Cleveland Browns (4 Viewers)

[amnesiac]

honestly i'd like to keep Heckert, but if the whole lot of them go at this point i don't care.

i just don't want to see another wholesale roster turnover again. i think they're finally starting to acquire some talent, i would hate to see some of these players flushed just cause they were the last regime's guys.

Jauron will probably be the interim coach when Shurmur is fired. probably shortly after Haslam takes over.

 

[MAC_32]

Yesterday was the swing game, we're going to be 0-5 going into Cincy and the ownership change, another L and Pat + Mike go immediately. Heckert may get the full season, but I won't be upset if he goes too. Good but not great draft scout, mediocre at best GM. Jauron is the only big piece of this regime I really want back, just not as the head guy.

Thankfully there's a Jimmy Haslam light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[jurb26]

Yesterday was the swing game, we're going to be 0-5 going into Cincy and the ownership change, another L and Pat + Mike go immediately. Heckert may get the full season, but I won't be upset if he goes too. Good but not great draft scout, mediocre at best GM. Jauron is the only big piece of this regime I really want back, just not as the head guy.Thankfully there's a Jimmy Haslam light at the end of the tunnel.

Looks like the team could implode IMO. Couple of rough losses to start the season and the moral has got to be way down. It doesn't help that they will be w/o their best defensive player for another 3 games. It's pretty crazy that only 3 weeks into the season there are only 2 winless teams, Clev and GB. Not sure if that is rare or not but it kind of feels like it should be. Clev looks to have the inside track on the #1 overall right now. Yeah, it's only 3 weeks in....

 

[beer 302]

CAN WE FIRE HIM EVERY WEEK FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE? We are just terrible.

 

[Bobcat10]

Instead of repeating everything positive and negative that's been coming out in this thread, I will just say we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I guess I don't blame people for not going, but there were still too many orange seats yesterday. There was also alot of blue down there, especially in the uppers where I was sitting. I've never had a problem with Bills fans and actually respect their fanbase and ownership for how they treated us during the dark days after the ridiculous move, so I'll chalk up the couple of poor representation incidents as just being isolated incidents. I'm a pretty mellow dude, even at the games, and I probably could count on one hand the number of times I actually had something to stand up and cheer about yesterday...but this old guy, probably nearing his 60s, was laying into me in the 3rd quarter when I stood up for too long after the one big 3rd down stop in the 3rd quarter when the score was 17-14. That's the short version of the story but the guy was way out of line and I felt bad for the 10 other Buffalo fans right around me cuz they had to be embarrassed.

 

[TxBuckeye]

It's pretty crazy that only 3 weeks into the season there are only 2 winless teams, Clev and GB. Not sure if that is rare or not but it kind of feels like it should be. Clev looks to have the inside track on the #1 overall right now. Yeah, it's only 3 weeks in....

NO?

 

[wadegarrett]

Can't believe I sat in the cold rain and watched that ####.

 

[MAC_32]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

 

[Bobcat10]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on. They just missed on some of the long balls he threw. He had the team moving a few drives and they either just stalled or had very costly penalties. I will say, he missed a couple wide open players in order to dump off to a short crossing route. One was Cameron on a flag route to the pile on. It could be that Weeden is moving too quickly through his reads or maybe not making all his reads due to pressure...but I don't recall alot of pressure on that one particular play. Wonder how many plays Cameron was in for. He looked good to me...but they'd take him out immediately after he made a catch. I get he's not on every package...but he looked like he had some mismatches that we could of exploited more.

 

[daveR]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on. They just missed on some of the long balls he threw. He had the team moving a few drives and they either just stalled or had very costly penalties. I will say, he missed a couple wide open players in order to dump off to a short crossing route. One was Cameron on a flag route to the pile on. It could be that Weeden is moving too quickly through his reads or maybe not making all his reads due to pressure...but I don't recall alot of pressure on that one particular play. Wonder how many plays Cameron was in for. He looked good to me...but they'd take him out immediately after he made a catch. I get he's not on every package...but he looked like he had some mismatches that we could of exploited more.

Cameron had five catches on seven targets.Funny, I missed the first quarter while attending church. The game I saw (three quarters) played out about how I expected. Offensively, some good, some bad. (Little has got to stop dropping balls!) Defensively, without Haden, we were sunk. Maybe all the "ugly" took place in the first 15 minutes.At any rate, I hear a lot of emotion in here. I don't hear much logic.

 

[MAC_32]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on.

I'm sure he was set up by the media, but his post game Q&A was atrocious. There's no 'me' and 'I' when talking about the team's game in which we fell to 0-3. Saying things like I felt like I played a pretty good game until the last throw is the LAST thing I want to hear from my starting QB of an 0-3 team. Not sure of the exact quote, I was driving, but something like that. My doubts with him surrounded decision making and execution under duress, but it sounds like his problems may run deeper.Apparently Shurmur had a rough PC this morning and Greg Little sounds like he's headed for a demotion too. Fun stuff.

