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Keto II (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Nugget
- Start date
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I’m open to it. Or the combination of high fat-high carb. It seems counterintuitive (to laymen like myself) that one could get fat eating high fat and then lose weight also eating high fat.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I know you’re joking but what’s interesting about this debate is for most of us in here it doesn’t matter - we either were or are fat. They are debating what makes us fat - most of us are trying to stop being fat. Unless I haven’t followed correctly, Maurile and Guyenet both see no big issue with Keto as a strategy to lose weight- just don’t demonize (good) carbs as evil for everyone.
I tend to agree with that - as I’ve lost more and more I’ve started adding in berries and sweet potatoes and beans. I think there’s value in doing so. It’s an good thought exercise to wonder if I wouldn’t have been fat if I ate high carb but low fat. Maybe, but we have an obesity epidemic going on and we need to focus on getting people to stop eating refined carbs (sugar) and I’m fine if the recommendation is no high fat - high carb foods.
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
I'll be checking out the JRE show with them, too, now. Thanks for the heads up. I went from the potato diet and vegan to keto. Keto is way easier to maintain for me, because it fits how I want to eat and I don't feel like I am depriving myself.
Both work. Both gave me a lot of energy and less soreness/inflammation in my body. Both helped me lose weight in big chunks. Reading the proponents of both sides, I kind of suspected for a while that it's the combination of excessive protein, too much fat (especially bad fats) and bad carbs (processed, simple carbs and sugars) that has caused the spike in obesity and diabetes and all the other maladies that are epidemics in the USA. Both sides have merit.
what I have to do is get over the inherent bias I have that somehow a plant-based approach is "better" and figure out the science of it all. Or at least, keep up to speed on who is leading the debate for each side. I think there's a lot of hyperbole and marketing involved from people on both sides, as well as a lot of well-meaning inflammatory passion.
Both work. Both gave me a lot of energy and less soreness/inflammation in my body. Both helped me lose weight in big chunks. Reading the proponents of both sides, I kind of suspected for a while that it's the combination of excessive protein, too much fat (especially bad fats) and bad carbs (processed, simple carbs and sugars) that has caused the spike in obesity and diabetes and all the other maladies that are epidemics in the USA. Both sides have merit.
what I have to do is get over the inherent bias I have that somehow a plant-based approach is "better" and figure out the science of it all. Or at least, keep up to speed on who is leading the debate for each side. I think there's a lot of hyperbole and marketing involved from people on both sides, as well as a lot of well-meaning inflammatory passion.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I watched some of Rogan's debate with Kahn (vegan) vs. Kresser (low carb). One thing that I think both agreed to is not being fooled in to thinking one size fits all. I think there's no doubt there's multiple ways to skin the cat and I wish most of these guys would emphasize that finding something that you can live with and follow is probably more important than whether you eat some meat or a little natural sugar or some rice/potato or a little healthy fat. Nobody is going to eat a perfect diet even if it existed AND we could all agree on it (which I don't think it does and I don't think we will). I think those of us who have been big proponents of Keto are saying is - hey, this seems to work really well and some/most of you can probably follow it. There's zero chance I could do a vegan diet and be happy and get the results (because I would fall off the wagon).
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
You've read more on this than me, but the thing I am concerned about with people going on Keto is if there will be a findings eventually of long term health problems correlated with the diet. Even skinny people get heart disease and cancers, for example. My understanding (I could be wrong) is this is a bit of an unknown for Keto.
Perhaps a more balanced diet based on lean meats, legumes, whole grains, fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, healthy oils, etc. would be better. I'm interested in your thoughts on this. Of course, as you mention, finding something that works to achieve and maintain a healthy weight is a consideration regardless.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Definitely something I have thought about and do think about - my reasoning at this point is that my diet was so bad it's almost impossible for someone to convince me that what I'm doing isn't better and probably a whole lot better. I've lost 80 pounds, my blood work all looks good, my BP is 110/70, I feel great and have tons of energy (except I've been sick lately). However, I could drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow. I've mentioned that there's two tests I want to do to get an idea of how likely I am for a heart attack - I mentioned them both in Otis' thread - Lipoprotein A and a CACS score. Those are two things that can answer some questions around heart disease. Cancer is always a concern but again, my diet was so bad previously that I'm again assuming that what I'm doing has to be better. I was on the path to diabetes - for folks that either aren't overweight or have never been overweight then I think a balanced diet that you mention does make the most sense.
