Can T.O. or Moss possibly catch Jerry Rice... (1 Viewer)

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Seems like the story now is the same as it was two years ago. In order to catch Rice, Moss would need to do something over the remainder of his career that no one has ever done before - except Rice.

I think this is a little misleading. Physically, Owens could easily do this as well, and even surpass it. It doesn't appear physically he is slowing down tremendously. He's just such a mental case that he's not going to be able to maximize his performance.

It's 100% completely, literally true: Moss would need to do something no one has ever done before except Jerry Rice. Sure, Owens could do it. But besides Rice, no one else has done it yet. I can't imagine how that's misleading. That's the amazing thing about Jerry Rice - not only did he put up phenomenal TD numbers in his first ten years in the league, he then put up numbers in his second ten years (!) in the league that no one has ever matched. Anyone who ever played the position could have done those things, but only Jerry Rice did.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Seems like the story now is the same as it was two years ago. In order to catch Rice, Moss would need to do something over the remainder of his career that no one has ever done before - except Rice.

I think this is a little misleading. Physically, Owens could easily do this as well, and even surpass it. It doesn't appear physically he is slowing down tremendously. He's just such a mental case that he's not going to be able to maximize his performance.

It's 100% completely, literally true: Moss would need to do something no one has ever done before except Jerry Rice. Sure, Owens could do it. But besides Rice, no one else has done it yet. I can't imagine how that's misleading. That's the amazing thing about Jerry Rice - not only did he put up phenomenal TD numbers in his first ten years in the league, he then put up numbers in his second ten years (!) in the league that no one has ever matched. Anyone who ever played the position could have done those things, but only Jerry Rice did.

It is misleading because the player closest to Rice, is much younger than Rice when he retired, and is only 6 TDs away from doing the same thing. If Owens wasn't a complete head case, there would be no doubt that owens would blow away Rice's record of TDs after a certain age. That is why it is misleading.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Seems like the story now is the same as it was two years ago. In order to catch Rice, Moss would need to do something over the remainder of his career that no one has ever done before - except Rice.

I think this is a little misleading. Physically, Owens could easily do this as well, and even surpass it. It doesn't appear physically he is slowing down tremendously. He's just such a mental case that he's not going to be able to maximize his performance.

It's 100% completely, literally true: Moss would need to do something no one has ever done before except Jerry Rice. Sure, Owens could do it. But besides Rice, no one else has done it yet. I can't imagine how that's misleading. That's the amazing thing about Jerry Rice - not only did he put up phenomenal TD numbers in his first ten years in the league, he then put up numbers in his second ten years (!) in the league that no one has ever matched. Anyone who ever played the position could have done those things, but only Jerry Rice did.

It is misleading because the player closest to Rice, is much younger than Rice when he retired, and is only 6 TDs away from doing the same thing. If Owens wasn't a complete head case, there would be no doubt that owens would blow away Rice's record of TDs after a certain age. That is why it is misleading.

1) Stating a fact is not misleading. If you choose to extrapolate that fact into some other hypothetical tangent about what someone could do, that's on you. 2) Owens is actually 23 TDs away from doing what Rice did. So instead of worrying about how misleading you think my facts are, perhaps you should check your own.

 

[Bull Dozier]

2) Owens is actually 23 TDs away from doing what Rice did. So instead of worrying about how misleading you think my facts are, perhaps you should check your own.

My bad. I misread the post above.

 

[CalBear]

It is misleading because the player closest to Rice, is much younger than Rice when he retired, and is only 6 TDs away from doing the same thing. If Owens wasn't a complete head case, there would be no doubt that owens would blow away Rice's record of TDs after a certain age. That is why it is misleading.

And if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle. Rice's longevity was a combination of physical effort and mental toughness; to do what Rice did, you have to have both. Moss is certainly more physically talented than Rice; you could make an argument that TO is as well (if you don't count hands as part of physical talent). But neither TO nor Moss has the head to go with the physical talents, which is why Rice's records will not be approached by either of them.

 

[Saints-Man]

It is misleading because the player closest to Rice, is much younger than Rice when he retired, and is only 6 TDs away from doing the same thing. If Owens wasn't a complete head case, there would be no doubt that owens would blow away Rice's record of TDs after a certain age. That is why it is misleading.

And if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle. Rice's longevity was a combination of physical effort and mental toughness; to do what Rice did, you have to have both. Moss is certainly more physically talented than Rice; you could make an argument that TO is as well (if you don't count hands as part of physical talent). But neither TO nor Moss has the head to go with the physical talents, which is why Rice's records will not be approached by either of them.