 

[MAC_32]

Maybe all the "ugly" took place in the first 15 minutes.

We might've lost 38-7 if Spiller didn't get hurt, we were getting blown out of the building but after he got hurt the Bills offense lost their mojo before eventually regaining it in the 2nd half. Our defense looked like a series of orange cones on those first 3 drives.

 

[El Truth]

Maybe all the "ugly" took place in the first 15 minutes.

We might've lost 38-7 if Spiller didn't get hurt, we were getting blown out of the building but after he got hurt the Bills offense lost their mojo before eventually regaining it in the 2nd half. Our defense looked like a series of orange cones on those first 3 drives.

that screen pass for the TD to Spiller was pretty bad. He wasn't even accounted for coming out of the backfield. How the hell do you not have someone spying Spiller on every play.

 

[MAC_32]

Maybe all the "ugly" took place in the first 15 minutes.

We might've lost 38-7 if Spiller didn't get hurt, we were getting blown out of the building but after he got hurt the Bills offense lost their mojo before eventually regaining it in the 2nd half. Our defense looked like a series of orange cones on those first 3 drives.

that screen pass for the TD to Spiller was pretty bad. He wasn't even accounted for coming out of the backfield. How the hell do you not have someone spying Spiller on every play.

It was the perfect play call at the right time, can't have Spiller shadowed all game, can't win with the defense on their heels. Problem was no one behind him came close to making a play once he was free.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

To me the recipe for success for the Browns is more Trent and less Weeden/WRs. Richardson is a legit difference maker if the Browns will stay committed to him. Ball control.

 

[MAC_32]

To me the recipe for success for the Browns is more Trent and less Weeden/WRs. Richardson is a legit difference maker if the Browns will stay committed to him. Ball control.

Tried to, holes weren't there then we fell too far behind. I think that was actually a good 27 yards from him given what was there. Buffalo's just real strong vs. the run, borderline elite front 4. I think we'll see the same thing Thursday night, whether we stay in the game depends how it goes and if we can at least somewhat contain the Ravens new and improved offense - maybe they'll be sleep walking after an empotional win. I think he's a better RB on touches 10-20 than 1-10, defense wears down - he does not.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

To me the recipe for success for the Browns is more Trent and less Weeden/WRs. Richardson is a legit difference maker if the Browns will stay committed to him. Ball control.

Tried to, holes weren't there then we fell too far behind. I think that was actually a good 27 yards from him given what was there. Buffalo's just real strong vs. the run, borderline elite front 4. I think we'll see the same thing Thursday night, whether we stay in the game depends how it goes and if we can at least somewhat contain the Ravens new and improved offense - maybe they'll be sleep walking after an empotional win. I think he's a better RB on touches 10-20 than 1-10, defense wears down - he does not.

fell too far behind? They were down 17-14 in the 4th quarter with the ball in Buff territory and went screen-TE dump-sack. He got 4 carries in the 2nd half. Buffalo line ain't THAT good. maybe if they would try to get him outside once in a while instead of banging him up the middle every single time they might get somewhere.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on.

I'm sure he was set up by the media, but his post game Q&A was atrocious. There's no 'me' and 'I' when talking about the team's game in which we fell to 0-3. Saying things like I felt like I played a pretty good game until the last throw is the LAST thing I want to hear from my starting QB of an 0-3 team. Not sure of the exact quote, I was driving, but something like that. My doubts with him surrounded decision making and execution under duress, but it sounds like his problems may run deeper.

I hear he puts ketchup on his scrambled eggs too.

 

[MAC_32]

To me the recipe for success for the Browns is more Trent and less Weeden/WRs. Richardson is a legit difference maker if the Browns will stay committed to him. Ball control.

Tried to, holes weren't there then we fell too far behind. I think that was actually a good 27 yards from him given what was there. Buffalo's just real strong vs. the run, borderline elite front 4. I think we'll see the same thing Thursday night, whether we stay in the game depends how it goes and if we can at least somewhat contain the Ravens new and improved offense - maybe they'll be sleep walking after an empotional win. I think he's a better RB on touches 10-20 than 1-10, defense wears down - he does not.

fell too far behind? They were down 17-14 in the 4th quarter with the ball in Buff territory and went screen-TE dump-sack. He got 4 carries in the 2nd half. Buffalo line ain't THAT good. maybe if they would try to get him outside once in a while instead of banging him up the middle every single time they might get somewhere.