I'm hopeful but not confident that this is a transition for me from high carb, lots of sugar, lots of fat to low carb, high fat to something that isn't as extreme but still sustainable for me.
It is unknown because, as with veganism, there are no cultures that have traditionally subsisted on ketogenic diets. (Not even the Inuits.) So the long-term effects are somewhat unknown.
My biggest concern with long-term keto would be the (usual) lack of fiber and resistant starch. It is possible to eat a ketogenic diet that includes plenty of fiber, but my anecdotal impression is that many people don't.
This shouldn't be surprising. It's obviously true with carbohydrate as well: plenty of people gain weight eating high-carb diets, but extremely high-carb diets are also among the most successful for weight loss as well (e.g., the rice diet, the potato diet, a vegan diet...).
In rats, I think the easiest way to induce type 2 diabetes is to give them unlimited access to human junk food, which is high fat and high carb. If we stick to rat chow rather than human food, I believe the high-fat chow is the preferred way to do it.
Type 2 diabetes seems to be caused by a prolonged positive energy balance -- i.e., caloric surplus. I don't think the type of calories matters nearly as much as the quantity. But this is where somebody like Chris Kresser or Chris Masterjohn or somebody who's actually studied it should take over the explanation.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Agree - I think for me this is where the sustainability part comes in - there's lots of people who just can't do low carb, it's easy for me. Low fat would be difficult for me, low protein would be the hardest of the 3 - just based on how I eat. Since I've started I think I've been too high protein and not high enough fat (for doing Keto that is). I was to decrease my fat intake and increase my good carbs and keep protein down. My concern is getting that balance right and eating enough calories.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
@Juxtatarot - as Maurile mentions in the Rogan thread the podcast has been posted. I've listened to about 2/3 of it so far. My takeaways:
As this relates to Keto eating and dieting - I think both of these guys would say keep on keeping on, especially if it's working for you and you can stick to it. So in that regard, I think it's good news for the folks in this thread.
- These guys really don't like each other and it shows - and it's unfortunate because I felt like it was personal for both of them and took away from the discussion
- Both guys are coming across as #######s - neither sounds like somebody that I'd want to go have a beer with, maybe that's not we want from our dietary science people but part of making a difference is getting people to listen to you - I'm not sure I want to listen to either of these guys
- I'm coming in with some bias based on what's worked for me but I wasn't impressed with Guyenet (so far) - I was expecting to wowed and maybe that's my fault based on expectations
- On the actual science it seemed to come down to either the interpretation of studies or what I'll call chicken and the egg - in particular the idea that fatness is driven by the brain or by the body. Is it the brain driving it or is it the brain reacting to the body - I came away from that part saying (does it really matter to most of us??). Also, leptin - is insulin driving the fat to the cells which then causes the leptin to rise.
- Taubes seems to be an absolutist on this and this is where I think it comes apart for him - it seems Guyenet even said at one point that for some folks that insulin gene issues can cause body fatness. That implied to me that Guyenet is saying the brain controls it most of the time (or he hypothesizes most of the time) but acknowledges that is not always the case - I may need to relisten to that part but it struck me as an important point of agreement between them.
- It seems that the whole idea behind both of them is hormonal - I think that's important because I do think that helps people realize that this isn't a willpower issue. Taubes pushes that idea on Guyenet and it's somewhat unfair but I agree with his premise that it's more about set point and insulin and other stuff before you get to will power
- Ultimately, I still come away saying I'm not sure how practical this argument is for most people. Guyenet basically even starts by saying he's not anti-low carb and that low carbs diets are a fine tool for weight loss and diabetes control.
- I want to go reread parts of Jason Fung's book because from what I recall he seems to have kind of the middle ground between these two. Fung isn't as much of a low-carb zealot as an insulin zealot. And the whole insulin discussion does seem to be another chicken and the egg debate
- They spent a lot of time talking about overfeeding in these studies - has there not been a study done where they don't overfeed but keep calories constant but just change the macronutrients? It seems that would be a relatively easy thing to do or am I missing something?
