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Cleveland Browns (2 Viewers)

ESPN's Adam Caplan reports "many execs and coaches" around the league believe Cal's Jared Goff is "more ready to play" than North Dakota State's Carson Wentz.
This really isn't a surprise since Goff is coming out of the Pac-12 while Wentz must make the adjustment from the FCS. Both players have prototypical size, though Wentz's hands are bigger and his arm stronger. Signs suggest the Browns will be choosing between the two signal callers at No. 2 overall.
 
Right, my take is Sashi has ultimate final say.  DePo, Sashi, Hue, Berry, Pep, and probably Kovash will all "collaborate" on the decision.  Obviously including scouts and whoever else.  That's probably a perfect world situation, but nonetheless that's what we've been sold.

 
Soulfly3 said:
The word is in. 

Browns going Tunsil at 2,  if available... moving down if not
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Makes sense if they aren't sold on any of the QBs and in-spite of reports of Wentz being the second incarnation of Andrew Luck and John Elway and Tom Brady, I have never bought into the hype.  Wentz is a project who isn't ready to start.

If Tunsil is there then it wouldn't surprise me if we took him because it would give us a couple of options.

  1. Take him and plug him in at right tackle to solidify the line and he'd be ready to take over for Joe Thomas at left tackle in a few years
  2. Take him and turn around and trade Joe Thomas for an extra 1st and an extra 3rd round pick this year
  3. Take him and have him play right tackle for a year and then trade Joe Thomas next year when his value is still high enough to get a 1st round pick
We would still get a QB, probably in the 2nd round or if Paxton Lynch fell past the Rams we might move up for him since we brought him in for a visit.  Cardale would also be on the table from the 3rd round and later.  

Depends on what they really think about the QBs and if Tunsil is there.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
Makes sense if they aren't sold on any of the QBs and in-spite of reports of Wentz being the second incarnation of Andrew Luck and John Elway and Tom Brady, I have never bought into the hype.  Wentz is a project who isn't ready to start.

If Tunsil is there then it wouldn't surprise me if we took him because it would give us a couple of options.

  1. Take him and plug him in at right tackle to solidify the line and he'd be ready to take over for Joe Thomas at left tackle in a few years
  2. Take him and turn around and trade Joe Thomas for an extra 1st and an extra 3rd round pick this year
  3. Take him and have him play right tackle for a year and then trade Joe Thomas next year when his value is still high enough to get a 1st round pick
We would still get a QB, probably in the 2nd round or if Paxton Lynch fell past the Rams we might move up for him since we brought him in for a visit.  Cardale would also be on the table from the 3rd round and later.  

Depends on what they really think about the QBs and if Tunsil is there.
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You don't want to take a QB at #2?

 
massraider said:
You don't want to take a QB at #2?
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I do. I've just been told they're more than likely not.

Now, I wonder what the reasoning is... Do they have a strong suspicion that wentz/goff falls enough for them to grab Tunsil at 2 and then move up mid/late 1st to get a QB? Maybe.

Do they just not love either guy, and are content are riding the lightening w RG3 and McCown for a year and see if #### sticks? Maybe. 

So many possibilities, and Im seeing everything from Goff, Wentz, Tunsil, to Ramsey getting pegged to the Browns.. which maybe is a good thing. Maybe we're finally doing serious due diligence on our picks 

 
massraider said:
You don't want to take a QB at #2?
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I do if our front office thinks they are worth that high but not because the NFL Network and all of the talking heads say we 'HAVE' to take a QB or because THEY believe a QB is worth the pick.

I've got no option other than to fully buy-in with Sashi/DePodesta and the new analytic decision-making process.

Oh and if Tunsil is there and the front office decides to trade Joe Thomas for an extra 1st and 3rd round pick(s) then they could wind up with Tunsil AND Paxton Lynch in the first round and be sitting on the first pick of the 2nd round.

I am not against taking a QB at #2 but I have been luke warm on these guys from the start.  If they take one then I'm not going to be jumping up and down, I'll be more resigned to the logic but I can't honestly say I am thrilled with either guy.

When we took Justin Gilbert I couldn't understand that pick and hated that we moved up to take him.  When we took Johnny I was not happy and hated that we moved up to take him but understood it even though I wanted Teddy.  I had to dig to try and understand why we took Justin Freak'n Gilbert and came away with an understanding of why we took him.  It was Pettine.  He needed two shut down CBs to make his defensive scheme work.  

