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Ben Tate (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Proximo
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RUSF18
Footballguy
I own both Foster and Tate. Optimally, I want Foster to be the starter. This is the best news for people who are in the same situation as me.
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Insoxicated
packersfan
Footballguy
Huge swing and a miss. I don't own either guy.jesus... tate owners are getting out of hand
JKL
Footballguy
This. All this system talk, because people paint with such broad brushes. EVERY PLAYER IS A PRODUCT OF THE SYSTEM THEY PLAY IN. That doesn't mean some don't improve the system.Here are the combined yards from scrimmage numbers and TD numbers of the top 3 backs for Houston since Kubiak became coach:<pre>2006 Dayne/Lundy/Gado 1666 102007 Dayne/Green/Walker 1613 92008 Slaton/Green/Moats 2093 142009 Slaton/Brown/Moats 1691 152010 Foster/Ward/Slaton 2700 22</pre>Which year stands out as not being like the others? Yes, guys like Slaton and Dayne put up relatively good numbers despite being middling talents, which suggests this is an offensive system that is running back friendly. None of them came remotely close to having 2200 yards from scrimmage and 18 TD's like Foster, collectively let alone individually. It's as idiotic as people using Olandis Gary to belittle Terrell Davis. So far this year, with Tate as the lead, playing with the lead more than last year (6-10 a year ago), the Houston backs (Tate + Ward/Foster) are at 125 yards from scrimmage. Tate has 1 fumble through 51 touches. The only thing he leads 2010 Foster in is carries per game, as he leads the league through 2 games with 47. It's a small number of games, but so far, I would say a healthy Foster > Tate.If I'm the Texans, Foster rests until he's right. Tate may not be healthy anyway if he continues to lead in rush attempts coming off an injury last year. IF Foster gets healthy, it becomes more of a committee situation, but I think 65/35 Foster to Tate. I could see that varying, depending on if Tate's fumble was a fluke or if he continues to fumble at a higher rate than Foster did in 2010. Both can be viable fantasy starters in a committee if the Texans can approach 2400 YFS and close to 20 TD's out of the running back position.
packersfan
Footballguy
I don't think it's a question of what Foster did last season. He was amazing. I think it's more about whether 1) Can he get and stay healthy and 2) Will the Texans feel the need to keep him healthy by using Tate more? Based on what we've seen thus far, it's not crazy to think Tate will remain involved even if Foster can get healthy and stay healthy the rest of the season. The Texans have their best shot ever to win a division title. If they believe using Tate more to keep Foster healthy is the way to go that's what they're going to do.
I own Foster and do not own Tate. Just for full disclosure. Tate will remain involved when Foster is back as long as he Produces ( has so far) and doesn't resort to fumbling ( he has not). I see a 50-50 ish type workload IF / When Foster returns. if not and its Tates job by himself, Tate is a top 10 back.
The_Underachiever
Footballguy
Agree with this. If Tate is running good, and they can have both run as a tandem, why wouldn't they?
i dont think that is the question at all. the question is, if, and when, foster gets healthy, can he regain the bulk of the clearly ensuing committee, say a 60-40 role.
packersfan
Footballguy
That's what I was saying with No. 2.
If Foster's healthy, will the Texans go back to giving him 25 or touches a game or will they use Tate more to keep Foster healthy?i guess we are saying the same thing, but basing it on different interpretations. you think they might mainly utilize tate to keep foster healthy. i think they will mainly utilize tate bc they actually prefer him as a runner.
i think that 25 touches is a complete pipe dream for foster owners and only occurs if tate goes down. i think the best they can hope for is a 60/40 split in fosters favor, along with most passing action and a goal line split. should be enough for mid range rb2.
i think that 25 touches is a complete pipe dream for foster owners and only occurs if tate goes down. i think the best they can hope for is a 60/40 split in fosters favor, along with most passing action and a goal line split. should be enough for mid range rb2.
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packersfan
Footballguy
Yeah, we are coming to the same conclusion from different perspectives.
I haven't seen enough from Tate yet that leads me to believe he's better than Foster. He's been damn good but Foster was amazing last season. I do think Tate has shown enough to have carved out a sizeable role offensively even if Foster can get healthy. I also agree a 60-40 split may be the best Foster owners can hope for barring more injuries in the backfield. I don't see Tate going away at this point unless he gets hurt or massively screws up.