Also, by all accounts, Rice was a great team player. As long as he had any ability left, teams wanted him. That is part of the package he brought to the table, and it all counts.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Congratulations on your induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Jerry Rice. Neither Moss nor Owens will ever catch your TD record. Someday, one or both of them may join you in the Hall, but you are in a class so far above them they should build a separate building just for you.

 

[DaWidowMaker]

Congratulations on your induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Jerry Rice. Neither Moss nor Owens will ever catch your TD record. Someday, one or both of them may join you in the Hall, but you are in a class so far above them they should build a separate building just for you.

Amen brother.

 

[fantasizing]

Moss still certainly has a chance, 10 TD's a season for the next 5 seasons gets him there. If he stays with Brady, then it's possible..

With Brady, he's averaging more than 10 a season.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Moss still certainly has a chance, 10 TD's a season for the next 5 seasons gets him there. If he stays with Brady, then it's possible..With Brady, he's averaging more than 10 a season.

Sure; but if he gets injured, or if he pouts...bye bye.

 

[nyGIANTSnj]

I really think Moss has a good shot. Here's why

1. Rice started at age 23 in 1985 and Moss started at age 21 in 1998.

2. In the first 12 years of both careers Rice had 154 TD's while Moss has 148. Moss has 6TD's less than Rice at the same point in career but Moss is also 2 years younger after the 12 years.

3. Moss will need to average 6.5 in the next 8 years or 8.5 over the next 6 years.

I think Moss playing with Brady, not have a ring could do it.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Moss still certainly has a chance, 10 TD's a season for the next 5 seasons gets him there. If he stays with Brady, then it's possible..With Brady, he's averaging more than 10 a season.

Actually, you want to remember that Rice has 10 td's rushing. Moss has none so far, so that adds another year to the challenge.

 

[fantasizing]

Over Moss' 12 year career in the NFL, he has averaged 12.3333333 TD's per season, and that includes the black hole years in Oakland.

If he can keep up that average, he could break Rice's record in only 4 years.

But, assuming he'll slow down with age and can only average 10 per year, then he could break the record in 5 years.

TO needs a miracle at this point to catch Rice. He needs a couple of monstrous seasons with Palmer (20+ TD's) to even get

back into consideration.

 

[captain_amazing]

Just something to think about.... moss's contract expires w the pats in 2011, and there generally consensus is is that moss will bot be resigned. So if moss isn't with Brady, who is he with, and how does that affect this discussion? Personally, if moss is not with a claliber qb like Brady, then I don't think he breaks rice td record.

 

[fantasizing]

Maybe he joins TO in Cincinnatti.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I really think Moss has a good shot. Here's why1. Rice started at age 23 in 1985 and Moss started at age 21 in 1998. 2. In the first 12 years of both careers Rice had 154 TD's while Moss has 148. Moss has 6TD's less than Rice at the same point in career but Moss is also 2 years younger after the 12 years. 3. Moss will need to average 6.5 in the next 8 years or 8.5 over the next 6 years. I think Moss playing with Brady, not have a ring could do it.

I don't think you truly appreciate what a difficult task that is. Production typically drops off sharply once receivers hit their mid-30s. No one has ever scored 50 receiving TDs after the age of 33... except, of course, Jerry Rice.In fact, check out these NFL records (since 1960):Most TDs scored by a 36 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 37 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 38 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 39 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 40 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 41 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 42 year-old WR: Jerry RiceI doubt Moss will even play 6 more years, let alone average 8.5 TDs over that span. (And even if he did, he'd still be 8 shy of Rice's TD record).

 

[FUBAR]

Just something to think about.... moss's contract expires w the pats in 2011, and there generally consensus is is that moss will bot be resigned. So if moss isn't with Brady, who is he with, and how does that affect this discussion? Personally, if moss is not with a claliber qb like Brady, then I don't think he breaks rice td record.

I agree with this and yet can see a team like St. Louis adding him after 2011 and Bradford helping him to the record. Probably just dreaming, but it wouldn't shock me.

 

[nyGIANTSnj]

I really think Moss has a good shot. Here's why1. Rice started at age 23 in 1985 and Moss started at age 21 in 1998. 2. In the first 12 years of both careers Rice had 154 TD's while Moss has 148. Moss has 6TD's less than Rice at the same point in career but Moss is also 2 years younger after the 12 years. 3. Moss will need to average 6.5 in the next 8 years or 8.5 over the next 6 years. I think Moss playing with Brady, not have a ring could do it.