- So far, I'm not wholly convinced that either guy "won" this debate" - Guyenet's science seemed sound but Taubes had some decent explanations for some of it and I thought in particular the study by the Olestra guy made Guyenet look bad as he didn't even argue Taubes point about it being biased and it seemed to be one of the main studies Guyenet was citing.
- As a novice who has read a lot my main takeaways were: 1. I'm not sure this debate really matters when it comes to addressing the obesity epidemic. 2. This is just going to confuse people and unfortunately lead some people to dismiss both sides - which again is unfortunate because I think they agree on a lot of points and the ones they disagree on matter to scientists but not as much to people trying to live their lives and be healthier and 3. We need more concrete studies where hopefully some of these points can be studied more in-depth - for example, I think it would be great if these two could team up to conduct a study.
As this relates to Keto eating and dieting - I think both of these guys would say keep on keeping on, especially if it's working for you and you can stick to it. So in that regard, I think it's good news for the folks in this thread.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Thanks. I listened to three clips that were on YouTube last night totaling only about 45 minutes. I hope to watch the rest at some point.
It's funny that I had a different impression of the participants from the parts I saw. Although Guyenet certainly came across as smug, it seemed to me that he had a much better understanding of the science than Taubes. I wasn't impressed by Taubes at all. Of course, I quite likely am at least a little bit biased since I'm skeptical about the demonization of whole grains and, to a lesser degree, fruit that the Keto diet can lead to.
This will probably be my last post in this thread because I feel uncomfortable posting about this topic here. There is obvious value in losing weight and I see the advantages that a Keto diet could have for many people. This thread should be encouraging, not discouraging.
One last point. The parts that I saw really made it clear how difficult it must be for people to avoid obesity who have the genes to make obesity more likely and live in the American culture with its standard diet and lifestyle . Their brains and bodies are wanting them to be heavier and it will be a difficult struggle to fight against. I have a lot of respect for people who take on that challenge.
That wasn't a good format for that kind of debate. This kind of discussion really needs to be written so that sources can be cited easily, thoughts organized better, etc. And while I think Joe Rogan is generally an excellent interviewer, this discussion needed to be refereed by somebody with better expertise himself. Many people don't like reading, but oral arguments are an inherently poor substitute in some contexts, and I think this was one of them.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
I think you should post more in here (if you want). Nothing wrong with having things challenged, especially if we find out we are doing more harm than good.
just to follow-up, I wasn’t saying Taubes was impressive and Guyenet wasn’t - quite the contrary, Taubes was mostly anecdotal - I just felt Guyenet didn’t deleiver the goods so to speak. I didn’t come away thinking, that guy has it right. He seemed almost more interested in arguing and getting his time. Granted Taubes did talk over him some but not like I was expecting. In that regard I thought Rogan was excellent - he gave both guys plenty of room to expand on their ideas and frequently told Taubes to stop interrupting - I felt he came across as unbiased but I rarely listen to the guy. I guess maybe my expectation that this would open my eyes to something was a bad expectation. Sounded like a couple of dorks slap-fighting. But make no mistake, Taubes didn’t “win” in my view either.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
To be fair to Rogan, I think he asked some decent questions for a laymen and asked for clarification when warranted. He definitely seemed to want things to be fair even if he obviously isn’t an expert.
Im curious your take on the insulin gene comment and how Guyenet admitted that can be a source of problem for some people, that originates not in the brain but the body. That seemed to be an acknowledgement that Taubes theory may be true for some people. Maybe I’m too dumb to understand what he was saying or maybe I misinterpreted it but seemed significant to me. If you don’t recall the part I’m taking about I will see if I can find it although it may take me listening to the whole thing again.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
One other item where both guys looked bad - Guyenet was in his “cosmic rays could be causing this” - he was very condescending to Taubes and Taubes returned the favor with the “you mean that’s not happening in the brain” when talking about adding muscle. Both guys made it too personal for my liking. Taubes even acknowledged he did something 8 years ago that was wrong and that he shouldn’t have done it.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I tried to skim this and it doesn’t seem the same but I have a feeling it’s my ignorance. I will try to identify the time in the podcast and also do a better job of summarizing.