JKL
Footballguy
As I posted above, the Texans had 2700 YFS from scrimmage and 22 TD's from their top 3 backs. Foster had over 80% of the running back production. Even if he was at 65%, you know where he would have ranked? 1st.At 50%, he would have been 14th.Now, we can regress those numbers back a bit, but they will be better than when they had Slaton and Dayne and were producing 1600 to 2000 YFS per year. For one, they will probably be leading more than they have most years.If it is a 65 to 35 split, the 65% portion of the platoon will likely be about RB5, and the 35% would be good enough to be about RB25. If it is a 50/50, both would be in the RB15 range.Now, the big IF is whether Foster gets healthy or Tate stays healthy. If I'm a Foster owner, I want him to get better so he has a better chance of emerging as the 65% portion.
I agree with this, but did you see the post I responded to? He said Moats, Dayne, Slaton and Tate have had similar success in that system, which isn't even close to being true.
We Tigers
Footballguy
Why do you believe either of these things? I feel like anyone who's actually watched the Texans' games this year and last year--which I know is probably very few of you--would realize that Tate is not quite yet in Foster's class as an NFL performer. He's good, certainly, but why would the Texans "prefer him as a runner" if, you know, he wasn't the starter, and hasn't produced as well as Foster did for them? Similarly, why would anyone expect 25 touches for Foster to be a pipe dream upon his return? The Texans are pounding the ball like crazy this year and it's working out for them; they have 53 pass attempts on the year to 77 rushes, 71 of which are from the RB. That's over 57% run plays to the RBs! Huge numbers. They'll top 500 rushing attempts this year easily, and probably more.
Having watched both guys play extensively, I don't think a 50/50 split would make sense--I expect Foster to still see more of the work--but even in that condition you're looking at a pair of backs who are likely to carry the ball 15 times apiece every game, to say nothing of receptions. I don't know in what universe a 15-carry-a-game back who gets most of the third down work is a "midrange RB2." I own both players in several leagues, so I'm not exactly speaking from a position of bias here.
i believe "those things" bc they are straight from kubiaks mouth. namely that tate will carry the load in the near future and that he believes in rewarding players that take advantage of their opportunities. i fully expect tate to continue to flourish behind the best run blocking line and scheme in the nfl. its not a matter of 2011 tate vs 2010 foster, that is meaningless. its 2011 tate vs 2011 foster and tate has crushed in the coaches eyes.
Chaka
Footballguy
I don't disagree but I am not certain you cited the correct post to support your contention.Barring injury do you see a worse downside than 10 touches/game for Tate after Foster gets back?
We Tigers
Footballguy
So you basically think that 2011 Foster won't be anything like 2010 Foster after he heals up--or that he won't ever heal up. Fair enough--I think that's very unlikely, but that makes your stance comprehensible.
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Insoxicated
Is it wrong to project Tate to average in the range of 8-12 carries a game foster is back to full strength? A bit ambitious but not too crazy. Is it reasonable to consider 10 carries a game as his WORST-CASE when foster averaged just 20 carries as the every-down back last year? I think that's a bit absurd IMO.I don't disagree but I am not certain you cited the correct post to support your contention.Barring injury do you see a worse downside than 10 touches/game for Tate after Foster gets back?
I'd say downside of 5-6 carries... likely in the 7-9 range.
But it takes all types. Glll with that.
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Insoxicated
Of course it is.
FLY IGGLES FLY
Footballguy
How many waiver bucks do you typically get in 6 team leagues?
Statler & Waldorf
Footballguy
I don't think it'll turn into a rbbc. Kubiak even said so himself. I know this is old, but this is from Rotoworld on August 23rd:
Despite Ben Tate's big game in the second week of preseason, coach Gary Kubiak confirmed Tuesday that Arian Foster remains the Texans' every-down running back.
"One thing about the running back position, when you have a great one, they need it 25 times," said Kubiak. "For the most part, when Arian’s at his best, he’s playing three snaps to the other guys' one." Tate could add a powerful change-of-pace off the bench, but he isn't a candidate for more than six carries a game. We don't even know if he's overtaken Derrick Ward for the No. 2 running back job. Foster is safely locked in as a top-two fantasy pick.
Now considering the way Tate is playing....and the fact that Houston is winning with him.....I don't know if it'll go back to Foster or if he'll stay with Tate. I just think one of them will get the bulk going forward. If I had to put money on it, I'd say Foster, but if Tate blows up this week and they win against NO, then things could get interesting.