I don't think you truly appreciate what a difficult task that is. Production typically drops off sharply once receivers hit their mid-30s. No one has ever scored 50 receiving TDs after the age of 33... except, of course, Jerry Rice.In fact, check out these NFL records (since 1960):Most TDs scored by a 36 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 37 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 38 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 39 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 40 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 41 year-old WR: Jerry RiceMost TDs scored by a 42 year-old WR: Jerry RiceI doubt Moss will even play 6 more years, let alone average 8.5 TDs over that span. (And even if he did, he'd still be 8 shy of Rice's TD record).

Rice on his 12th season scored 8td's after which he only scored higher once with 9 while Moss on his 12th season scored 13 and really doesn't show any immediate signs of slowing down. This is why i think he has a chance to score 8.5 for 6 seasons. Projections for him this year is around 11 TD's.

 

[az_prof]

Moss can do it. Whether he will or not depends on his health, how badly he wants it, and luck in terms of playing with good QBs and teams for the next 6 years.

FYI, let's not forget that Rice played with two of the absolute best QBs of all time for many of his years. Until Moss went to NE, his best QB was Culpepper, who has been out of the league for years now and had two goods seasons, both with Moss.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I'll eat my words someday if I am wrong, but I don't think Moss has much of a chance. Once his speed and skills start to diminish, which won't be long given his age, his lack of a work ethic and a good head will prevent him from continuing to be highly productive. In other words, once his skills start to go, his production is likely to fade fast. He simply doesn't have the work ethic or the heart to fight through it and keep toughing it out for years to break a record like this.

 

[nyGIANTSnj]

I'll eat my words someday if I am wrong, but I don't think Moss has much of a chance. Once his speed and skills start to diminish, which won't be long given his age, his lack of a work ethic and a good head will prevent him from continuing to be highly productive. In other words, once his skills start to go, his production is likely to fade fast. He simply doesn't have the work ethic or the heart to fight through it and keep toughing it out for years to break a record like this.

Moss is just as effective as he was when he was a rookie. Rice had more of a decline at this point in his career and Moss is projected at 11 td's

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Rice on his 12th season scored 8td's after which he only scored higher once with 9 while Moss on his 12th season scored 13 and really doesn't show any immediate signs of slowing down. This is why i think he has a chance to score 8.5 for 6 seasons. Projections for him this year is around 11 TD's.

Rice scored 15 TDs when he was 32. Then he scored 16 more when he was 33, so Moss's projection of 11 for this year isn't all that impressive. The point that you continue to miss is that WRs don't show signs of slowing down at age 32. But those signs rapidly appear in the 35-36 range. You're saying Moss can average 8.5 TDs per season from now until he's 39. I'm telling you he probably won't even play that long, let alone score that many TDs. Look how fast the dropoff is:

12 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 33.

9 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 34.

5 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 35.

1 WR scored 8+ TDs at age 36 (Jerry Rice).

0 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 37.

0 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 38.

1 WR scored 8+ TDs at age 39 (Jerry Rice).

 

[SSOG]

Moss can do it. Whether he will or not depends on his health, how badly he wants it, and luck in terms of playing with good QBs and teams for the next 6 years.

FYI, let's not forget that Rice played with two of the absolute best QBs of all time for many of his years. Until Moss went to NE, his best QB was Culpepper, who has been out of the league for years now and had two goods seasons, both with Moss.

Years, months... who's counting, really?Also, two good seasons? I know fantasy points aren't the be-all, end-all, but Daunte Culpepper was a top-2 fantasy QB four times in his career. He had another season where he was a PPG monster, but missed time. And in his best season, the season where he set the record for yards accounted for (passing + rushing), Randy Moss got hurt early in the season, missed a lot of time, and was at partial strength for most of the season, finishing with just 767 of Culpepper's 4700 passing yards.

Don't badmouth Randy's QBs. His two years in Oakland were rough, but outside of that he's had the good fortune of spending his entire career with superlative QBs.

 

[nyGIANTSnj]

Rice on his 12th season scored 8td's after which he only scored higher once with 9 while Moss on his 12th season scored 13 and really doesn't show any immediate signs of slowing down. This is why i think he has a chance to score 8.5 for 6 seasons. Projections for him this year is around 11 TD's.

Rice scored 15 TDs when he was 32. Then he scored 16 more when he was 33, so Moss's projection of 11 for this year isn't all that impressive. The point that you continue to miss is that WRs don't show signs of slowing down at age 32. But those signs rapidly appear in the 35-36 range. You're saying Moss can average 8.5 TDs per season from now until he's 39. I'm telling you he probably won't even play that long, let alone score that many TDs. Look how fast the dropoff is:

12 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 33.

9 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 34.

5 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 35.

1 WR scored 8+ TDs at age 36 (Jerry Rice).

0 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 37.