Chaka
Footballguy
This is a huge concern for me as well, I am also uncomfortable with how much saturated fat often gets used in keto recipes. I posted a couple weeks ago about the effort I put in prior to starting a ketogenic diet to ensure that I maximized my fiber intake. I spent several weeks pulling recipes from Leanne Vogel's book (regarding SFA intake I often used far less fat than she calls for and I started substituting avocado oil and olive oil where possible as well) and other sources , with a clear focus on choosing recipes that maximize vegetables and fiber intake. I spent an additional week or so purchasing all the ingredients, preparing and vacuum sealing dozens of freezer ready meals and snacks and that was all before eating my first keto bite.
It is not easy to eat a truly balanced ketogenic diet and I think far too many people just jump in with the cheese stuffed, bacon wrapped chicken breasts and figure it's all good. That may work when you're 20 but when you're pushing...older than 20 you need to scrutinize a lot more.
I have some blood work coming in next week (cardiac, cholesterol, metabolic, hormonal and vitamin D), while I think any results will be far more related to how I was living prior to the past couple weeks. I like keto but if the numbers aren't good I will absolutely drop any keto principles necessary if the doctor and I think it could help.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
That was a concern I had too. I’ve done low-carb numerous times for periods of time with the intention of losing weight. Weight always came off temporarily - it would come back when I returned to my old ways but this time I wasn’t on a diet and I intentionally did it for 6 months to then have my bloodwork done. It was remarkable - I posted the details somewhere around here or the Otis thread but basically everything was better and most drastically better. BP was better, sleep apnea went away, this annoying pain I had in my side went away (until I drink beer again). I’m waiting until I hit the 12 months mark and plan to redo the blood panel and get my CACS score and Lipoprotein A all done.
The dietician I have access to also was concerned about fiber and SFA - both of those are controllable but make it a little harder. Right now over my last month I know my fiber intake is better but SFA is probably still too high.
The one thing I feel pretty good about is the only folks that I see that are very anti-Keto seem to be Vegans. My doctor is onborard, my dietician is mostly onboard. Guyenet is onboard
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Bluto Blutarsky
Footballguy
Notes from @The Gator
Been keto since the weight loss comp two years ago. Started that at 308 iirc after being up to 320.
Results from a recent doc visit / blood work
6'2 230
Cholesterol 138
HDL 52
Triglycerides 60
LDL 72
Chol/HDLC RATIO 2.7
LDL/HDL Ratio 1.4
Non HDL cholesterol 86
@culdeus let me know when I'm going to die
Been keto since the weight loss comp two years ago. Started that at 308 iirc after being up to 320.
Results from a recent doc visit / blood work
6'2 230
Cholesterol 138
HDL 52
Triglycerides 60
LDL 72
Chol/HDLC RATIO 2.7
LDL/HDL Ratio 1.4
Non HDL cholesterol 86
@culdeus let me know when I'm going to die
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Nice job Gator. Curious - what are you typically eating? You LDL numbers are much bettter than mine and that's one number my dietician was concerned with and told me to watch my SFA.
belljr
Footballguy
Just want to say good luck to everyone.
I cheated last friday with some pizza and beer.
Looks like I'll be down only 1 pound this week but that was after I "gained" 3 back after this past Friday.
I wont be visiting FBG much anymore.
Maybe I'll check in time to time.
GL to all my fat brothers trying to get fit!!
I cheated last friday with some pizza and beer.
Looks like I'll be down only 1 pound this week but that was after I "gained" 3 back after this past Friday.
I wont be visiting FBG much anymore.
Maybe I'll check in time to time.
GL to all my fat brothers trying to get fit!!
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Bluto Blutarsky
Footballguy
Thanks.
I've been a little more lean the last three weeks(gallbladder), but I'm still eating red meat, bacon, eggs, wild game and using a tablespoon of coconut oil in my coffee every morning.
Senor Schmutzig
Footballguy
Got a call from the doctor earlier in the week and he said he wanted me to set up an appointment to talk about the results of the blood test, specifically the lipid panel. He specializes as a cardiologist so he is always acutely aware of any symptoms that may increase the likelihood of heart disease.