If we pass on a QB then it just means our front office didn't think either QB was worth the #2 pick.  Nothing personal or emotional about it.  I think that is how they are going to make decisions, unemotionally but with cold hard Vulcan-like logic.   So if Tunsil is there and we take him, I get it.  If Tunsil isn't there and the front office moves down, I get it.  If the front office takes a QB then I get it and am glad they think the QB is worth it but I think it would be paying too high of a price but would be hopeful they turn out.

 
I'd be slightly nauseous about taking ANOTHER CB/Safety w our first pick at 2 w Ramsey, but my goodness, this kid is gonna be special. 

Part of me would be "dammit" and part of me would be "naaaaaasty" 

I really appreciate the kid being able to move around and being a hawk in the passing game and a force in the run game as well. 

 
I don't think the Titans are passing on Tunsil unless they get 'blown away' with a Corleon trade offer to move down from the top pick.

http://www.titansonline.com/news/article-4/Titans-flood-Ole-Miss-Pro-Day-to-see-tackle-Laremy-Tunsil/0225aed8-8df0-4bc6-af83-69bf62883a3d


Titans Flood Ole Miss Pro Day to see Tackle Laremy Tunsil


...The Titans sent a private plane full of team officials here to find out for themselves.

... Robinson and Mularkey were among a big group on hand from the Titans. They chatted with Tunsil in between drills. Offensive line coach Russ Grimm, offensive coordinator Terry Robiskie, defensive coordinator **** LeBeau, national director of college scouting Blake Beddingfield and scout Jon Salge were also on hand on Monday.

... Robinson and Titans officials also visited with Tunsil in Indianapolis at the NFL Combine, and they plan to spend even time with him in Nashville in the coming weeks as well.

Albert BreerVerified account
‏@AlbertBreer Albert Breer Retweeted Jim Wyatt
Laremy Tunsil squarely in Titans' sights.

Jim Wyatt ‏@jwyattsports  Mar 28
.@Titans flood @OleMissFB Pro Day to see @KingTunsil78. So, how did it go? READ http://ttns.co/1Ro4JqR 
 
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Soulfly3 said:
I'd be slightly nauseous about taking ANOTHER CB/Safety w our first pick at 2 w Ramsey, but my goodness, this kid is gonna be special. 

Part of me would be "dammit" and part of me would be "naaaaaasty" 

I really appreciate the kid being able to move around and being a hawk in the passing game and a force in the run game as well. 
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Ramsey is great, but he'd be a terrible pick for this team.  Besides, Myles Jack is better.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
  1. Take him and turn around and trade Joe Thomas for an extra 1st and an extra 3rd round pick this year
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And if that 1st is used on a QB that would be a double shot to the nuts for RG3.  We're going to take away your best O lineman, but replace them with another QB you can battle it out with.

 
If we could get out of the 1st with Tunsil and Coleman... Dear lord up in heaven.... 

I know it's basically slim to none chance, but those are the 2 cats Id kill to have on this team from Rnd 1

I guess the ONLY chance at that, would be as mentioned above... Someone trading their first + for Thomas.

 
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matttyl said:
And if that 1st is used on a QB that would be a double shot to the nuts for RG3.  We're going to take away your best O lineman, but replace them with another QB you can battle it out with.
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In Washington, RG III got kicked in the nutz but when he was signed by the Browns he knew the score.  EVERYONE knows that we will be taking a QB with one of our first two picks in this draft and we may even take ANOTHER QB later in the draft so taking a QB isn't a blow.  Taking a quarterback is a given so if he's that fragile he's never going to make it as an NFL QB.  

http://optimumscouting.com/scouts-notes/state-of-the-draft-titans-trade-down-browns-qb-conflict-goff-slips-character-guys-and-more.html

Browns Potential Conflict
-Not to my surprise, I was told that Hue Jackson was a major advocate for Robert Griffin’s signing, and he feels he can really thrive within his offense. Whether or not Griffin’s signing was Sashi Brown’s way of throwing Jackson a bone or because he felt it was wise is unclear. But the contract design seems to indicate the former.

-The Browns plan was always to add two or, more likely, three quarterbacks this off-season. Griffin makes one. Who will be the second one? On one hand, I’ve been told that taking a QB at #2 has been Sashi Browns’ plan for some time, with Carson Wentz as the expected pick. On the other hand, I’ve been told repeatedly throughout the process, and reiterated unexpectedly from a source last week, that Hue Jackson advocates for Cardale Jones at the top of round two. Whether Sashi Brown and the higher-up front office is trying to put out smoke screens on Wentz (maybe to bait a team to move to #1 like Dallas?) or they simply do want Wentz and will pass on Jackson’s desires, it’s difficult to say at this point.
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If we basically swapped out JT for Tunsil at OLT then we would lose 'some' pass protection but Tunsil only gave up 2 sacks in 3 years and he's a better run blocker.  