I think you're under estimating their line. Kyle Williams and Marcel Dareus are elite DT's, Mario while inconsistent is an elite DE, Mark Anderson isn't on their level but like Ray Edwards when he was that other DE on the elite Minnesota DL's when the attention is elsewhere he makes plays. That sequence at the beginning of the 4th was fugly though.

 

[MAC_32]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on.

I'm sure he was set up by the media, but his post game Q&A was atrocious. There's no 'me' and 'I' when talking about the team's game in which we fell to 0-3. Saying things like I felt like I played a pretty good game until the last throw is the LAST thing I want to hear from my starting QB of an 0-3 team. Not sure of the exact quote, I was driving, but something like that. My doubts with him surrounded decision making and execution under duress, but it sounds like his problems may run deeper.

I hear he puts ketchup on his scrambled eggs too.

Outside of his big arm, which Derek Anderson also had, please give me some reason for optimism.

 

[TxBuckeye]

I hear he puts ketchup on his scrambled eggs too.

Outside of his big arm, which Derek Anderson also had, please give me some reason for optimism.

It isn't THAT much ketchup?

 

[MAC_32]

I hear he puts ketchup on his scrambled eggs too.

Outside of his big arm, which Derek Anderson also had, please give me some reason for optimism.

It isn't THAT much ketchup?

That's his problem, he uses ketchup and not hot sauce.

 

[daveR]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on.

I'm sure he was set up by the media, but his post game Q&A was atrocious. There's no 'me' and 'I' when talking about the team's game in which we fell to 0-3. Saying things like I felt like I played a pretty good game until the last throw is the LAST thing I want to hear from my starting QB of an 0-3 team. Not sure of the exact quote, I was driving, but something like that. My doubts with him surrounded decision making and execution under duress, but it sounds like his problems may run deeper.

I hear he puts ketchup on his scrambled eggs too.

Outside of his big arm, which Derek Anderson also had, please give me some reason for optimism.

Accuracy. DA had none (that I saw). He also has better touch. Again, DA had none. Brains perhaps, but I haven't spoken to either one, so this is just my personal impression.

 

[MAC_32]

Weeden has missed a lot of throws, and not just under duress but in a clean pocket too. The only difference between the 2 I've seen is Weeden at least has the ability to throw a touch pass at the LOS. His decision making has been just as consistently bone headed as DA's though.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Holmgren = fail.

 

[daveR]

Weeden has missed a lot of throws, and not just under duress but in a clean pocket too. The only difference between the 2 I've seen is Weeden at least has the ability to throw a touch pass at the LOS. His decision making has been just as consistently bone headed as DA's though.

I agree with some of this, not his decision-making, though. I've seen good reads consistantly.

 

[daveR]

Holmgren = fail.

Thanks for the insight! It's rivoting information like this that makes people return to the Shark Pool again and again!

 

[MAC_32]

Weeden has missed a lot of throws, and not just under duress but in a clean pocket too. The only difference between the 2 I've seen is Weeden at least has the ability to throw a touch pass at the LOS. His decision making has been just as consistently bone headed as DA's though.

I agree with some of this, not his decision-making, though. I've seen good reads consistantly.

Even dismissing week 1 his decisions in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line are the ones I'm referring to, outside of his sluggish starts he's been somewhere between alright and encouraging the first 3 quarters but QB's earn their paycheck in the 4th quarter, on 3rd down, and in the 2 minute drill and he's been more a lot more bad than good in those spots the last 2 weeks.

 

[wadegarrett]

Holmgren = fail.

There was one?

 

[TxBuckeye]

Holmgren = fail.

Thanks for the insight! It's rivoting information like this that makes people return to the Shark Pool again and again!

Guy is just a troll. And I'll be damned if I can find how to ignore him. Where did they hide that function??? Never used to have trouble finding it.

 

[amnesiac]

looked to me like every single player on that team took turns ####### up yesterday.

i know it's a young team, but that speaks to bad coaching.

fans more than anything are tired of watching bad football.

it's sad that at this point i think most fans would settle for 4-12 if the team at least looked like a real football team while losing close games.

 

[Bobcat10]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on. They just missed on some of the long balls he threw. He had the team moving a few drives and they either just stalled or had very costly penalties. I will say, he missed a couple wide open players in order to dump off to a short crossing route. One was Cameron on a flag route to the pile on. It could be that Weeden is moving too quickly through his reads or maybe not making all his reads due to pressure...but I don't recall alot of pressure on that one particular play. Wonder how many plays Cameron was in for. He looked good to me...but they'd take him out immediately after he made a catch. I get he's not on every package...but he looked like he had some mismatches that we could of exploited more.

Cameron had five catches on seven targets.Funny, I missed the first quarter while attending church. The game I saw (three quarters) played out about how I expected. Offensively, some good, some bad. (Little has got to stop dropping balls!) Defensively, without Haden, we were sunk. Maybe all the "ugly" took place in the first 15 minutes.