I went to the office, sat down and explained that 3.5 months ago, I changed my diet to focus on reducing my weight and improving my A1C (to get out of the pre-diabetic state I was in during my last blood test). His immediate reaction: "Oh, you're following the Ketogenic diet?"
Once he was aware of that and knew that I was further adjusting my diet now away from the saturated fats, he wasn't as concerned with the elevated triglycerides, cholesterol and HDL with the understanding that I would come back in 4 months for another blood test to ensure that those numbers have fallen back in line with what they should be. He's a Keto supporter! Specifically he wanted to me reduce the high-fat dairy and shift some of that fat intake to MCT oil.
Alright, soldier on!
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Chaka
Footballguy
Started going full Keto on 3/1/2019 so I figure a 30 update is in order.
If I wasn't completely anal retentive (do people still use that term or has porn completely corrupted it?) I would probably quit after my first glance at my 30 day numbers.
I have averaged 1360 calories per day with 90g fat, (61.5%) 87g pro (26.3%) & 40g carbs (12.2%) (with 19g fiber so 21g net carbs). Which is pretty spot on for Keto.
I have averaged 2.2 mmol/L of Ketones in my blood, which is also spot on as most research says there are no additional weight loss benefits for ketone levels above 3 mmol/L.
I have averaged ~6,500 steps per day and I have done TRX suspension training 17 times in 30 days (medium to high intensity), just under four days/week, for an average of 44 minutes and ~440 calories burned.
So you look at all these numbers and you have to say CHAKA, YOU'RE KILLING IT!!! RIGHT???!!
Total weight loss: 2.5 lbs
WTMFF?!?!?!?!?!
So amidst my preparations for seppuku by pancake I decided to take a look at one other number that I have collected over the past month (thank you smart body analyzer).
I don't put a lot of stock in the absolute numbers for body fat % from "smart" scales but I do pay attention to trends.
My starting body fat was 29.4% and my current body fat is 26.2% (the trendline has been consistent as well) which means, and it's the biggest shocker of all for me, my lean muscle mass has increased by 5.3 lbs, in 30 days?
Even if the measurement is off by as much as 30% that is still a 3.7 lb muscle gain along with a 2.5 lb weight loss. In only 30 days. That is huge for a dude my age. I now wish I had done a DEXA scan prior to starting.
This gels with what I have just been feeling in general lately, my body just feels different (in a good way), stronger and I had even been noticing that I look different in the mirror (although I typically attribute that to delusional thinking) as has my wife (also delusion thinking).
It also gels with my own personal belief that exercise is not the best path if your exclusive goal is weight loss.
So, I think I am going to stay on board with this program for another 30 days and see where it takes me.
Well, after I have a well deserved Cheat Like You Stole It Sunday!!!!
If I wasn't completely anal retentive (do people still use that term or has porn completely corrupted it?) I would probably quit after my first glance at my 30 day numbers.
I have averaged 1360 calories per day with 90g fat, (61.5%) 87g pro (26.3%) & 40g carbs (12.2%) (with 19g fiber so 21g net carbs). Which is pretty spot on for Keto.
I have averaged 2.2 mmol/L of Ketones in my blood, which is also spot on as most research says there are no additional weight loss benefits for ketone levels above 3 mmol/L.
I have averaged ~6,500 steps per day and I have done TRX suspension training 17 times in 30 days (medium to high intensity), just under four days/week, for an average of 44 minutes and ~440 calories burned.
So you look at all these numbers and you have to say CHAKA, YOU'RE KILLING IT!!! RIGHT???!!
Total weight loss: 2.5 lbs
WTMFF?!?!?!?!?!So amidst my preparations for seppuku by pancake I decided to take a look at one other number that I have collected over the past month (thank you smart body analyzer).
I don't put a lot of stock in the absolute numbers for body fat % from "smart" scales but I do pay attention to trends.
My starting body fat was 29.4% and my current body fat is 26.2% (the trendline has been consistent as well) which means, and it's the biggest shocker of all for me, my lean muscle mass has increased by 5.3 lbs, in 30 days?