0 WRs scored 8+ TDs at age 38.

1 WR scored 8+ TDs at age 39 (Jerry Rice).

Like I said, I think he has a good shot at doing it. I don't think it's unlikely for Moss to put up TD's in his later years. He may not be the #1 WR later in his career but with his size i think he will still be a top redzone threat. Especially with the recent 5yard no contact space for WR's. This rule alone will help Moss later in his career

 

[jurb26]

Don't badmouth Randy's QBs. His two years in Oakland were rough, but outside of that he's had the good fortune of spending his entire career with superlative QBs.

Riiiight.Moss will break this record so long as he doesn't win a ring. I think Moss will play as long as possible in an attempt to win a ring. If he wins one next year or the year after I doubt he sticks around much longer. He has the ability and work ethic to break the TD record. People who try and say Moss doesn't work hard should be ignored as they clearly don't have a clue on the matter.

 

[David Yudkin]

Just to clarify, Moss' contract in NE expires after this season.

 

[eze028]

So you're saying expect 20 TD's from Moss this season then? They always play hardest in a contract year, even Moss.

 

[Bri]

There have been so many WRs that overtime, their statistics, just collapsed. At one point Herman Moore was close to something (passing someone on a list?) and geesh he couldn't even be the NYG goalline WR. Unfortunately, these guys run like gazelles and then get hurt like gazelles and need to be "put down" quicker than you'd like. I don't see it.

Where's Tomlinson and the TD record?

 

[SSOG]

Where's Tomlinson and the TD record?

He's 26 TDs behind Emmitt Smith for the rushing TD record. He's 22 behind Smith for 2nd place on the total TDs list, but he's 54 TDs behind Jerry Rice, so I'd say that one's pretty much out of reach.

 

[Bri]

Where's Tomlinson and the TD record?

He's 26 TDs behind Emmitt Smith for the rushing TD record. He's 22 behind Smith for 2nd place on the total TDs list, but he's 54 TDs behind Jerry Rice, so I'd say that one's pretty much out of reach.

thanks SSOGYeah it doesn't seem likely but I still love Tomlinson and want to pretend it is

 

[Bri]

thanks ssog

 

[OnThInIcE911]

Owens- Not a chance.

Moss- It is in the realm of possibility but I don't think he even makes it a sweat. I think his skills are declining and his time with NE is limited.

 

[FUBAR]

Don't badmouth Randy's QBs. His two years in Oakland were rough, but outside of that he's had the good fortune of spending his entire career with superlative QBs.

Jeff George qualifies and superlative? A 36 year old Randall Cunningham? Culpepper was good for Moss but without him he was pretty bad. Still, I can't help but wonder what Moss would have done with QBs as good as Montana/Young for his career. Maybe no better, we'll never know.

 

[SSOG]

Don't badmouth Randy's QBs. His two years in Oakland were rough, but outside of that he's had the good fortune of spending his entire career with superlative QBs.

Jeff George qualifies and superlative? A 36 year old Randall Cunningham? Culpepper was good for Moss but without him he was pretty bad. Still, I can't help but wonder what Moss would have done with QBs as good as Montana/Young for his career. Maybe no better, we'll never know.

Jeff George played awesome for the Vikings (8.6 ypa, 94.3 QB rating). So did Cunningham (who I believe would be a hall of famer if he could have just stayed healthy). As I mentioned, Daunte Culpepper set the NFL record for yardage in a season where Randy had fewer than 800 receiving yards. They were not Montana/Young (and don't forget Rich Gannon, too), but then again, no one is. Jerry Rice had the best QB play of any WR in history outside of possibly Marvin Harrison. With that said, I'd say that the QBs Moss has played with through his career, on the whole, have been way above average.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Don't badmouth Randy's QBs. His two years in Oakland were rough, but outside of that he's had the good fortune of spending his entire career with superlative QBs.

Jeff George qualifies and superlative? A 36 year old Randall Cunningham? Culpepper was good for Moss but without him he was pretty bad. Still, I can't help but wonder what Moss would have done with QBs as good as Montana/Young for his career. Maybe no better, we'll never know.

Jeff George played awesome for the Vikings (8.6 ypa, 94.3 QB rating). So did Cunningham (who I believe would be a hall of famer if he could have just stayed healthy). As I mentioned, Daunte Culpepper set the NFL record for yardage in a season where Randy had fewer than 800 receiving yards. They were not Montana/Young (and don't forget Rich Gannon, too), but then again, no one is. Jerry Rice had the best QB play of any WR in history outside of possibly Marvin Harrison. With that said, I'd say that the QBs Moss has played with through his career, on the whole, have been way above average.

