Coward fatally ambushes 2 NYPD, commits suicide (1 Viewer)

[avoiding injuries]

Carson Daly represented an NYPD hat on the NYE special.

 

[Jayrod]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Considering crime statistics are taken from police records.....probably a bit of correlation there.

 

[Henry Ford]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Considering crime statistics are taken from police records.....probably a bit of correlation there.

Which is why I said "actual" crime and why statistics that back this up aren't available. I'm not talking about stats - right wing media suggested a possible crime wave as a result of the NYPD pseudo-strike. It appears that's not happening.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Yea the police presence has absolutely been noticeably less since the death of the 2 cops. Basically, they are only focusing on serious incidents and not making arrests on the little things. Its interesting because even with the presence down, things have been very quiet.

Good article on it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nypds-work-stoppage-is-surreal-20141231

 

[Henry Ford]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Yea the police presence has absolutely been noticeably less since the death of the 2 cops. Basically, they are only focusing on serious incidents and not making arrests on the little things. Its interesting because even with the presence down, things have been very quiet.

Good article on it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nypds-work-stoppage-is-surreal-20141231

Thanks. I guess I'm wondering - because the NYPD has taken the Broken Window approach to crime - do the people of NYC think this is showing that they were just flat out wrong about that approach?

 

[avoiding injuries]

Poor rolling stone. It doesn't even matter what they say anymore.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Yea the police presence has absolutely been noticeably less since the death of the 2 cops. Basically, they are only focusing on serious incidents and not making arrests on the little things. Its interesting because even with the presence down, things have been very quiet.

Good article on it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nypds-work-stoppage-is-surreal-20141231

Thanks. I guess I'm wondering - because the NYPD has taken the Broken Window approach to crime - do the people of NYC think this is showing that they were just flat out wrong about that approach?

I definitely think thats what it is showing. I think this really backfired on NYPD. Its funny because everyone noticed it immediately, but noone quite knew what to make of what was going on. Its fascinating really. I do hope this continues because alot of those tactics were used to profile and were essentially giving police a bad rap. Maybe now they can focus on fixing those relationships with the community.

 

[General Tso]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

 

[parasaurolophus]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Let me see if I have this right, you say the cops have stopped arresting people so there has been a drop in reported crime?

he already clarified he was referring to actual crime and that of course the stats cant be used.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Let me see if I have this right, you say the cops have stopped arresting people so there has been a drop in reported crime?

he already clarified he was referring to actual crime and that of course the stats cant be used.

You're right, sorry.

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Considering crime statistics are taken from police records.....probably a bit of correlation there.

Which is why I said "actual" crime and why statistics that back this up aren't available. I'm not talking about stats - right wing media suggested a possible crime wave as a result of the NYPD pseudo-strike. It appears that's not happening.

How would we determine this then? Supposedly the area where Liu and Ramos were working had already seen a 33% drop thanks to the policing efforts they formed a part of. How's it going in that neighborhood, safer?

 

[parasaurolophus]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Yea the police presence has absolutely been noticeably less since the death of the 2 cops. Basically, they are only focusing on serious incidents and not making arrests on the little things. Its interesting because even with the presence down, things have been very quiet.

Good article on it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nypds-work-stoppage-is-surreal-20141231

If we set aside the fact that it is rolling stone and just look at the article, what makes it good? It really doesn't say much of anything.

I found this paragraph really strange.

It's incredibly ironic that the police have chosen to abandon quality-of-life actions like public urination tickets and open-container violations, because it's precisely these types of interactions that are at the heart of the Broken Windows polices that so infuriate residents of so-called "hot spot" neighborhoods.

I think I know what he was saying, but he picked two really bad examples. I think we can pretty much all agree that walking around with open alcohol containers and peeing in public are two things that any neighborhood with children in it doesn't need to allow. I would listen to an argument that cans should be allowed, but I hardly think that is what is upsetting people.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

 

[Henry Ford]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Let me see if I have this right, you say the cops have stopped arresting people so there has been a drop in reported crime?

he already clarified he was referring to actual crime and that of course the stats cant be used.

You're right, sorry.

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Considering crime statistics are taken from police records.....probably a bit of correlation there.

Which is why I said "actual" crime and why statistics that back this up aren't available. I'm not talking about stats - right wing media suggested a possible crime wave as a result of the NYPD pseudo-strike. It appears that's not happening.

How would we determine this then? Supposedly the area where Liu and Ramos were working had already seen a 33% drop thanks to the policing efforts they formed a part of. How's it going in that neighborhood, safer?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking for New Yorkers to chime in with their recent experiences.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Let me see if I have this right, you say the cops have stopped arresting people so there has been a drop in reported crime?

he already clarified he was referring to actual crime and that of course the stats cant be used.