Even if the measurement is off by as much as 30% that is still a 3.7 lb muscle gain along with a 2.5 lb weight loss. In only 30 days. That is huge for a dude my age. I now wish I had done a DEXA scan prior to starting.This gels with what I have just been feeling in general lately, my body just feels different (in a good way), stronger and I had even been noticing that I look different in the mirror (although I typically attribute that to delusional thinking) as has my wife (also delusion thinking).
It also gels with my own personal belief that exercise is not the best path if your exclusive goal is weight loss.
So, I think I am going to stay on board with this program for another 30 days and see where it takes me.
Well, after I have a well deserved Cheat Like You Stole It Sunday!!!!
Chaka
Footballguy
Been testing every AM when I wake up. I will taper off once I have enough data (MyFitnessPal+Smart Scale+Keto-Mojo) to lock in my carb intake relative to my ketone level. I would like to stabilize at around 3 ug/mmol (or whatever it is) but I have overshot and was at 4.4 is my high. I figure I will need at least 30 days and maybe 60 max.
Chaka
Footballguy
Ugh, even when on a well deserved, IMO, cheat day I'm choosing clear alcohol instead of beer (Casamigos Plata is very good but still) and am having the charcuterie board, no bread, instead of the burger. WTF is wrong with me?
My wife refers to this as me being in Jihad mode. Is that racist in 2019?
My wife refers to this as me being in Jihad mode. Is that racist in 2019?
culdeus
Footballguy
Careful with this. Those scales are known to really swing a lot when in a rapid weight loss. The more likely situation if you accept the current numbers as realistic is that the fat % before was overstated.Chaka said:Started going full Keto on 3/1/2019 so I figure a 30 update is in order.
If I wasn't completely anal retentive (do people still use that term or has porn completely corrupted it?) I would probably quit after my first glance at my 30 day numbers.
I have averaged 1360 calories per day with 90g fat, (61.5%) 87g pro (26.3%) & 40g carbs (12.2%) (with 19g fiber so 21g net carbs). Which is pretty spot on for Keto.
I have averaged 2.2 mmol/L of Ketones in my blood, which is also spot on as most research says there are no additional weight loss benefits for ketone levels above 3 mmol/L.
I have averaged ~6,500 steps per day and I have done TRX suspension training 17 times in 30 days (medium to high intensity), just under four days/week, for an average of 44 minutes and ~440 calories burned.
So you look at all these numbers and you have to say CHAKA, YOU'RE KILLING IT!!! RIGHT???!!
Total weight loss: 2.5 lbs
So amidst my preparations for seppuku by pancake I decided to take a look at one other number that I have collected over the past month (thank you smart body analyzer).
I don't put a lot of stock in the absolute numbers for body fat % from "smart" scales but I do pay attention to trends.
My starting body fat was 29.4% and my current body fat is 26.2% (the trendline has been consistent as well) which means, and it's the biggest shocker of all for me, my lean muscle mass has increased by 5.3 lbs, in 30 days?
This gels with what I have just been feeling in general lately, my body just feels different (in a good way), stronger and I had even been noticing that I look different in the mirror (although I typically attribute that to delusional thinking) as has my wife (also delusion thinking).
It also gels with my own personal belief that exercise is not the best path if your exclusive goal is weight loss.
So, I think I am going to stay on board with this program for another 30 days and see where it takes me.
Well, after I have a well deserved Cheat Like You Stole It Sunday!!!!
They lean very heavily on just a simple lookup table with a range of values they fit you in. Calipers are much more accurate.
Chaka
Footballguy
Totally agree, and appreciate the input, but there hasn't been a rapid weight loss, in fact there has been an almost zero weight loss, which in and of itself is an interesting outcome considering the inputs.
Personally I'm baffled by the results, and I'm no newb at this (a PhD in genetics and a long history in this space feels like a solid foundation) but I'm at a loss to explain the outputs relative to the more than reasonably well defined inputs (I am awaiting a battery of blood test results, because I don't ###$ around with this ####, and will update to let you all know if I'm dying when I get the results hopefully this week).