As good as Young and Montana were, their effect on Rice has been vastly overstated. For starters, having a great quarterback doesn't mean your quarterback will put up great numbers. Troy Aikman was a better quarterback than Daunte Culpepper, but do you think Moss would have had better numbers with the '90s Cowboys or the '00s Vikings? Montana was a great quarterback, but he didn't put up huge yardage totals. Peyton Manning is better than Matt Schaub, but Schaub threw for 300 more yards last season. So Andre Johnson plays with the "worse" QB than Reggie Wayne, but he was in a better situation for putting up great numbers. And Rice put up excellent numbers with non-Montana/Young QBs. See this: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=5473

 

[jurb26]

Don't badmouth Randy's QBs. His two years in Oakland were rough, but outside of that he's had the good fortune of spending his entire career with superlative QBs.

Jeff George qualifies and superlative? A 36 year old Randall Cunningham? Culpepper was good for Moss but without him he was pretty bad. Still, I can't help but wonder what Moss would have done with QBs as good as Montana/Young for his career. Maybe no better, we'll never know.

Jeff George played awesome for the Vikings (8.6 ypa, 94.3 QB rating). So did Cunningham (who I believe would be a hall of famer if he could have just stayed healthy). As I mentioned, Daunte Culpepper set the NFL record for yardage in a season where Randy had fewer than 800 receiving yards. They were not Montana/Young (and don't forget Rich Gannon, too), but then again, no one is. Jerry Rice had the best QB play of any WR in history outside of possibly Marvin Harrison. With that said, I'd say that the QBs Moss has played with through his career, on the whole, have been way above average.

Compared to Rice (or Harrison for that matter), Moss' QBs have been bellow average at best. Cunningham was Above average but not elite at the time Moss played with him which was 1 season. George was an NFL has been who struck the lottery as a QB by getting to pass to Moss as part of that 99 Minn team. Otherwise, George is pretty much known for being a bust and a bellow average NFL starter. That's another year. Cpep had a great run when throwing to Moss but once Moss (the most dominant offensive player in the NFL at the time) was gone he was pretty much terrible. Moss spent 5 years making Cpep look good when he was in reality a bellow average starter as well. None the less I'll give Cpep credit for being average. Then Moss had 2 years in Oak with an older than dirt Collins and even older and more archaic offensive scheme. This should probably be count as double bad and was an outright terrible place for any WR. Moss has now spent 2 years with Brady, one of which Brady was far from himself. Really Moss only got 1 year of elite play from Brady. The year with Cassell is again another year in which he had well bellow average QB play. So in 12 years Moss has had 1 year of elite QB play, 1 year of above average QB play, 5 years of average QB play and about 5 years of bellow average to terrible play at QB.Let's look at it another way. Moss through 12 years has had only 2 years of playing with a HoF QB. Rice through 12 years had 12 years of playing with HoF QBs. It wasn't until Rice's 15th season in the league that he 1st encountered passes from a non HoF QB and that guy was still above average as well, Garcia. Then to top it off Rice went to Oak and played with another superlative, not HoF quality, QB in Gannon. This isn't even in the same ball park.

 

[billyjohnson]

Moss = 17.56% chance

TO = 0% chance

 

[Chase Stuart]

Jeff George ranked 7th in passing yards and 5th in TDs in '94. In '95, he was 4th in passing yards. In '96, he played in 3 games. In '97 he ranked 1st in passing yards and 2nd in TDs. In '98, he only started 8 games.

Jeff George ranked 5th in yards per game from '94 to '97, behind Moon, Bledsoe, Favre and Marino. He was ahead of Elway and Jerry Rice's QB, Steve Young.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/7EpjA

You can say a lot of things about George, but it's intellectually dishonest to claim that Moss wasn't lucky to play with a quarterback like George in '99. He was well above average when it came to producing big passing numbers.

 

[SSOG]

Compared to Rice (or Harrison for that matter), Moss' QBs have been bellow average at best.

And compared to Jim Brown, Adrian Peterson's a pretty darn mediocre RB. Your point?Compared to Rice, *EVERYONE* has had mediocre QBs. Compared to everyone else, though, Moss has had very, very good QB play. Plus, as Chase alluded to, it's more than just the QB- the system plays a huge role in it, too, and few players have played in friendlier systems than Randy Moss. Anyone remember the Randy Ratio?

 

[az_prof]

Moss can do it. Whether he will or not depends on his health, how badly he wants it, and luck in terms of playing with good QBs and teams for the next 6 years.