You're right, sorry.

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Considering crime statistics are taken from police records.....probably a bit of correlation there.

Which is why I said "actual" crime and why statistics that back this up aren't available. I'm not talking about stats - right wing media suggested a possible crime wave as a result of the NYPD pseudo-strike. It appears that's not happening.

How would we determine this then? Supposedly the area where Liu and Ramos were working had already seen a 33% drop thanks to the policing efforts they formed a part of. How's it going in that neighborhood, safer?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking for New Yorkers to chime in with their recent experiences.

Would love to hear that too, but I can say as someone who goes up there1-2 times per year I typically feel safer in downtown Manhattan than I do almost anywhere in NO.

 

[Henry Ford]

One NYPD Officer takes this week as an opportunity to improve community relations. Wait, no - the other thing. The one where he chokes a subway worker.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Yea the police presence has absolutely been noticeably less since the death of the 2 cops. Basically, they are only focusing on serious incidents and not making arrests on the little things. Its interesting because even with the presence down, things have been very quiet.

Good article on it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nypds-work-stoppage-is-surreal-20141231

If we set aside the fact that it is rolling stone and just look at the article, what makes it good? It really doesn't say much of anything.

I found this paragraph really strange.

It's incredibly ironic that the police have chosen to abandon quality-of-life actions like public urination tickets and open-container violations, because it's precisely these types of interactions that are at the heart of the Broken Windows polices that so infuriate residents of so-called "hot spot" neighborhoods.

I think I know what he was saying, but he picked two really bad examples. I think we can pretty much all agree that walking around with open alcohol containers and peeing in public are two things that any neighborhood with children in it doesn't need to allow. I would listen to an argument that cans should be allowed, but I hardly think that is what is upsetting people.

Yea i would agree those examples arent great. I just thought it was a good summary of the situation.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

One NYPD Officer takes this week as an opportunity to improve community relations. Wait, no - the other thing. The one where he chokes a subway worker.

... after she tried to grab his cellphone. The officer told investigators the woman cursed at him after he asked her a question, and grabbed his phone to prevent him from taking her picture, police alleged.

I know there are examples, but gosh it keeps coming up - people resisting arrest, surprising cops, reaching for this, reaching for that on the cop's person.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

 

[Henry Ford]

One NYPD Officer takes this week as an opportunity to improve community relations. Wait, no - the other thing. The one where he chokes a subway worker.

... after she tried to grab his cellphone. The officer told investigators the woman cursed at him after he asked her a question, and grabbed his phone to prevent him from taking her picture, police alleged.

I know there are examples, but gosh it keeps coming up - people resisting arrest, surprising cops, reaching for this, reaching for that on the cop's person.

It's not like he was in uniform. Nobody knew it was a cop until they released the subway surveillance video looking for him.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

One NYPD Officer takes this week as an opportunity to improve community relations. Wait, no - the other thing. The one where he chokes a subway worker.

... after she tried to grab his cellphone. The officer told investigators the woman cursed at him after he asked her a question, and grabbed his phone to prevent him from taking her picture, police alleged.

I know there are examples, but gosh it keeps coming up - people resisting arrest, surprising cops, reaching for this, reaching for that on the cop's person.

It's not like he was in uniform. Nobody knew it was a cop until they released the subway surveillance video looking for him.

Ah geez you're right, terrible but strange incident, wonder why he was trying to take her picture.

 

[glock]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

Not that I disagree, but to be clear- Garnier was selling "loosies" in front of stores that sold cigarettes for some time. You may disagree with the law, but I'm sure the shop owners don't.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Let me see if I have this right, you say the cops have stopped arresting people so there has been a drop in reported crime?

he already clarified he was referring to actual crime and that of course the stats cant be used.

You're right, sorry.

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Considering crime statistics are taken from police records.....probably a bit of correlation there.

Which is why I said "actual" crime and why statistics that back this up aren't available. I'm not talking about stats - right wing media suggested a possible crime wave as a result of the NYPD pseudo-strike. It appears that's not happening.

How would we determine this then? Supposedly the area where Liu and Ramos were working had already seen a 33% drop thanks to the policing efforts they formed a part of. How's it going in that neighborhood, safer?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking for New Yorkers to chime in with their recent experiences.

Would love to hear that too, but I can say as someone who goes up there1-2 times per year I typically feel safer in downtown Manhattan than I do almost anywhere in NO.