Try this thought experiment on paper: What is your expectations for a dude 6'1", ~220 lbs, 2.2 mmol/L ketones, 1360 Cal/day, 12% carbs (less if you do the net carbs thing), moderate/high intensity exercise for 45 min per session 4 of 7 days/week. After 31 days what would you expect to see for that dude? Would you honestly expect 2.5 lbs weight loss?
Obviously it can happen but what are the explanations? Are they more or less likely than a small decrease in weight coupled with an increase in lean muscle mass?
In The Zone
Footballguy
It's pretty telling when a cheat day affects your weight and how you feel 2 and 3 days later. Last Wednesday the wife and I took a day trip to Charleston to celebrate our anniversary. This has been a planned cheat day for awhile. Well, the day was so glorious and the next morning I was up 2.8 lbs. No big deal as I anticipated this. Well the following day I went down a little in weight, maybe .4 lbs but I was back on Keto. The following day I was up almost another lb. and feeling a little sluggish. I'm just now, 5 days later, just getting back to my weight before my cheat day. I'm .4 lbs from my goal weight but may try for another 15 or 20 and then maintain from there. I now see the effects of having no filter or care about what I eat and have no desire to go back there.
culdeus
Footballguy
Well yeah. I mean as we start to get into meta analysis mode on macros there are starting to be some trends developing. One of the newer ones is highlighting how in certain cases (for reasons we don't quite understand) some people simply don't respond to HFLC. Genetics can play a huge role in this. There are entire societies built around macro breakdowns of like 85/10/5. Maybe those genetics have wormed their way into the biome.
What isn't clear is that if someone doesn't respond to HFLC would they respond to a LF-CICO approach more? Or simply just CICO.
Jeff Nippard hosted a good discussion of this topic over the weekend if you want to listen:
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/wwwstitchercompodcasticecream4prs/icecream4prs-podcast
As far as muscle gain on a cut. You have seen in recent history some people trying to sort of curve fit data to imply that if someone was going low fat for a long time, they might have de-regulated testosterone. So swapping to a HF diet and throwing in some good leg days you could get massive gainz bro. That amount you quote seems far fetched to me. A natural lifter is really going to have a hard cap of lean gains to the tune of maybe 1# a month, maybe if you bulk hard core 2# a month for 6 months then taper off. Anyone quoting more than that I would want to see Dexa or tank data. I mean it's possible on people that are like 6-4" so you have to scale for height to some extent, I get it.
I mean the obvious split is if you get out to 6 more weeks and haven't seen any meaningful loss, swap to full spudzilla diet. Would be interesting to see the results there.
Chaka
Footballguy
Oooooffff...I hate spudzilla. It works but it's sooooooooooo tedious.
I have been successful on keto previously and I totally agree that a 5# muscle gain sounds far fetched particularly in absence of a dexa scan. Looks like I need to line one of those up in the near future.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I’m new to this board and the Keto world. There’s a lot of interesting background information in the thread, but I can’t help thinking the diet is somewhat of a fad. Some questions I have for the low carb crowd:
1. Why do you think humans would evolve to preferentially use carbohydrates as fuel if they aren’t healthy?
2. Are there any long term adverse effects of a ketogenic diet?
3. Why should I choose the diet over those advocated by the medical community, esp. the Mediterranean diet?
1. Why do you think humans would evolve to preferentially use carbohydrates as fuel if they aren’t healthy?
2. Are there any long term adverse effects of a ketogenic diet?
3. Why should I choose the diet over those advocated by the medical community, esp. the Mediterranean diet?
Chaka
Footballguy
1. Who's to say we did?
2. No longitudinal studies that I am aware of exist to answer this.
3. All you can do is look at what we know and make up your mind.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
1. Well, our metabolism sure seems pretty glucose-centered, and carbohydrates readily provide it. Many tissues won’t burn ketones until you’ve adapted, esp. the brain. Hence the ketone fog and other symptoms people experience when transitioning to a very low carb diet.
2. I agree, and this concerns me.
3. Right, and there’s a lot more data supporting alternative diets. Makes me wonder why so many are willing to take the Keto plunge. I suspect rapid short term weight loss is the answer, but that doesn’t necessarily make it a great long term investment in health.
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culdeus
Footballguy
The Mediterranean diet has some junk science backing it and is starting to show cracks in it's support mechanism
Tom Skerritt
Footballguy
And honestly, any diet is subjective to what the person wants out of it.