FYI, let's not forget that Rice played with two of the absolute best QBs of all time for many of his years. Until Moss went to NE, his best QB was Culpepper, who has been out of the league for years now and had two goods seasons, both with Moss.

Years, months... who's counting, really?Also, two good seasons? I know fantasy points aren't the be-all, end-all, but Daunte Culpepper was a top-2 fantasy QB four times in his career. He had another season where he was a PPG monster, but missed time. And in his best season, the season where he set the record for yards accounted for (passing + rushing), Randy Moss got hurt early in the season, missed a lot of time, and was at partial strength for most of the season, finishing with just 767 of Culpepper's 4700 passing yards.

Don't badmouth Randy's QBs. His two years in Oakland were rough, but outside of that he's had the good fortune of spending his entire career with superlative QBs.

SSOG, you are usually pretty sound on facts, but this time, you are way, way off base. Moss has not had anywhere near the same QB play as Rice. Culpepper was good because of Moss and Carter. And do you really want to compare Jeff George to Joe Montana? I could go on, but I won't.In anycase, Moss is capable and people who question his work ethic are way off too. He has never, and I mean never, had a problem with his work ethic. A few arm chair announcers who never had the talent Moss has made a big deal out of him not blocking downfield occasionally or not running out plays where he was not a part of the play. That has nothing to do with his conditioning. He is well conditioned and could play for many more years. People like to say Rice was the only guy who ever played well into his mid 30s, blah blah blah... Well, Rice was the first to do a lot of things that Moss has since done. Receivers lose some talent as they hit mid 30s but the guys with the most talent can still play because a drop in 10% from Rice or Moss is still a better than average WR.

 

[jurb26]

Compared to Rice (or Harrison for that matter), Moss' QBs have been bellow average at best.

And compared to Jim Brown, Adrian Peterson's a pretty darn mediocre RB. Your point?Compared to Rice, *EVERYONE* has had mediocre QBs. Compared to everyone else, though, Moss has had very, very good QB play. Plus, as Chase alluded to, it's more than just the QB- the system plays a huge role in it, too, and few players have played in friendlier systems than Randy Moss. Anyone remember the Randy Ratio?

The Randy Ratio was an awful system, yet somehow Moss still made it work. There is no system friendlier than the revolutionary WCO that SF had. SF had the best coaching and best QB at the time. Minn had neither.Here is the list of the top guys in career TD receptions:1. Jerry Rice2. Randy Moss3. Terrell Owens4. Cris Carter5. Marvin Harrison6. Tim Brown Steve Largent8. Don Hutson9. Isaac Bruce10. Don Maynard11. Andre Reed12. Paul Warfield Lance Alworth14. Mark Clayton Irving Fryar Tommy McDonald Andre Rison I don't see a guy on this list who had worse QB play than Moss. Maybe a few had similar QB play.

 

[az_prof]

Jeff George ranked 7th in passing yards and 5th in TDs in '94. In '95, he was 4th in passing yards. In '96, he played in 3 games. In '97 he ranked 1st in passing yards and 2nd in TDs. In '98, he only started 8 games.

Jeff George ranked 5th in yards per game from '94 to '97, behind Moon, Bledsoe, Favre and Marino. He was ahead of Elway and Jerry Rice's QB, Steve Young.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/7EpjA

You can say a lot of things about George, but it's intellectually dishonest to claim that Moss wasn't lucky to play with a quarterback like George in '99. He was well above average when it came to producing big passing numbers.

Did you watch Jeff George play? How about Joe Montana or Steve Young? I watched all these guys, and I am telling you, statistics lie. Jeff George wasn't in the same league as those guys. I can't even believe people are questioning this.It matters because Rice certainly benefited from playing in a prolific passing offense with two Hall of Fame QBs. That doesn't detract from his accomplishments, but it does put them in perspective. Personally, I believe Moss is a better receiver and he had the same QBs and played in the same offense his statistical production would far exceed Rice's. He may pass him anyway. Time will tell.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Jeff George ranked 7th in passing yards and 5th in TDs in '94. In '95, he was 4th in passing yards. In '96, he played in 3 games. In '97 he ranked 1st in passing yards and 2nd in TDs. In '98, he only started 8 games.

Jeff George ranked 5th in yards per game from '94 to '97, behind Moon, Bledsoe, Favre and Marino. He was ahead of Elway and Jerry Rice's QB, Steve Young.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/7EpjA

You can say a lot of things about George, but it's intellectually dishonest to claim that Moss wasn't lucky to play with a quarterback like George in '99. He was well above average when it came to producing big passing numbers.

Did you watch Jeff George play? How about Joe Montana or Steve Young? I watched all these guys, and I am telling you, statistics lie. Jeff George wasn't in the same league as those guys. I can't even believe people are questioning this.