If we did trade Joe Thomas and picked up a 2nd first-round pick and got Tunsil/QB in the first round then at the top of the second round we could take the top rated center and move Cam Irvin to RT or we could take one of the top ranked RTs and keep Cam Irving at C so our O-Line would look like.

OLT - Jeremy Tunsil 

OLG - Joel Bitonio

C - Cameron Irving/the top rated center from this draft

ORG - John Grecco

ORT - one of the top rated ORTs from this draft/Cameron Iriving

2 first-round draft picks plus 2 high second-round draft picks with a solid veteran RG in John Grecco.

As it stands right now the Browns offensive line is not in as bad shape as many seem to assume.  I think Cam Irving is going to make a big leap this year and at RT the guy who took over last year, Austin Pasztor, looked 'decent' but we're probably going to be taking a RT or C relatively high in this draft IMHO.

Back to your point.  The team isn't going to base their entire draft strategy around building around RG III and specifically are not going to make selections that only are agreeable to his ego.

 
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Coleman is alright, but I have a hard time thinking he's anything more than that.  I'm not sure how my tiers will shuffle out (pre and post draft), but he's not in my first one.  

 
GordonGekko said:
Soft news trickling out from the college side, apparently Hue Jackson reached out and had a long conversation with David Shaw regarding QB1 Kevin Hogan. On most big boards, Hogan will likely end up a 4th to 6th round grab.

Other team I've heard with more than a passing interest in Hogan was Bill O'Brien/Texans.
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Makes sense but he 'appears' to be more of a backup rather than a legit starting candidate.

There is a connection to the Browns offensive staff with Hogan.  Pep Hamilton recruited him.Link to Browns interest in Kevin Hogan

If the Cleveland Browns take a second quarterback during mid rounds of the 2016 NFL Draft, they should look no further than Stanford quarterback Kevin Hogan, who has a connection to a high-ranking Browns’ coach.


There’s a lot to like about Stanford fifth-year senior Kevin Hogan, who arguably may be the most  intriguing quarterback prospect not projected to be picked in the first round.

What sets him apart? In an era where seemingly every college quarterback prospect prospers playing out of the shotgun, Hogan played in a sophisticated pro-style offense, and has experience playing under center.

His stats don’t pop, mainly because Stanford relied heavily on their rushing attack, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Hogan got better each season he played at Stanford.

Hogan started 51 games in his Stanford, and he finished off his college career by completing 67.8 percent of his passes as a senior in 2015, to go along with his 27 touchdown passes, against just eight interceptions.

Hogan projects as a day two or three pick, which leaves the door open for the Browns to make him their second quarterback selection of the draft. Should the Browns draft two quarterbacks come spring? That’s debatable, but Hogan’s connection to a high-ranking offensive coach sets up one obvious game of connect-the-dots.

Pep Hamilton was hired by Hue Jackson as an offensive assistant. Jackson is going to call the plays, but Hamilton is the closest thing the Browns have to an offensive coordinator. Hamilton was also a a coach/recruiting coordinator during Hogan’s early days at Stanford. The two even got to reunite at the NFL combine, as Hamilton was one of the coaches running quarterbacks through drills.

Hogan documented in his diary for CBS Sports.


“For the first portion of the workout my former coach and recruiting coordinator to Stanford Pep Hamilton ran me through the drills. It was an awesome moment to be reunited with Coach Pep and relive some of my younger days in college.”



Additionally, Hogan has the size at 6-foot-4, 217 pounds, and he can be mobile, rushing for 1,249 in his Stanford career, including 336 yards and six scores in 2015.

Hogan’s performance at the combine wasn’t spectacular, as his accuracy was all over the place, and his deep ball came up short more than a few times, but he did put his athletes on display, finishing fourth among all quarterbacks in the 40-yard dash(4.78 seconds).

But his shortcomings are what make him a mid-round pick.  He still needs work, and perhaps one his old college coaches will be able to bring him along at the pro level.

There’s other prospects for the Browns to consider in the later rounds. Christian Hackenberg and Cardale Jones come to mind, but the connection between Hogan and Hamilton can’t be neglected. The Browns are under enormous pressure to finally figure this quarterback thing out, and Hogan is exactly the type of prospect Cleveland should be looking for in the later rounds.





6
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GordonGekko said:
Strategically, from the resource management side, taking two QB1s in the same draft isn't unprecedented, and it opens up variable options.