I havent been to that neighborhood recently, but im in NYC every day(i live in NJ). There has virtually been no difference safety wise as far as i can hear. Really the only difference is less of a police presence.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

Not that I disagree, but to be clear- Garnier was selling "loosies" in front of stores that sold cigarettes for some time. You may disagree with the law, but I'm sure the shop owners don't.

True, maybe the shop owners called the police, and maybe the police were doing their job; but that just gets back to what all this has to with Liu and Ramos or Garner for that matter.

ETA - I think my point was just that if there is going to be a discussion of not busting people for MJ and other harmless "loitering" type activities you see in Broken Windows then the city should start with what got Garner killed.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Let me see if I have this right, you say the cops have stopped arresting people so there has been a drop in reported crime?

he already clarified he was referring to actual crime and that of course the stats cant be used.

You're right, sorry.

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Considering crime statistics are taken from police records.....probably a bit of correlation there.

Which is why I said "actual" crime and why statistics that back this up aren't available. I'm not talking about stats - right wing media suggested a possible crime wave as a result of the NYPD pseudo-strike. It appears that's not happening.

How would we determine this then? Supposedly the area where Liu and Ramos were working had already seen a 33% drop thanks to the policing efforts they formed a part of. How's it going in that neighborhood, safer?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking for New Yorkers to chime in with their recent experiences.

Would love to hear that too, but I can say as someone who goes up there1-2 times per year I typically feel safer in downtown Manhattan than I do almost anywhere in NO.

I havent been to that neighborhood recently, but im in NYC every day(i live in NJ). There has virtually been no difference safety wise as far as i can hear. Really the only difference is less of a police presence.

Do you think the city was safer or less safe vs before when these police practices were started? I'm guessing or thinking that was the early 90s.

 

[Henry Ford]

One NYPD Officer takes this week as an opportunity to improve community relations. Wait, no - the other thing. The one where he chokes a subway worker.

... after she tried to grab his cellphone. The officer told investigators the woman cursed at him after he asked her a question, and grabbed his phone to prevent him from taking her picture, police alleged.

I know there are examples, but gosh it keeps coming up - people resisting arrest, surprising cops, reaching for this, reaching for that on the cop's person.

It's not like he was in uniform. Nobody knew it was a cop until they released the subway surveillance video looking for him.

Ah geez you're right, terrible but strange incident, wonder why he was trying to take her picture.

That's his story. It's not part of the story released by the injured worker or her coworker, who claims to have pulled the guy off of her.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

He was killed because a cop used excessive force and put an illegal choke hold on him. The reason they were interacting with him could have been any law really. if that was legal he likely could have been profiled for something else. Regardless of the laws that are enforced, the issue here is the cop putting an illegal chokehold on him. The root of the issue is why he felt the need to use such excessive force and whether there is a problem within the law enforcement institution that fosters/promotes/encourages this type of behavior.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

It's my understanding - and I don't have a source for this other than left-wing publications that don't have good sourcing for the information - that New York has had a tremendous drop in actual crime since the police stopped arresting people unless absolutely necessary. Any New Yorkers who can shed some light on whether that's true?

Let me see if I have this right, you say the cops have stopped arresting people so there has been a drop in reported crime?

he already clarified he was referring to actual crime and that of course the stats cant be used.

You're right, sorry.

Which is why I said "actual" crime and why statistics that back this up aren't available. I'm not talking about stats - right wing media suggested a possible crime wave as a result of the NYPD pseudo-strike. It appears that's not happening.

How would we determine this then? Supposedly the area where Liu and Ramos were working had already seen a 33% drop thanks to the policing efforts they formed a part of. How's it going in that neighborhood, safer?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking for New Yorkers to chime in with their recent experiences.

Would love to hear that too, but I can say as someone who goes up there1-2 times per year I typically feel safer in downtown Manhattan than I do almost anywhere in NO.

I havent been to that neighborhood recently, but im in NYC every day(i live in NJ). There has virtually been no difference safety wise as far as i can hear. Really the only difference is less of a police presence.

Do you think the city was safer or less safe vs before when these police practices were started? I'm guessing or thinking that was the early 90s.

The city is way safer now. There is no doubt about that. Its one of the safest cities in the world. And back in the 80s it was much worse. Granted me and my friends would go into the city as HS kids in the 90s. It was definitely a place that was scary. Now, you can virtually go anywhere in manhattan at any time and be completely safe.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

One NYPD Officer takes this week as an opportunity to improve community relations. Wait, no - the other thing. The one where he chokes a subway worker.

... after she tried to grab his cellphone. The officer told investigators the woman cursed at him after he asked her a question, and grabbed his phone to prevent him from taking her picture, police alleged.