Despite Ben Tate's big game in the second week of preseason, coach Gary Kubiak confirmed Tuesday that Arian Foster remains the Texans' every-down running back.
"One thing about the running back position, when you have a great one, they need it 25 times," said Kubiak. "For the most part, when Arian’s at his best, he’s playing three snaps to the other guys' one." Tate could add a powerful change-of-pace off the bench, but he isn't a candidate for more than six carries a game. We don't even know if he's overtaken Derrick Ward for the No. 2 running back job. Foster is safely locked in as a top-two fantasy pick.
Now considering the way Tate is playing....and the fact that Houston is winning with him.....I don't know if it'll go back to Foster or if he'll stay with Tate. I just think one of them will get the bulk going forward. If I had to put money on it, I'd say Foster, but if Tate blows up this week and they win against NO, then things could get interesting.
Otis
Footballguy
Which of them is swinging and missing?Huge swing and a miss. I don't own either guy.
Darryl Talley
Footballguy
Does NO have a good run defense?
Otis
Footballguy
A lot changes in a month in the NFL.
packersfan
Footballguy
Anyone drawing a conclusion without the basis of any facts whatsoever. Back on topic, Foster averaged 24.6 touches per game last season. Assuming he gets healthy and stays healthy, I'm not sure he gets that type of workload this season given what Tate has shown. I think it all boils down to the fact Foster has the type of injury that tends to linger and can be re-aggravated quickly. We've seen that already. The Texans can call it what they want but something happened last Sunday which caused Foster to go from being the feature RB to standing on the sidelines for the entire second half. So in the first game he played Foster couldn't play the entire game. Why would Houston run the risk of losing him again should he get back to full health? Seems to me, the prudent move would be to protect Foster and use the other RB who has been playing lights out so far. That way, you keep your starter healthy and you don't sacrifice anything in your attempt to finally get to the playoffs.I have no idea what Kubiak will do should Foster get healthy. But I do think there is a prudent course of action that seems a logical direction for him to take. Should he go that route, I think you'd be looking at around a 60-40 split in Foster's favor. And if that's the breakdown, then Tate is looking at the 10 touches per game I cited earlier as his potential floor. Of course, all of this is predicated on Foster getting healthy and staying healthy. And as of Week 3 it's anybody's guess when that will happen or if that will happen.Which of them is swinging and missing?Huge swing and a miss. I don't own either guy.
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Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
When foster is healthy I bet they share the ball 60-40, and Foster or Tate gets traded in the off season.. assuming they both finish the season w/o a season ending injury.
They need 2 strong healthy backs, who have proven something during the season in order to get value in trade. Not saying this is the plan, but I'm betting it's in the cards..
They need 2 strong healthy backs, who have proven something during the season in order to get value in trade. Not saying this is the plan, but I'm betting it's in the cards..
Tate owners are becoming completely delusional.... Folks, Tate has had two good games in a row. Good, not great. Nothing spectatular about them, in fantasy or real football terms. He has run through the nice holes his line provided for him, and proved to be an adequate receiver and blocker (his weak points). In no way, shape or form has he done anything remotely deserving of an equal time share, or even a lesser member of a RBBC.
FACT: last year, despite Tate being drafted high and expected to become the starter, Foster was clearly the better runner and the unquestioned starter BEFORE Tate's injury. Even before Foster's breakout success, Tate was looking at being perhaps a change of pace back. After Foster's incredible season, and an NFL rushing title, it's incomprehensible to me that people are suggesting he could lose his job after a few games, due to injury, to someone who hasn't done anything outstanding whatsoever. I could maybe see getting unduly excited if Tate had set a new NFL single game rushing record or something, or maybe scored a record 8 TDS in a game, but averaging just under 110 ypg with a single TD is hardly earth shattering production.
As a Foster owner, of course I'm concerned about my top fantasy player. I'm not worried about Tate outperforming him, however. I don't completely trust Kubiak, and think he has dubious loyalty towards his players, but when Foster is healthy, is he honestly assesses the situation, there is no question that Foster is the superior talent.