If one of the two is a first rounder, the 5th year option is on the table, keeping both from ending up as free agents the same year, in theory.

Given the going rate for cap cost on a veteran backup QB1, why not cost control the position, using the cap savings somewhere else on the roster. Meanwhile that backup might develop and become trade bait, or in the case of RG3/Kirk Cousins, end up your fall back starter option. At least there is a slim developmental window open, compared to having an aging guy with no real upside. You lose the mentoring angle from grizzled backups, but since so many of the current head coaches have offensive/QB developmental pedigree, I think that washes it out some.

Taking Wentz or Goff doesn't rule Hogan off the table. If anything, it puts Hogan in the developmental situation, in theory, that might give him the best chance to succeed overall.

Given positional value, QB1 is just an area where it's not nuts to double down.





3
Click to expand...
I completely agree with everything you say but when you mentioned Hogan, you began by saying:

Soft news trickling out from the college side, apparently Hue Jackson reached out and had a long conversation with David Shaw regarding QB1 Kevin Hogan.
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 The mention of Hogan as a QB1 threw me off.  I mistakenly thought you were suggesting he was a good candidate to groom into a QB 1.

I think taking a flyer on a late round QB is fine even if we took a QB in the first round.  

 
@ESPNCleveland


Grossi: I think the #Browns mindset of this draft is to find guys to score touchdowns or stop them.
You mean drafting two linemen and acquiring two receivers that don't score points in free agency last year was a bad idea?

 
At one point, Grossi said that McCown didn't win enough & needed to be held accountable.  I assume he thinks the same about Joe Thomas.

 
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Coach Hue Jackson bristled at the word "rebuild" being used for the team's moves.

"Because I think rebuilding says that you're totally junking everything and starting over, and that's not what we're doing," Jackson said. "I think we're rebooting and we're recharging because there's still Joe Thomases on our football team, there's Danny Sheltons on our football team, there's Joe Hadens on our football team.

Could someone please explain to me how "rebooting" is a more acceptable term than "rebuilding?"

 
drizzt88 said:
Coach Hue Jackson bristled at the word "rebuild" being used for the team's moves.

"Because I think rebuilding says that you're totally junking everything and starting over, and that's not what we're doing," Jackson said. "I think we're rebooting and we're recharging because there's still Joe Thomases on our football team, there's Danny Sheltons on our football team, there's Joe Hadens on our football team.

Could someone please explain to me how "rebooting" is a more acceptable term than "rebuilding?"
Click to expand...


They should both be acceptable.  Why wouldn't they be?  (Not asking you, just in general)

It's lazy journalism at this point, where every player that leaves some clown types, ''OH!  The exodus continues...''

If the Browns had put Whitner on the trade block (and you have to guess they probably did) everyone would have been climbing over each other to say he had no value.  

They have a bunch of draft picks this year, will have a bunch next year, and should try and acquire more.  Go full youth movement.  After May 12, they can sign vet free agents to fill in the cracks at need positions, why do it now, and risk losing a comp pick?

 
massraider said:
They should both be acceptable.  Why wouldn't they be?  (Not asking you, just in general)

It's lazy journalism at this point, where every player that leaves some clown types, ''OH!  The exodus continues...''

If the Browns had put Whitner on the trade block (and you have to guess they probably did) everyone would have been climbing over each other to say he had no value.  

They have a bunch of draft picks this year, will have a bunch next year, and should try and acquire more.  Go full youth movement.  After May 12, they can sign vet free agents to fill in the cracks at need positions, why do it now, and risk losing a comp pick?
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Yep. I get it. It's just tough to accept given all we've been through. We've seen this movie more than a few times. I don't think full youth movement is the answer though. Need some veteran leadership to help mold the pups. Curious what they do come May.

 
drizzt88 said:
Coach Hue Jackson bristled at the word "rebuild" being used for the team's moves.

"Because I think rebuilding says that you're totally junking everything and starting over, and that's not what we're doing," Jackson said.
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Actually, that's exactly what they are doing.

 
MAC_32 said:
Yep. I get it. It's just tough to accept given all we've been through. We've seen this movie more than a few times. I don't think full youth movement is the answer though. Need some veteran leadership to help mold the pups. Curious what they do come May.
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There will always be some vets.  But you don't NOT get a kid because of a vet.  You gt a bunch of kids, and fill in with vets that are happy to have jobs, and work hard.  

You know what, tho?  The molding of the pups is overrated.  92 Cowboys had no vet leadership.  SB Win.  Who were the vets on Carroll's Seahawks?  SB Win.  