I know there are examples, but gosh it keeps coming up - people resisting arrest, surprising cops, reaching for this, reaching for that on the cop's person.

It's not like he was in uniform. Nobody knew it was a cop until they released the subway surveillance video looking for him.

Ah geez you're right, terrible but strange incident, wonder why he was trying to take her picture.

That's his story. It's not part of the story released by the injured worker or her coworker, who claims to have pulled the guy off of her.

Odd, they don't exactly say what she claims happened. I wonder if he jumped the turnstile.

 

[glock]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

He was killed because a cop used excessive force and put an illegal choke hold on him. The reason they were interacting with him could have been any law really. if that was legal he likely could have been profiled for something else. Regardless of the laws that are enforced, the issue here is the cop putting an illegal chokehold on him. The root of the issue is why he felt the need to use such excessive force and whether there is a problem within the law enforcement institution that fosters/promotes/encourages this type of behavior.

True.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

He was killed because a cop used excessive force and put an illegal choke hold on him. The reason they were interacting with him could have been any law really. if that was legal he likely could have been profiled for something else. Regardless of the laws that are enforced, the issue here is the cop putting an illegal chokehold on him. The root of the issue is why he felt the need to use such excessive force and whether there is a problem within the law enforcement institution that fosters/promotes/encourages this type of behavior.

Pinky I was following up on the discussion of Broken Windows and MJ; if you're talking not enforcing meaningless laws to prevent unnecessary conflict I'd say start with the one that started the Garner incident.

 

[Henry Ford]

One NYPD Officer takes this week as an opportunity to improve community relations. Wait, no - the other thing. The one where he chokes a subway worker.

... after she tried to grab his cellphone. The officer told investigators the woman cursed at him after he asked her a question, and grabbed his phone to prevent him from taking her picture, police alleged.

I know there are examples, but gosh it keeps coming up - people resisting arrest, surprising cops, reaching for this, reaching for that on the cop's person.

It's not like he was in uniform. Nobody knew it was a cop until they released the subway surveillance video looking for him.

Ah geez you're right, terrible but strange incident, wonder why he was trying to take her picture.

That's his story. It's not part of the story released by the injured worker or her coworker, who claims to have pulled the guy off of her.

Odd, they don't exactly say what she claims happened. I wonder if he jumped the turnstile.

It was 2:30 a.m. and they were giving the riders on the platform information regarding changes in service of the train they were waiting for.

I guess it's possible he was drunk and angry about the service change. And a jerk. But we may never know.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Local NYC article from 7/28/14:

Heather Mac Donald
De Blasio’s Policing Dilemma
The Gotham mayor must decide whether to listen to his police commissioner or the New York Times.

New York mayor Bill de Blasio is facing the most momentous decision of his still-new mayoralty: whether to take his public safety cues from the New York Times editorial board and sundry anti-cop activists, or from his police commissioner, William Bratton. Pressure has mounted on de Blasio from his base over the last week to repudiate the strategy known as broken-windows policing. That pressure follows the death of a man who resisted arrest for selling untaxed cigarettes, an arrest (minus the death) that exemplifies broken-windows or public-order enforcement. De Blasio has been on vacation since last Sunday, but now that he is back in City Hall, his handling of the growing controversy over Eric Garner’s death will reveal what the city will be like over the next four years.

The anti-cop forces have shifted the focus of attention from the tactics used to subdue Garner after he resisted arrest—which is where attention should stay—to the very enforcement of misdemeanor laws themselves, such as the one against illegal cigarette sales. The New York Times’s lead editorial on Saturday, “Broken Windows, Broken Lives,” exemplifies this opportunistic turn against quality-of-life enforcement: “How terrible it would be if Eric Garner died for a theory, for the idea that aggressive police enforcement against minor offenders . . . is the way to a safer, more orderly city.” The Times suggested that the total number of arrests last year—394,539—was too high, without enlightening us as to what a proper number would be. (Connoisseurs of the “stop, question, and frisk” debates will recognize this tactic.) Taking up its favorite racial theme, the Times claimed that broken-windows policing has “pointlessly burdened” young black and Hispanic males with criminal records. The link between broken-windows policing and greater safety is only “hypothetical,” the editorial announced, ignoring evidence to the contrary. The paper ended with a condescending slight toward Bratton and an ultimatum for de Blasio: “Mr. Bratton should not be a once-innovative general fighting the last war. Mr. de Blasio was elected on a promise of being a transformative mayor who would recognize the times we live in and respect the communities whose residents fear the police. Now is the time to show it.” (Those “communities,” by the way, whom the Times claims “fear the police,” are filled with law-abiding residents who only feel safe when the police are around.)