At any rate, I hear a lot of emotion in here. I don't hear much logic.

I'm a pretty logical thinker, so I'm a little .http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2012/9/24/3382864/analyzing-the-snap-counts-in-bills-vs-browns-offense

Here is what I was looking for and believe this completes my point regarding Cameron. If you think less than 33% of the snaps is acceptable for the player who seemed to be getting open while being targeted on the actual pass or not, then we'll just have to disagree.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on. They just missed on some of the long balls he threw. He had the team moving a few drives and they either just stalled or had very costly penalties. I will say, he missed a couple wide open players in order to dump off to a short crossing route. One was Cameron on a flag route to the pile on. It could be that Weeden is moving too quickly through his reads or maybe not making all his reads due to pressure...but I don't recall alot of pressure on that one particular play. Wonder how many plays Cameron was in for. He looked good to me...but they'd take him out immediately after he made a catch. I get he's not on every package...but he looked like he had some mismatches that we could of exploited more.

Cameron had five catches on seven targets.Funny, I missed the first quarter while attending church. The game I saw (three quarters) played out about how I expected. Offensively, some good, some bad. (Little has got to stop dropping balls!) Defensively, without Haden, we were sunk. Maybe all the "ugly" took place in the first 15 minutes.

At any rate, I hear a lot of emotion in here. I don't hear much logic.

I'm a pretty logical thinker, so I'm a little .http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2012/9/24/3382864/analyzing-the-snap-counts-in-bills-vs-browns-offense

Here is what I was looking for and believe this completes my point regarding Cameron. If you think less than 33% of the snaps is acceptable for the player who seemed to be getting open while being targeted on the actual pass or not, then we'll just have to disagree.

Cameron looks like the best hope to start building a reliable passing game...

 

[daveR]

we've had chances to win three games that were winnable and we failed. I see the talent getting better, I see the roster getting stronger, and I think we have some good pieces in place.....but Shurmur was a catastrophic hiring by Holmgren imo. He's not the only person to blame by a longshot, but I think with the right person leading this team these young players will figure out how to start winning football games. It's not going to happen with Shurmur. I feel pretty strongly about that.

I know I've beaten the Weeden pick to death, but nowhere near as much as Shurmur, he's just in over his head. I liked Haslam's comment during the broadcast about liking the young nucleus in place on the roster, so I don't think the roster's getting blown up. Absolutely can't rule out a QB change if we're in the top of the draft as it's looking and given the improving roster it's something we can withstand - just going to be brutal if we end up eating that #22 pick.

I don't think Weeden had a particularly strong game yesterday, but he's one of the last people I'd put blame on. They just missed on some of the long balls he threw. He had the team moving a few drives and they either just stalled or had very costly penalties. I will say, he missed a couple wide open players in order to dump off to a short crossing route. One was Cameron on a flag route to the pile on. It could be that Weeden is moving too quickly through his reads or maybe not making all his reads due to pressure...but I don't recall alot of pressure on that one particular play. Wonder how many plays Cameron was in for. He looked good to me...but they'd take him out immediately after he made a catch. I get he's not on every package...but he looked like he had some mismatches that we could of exploited more.

Cameron had five catches on seven targets.Funny, I missed the first quarter while attending church. The game I saw (three quarters) played out about how I expected. Offensively, some good, some bad. (Little has got to stop dropping balls!) Defensively, without Haden, we were sunk. Maybe all the "ugly" took place in the first 15 minutes.

At any rate, I hear a lot of emotion in here. I don't hear much logic.

I'm a pretty logical thinker, so I'm a little .http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2012/9/24/3382864/analyzing-the-snap-counts-in-bills-vs-browns-offense

Here is what I was looking for and believe this completes my point regarding Cameron. If you think less than 33% of the snaps is acceptable for the player who seemed to be getting open while being targeted on the actual pass or not, then we'll just have to disagree.

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My fault. The logic vs emotion comment was directed at the majority of the posts that said stuff like "clueless" or "fail" or "deer in the headlights look" -- all irrational.

 

[beer 302]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My fault. The logic vs emotion comment was directed at the majority of the posts that said stuff like "clueless" or "fail" or "deer in the headlights look" -- all irrational.

Sorry Super Dave but ill take issue with that last part, Shurmur is lost out there man and if you can't see that then you are watching a different game than I am.27 of the 53 men on the roster have 2 years or less experience in the NFL with better than half that number being rookies. They need a strong leader and right now about the best we got is Trent Richardson. It's not Holmgren, it's not Heckert, it's not Shurmur. Bunch a dead men walking in Berea.