It's funny that you say statistics lie, when we talk about whether or not Moss will break Rice's statistical records. Jeff George threw a boatload of touchdowns and yards and interceptions and incompletions. Montana and Young threw a bunch of touchdowns and yards and not many interceptions or incompletions. The latter two criteria are why Montana and Young were so much better QBs than George, but it's the first two statistics that matter when we talk about receivers.

If George went 30/45 for 350 yards, 3 TDs and 3 INTs, that would be a WORSE game than if Montana went 20/25, 300 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INTs. That's obvious. But guess what -- George's receivers would have much better numbers than Montana's receivers. It doesn't matter how good the QB is, it matters how good he is at accumulating yards and TDs when we're talking about wide receivers. And Culpepper and George were great at that, even when Moss wasn't around.

 

[jurb26]

Jeff George ranked 7th in passing yards and 5th in TDs in '94. In '95, he was 4th in passing yards. In '96, he played in 3 games. In '97 he ranked 1st in passing yards and 2nd in TDs. In '98, he only started 8 games.

Jeff George ranked 5th in yards per game from '94 to '97, behind Moon, Bledsoe, Favre and Marino. He was ahead of Elway and Jerry Rice's QB, Steve Young.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/7EpjA

You can say a lot of things about George, but it's intellectually dishonest to claim that Moss wasn't lucky to play with a quarterback like George in '99. He was well above average when it came to producing big passing numbers.

Did you watch Jeff George play? How about Joe Montana or Steve Young? I watched all these guys, and I am telling you, statistics lie. Jeff George wasn't in the same league as those guys. I can't even believe people are questioning this.

It's funny that you say statistics lie, when we talk about whether or not Moss will break Rice's statistical records. Jeff George threw a boatload of touchdowns and yards and interceptions and incompletions. Montana and Young threw a bunch of touchdowns and yards and not many interceptions or incompletions. The latter two criteria are why Montana and Young were so much better QBs than George, but it's the first two statistics that matter when we talk about receivers.

If George went 30/45 for 350 yards, 3 TDs and 3 INTs, that would be a WORSE game than if Montana went 20/25, 300 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INTs. That's obvious. But guess what -- George's receivers would have much better numbers than Montana's receivers. It doesn't matter how good the QB is, it matters how good he is at accumulating yards and TDs when we're talking about wide receivers. And Culpepper and George were great at that, even when Moss wasn't around.

Moss played exactly 12 games with George. Maybe I'm a bit too critical of the guy, but it seems you are overestimating the positive impacts here. Moss' greatest length with any QB is with Cpep. Do you think Cpep was anything more than an average QB?

 

[SSOG]

SSOG, you are usually pretty sound on facts, but this time, you are way, way off base. Moss has not had anywhere near the same QB play as Rice. Culpepper was good because of Moss and Carter. And do you really want to compare Jeff George to Joe Montana? I could go on, but I won't.

Red herring alert! Link to where I said Moss's QB play was anywhere near the same as Rice's? Link to where I ever compared Jeff George to Joe Montana for the briefest of moments? I never said anything of the sort, I just said that Moss's QB play was well above average... and it was.

The Randy Ratio was an awful system, yet somehow Moss still made it work. There is no system friendlier than the revolutionary WCO that SF had. SF had the best coaching and best QB at the time. Minn had neither.Here is the list of the top guys in career TD receptions:1. Jerry Rice2. Randy Moss3. Terrell Owens4. Cris Carter5. Marvin Harrison6. Tim Brown Steve Largent8. Don Hutson9. Isaac Bruce10. Don Maynard11. Andre Reed12. Paul Warfield Lance Alworth14. Mark Clayton Irving Fryar Tommy McDonald Andre Rison I don't see a guy on this list who had worse QB play than Moss. Maybe a few had similar QB play.

Ummm... the Randy Ratio guaranteed Randy 160+ targets a year. Of course he made it work, it's one of the most conducive systems to WR production the league has ever seen.Terrell Owens' QBs have been Jeff Garcia, Donovan McNabb (for a season), Drew Bledsoe (way past his prime), Tony Romo, Trent Edwards, and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Give me Cunningham/George/Culpepper/Brady any day of the week. Cris Carter's QB position was filled with a revolving door of journeymen before Moss showed up (pre-Oakland Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, Jim McMahon). Give me Culpepper and Brady over that cast of QBs any day of the week. Before Brown got Gannon at the end of his career, he had Jay Schroeder, Jeff Hostetler, and Donald Hollas. You really want to argue that he was better off than Moss? Steve Largent had Jim Zorn and Dave Kreig. Seriously? SERIOUSLY?I'd love to see someone (Chase?) do a breakdown of how many times each of those receivers' QBs made the pro bowl and how many times he was a first-team AP All Pro while playing with that receiver. I suspect Moss would trump almost everyone on the list except for Rice and Harrison.