A host of local politicians are also arguing that broken-windows policing is no longer necessary and is racially unjust. These are many of the same politicians who a month ago were calling for 1,000 more cops to quell this year’s spike in gun violence. In the first six months of 2014, 611 people were shot (more than three a day), a 10 percent increase over last year. This shooting rise, exclusively in black and Hispanic neighborhoods, drew incessant media coverage. But now the politicians from those high-crime areas have decided that the city is more than safe enough. “There is no logic to the explosion of arrest activity,” Hakeem Jeffries, a Brooklyn Congressman representing violence-prone Brownsville and East New York, complained to the New York Times. Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams, whose fabricated calumny of Police Commissioner Ray Kelly featured prominently in the 2013 court decision overturning New York’s stop-and-frisk policies, questioned “whether we still need these arrests . . . now that the [broken] windows are no longer broken.” Tell that to the families of the two children shot during the first weekend of July, part of a weekend bloodbath that included four dead and more than 20 wounded. Proactive policing, whether public-order enforcement or pedestrian stops, is integral to quelling such violence, by intervening in lawless behavior early on and sending a message in communities where social controls have broken down that the police are still in charge.

Bratton has recently stressed that police attention to public disorder does not necessarily require an arrest. He is right to do so. Officers can use other means to enforce lawful behavior, whether pouring out an open bottle of whiskey or telling a trespasser or aggressive panhandler to move on. (Garner, however, was a habitual offender, and so may have exhausted his credit with the local Staten Island officers.) But encouraging officers to use their discretion in how to enforce the law is a far cry from discrediting law enforcement entirely. It is hard enough to persuade cops that public-order maintenance matters; they do not need encouragement from the advocates to go back to purely reactive policing.

Despite having run a demagogic campaign against the New York Police Department, De Blasio’s choice of Bratton to lead the department showed that he understood that his mayoralty would be judged above all on his ability to maintain New York’s record-breaking crime drop. He wisely selected the most respected policing innovator in the world to preserve New York’s status as America’s safest big city. It is now incumbent upon de Blasio to stand by Bratton’s policy choices. Ironically, Bratton started his second tour of duty in New York promising to increase quality-of-life enforcement in the subways, and he had the backing of de Blasio in doing so. Immediately after Garner’s tragic death, de Blasio again signaled his support for misdemeanor enforcement, saying that the police should in fact enforce laws against the sale of single untaxed cigarettes, if “there’s a community concern.” But the recent escalation in protest activity will only grow in the weeks and months to come. De Blasio must reassure Bratton and the public that he respects Bratton’s expertise and will back him unequivocally in his policing strategies. If he cannot do so and instead places racial politics above the public good, including the good of minority neighborhoods, he does not deserve the commissioner that he chose and may ultimately have to find himself another one.

http://www.city-journal.org/2014/eon0728hm.html

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I am just going to throw one other thing out there:

Staten Island.

NYC as we know is not some homogenous city, there is a myriad panoply of neighborhoods nested within neighborhoods.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/garner-case-puts-staten-islands-racial-divide-in-spotlight/2014/12/07/12d1d6d6-7d7e-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

Staten Island, often referred to as the “forgotten borough,” is the most insular of New York City’s five — there is no subway line connecting it to the other boroughs, and the quickest route to Manhattan is usually the ferry. That separateness has bred a fierce loyalty to one’s own geography and social group within the communities on the island, too. And none could be more different — and divided — than the north shore, where Garner lived and died, and the south, where a police car keeps a 24-hour watch across from Pantaleo’s house.

Describing this north-south divide, one Tompkinsville man, who identified himself by the name Remarkable Blue, said simply:

“There are two Staten Islands. This side and that side.”

 

[PinkydaPimp]

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

He was killed because a cop used excessive force and put an illegal choke hold on him. The reason they were interacting with him could have been any law really. if that was legal he likely could have been profiled for something else. Regardless of the laws that are enforced, the issue here is the cop putting an illegal chokehold on him. The root of the issue is why he felt the need to use such excessive force and whether there is a problem within the law enforcement institution that fosters/promotes/encourages this type of behavior.

Pinky I was following up on the discussion of Broken Windows and MJ; if you're talking not enforcing meaningless laws to prevent unnecessary conflict I'd say start with the one that started the Garner incident.