 

[MAC_32]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My fault. The logic vs emotion comment was directed at the majority of the posts that said stuff like "clueless" or "fail" or "deer in the headlights look" -- all irrational.

Sorry Super Dave but ill take issue with that last part, Shurmur is lost out there man and if you can't see that then you are watching a different game than I am.27 of the 53 men on the roster have 2 years or less experience in the NFL with better than half that number being rookies. They need a strong leader and right now about the best we got is Trent Richardson. It's not Holmgren, it's not Heckert, it's not Shurmur. Bunch a dead men walking in Berea.

Knowing X's and O's is much less important when you're the head man, Shurmur's a classic classic case of the Peter Principle.

 

[daveR]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My fault. The logic vs emotion comment was directed at the majority of the posts that said stuff like "clueless" or "fail" or "deer in the headlights look" -- all irrational.

Sorry Super Dave but ill take issue with that last part, Shurmur is lost out there man and if you can't see that then you are watching a different game than I am.27 of the 53 men on the roster have 2 years or less experience in the NFL with better than half that number being rookies. They need a strong leader and right now about the best we got is Trent Richardson. It's not Holmgren, it's not Heckert, it's not Shurmur. Bunch a dead men walking in Berea.

Knowing X's and O's is much less important when you're the head man, Shurmur's a classic classic case of the Peter Principle.

Exactly my point. You guys think you know what's going on in the huddle, in the coach's head, in the players' minds, etc.. You know how every play is designed, every read, every adjustment. Face the facts... You have decided that you don't like (fill in the blank) and you are assigning negative attributes to that person to justify your opinion. The conclusion that someone is "clueless" based on 30 seconds of looking at an image of his face on TV is NOT based in reality or sound reason. Seriously, if he were indeed "clueless" is there any way whatsoever that he could be an NFL head coach???

 

[MAC_32]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My fault. The logic vs emotion comment was directed at the majority of the posts that said stuff like "clueless" or "fail" or "deer in the headlights look" -- all irrational.

Sorry Super Dave but ill take issue with that last part, Shurmur is lost out there man and if you can't see that then you are watching a different game than I am.27 of the 53 men on the roster have 2 years or less experience in the NFL with better than half that number being rookies. They need a strong leader and right now about the best we got is Trent Richardson. It's not Holmgren, it's not Heckert, it's not Shurmur. Bunch a dead men walking in Berea.

Knowing X's and O's is much less important when you're the head man, Shurmur's a classic classic case of the Peter Principle.

Exactly my point. You guys think you know what's going on in the huddle, in the coach's head, in the players' minds, etc.. You know how every play is designed, every read, every adjustment. Face the facts... You have decided that you don't like (fill in the blank) and you are assigning negative attributes to that person to justify your opinion. The conclusion that someone is "clueless" based on 30 seconds of looking at an image of his face on TV is NOT based in reality or sound reason. Seriously, if he were indeed "clueless" is there any way whatsoever that he could be an NFL head coach???

Uhh, go back and read my posts over the last year on Shurmur. I've gone in much greater detail about how he is clueless as a head coach. He got a coaching job because he's Fritz's nephe...errrr...he was a good coordinator. He is way in over his head as a coach and if you as a Browns fan that watches this team every week and follows this team year round cannot see that then no one can help you. You're blind.

 

[daveR]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. My fault. The logic vs emotion comment was directed at the majority of the posts that said stuff like "clueless" or "fail" or "deer in the headlights look" -- all irrational.

Sorry Super Dave but ill take issue with that last part, Shurmur is lost out there man and if you can't see that then you are watching a different game than I am.27 of the 53 men on the roster have 2 years or less experience in the NFL with better than half that number being rookies. They need a strong leader and right now about the best we got is Trent Richardson. It's not Holmgren, it's not Heckert, it's not Shurmur. Bunch a dead men walking in Berea.

Knowing X's and O's is much less important when you're the head man, Shurmur's a classic classic case of the Peter Principle.

Exactly my point. You guys think you know what's going on in the huddle, in the coach's head, in the players' minds, etc.. You know how every play is designed, every read, every adjustment. Face the facts... You have decided that you don't like (fill in the blank) and you are assigning negative attributes to that person to justify your opinion. The conclusion that someone is "clueless" based on 30 seconds of looking at an image of his face on TV is NOT based in reality or sound reason. Seriously, if he were indeed "clueless" is there any way whatsoever that he could be an NFL head coach???

Uhh, go back and read my posts over the last year on Shurmur. I've gone in much greater detail about how he is clueless as a head coach. He got a coaching job because he's Fritz's nephe...errrr...he was a good coordinator. He is way in over his head as a coach and if you as a Browns fan that watches this team every week and follows this team year round cannot see that then no one can help you. You're blind.

Okay. I'm blind because I refuse to read my opinions into things. Works for me. I prefer that to irrational.