For example if I wanted to live as long as possible, I should probably follow an Asian diet of fish, broth and leaky vegetables.
People have differing priorities when it comes to nutrition.
Chaka
Footballguy
1. That is an overly simplistic. Why are we able to process ketones as energy in the first place? If it was as simple as being evolutionarily adapted to glucose we wouldn't be facing an epidemic of obesity.
2. Virtually every single longitudinal study about diet are based on highly unreluable self reporting data. Studies with strong controls are virtually always so small as to not apply at any population level and so extraordinarily short in duration as to make their long range conclusions akin to Magic 8 Ball predictions.
3. As I said; look at the data and draw your own conclusions.
pack100
Footballguy
Great question, not facts just my opinions.
1. Carbs are cheap. Farmers grow grain. Processed food. The Microwave. It used to be home cooked meals. Then everyone had to work and the microwave was invented and it became quick food, quick meals, frozen dinners, microwave crap. Then everything started coming in packages and advertising (Think cereal companies.
2. I have been on it 19 months now. Much lighter, feel great, not dead yet. Are there long term effects to the way the gubment wants us to eat now.... Appears so with the obesity epidemic we are in.
3. You need to choose what works for you. I tried most everything. Kept works for me.
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
Welcome to the conversation. Good questions.
1. This question seems oversimplistic, to me. The body will utilize whatever method it needs to produce fuel for cells (basically ATP) whether that be from protein, fat or carbs. To say that the body evolved to preferentially use carbs is a misstatement, and also implies an assumption that there's an "intelligent design" behind evolution. We are omnivores, and our digestion/metabolism pathways seem like they evolved to maximize energy production from available food sources. To imply that a carb heavy diet is "right" or optimal, simply because it is the most efficient pathway seems like a stretch.
2. Particularly, i'd want to look at long-term effects on lipid profiles, atherosclerotic processes, hepatic function, renal function and gallbladder disease. Any long-term studies of diet have to be taken with a healthy dose of context, just because of the limits of any dietary study. It's much more difiicult to control variables in long-term diet studies than scientific experiments. Not to mention reliance on self-reporting for most studies (like Chaka mentioned). I tend to believe a lot of the findings about how beneficial a plant-based diet is from the China study and other studies (check out the Longevity Diet by Dr. Luongo) but I truly think a lot of the anti-meat evils purported have their basis in a fundamental aversion to animal products on an emotional/moral basis, which clouds conclusions in a confirmation bias.
3. The only real reason that works for this question is because you want to. It works, and the benefits are readily noticeable fairly quickly. Short-term benefits, besides weight loss, are: elimination of prediabetic state, reducing BP, normalizing serum blood levels of many important markers, reduction in aches/pains/inflammation in the body and ease of compliance. It works, read thru the thread for the testimonials.
pack100
Footballguy
I have counted calories.
I have myfitnesspal'd
I have Weightwatcherd
I worked out 5-7 days a week
I ate 5 small meals a day to "rev up the metabolism"
I ate low fat everything "Fat is EVIL!"
I walk 15-20K steps a day just cuz of work
I weigh 265 pounds and my body wants to keep getting bigger
NOW
I count calories
I still Myfitnesspal
I work out sporadically....Shame on me
I eat one maybe 2 meals a day
I eat fat, need fat, it is a necessity CARBS ARE EVIL
I still walk 15-20k a day
I eat 25 carbs a day
I fluctuate between 187-195 pounds!
I have myfitnesspal'd
I have Weightwatcherd
I worked out 5-7 days a week
I ate 5 small meals a day to "rev up the metabolism"
I ate low fat everything "Fat is EVIL!"
I walk 15-20K steps a day just cuz of work
I weigh 265 pounds and my body wants to keep getting bigger
NOW
I count calories
I still Myfitnesspal
I work out sporadically....Shame on me
I eat one maybe 2 meals a day
I eat fat, need fat, it is a necessity CARBS ARE EVIL
I still walk 15-20k a day
I eat 25 carbs a day
I fluctuate between 187-195 pounds!
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Can you elaborate?culdeus said:
