griffin.

 

[Slapdash]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

Better to fight for a win than give up for a better draft pick IMO.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

Better to fight for a win than give up for a better draft pick IMO.

Of course. You can't and shouldn't ask guys on this team to tank for next year's. Guys get paid to play and professionals play their best every game.

Doesn't change the fact that they screwed next year's team.

I see Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles all being gone and them feeling like they have to take Carr, which sounds like Ponder 2.0 to me. Yuck.

 

[JohnnyU]

Watkins is 6'1", not 6' or bellow.

So is Blackmon... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

I don't know how many ways I can say it.. I guess people would rather argue about Watkins than talk about the value of size among top receivers coming out. Have at it.

You've referred to him multiple times now as a 6' WR.

And I would again. I've said all along I'd take the under on his listed height.

Bottom line he is average at best in height. Which brings back the topic.

Or we could keep doing this I guess.. nothing else to do for a bit.

Jerry Rice was 6' 2"

 

[Quez]

7 - TB... Watkins (or Matthews or Barr, possibly a different LT, Penn getting up there in years and didn't play at as high a level in 2013).

I don't think that Watkins will be there, but this would be a great pick for the leagues worst offense. He is flexible enough to play any WR position and gives Glennon a weapon.

OT is another strong possibility, but I see a big drop off after Matthews, and he is likely to be gone by #7 as well.

DE is also a huge need, but I don't know if anyone besides Clowney is a great fit at DE. I would think that Lovie would bring more of a traditional 4-3, so they may not want a OLB/DE like Mack or Barr.

Manziel & Bridgewater will probably be gone by #7, but Bortles could be an option if they new staff doesn't love Glennon.

I prefer Watkins. The Bucs are either in a great spot or a horrible one. If they have to choose one of these landmine QBs I'll be disappointed. I'm hoping Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles are all gone by the 7th pick.

I'm worried Tedford may convince Lovie to draft Derek Carr.

 

[Slapdash]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

Better to fight for a win than give up for a better draft pick IMO.

Of course. You can't and shouldn't ask guys on this team to tank for next year's. Guys get paid to play and professionals play their best every game.

Doesn't change the fact that they screwed next year's team.

I see Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles all being gone and them feeling like they have to take Carr, which sounds like Ponder 2.0 to me. Yuck.

What about trading up?

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

The Carroll County Times suggests the Ravens could look at wide receiver in the first round of May's draft.

With Dennis Pitta injured, the offensive line crumbling and Ray Rice a shell of himself, the Ravens offense went in the tank far too often this season. Getting Torrey Smith a real complement would be a big boost for Joe Flacco. The Times suggests Clemson's Sammy Watkins, Texas A&M's Mike Evans and USC's Marqise Lee as possible targets when the Ravens pick either 16th or 17th (depending on a coin flip with the Cowboys). Marlon Brown is not a projected 2014 starter.


Source: Carroll County Times

 

[GregR]

Updated the draft order in the OP for wildcard weekend results, and also added a couple of links to underclassmen that have declared.

If you guys have links to sites with player evaluations that you think are worthwhile, post them and I'll include them in the OP.

 

[Grahamburn]

7 - TB... Watkins (or Matthews or Barr, possibly a different LT, Penn getting up there in years and didn't play at as high a level in 2013).

I don't think that Watkins will be there, but this would be a great pick for the leagues worst offense. He is flexible enough to play any WR position and gives Glennon a weapon.

OT is another strong possibility, but I see a big drop off after Matthews, and he is likely to be gone by #7 as well.

DE is also a huge need, but I don't know if anyone besides Clowney is a great fit at DE. I would think that Lovie would bring more of a traditional 4-3, so they may not want a OLB/DE like Mack or Barr.

Manziel & Bridgewater will probably be gone by #7, but Bortles could be an option if they new staff doesn't love Glennon.

I prefer Watkins. The Bucs are either in a great spot or a horrible one. If they have to choose one of these landmine QBs I'll be disappointed. I'm hoping Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles are all gone by the 7th pick.

I'm worried Tedford may convince Lovie to draft Derek Carr.

There is plenty of mediocre available at the position this year. No need to take any of it with the 7th pick.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

Better to fight for a win than give up for a better draft pick IMO.

Of course. You can't and shouldn't ask guys on this team to tank for next year's. Guys get paid to play and professionals play their best every game.

Doesn't change the fact that they screwed next year's team.

I see Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles all being gone and them feeling like they have to take Carr, which sounds like Ponder 2.0 to me. Yuck.

What about trading up?

Depends on the cost, I suppose. I wouldn't want them to do a Washington for Griffin type deal. Which is what I think they'd have to do because they'd have to move to #2 ahead of Jacksonville, Cleveland, and Oakland in order to get either Manziel or Bortles. I can't imagine them taking Bortles at #2.

 

[Slapdash]

Damn did the 2013 Vikings screw the 2014 Vikings.

Better to fight for a win than give up for a better draft pick IMO.

Of course. You can't and shouldn't ask guys on this team to tank for next year's. Guys get paid to play and professionals play their best every game.

Doesn't change the fact that they screwed next year's team.

I see Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles all being gone and them feeling like they have to take Carr, which sounds like Ponder 2.0 to me. Yuck.

What about trading up?

Depends on the cost, I suppose. I wouldn't want them to do a Washington for Griffin type deal. Which is what I think they'd have to do because they'd have to move to #2 ahead of Jacksonville, Cleveland, and Oakland in order to get either Manziel or Bortles. I can't imagine them taking Bortles at #2.

May have to go after a veteran and just pick up the BPA then...I don't think any of these QBs are worth a ransom to get.

 

[Village Idiot]

FYI

Paul Tenorio ‏@osknights

UCF QB Blake Bortles to declare for NFL draft, according to source. Official announcement expected Monday http://bit.ly/19Y5Rsj

Thanks, Donnybrook...

Outstanding news.

My preferred STL draft.

Trade down from 1.2 to 1.4, add a second and third, draft Watkins.

Trade up from 1.13 to about 1.9 (flipping with BUF again, costing the high third), draft LT Robinson.

Come out of the first round with Watkins and Robinson, still have two seconds and a third. Maybe guard like Richardson/Yankey and safety like Pryor with the second round picks, positions like QB, RB, CB & LB in the third and fourth.

If the Browns make that trade to go up to 1.2 to take Bortles I will be very unhappy.

What concerns me about Bortles is his accuracy. NFL passing windows are much tighter than college windows.

I'd prefer the Browns take Watkins at 1.4, if he is still there.

If Bridgewater by some ridiculous circumstance fell to 1.4 I'd prefer him but if not, please not Bortles.

If the Browns go up to 1.2 because Bridgewater is still on the board then that intrigues me.