 

[MAC_32]

Don't think I've ever gotten on your case for your optimistic beliefs, but your critiques of any negative opinions just don't make any sense. There's a laundry list of good reasons why I did not want Weeden, think Shurmur is a lousy coach, Heckert is over rated as a GM around here, Holmgren has done a lousy job as team pres, and was happy Randy sold the team but because it is perceived as negative to you it's irrational.

I'll happily change my opinion if I see reason for optimism - brighter outlook on Colt after seeing flashes his rookie year, wanted to believe in Hardesty after hearing all the offseason reports, am coming around on Massaquoi being a competent complimentary WR - but I haven't seen anything to change my opinion on any of the factors mentioned above. Unfortunately for us, those are the most important ones to having a winning team.

 

[daveR]

Don't think I've ever gotten on your case for your optimistic beliefs, but your critiques of any negative opinions just don't make any sense. There's a laundry list of good reasons why I did not want Weeden, think Shurmur is a lousy coach, Heckert is over rated as a GM around here, Holmgren has done a lousy job as team pres, and was happy Randy sold the team but because it is perceived as negative to you it's irrational.I'll happily change my opinion if I see reason for optimism - brighter outlook on Colt after seeing flashes his rookie year, wanted to believe in Hardesty after hearing all the offseason reports, am coming around on Massaquoi being a competent complimentary WR - but I haven't seen anything to change my opinion on any of the factors mentioned above. Unfortunately for us, those are the most important ones to having a winning team.

My point, again, isn't to support anybody. I am hopeful that the current regime will build us a winner. They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors and that gives me hope. I've seen people come & go through the revolving door and each time we start over. Unless there is specific verifiable evidence that they are unable to finish the job, I don't want to start over mid-stream.I understand that people are emotional beings. Emotion leads to action -- both good and bad. I choose to act based on facts. That's all I am suggesting. Actions stemming from facts. Emotion is what sells newspapers and drives talk radio, but listen in for awhile & tell me how much is fact-based.You're welcome to hold out for a title contender before you start supporting the team. That's your right. You're entitled to your opinions, too. I'm sure some of them will be accurate. I'm waiting too. Waiting for facts instead of emotional guesses.

 

[beer 302]

Don't think I've ever gotten on your case for your optimistic beliefs, but your critiques of any negative opinions just don't make any sense. There's a laundry list of good reasons why I did not want Weeden, think Shurmur is a lousy coach, Heckert is over rated as a GM around here, Holmgren has done a lousy job as team pres, and was happy Randy sold the team but because it is perceived as negative to you it's irrational.I'll happily change my opinion if I see reason for optimism - brighter outlook on Colt after seeing flashes his rookie year, wanted to believe in Hardesty after hearing all the offseason reports, am coming around on Massaquoi being a competent complimentary WR - but I haven't seen anything to change my opinion on any of the factors mentioned above. Unfortunately for us, those are the most important ones to having a winning team.

My point, again, isn't to support anybody. I am hopeful that the current regime will build us a winner. They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors and that gives me hope. I've seen people come & go through the revolving door and each time we start over. Unless there is specific verifiable evidence that they are unable to finish the job, I don't want to start over mid-stream.I understand that people are emotional beings. Emotion leads to action -- both good and bad. I choose to act based on facts. That's all I am suggesting. Actions stemming from facts. Emotion is what sells newspapers and drives talk radio, but listen in for awhile & tell me how much is fact-based.You're welcome to hold out for a title contender before you start supporting the team. That's your right. You're entitled to your opinions, too. I'm sure some of them will be accurate. I'm waiting too. Waiting for facts instead of emotional guesses.

Dave I'm going to let this one lie after this as we are going in different directions but you keep bringing up emotion in regards to these responses and frankly I'm not emotional about it. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that Pat Shurmur has no idea what he is doing as a head coach. His game plan is terrible, his game management is worse and when it gets to crunch time he loses it. He calls unnecessary timeouts and shorts himself at the end of the game, he challenges plays that have no business being challenged. I'm encouraged by the talent on the team although I'm less impressed with our WR's than I was. But it will all be wasted without a strong HC that can lead and there is nothing that I have seen from Shurmur, last year or this, that points to him being a leader. Not emotion, fact. Tell me where I'm wrong with that assessment of him?MAC has been off the Weeden bandwagon from day one so to say he's emotional about it way off base. Go back to posts around draft time, he was one of the few of us totally against the pick. Not saying he's right because I still think he has potential but needs more than 3 games but you can't say MAC is emotional about a stance he's held from day one.