FACT: last year, despite Tate being drafted high and expected to become the starter, Foster was clearly the better runner and the unquestioned starter BEFORE Tate's injury. Even before Foster's breakout success, Tate was looking at being perhaps a change of pace back. After Foster's incredible season, and an NFL rushing title, it's incomprehensible to me that people are suggesting he could lose his job after a few games, due to injury, to someone who hasn't done anything outstanding whatsoever. I could maybe see getting unduly excited if Tate had set a new NFL single game rushing record or something, or maybe scored a record 8 TDS in a game, but averaging just under 110 ypg with a single TD is hardly earth shattering production.
As a Foster owner, of course I'm concerned about my top fantasy player. I'm not worried about Tate outperforming him, however. I don't completely trust Kubiak, and think he has dubious loyalty towards his players, but when Foster is healthy, is he honestly assesses the situation, there is no question that Foster is the superior talent.
Otis
Footballguy
NO MORE QUESTIONS!
Silver & Black
Footballguy
I just traded Foster away. I simply don't want to deal with all the mystery and not knowing what his status is, week in and week out. And with a hammy, the thought of it lingering or being an issue all season is just not something I wanted to deal with.
I think Foster is a stud. He is more talented than Tate, and all things being equal, he is just a better all around back. That said, there can be no doubt that the system and superior blocking up front is a contributing factor towards Foster's success as well. Tate has and will continue to reap that benefit while Foster is out. If Tate had looked just ok while Foster was out, I would have held onto Foster. But Tate has looked good. Not studly good, but solid. If and when Foster returns, in my opinion, Tate and Foster will absolutely share carries. Maybe not 50-50 or even 60-40, but they will share carries to keep them both healthy and fresh as Houston strives to win the division and make a run into the playoffs. Everything else you hear from Kubiak is just pure, unadulterated coach speak.
Just my two cents.
And my league is an auction, keeper, ppr league. I traded Foster and Bradshaw for Chris Johnson and Bironas. The Johnson owner is hurting at rb (Woodhead and Pierre Thomas)
I think Foster is a stud. He is more talented than Tate, and all things being equal, he is just a better all around back. That said, there can be no doubt that the system and superior blocking up front is a contributing factor towards Foster's success as well. Tate has and will continue to reap that benefit while Foster is out. If Tate had looked just ok while Foster was out, I would have held onto Foster. But Tate has looked good. Not studly good, but solid. If and when Foster returns, in my opinion, Tate and Foster will absolutely share carries. Maybe not 50-50 or even 60-40, but they will share carries to keep them both healthy and fresh as Houston strives to win the division and make a run into the playoffs. Everything else you hear from Kubiak is just pure, unadulterated coach speak.
Just my two cents.
And my league is an auction, keeper, ppr league. I traded Foster and Bradshaw for Chris Johnson and Bironas. The Johnson owner is hurting at rb (Woodhead and Pierre Thomas)
fightingillini
Footballguy
Exactly. If Tate is that good, HOU is going to find a way to get him involved. You don't keep talent on the sidelines in the NFL. It might suck for us Foster owners, but it's good for HOU as a team, they have 2 good backs that they can use. HOU is likely going to the playoffs, and if you're the Texans, getting Foster 100% healthy is a top priority.Even when Foster is 100% healthy, I see Foster getting 16-20 carries and Tate getting about half of that. I would be suprised if Foster gets 20-25 carries week in and week out.'Otis said:
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Foster and Ward are both OUT today.
Today is the day that Ben Tate takes hold of the starting RB job and never lets go.
Today is the day that Ben Tate takes hold of the starting RB job and never lets go.
I'm faced with the same conundrum, could sit either DMC or CJ2K for Tate. Tate has shown he can handle the load, I don't think the saints will leap out to a huge lead and even if they do Tate had 4 receptions last week. I dont believe Tate is 100% the running back Foster is but dang, hard not to start him. I think he'll see 30 touches this week and knows the importance of this game in his future.
socrates
Footballguy
Interestingly, I am looking at exactly the same dilemma. I am thinking it is crazy. Talk me down!!!
Can't talk ya down, I'm gonna roll with DMC but more because its a friends and family league and I'm stacked everywhere else, any other situation and I'd start Tate, this will really drive the rbbc talk to a frenzy.
LOL I wish I could talk you down, but with Vilma, Ward, and Foster inactive, I think we simply have to start Tate. DMac is a beast, but the Jets D will be primed to shut him down and let Campbell beat them through the air. With Revis and Cromartie on the outside, it affords Ryan the ability to load the box and dare Campbell to beat them. This is probably the only game of the year that I'll bench a healthy McFadden.