Well what im saying is that the root of the issue is greater than enforcing/not enforcing meaningless laws. I just wanted to make it clear that this law wasn't the cause of him dying. So focusing on fixing these laws is taking time away from fixing the root issues. Granted fixing those laws may help in some ways. But again, its not going to resolve the root of the problem.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

He was killed because a cop used excessive force and put an illegal choke hold on him. The reason they were interacting with him could have been any law really. if that was legal he likely could have been profiled for something else. Regardless of the laws that are enforced, the issue here is the cop putting an illegal chokehold on him. The root of the issue is why he felt the need to use such excessive force and whether there is a problem within the law enforcement institution that fosters/promotes/encourages this type of behavior.

Pinky I was following up on the discussion of Broken Windows and MJ; if you're talking not enforcing meaningless laws to prevent unnecessary conflict I'd say start with the one that started the Garner incident.

Well what im saying is that the root of the issue is greater than enforcing/not enforcing meaningless laws. I just wanted to make it clear that this law wasn't the cause of him dying. So focusing on fixing these laws is taking time away from fixing the root issues. Granted fixing those laws may help in some ways. But again, its not going to resolve the root of the problem.

What about the US Attorney, why can't he prosecute the cops who killed Garner? Why can't he handle these situations in general? We're talking civil rights violations, right?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Pinky we have had serious civil rights violations here. In two major cases the local DA - a black Democrat by the way - refused to prosecute. The US Attorney came in and prosecuted the cops, these were killings by the way. Obtained convictions too.

I have no idea why that can't happen here and in other incidents.

Also does NYC have an Inspector General with power to inspect the police and is there an independent Police Monitor?

These seem like three solutions to this problem in NYC, in Ferguson, wherever these cases of police misconduct are happening but I don't hear anyone discussing them.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

Not sure. But the root of what happened to garner wasnt a cigarette law. Changing just the Cigarette law wont prevent this from happening again.

It would have prevented Eric Garner from getting killed and police busting people for this ridiculous, meaningless (and injust) crime.

He was killed because a cop used excessive force and put an illegal choke hold on him. The reason they were interacting with him could have been any law really. if that was legal he likely could have been profiled for something else. Regardless of the laws that are enforced, the issue here is the cop putting an illegal chokehold on him. The root of the issue is why he felt the need to use such excessive force and whether there is a problem within the law enforcement institution that fosters/promotes/encourages this type of behavior.

Pinky I was following up on the discussion of Broken Windows and MJ; if you're talking not enforcing meaningless laws to prevent unnecessary conflict I'd say start with the one that started the Garner incident.

Well what im saying is that the root of the issue is greater than enforcing/not enforcing meaningless laws. I just wanted to make it clear that this law wasn't the cause of him dying. So focusing on fixing these laws is taking time away from fixing the root issues. Granted fixing those laws may help in some ways. But again, its not going to resolve the root of the problem.

What about the US Attorney, why can't he prosecute the cops who killed Garner? Why can't he handle these situations in general? We're talking civil rights violations, right?

Those are great questions.

 

[El Floppo]

Do you think the city was safer or less safe vs before when these police practices were started? I'm guessing or thinking that was the early 90s.

I got here in 1986 and have lived in Manhattan- upper-upper west side the first 15 years, e village, lower east side the last.

it was the wild freaking west here until the early/mid 90s when Giuliani put his boot down; if you weren't vigilant you got punished: robbed, mugged, just generally mayhemmed. I do think the broken windows (what I remember being called "quality of life") crimes being more policed have made a difference in feeling overall safer and making the city easier to live in and visit.

That said- it's a simplistic viewpoint that ignores a lot of contributing factors that made those first years so dangerous: crack, homelessness (coinciding with IIRC, a federal- Reagan- change of wording/definitions that put a lot of formerly psych-institutionalized folk on the streets practically overnight) and joblessness at the fore-front. Don't know, or know enough to say, that broken windows fixed those things. And those were the things that, once fixed, has led to this city becoming the annoying playground of irresponsible and careless 20-somethings it is today.

fwiw- I haven't noticed a decrease in police presence, nor have I noticed any increase in crime the last month.

also- the protesters have walked in front of my building numerous times and are often out-manned by police (outside of the first few days). both groups have been seemingly well behaved. was talking with a guy who does work for my MIL in VA (a real country guy) who just assumed that the protesters were behaving in NYC the same as they did in MO and was astonished that they weren't.

 

[Sammy3469]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

After the past 3 weeks I'm shocked anyone thinks the police would listen to anything the mayor said. Also NYC is a democracy and the city counsel passes laws.

 

[Sammy3469]

Pinky we have had serious civil rights violations here. In two major cases the local DA - a black Democrat by the way - refused to prosecute. The US Attorney came in and prosecuted the cops, these were killings by the way. Obtained convictions too.