 

[MAC_32]

They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors

Like what? and were those moves better than others in the league? Being better than old regimes is irrelevant to being a factor in the league, being better than others is. By my count the only sure fire good moves I've seen have been Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Phil Taylor, and Jabaal Sheard. Safe to say Trent Richardson too. So, leaving Weeden out of this, they have hit on their top 40 picks. Parker and Rucker seem like adequate stop gap free agents too. I don't see anything else. What else have they done? They've said their plan is to build through the draft, but that's it - they've talked. 3 years in and this team is still in the bottom 5 of the league. That's a fact. Opinions aside on the regime and their plan you cannot argue this team is in a better spot than 5 other teams in the league.

 

[daveR]

Don't think I've ever gotten on your case for your optimistic beliefs, but your critiques of any negative opinions just don't make any sense. There's a laundry list of good reasons why I did not want Weeden, think Shurmur is a lousy coach, Heckert is over rated as a GM around here, Holmgren has done a lousy job as team pres, and was happy Randy sold the team but because it is perceived as negative to you it's irrational.I'll happily change my opinion if I see reason for optimism - brighter outlook on Colt after seeing flashes his rookie year, wanted to believe in Hardesty after hearing all the offseason reports, am coming around on Massaquoi being a competent complimentary WR - but I haven't seen anything to change my opinion on any of the factors mentioned above. Unfortunately for us, those are the most important ones to having a winning team.

My point, again, isn't to support anybody. I am hopeful that the current regime will build us a winner. They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors and that gives me hope. I've seen people come & go through the revolving door and each time we start over. Unless there is specific verifiable evidence that they are unable to finish the job, I don't want to start over mid-stream.I understand that people are emotional beings. Emotion leads to action -- both good and bad. I choose to act based on facts. That's all I am suggesting. Actions stemming from facts. Emotion is what sells newspapers and drives talk radio, but listen in for awhile & tell me how much is fact-based.You're welcome to hold out for a title contender before you start supporting the team. That's your right. You're entitled to your opinions, too. I'm sure some of them will be accurate. I'm waiting too. Waiting for facts instead of emotional guesses.

Dave I'm going to let this one lie after this as we are going in different directions but you keep bringing up emotion in regards to these responses and frankly I'm not emotional about it. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that Pat Shurmur has no idea what he is doing as a head coach. His game plan is terrible, his game management is worse and when it gets to crunch time he loses it. He calls unnecessary timeouts and shorts himself at the end of the game, he challenges plays that have no business being challenged. I'm encouraged by the talent on the team although I'm less impressed with our WR's than I was. But it will all be wasted without a strong HC that can lead and there is nothing that I have seen from Shurmur, last year or this, that points to him being a leader. Not emotion, fact. Tell me where I'm wrong with that assessment of him?MAC has been off the Weeden bandwagon from day one so to say he's emotional about it way off base. Go back to posts around draft time, he was one of the few of us totally against the pick. Not saying he's right because I still think he has potential but needs more than 3 games but you can't say MAC is emotional about a stance he's held from day one.

You said, "His game plan is terrible". Which one? What was the plan? He didn't share it with any of us that I know of. Would you try to run TRich? How about mixing up the passing to various WRs and TEs? "He calls unnecessary timeouts". Really??? How many times, specifically, has he "challenged plays that should never be challenged"? What is it that leads you to believe in a head coach, the look on his face? Seriously. Think about it. That tells you nothing.It's okay to say you don't believe in him. It's okay to say you wanted Gruden. It's okay to say you prefer a coach that shows more emotion. But,IMO, it's absurd to say he's "clueless", because there's absolutely no way to know that and it's extremely unlikely that he'd have that job, one of thirty-two, if he were.

 

[daveR]

They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors

Like what? and were those moves better than others in the league? Being better than old regimes is irrelevant to being a factor in the league, being better than others is. By my count the only sure fire good moves I've seen have been Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Phil Taylor, and Jabaal Sheard. Safe to say Trent Richardson too. So, leaving Weeden out of this, they have hit on their top 40 picks. Parker and Rucker seem like adequate stop gap free agents too. I don't see anything else. What else have they done? They've said their plan is to build through the draft, but that's it - they've talked. 3 years in and this team is still in the bottom 5 of the league. That's a fact. Opinions aside on the regime and their plan you cannot argue this team is in a better spot than 5 other teams in the league.

Do you think they're a better team than they were three years ago?

 

[amnesiac]

They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors

Like what? and were those moves better than others in the league? Being better than old regimes is irrelevant to being a factor in the league, being better than others is. By my count the only sure fire good moves I've seen have been Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Phil Taylor, and Jabaal Sheard. Safe to say Trent Richardson too. So, leaving Weeden out of this, they have hit on their top 40 picks. Parker and Rucker seem like adequate stop gap free agents too. I don't see anything else. What else have they done? They've said their plan is to build through the draft, but that's it - they've talked. 3 years in and this team is still in the bottom 5 of the league. That's a fact. Opinions aside on the regime and their plan you cannot argue this team is in a better spot than 5 other teams in the league.