Get a bunch of young, hard-working talent.  

 
Bobcat10 said:
Were we one of the oldest teams last year? Cuz I still see a bunch of "veterans" on this roster. 
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Big difference between veteran and leadership. Will each meeting room have a player equipped to lead the group? It's important anywhere, but especially in a situation like this one. Can't have the blind leading the blind.

 
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massraider said:
There will always be some vets.  But you don't NOT get a kid because of a vet.  You gt a bunch of kids, and fill in with vets that are happy to have jobs, and work hard.  

You know what, tho?  The molding of the pups is overrated.  92 Cowboys had no vet leadership.  SB Win.  Who were the vets on Carroll's Seahawks?  SB Win.  

Get a bunch of young, hard-working talent.  
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To fix a systematic losing culture like this one, yes, you need leadership. There are three types of players that currently come to the Browns - paycheck chasers, washed up players who won't get offered a roster spot elsewhere, and draft picks that have no choice and are counting down the years until they can get out.

 
GordonGekko said:
Soft news trickling out from the college side, apparently Hue Jackson reached out and had a long conversation with David Shaw regarding QB1 Kevin Hogan. On most big boards, Hogan will likely end up a 4th to 6th round grab.

Other team I've heard with more than a passing interest in Hogan was Bill O'Brien/Texans.
Click to expand...
Hmnnn.


Zig Fracassi‏@ZigFracassi


Rick Neuheisel: I called Kevin Hogan to come on our @SiriusXMNFL show, but couldn't, as he's on his way to Cleveland. #Browns #NFLDraft2016
 
Maybe we can trade Thomas, Haden, and Gordon to the Titans for the #1. 

Hypothetical could never happen, but if we offered that (not saying I want to, just for fun) do you think they would take it?

 
ghostguy123 said:
Maybe we can trade Thomas, Haden, and Gordon to the Titans for the #1. 

Hypothetical could never happen, but if we offered that (not saying I want to, just for fun) do you think they would take it?
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I can't see a team that earned the No. 1 overall pick trading a valuable asset for two declining veterans (although Haden was banged up) and a suspension risk like Gordon. Not the move a first time GM would have the balls to make imo.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I can't see a team that earned the No. 1 overall pick trading a valuable asset for two declining veterans (although Haden was banged up) and a suspension risk like Gordon. Not the move a first time GM would have the balls to make imo.
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I'd do it.  

It's not the #1 pick.  It's a left tackle.  or a cornerback.  Or a defensive end.  Look at the list of #1 pick over the years.  How many would you trade for two good players, and a maybe good player?

 
massraider said:
I'd do it.  

It's not the #1 pick.  It's a left tackle.  or a cornerback.  Or a defensive end.  Look at the list of #1 pick over the years.  How many would you trade for two good players, and a maybe good player?
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There's other factors like cost control, long term benefits etc. - but admittedly it's not a no brainer rejection from a true value standpoint, but like I said a first time GM can't make a move like that.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
There's other factors like cost control, long term benefits etc. - but admittedly it's not a no brainer rejection from a true value standpoint, but like I said a first time GM can't make a move like that.
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Yeah, I feel you.  

I wonder if TEN is actually getting any action at this pick.  

 
massraider said:
I'd do it.  

It's not the #1 pick.  It's a left tackle.  or a cornerback.  Or a defensive end.  Look at the list of #1 pick over the years.  How many would you trade for two good players, and a maybe good player?
Click to expand...
Well, you also have to think what you can get with that #1 picks.  Say they trade down with San Fran for pick 7, a 2nd, and their 2017 1st.  A very plausible deal.  I can't see any way those three guys are in the same value stratosphere as those picks. 

But as for people saying it's not a move a first time GM can make, ummm, why not???  If you don't plan to take a QB, and have what you consider to be a franchise QB, I would certainly look into picking up a top 3 left tackle who has a few more pro bowl year left, an excellent corner when healthy, and a stud WR when not suspended. 

However, the Browns would also have to give up a good pick in the deal along with those players.  Probably at least pick 32.

 
GordonGekko said:
The TItans woudn't just say Yes to that trade, they'd build a fleet of Viking ships, fill them with virgins, and fatted calves and other forms of tribute like gold and jewels, set them on fire, and have all the burning ships lined up to spell Yes in the water.

That trade would be so lopsided for the Titans that the league would actually have to strip control of the Browns franchise from their current front office.

That's not a trade, that's going into the depths of prison gang rape.
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Was biting my tongue on his suggestion since the second I saw it

 
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