I have no idea why that can't happen here and in other incidents.

Also does NYC have an Inspector General with power to inspect the police and is there an independent Police Monitor?

These seem like three solutions to this problem in NYC, in Ferguson, wherever these cases of police misconduct are happening but I don't hear anyone discussing them.

No inspector general...was actually one of the things DeBlasio campaigned on.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Pinky we have had serious civil rights violations here. In two major cases the local DA - a black Democrat by the way - refused to prosecute. The US Attorney came in and prosecuted the cops, these were killings by the way. Obtained convictions too.

I have no idea why that can't happen here and in other incidents.

Also does NYC have an Inspector General with power to inspect the police and is there an independent Police Monitor?

These seem like three solutions to this problem in NYC, in Ferguson, wherever these cases of police misconduct are happening but I don't hear anyone discussing them.

No inspector general...was actually one of the things DeBlasio campaigned on.

Is he still raising that? Because he should. And he should add a Police Monitor which would be part of the office.

This is the site for the NO Police Monitor.

http://www.nolaipm.org/main/index.php?page=home

This is a way that people could work towards a solution.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

After the past 3 weeks I'm shocked anyone thinks the police would listen to anything the mayor said. Also NYC is a democracy and the city counsel passes laws.

As I said it's just part of the discussion about marijuana arrests and Broken Windows policies. I understand that shop owners don't want people selling things outside their store but I don't think this policy deserves enforcement to the point of arrest. Garner could have been shoed along, told to move, whatever, but even if he hadn't resisted and been killed then he still did not deserve to go to jail over this.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

NYPD No. 3's order to crack down on selling loose cigarettes led to chokehold death of Eric Garner EXCLUSIVE: Chief of Department Philip Banks made the order to investigate complaints over the sale of untaxed cigarettes in Tompkinsville, Staten Island, a source told The News. That fierce crack down resulted in the lethal manhandling of Eric Garner.An order to crack down on the illegal sale of 75-cent cigarettes in Staten Island came directly from Police Headquarters, setting off a chain of events that ended in Eric Garner’s death, the Daily News has learned.

Chief of Department Philip Banks — the highest-ranking uniformed cop in the city — sent a sergeant from his office at 1 Police Plaza in July to investigate complaints of untaxed cigarettes being sold in the Tompkinsville neighborhood, a source close to the investigation told The News.

“(Banks) set the whole thing in motion,” the source said.

The sale of loosies had been on Banks’ radar since at least March, when it was discussed at a meeting at Police Headquarters about quality-of-life issues, a police source said.

Banks’ office also conducted surveillance on Bay St. and took pictures, one of which shows three men believed to be involved in an illegal cigarette sale. The News reviewed the photograph and Garner is not in it.

At around the same time, on March 27, a caller to the city’s 311 hotline complained about the issue, saying a group of men had been selling untaxed cigarettes, and sometimes marijuana, on Bay St. every day for the past three years, a second source said.

The caller identified one of the sellers as “a man named Eric.”

The next day, Garner was arrested for selling untaxed cigarettes, one of three pending cases before his death.

Sometime in early July, a memo was sent to the Staten Island borough command, a source said. The memo stressing the need to address quality-of-life issues was then forwarded to bosses in the 120th Precinct for “immediate attention,” according to the source.

On the afternoon of July 17, cops spotted Garner on Bay St. again. Witnesses said Garner, 43, had just broken up a fight. Cops say the 350-pound father of six was selling untaxed cigarettes.

NYPD spokesman Stephen Davis suggested there was nothing unusual about police focusing on low-level offenses. Cops routinely track chronic conditions, he said.

...

A high-ranking police official agreed.

“We address behavior and conditions and not people,” the official said. “That’s what we do across the city, and one of those conditions is the sale of untaxed cigarettes.”

The official said that on the day Garner died two of the five cops were told to keep an eye on precinct conditions. That included cigarette sales, open container and pot peddling....

The city’s crackdown against untaxed cigarettes in Staten Island intensified on March 27 when the city’s 311 system received a complaint about individual smokes being sold in front of a clothing store on Bay St. near Victory Blvd., just four buildings down from where Garner was killed.

The caller said illegal cigarette sellers set up shop outside the 4 Brothers Clothing on Bay St. for three years and were selling loose cigarettes every day.

Depending on the time of day, marijuana was also being sold, said the caller, who rattled off the names of several suspects, including “a man named Eric,” a source said. ...