Do you think they're a better team than they were three years ago?

i want to say yes, but that wouldn't be base on any facts. fact is, they are no better than three years ago based on the product on the field. doesn't matter anyway, they will all be fired and we will be in rebuild mode yet again.

 

[beer 302]

They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors

Like what? and were those moves better than others in the league? Being better than old regimes is irrelevant to being a factor in the league, being better than others is. By my count the only sure fire good moves I've seen have been Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Phil Taylor, and Jabaal Sheard. Safe to say Trent Richardson too. So, leaving Weeden out of this, they have hit on their top 40 picks. Parker and Rucker seem like adequate stop gap free agents too. I don't see anything else. What else have they done? They've said their plan is to build through the draft, but that's it - they've talked. 3 years in and this team is still in the bottom 5 of the league. That's a fact. Opinions aside on the regime and their plan you cannot argue this team is in a better spot than 5 other teams in the league.

Do you think they're a better team than they were three years ago?

Unless there was some overturning that I was not aware of the team sits at 0-3 and is squarely looking at 0-5. I'd say, at best, it's more of the same from the last 3 years, 5 years?team needs leadership and it ain't residing in Berea right now.

 

[MAC_32]

They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors

Like what? and were those moves better than others in the league? Being better than old regimes is irrelevant to being a factor in the league, being better than others is. By my count the only sure fire good moves I've seen have been Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Phil Taylor, and Jabaal Sheard. Safe to say Trent Richardson too. So, leaving Weeden out of this, they have hit on their top 40 picks. Parker and Rucker seem like adequate stop gap free agents too. I don't see anything else. What else have they done? They've said their plan is to build through the draft, but that's it - they've talked. 3 years in and this team is still in the bottom 5 of the league. That's a fact. Opinions aside on the regime and their plan you cannot argue this team is in a better spot than 5 other teams in the league.

Do you think they're a better team than they were three years ago?

A better team? No. It's worse. There's a stronger foundation (young talent) to build from, but no team can win with a bad QB, bad coach, and poor leadership - Holmgren and Heckert. The former chose to select his staff then let them do all the work, which would work if they were successful but they have not been and until Randy informed them he was looking to sell the only time he came down was to bark at everyone about playoff tickets. Heckert's an alright scout, but outside of his top 40 picks what has he brought to the team? As I've been saying for a while, building through the draft then re-signing our own can work but if you are as anti free agency as he is then you have to ace the draft because your margin for error is greatly reduced. He has not. And maybe some of those pieces have more potential than they've shown, they just need better direction. It's why I haven't completely indicted Heckert yet, the coaching may be bad enough that there just hasn't been a chance for guys like Little, Skrine, Lauvao, Pinkston, Cameron, etc. to develop. I lean towards both being a part of the problem, but if Shurmur is made the scapegoat and Heckert's given another chance I can get behind that. Or I'll try to anyway, it'll be hard though. The team has been somewhere between bad and totally unwatchable since that brief 3-4 game stretch midseason 2010 and I give the credit of that watchable and entertaining product to Mangini - not any of these guys.

 

[nxmehta]

They have done a lot of things better than their predecessors

Like what? and were those moves better than others in the league? Being better than old regimes is irrelevant to being a factor in the league, being better than others is. By my count the only sure fire good moves I've seen have been Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Phil Taylor, and Jabaal Sheard. Safe to say Trent Richardson too. So, leaving Weeden out of this, they have hit on their top 40 picks. Parker and Rucker seem like adequate stop gap free agents too. I don't see anything else. What else have they done? They've said their plan is to build through the draft, but that's it - they've talked. 3 years in and this team is still in the bottom 5 of the league. That's a fact. Opinions aside on the regime and their plan you cannot argue this team is in a better spot than 5 other teams in the league.

Do you think they're a better team than they were three years ago?

I think we are better, but the question is how much better? We won 5 games 3 years ago. How many will we win this year? Are we 3 years better?People can go back and forth and round and round about whose fault it is, how much talent we have, whether Shurmur is "clueless", what the gameplans are, etc. No fan is qualified to make those kinds of judgments. However, anyone can observe what is obvious, and that is this: Holmgren and company have had three years to build a winning team, and this team has not won a game since November 20, 2011. THAT is a FACT.I really don't see anyone presenting a solid case based on evidence that this regime should stay. But at this point it doesn't matter. This is a bottom line business. At three years in, you need results. And results right now are wins. Or at the very least, well executed football. We don't have either... and you don't need to be a former NFL head coach to see that.

 

[daveR]

I'm glad to see everyone agrees that we now have better talent on the field.