 

[SSOG]

Moss played exactly 12 games with George. Maybe I'm a bit too critical of the guy, but it seems you are overestimating the positive impacts here. Moss' greatest length with any QB is with Cpep. Do you think Cpep was anything more than an average QB?

The dude owns the record for the most yards ever put up in a single season by any QB in the history of the NFL... and he did it in a season where Randy Moss only went for less than 800 receiving yards. Average? What a joke. Culpepper wasn't a hall of famer, but calling him average is just insulting and silly.

 

[jurb26]

Moss played exactly 12 games with George. Maybe I'm a bit too critical of the guy, but it seems you are overestimating the positive impacts here. Moss' greatest length with any QB is with Cpep. Do you think Cpep was anything more than an average QB?

The dude owns the record for the most yards ever put up in a single season by any QB in the history of the NFL... and he did it in a season where Randy Moss only went for less than 800 receiving yards. Average? What a joke. Culpepper wasn't a hall of famer, but calling him average is just insulting and silly.

Moss' impact that year was monumental even though he was injured. This has been beaten to death in years past. Cpep was a made by Moss. It's really that simple. If Cpep was so great where are any of his even average season w/o Moss? Cpep was a bellow average QB who could throw a nice deep ball. Luckily for him, Moss was that work for him for years. I'm not about to rehash this entire debate. Here are just a couple of links for arguments past.Visit My Website

Visit My Website

 

[jurb26]

SSOG, you are usually pretty sound on facts, but this time, you are way, way off base. Moss has not had anywhere near the same QB play as Rice. Culpepper was good because of Moss and Carter. And do you really want to compare Jeff George to Joe Montana? I could go on, but I won't.

Red herring alert! Link to where I said Moss's QB play was anywhere near the same as Rice's? Link to where I ever compared Jeff George to Joe Montana for the briefest of moments? I never said anything of the sort, I just said that Moss's QB play was well above average... and it was.

The Randy Ratio was an awful system, yet somehow Moss still made it work. There is no system friendlier than the revolutionary WCO that SF had. SF had the best coaching and best QB at the time. Minn had neither.Here is the list of the top guys in career TD receptions:1. Jerry Rice2. Randy Moss3. Terrell Owens4. Cris Carter5. Marvin Harrison6. Tim Brown Steve Largent8. Don Hutson9. Isaac Bruce10. Don Maynard11. Andre Reed12. Paul Warfield Lance Alworth14. Mark Clayton Irving Fryar Tommy McDonald Andre Rison I don't see a guy on this list who had worse QB play than Moss. Maybe a few had similar QB play.

Ummm... the Randy Ratio guaranteed Randy 160+ targets a year. Of course he made it work, it's one of the most conducive systems to WR production the league has ever seen.Terrell Owens' QBs have been Jeff Garcia, Donovan McNabb (for a season), Drew Bledsoe (way past his prime), Tony Romo, Trent Edwards, and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Give me Cunningham/George/Culpepper/Brady any day of the week. Cris Carter's QB position was filled with a revolving door of journeymen before Moss showed up (pre-Oakland Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, Jim McMahon). Give me Culpepper and Brady over that cast of QBs any day of the week. Before Brown got Gannon at the end of his career, he had Jay Schroeder, Jeff Hostetler, and Donald Hollas. You really want to argue that he was better off than Moss? Steve Largent had Jim Zorn and Dave Kreig. Seriously? SERIOUSLY?I'd love to see someone (Chase?) do a breakdown of how many times each of those receivers' QBs made the pro bowl and how many times he was a first-team AP All Pro while playing with that receiver. I suspect Moss would trump almost everyone on the list except for Rice and Harrison.

Carter played with Gannon, Cunningham (in his prime and along with Moss), Johnson, Moon and George. That is very similar to Moss' crew and probably better. TO's group is pretty comparable as well. The only guys who were clearly worse off was Largent and Brown.Asking for how many Pro Bowls or All Pros doesn't counter the argument against Cpep. The argument is that Moss is what allowed Cpep to get those rewards and all of this has been beaten to death in threads throughout the years. Some of which I linked bellow but I know there are several more.

 

[alex209]

no no no

 

[cvnpoka]

Troy Aikman was a better quarterback than Daunte Culpepper

proly not with relation to moss. to be clear, i think if you swap prime aikman with daunte, moss does worse.