But the 311 tip made its way to Banks’ office where “the untaxed cigarette problem on Bay St.” was discussed, a source said. A day after the 311 call was made, cops arrested Garner for selling cigarettes without proper tax stamps.

Cops found him in possession of 23 sealed packs of untaxed cigarettes and one open pack, officials said. He was arrested with untaxed cigarettes again on May 7, officials said.

Then, a week before his death, Garner was “warned and admonished” about selling untaxed cigarettes, a police source said.

...

Garner’s devastated son was stunned to learn that the NYPD’s focus on illegal cigarette sales led to the fatal clash.

“I don’t even know what to say,” said Garner’s son Eric Snipes, 19, said on Wednesday. “I don’t even know.”

“That just messes up my head,” he said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/wife-man-filmed-chokehold-arrested-article-1.1893790

So not on De Blasio, but someone is responsible for the law being enforced. Who the hell cares about untaxed cigarettes.

 

[shadyridr]

I am just going to throw one other thing out there:

Staten Island.

NYC as we know is not some homogenous city, there is a myriad panoply of neighborhoods nested within neighborhoods.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/garner-case-puts-staten-islands-racial-divide-in-spotlight/2014/12/07/12d1d6d6-7d7e-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

Staten Island, often referred to as the “forgotten borough,” is the most insular of New York City’s five — there is no subway line connecting it to the other boroughs, and the quickest route to Manhattan is usually the ferry. That separateness has bred a fierce loyalty to one’s own geography and social group within the communities on the island, too. And none could be more different — and divided — than the north shore, where Garner lived and died, and the south, where a police car keeps a 24-hour watch across from Pantaleo’s house.

Describing this north-south divide, one Tompkinsville man, who identified himself by the name Remarkable Blue, said simply:

“There are two Staten Islands. This side and that side.”

yep, without a doubt

 

[whiskey7]

It's a little too early to render a verdict on the Broken Windows approach. It was extremely successful in turning NYC around in the 80's and 90's. Valid question if it went to far, though. It's going to be very tough to measure any type of decline associated with police backing off the broken window policing. It's more of a gradual decline. People who feel more emboldened to light up a joint on the street may want to see how far they can push the envelope. As we've seen recently, there's a very fine line between order and chaos.

Personally I think the laws need to be relaxed countrywide with regard to marijuana. People resent the hell out of cops for enforcing such a BS law. That was at the heart of the Delray Beach incident. I also think the random stop and frisk is garbage as well.

agreed. Actually, i believe marijuana was decriminalized in NYC recently. Its now the equivalent of a fine. Should be like that everywhere.

Wait a second, can we stick to what is relevant? There is anger in NYC over what happened to Eric Garner. He was busted for selling a single cigarette. Now that is a bs law, that should go back to the mayor, shouldn't it?

And by all accounts Liu and Ramos were beloved cops who were doing their job well, made their area safer in an appropriate manner, and were appreciated in the neighborhood they worked in.

There are laws, and there are the enforcement of laws. Its obviously easier to tell cops not to enforce these minor infractions then changing the laws. As for changing the laws, i'm not sure whether that can be changed at the city, state or federal level.

Isn't the cigarette tax a NYC law?

At any rate, fine, the mayor should instruct or ask the NYPD to not enforce this truly stupid single cigarette sale law, which ultimately was at the root of what happened to Garner, which in turn has generated so much anger.

After the past 3 weeks I'm shocked anyone thinks the police would listen to anything the mayor said. Also NYC is a democracy and the city counsel passes laws.

As I said it's just part of the discussion about marijuana arrests and Broken Windows policies. I understand that shop owners don't want people selling things outside their store but I don't think this policy deserves enforcement to the point of arrest. Garner could have been shoed along, told to move, whatever, but even if he hadn't resisted and been killed then he still did not deserve to go to jail over this.

Garner reportedly had been arrested 8 times (of 30 total arrests) for this particular type of offense and had 3 open cases (and was observed that day) for selling untaxed smokes. At what point do we say this is a guy who repeatedly refuses to obey the law (even if that law may seem trivial) and not just shoe him along?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Whiskey there are separate parallel discussions.

Garner resisted arrest.

Garner had 22 non cig related arrests per your post above - were any of those others for dangerous or harmful activity? If so that is Broken Windows / QOL policing is supposed to catch, bad guys doing little things in the midst of other harmful stuff they're doing. ( not my impression about Garner though).

Excessive use of force.

I view this offense far below busting someone for selling pot in the street, fir graffiti, for nuisance stuff. To me someone should not be busted for selling loose cigs, ever. Shouldn't do it in front if a store but you also shouldn't be dragged down to jail for it.