Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
McGwire Admits Using Steroids (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter pantagrapher
- Start date
Chairshot
Footballguy
He did the right thing here. I thought it was interested that he specifically admitted that he did them in 98. He could easily have tried to pull the "I did them a few times but not THAT year" bit that others have done some form of.
Hopefully now he can just do his job and it will all die down for him.
Hopefully now he can just do his job and it will all die down for him.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Better late than never. He finally admitted what everyone pretty much knew anyway. As more suspected users admit it, the worse it looks for those who obviously did, but refuse to admit it (Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, etc.).
Eephus
Footballguy
I think it has more to do with his role as the Cardinals hitting instructor this year.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yep. He still won't get in the Hall, as his HR numbers are the only thing that would put him in, and now he has confirmed that they are tainted. He ain't ever getting in the Hall.
Thorn
Footballguy
Any chance he gets in now?
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
Maybe.He should see a little spike next year as some writers will forgive him now that he has admitted it. You might see a bounce into the low 40's percentage-wise. I've heard more than a few writers say they would vote for him if he came clean.
Eephus
Footballguy
The 2013 HoF election with Bonds and Clemens eligible will be very interesting
oso diablo
Footballguy
no (99.9% sure of this)
Eephus
Footballguy
In that case, maybe the Cubs can activate Ron Santo after rosters expand. They can send him up for an AB like Eddie Gaedel.
oso diablo
Footballguy
setting aside the dubious notion that McGwire is a one-tool player, how tainted would you guys say his HR totals are (in the sense of asking how many fewer HRs would he have)? I did some analysis on this, and i'd be interested to get some other opinions.
Kevin Ashcraft
Footballguy
Who cares? We all knew the man did it, so what is different now?
whoknew
Footballguy
No but it would stall his voting for 5 years. So 5 years from now, he'd still be on year 4 or whatever. Good strategy.
whoknew
Footballguy
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
Bonds is a no-brainer, roids or not. He was too good for too long before he did steroids.Clemens could be interesting. Pettitte admitting he did HGh, while working out with Clemens and getting them from Roger's personal trainer doesn't help. Was everything after Boston tainted? Was everything after High School tainted? At least with Bonds, if you look at his baseball cards, you can see when he started.
Wrigley
Footballguy
Why? Albert, you too can hit 70, here let me show you :needle: (although I'm sure Albert already knows what he's doing)He can coach without letting the world know he ####ed up, but there is no way in hell they let him in the hall without owning up to his past discretion's.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Doesn't excuse the behavior one bit and expect the writers to take that stance. Couple that with the personality, I think it's going to take the Veteran's Committee to make it happen.
RnR
Footballguy
I'm going to bypass the fact that you're throwing out accusations you can't prove about Pujols (purely out of envy), and instead point out that you're an idiot if you think this is about the Hall of Fame. He's not getting in, and this admission didn't change a thing. If anything, it made it worse because the HRs were really his only HOF-worthy quality. They're tainted.It's about not being a distraction for the Cardinals next month when they report to Jupiter. Period.
Last edited by a moderator:
whoknew
Footballguy
You are the second person to write this. And for the second time I'll say
Billy Bats
Footballguy
He's on live with Costas on MLB network. Crying of course. 
Last edited by a moderator:
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
It looks like big mac wants to rip costas head off. He's cried twice so far ten minutes in and it's still sounding flimsy
PIK95
Footballguy
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Nah I don't agree with this, if that was the case he would've come out shortly after receiving 20% for election into the hall. He's doing it now so he doesn't get asked steroid questions every day throughout the year while he's working for the Cards.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Like I said above, I really think the writers keep these guys out and let the Veteran Committee decide their fate. And after I posted that, I started to realize that's not going to end well either.You are the second person to write this. And for the second time I'll say
Chairshot
Footballguy
I'd be pretty surprised if this changes McGwire's chances any, at least in the short term. There will probably be a little spike in his votes, but no where near what he needs to get in. I think each of these guys will be judged based on how much people think steroids helped their case. With a big masher like McGwire, where 90% of his case is built on his career HR total, the one stat that most people link with steroids, I think it will be hard for voters to cast a vote for him.
All that said, the mindset of the voters could be vastly different in 10 years. God only knows who comes out and admits roid use between now and then. If we have a ton of guys admitting it, they are going to have to let *some* guys into the Hall from that time period.
When you look at the ballot now, basically no one is suspected of using roids (rightly or wrongly) with the glaring exception of McGwire. In 10 years, I'd guess that the majority of the ballot will be admitted users or suspected users. That will have to effect how the voters vote. They aren't going to lock out the ballot for 10 years.
All that said, the mindset of the voters could be vastly different in 10 years. God only knows who comes out and admits roid use between now and then. If we have a ton of guys admitting it, they are going to have to let *some* guys into the Hall from that time period.
When you look at the ballot now, basically no one is suspected of using roids (rightly or wrongly) with the glaring exception of McGwire. In 10 years, I'd guess that the majority of the ballot will be admitted users or suspected users. That will have to effect how the voters vote. They aren't going to lock out the ballot for 10 years.
Last edited by a moderator:
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
So, basically...
"I took roids because of injuries and I really regret it. But it had nothing to do with me hitting 70 and ultimately 580 home runs, it was my hand eye coordination, roids had nothing to do with my success"
I give him credit for admitting roids, but I wish ONE of these guys, other than David Segui, would say, I did this because it made me better. I don't even know if he believes that, I think these guys can warp their lies in their own mind and believe their story. I think Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens are all in the same boat, they did roids ,but really don't believe it helped them. Massive ego play here.
"I took roids because of injuries and I really regret it. But it had nothing to do with me hitting 70 and ultimately 580 home runs, it was my hand eye coordination, roids had nothing to do with my success"
I give him credit for admitting roids, but I wish ONE of these guys, other than David Segui, would say, I did this because it made me better. I don't even know if he believes that, I think these guys can warp their lies in their own mind and believe their story. I think Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens are all in the same boat, they did roids ,but really don't believe it helped them. Massive ego play here.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Yea that's what kills me. Sure I could hit a baseball 700ft without steroids. Yea right. Christ, his 62nd hr that year got out because of the steroids. If he wasn't juicing that ball would've come short of the wall, but because of his mammoth biceps he muscled it out for the record breaker.
I think its time we revisit the "accomplishments" of one Tony LaRussa. Its obvious his record as a manager should be tainted due to the inflated production of guys like McGwire and Canseco, while he looked the other way. To hear his comments today, its evident he doesn't believe there was much wrong doing.
Chairshot
Footballguy
In fairness, he did admit to using them all during 1998, if I read the press release correctly.The people who understand the science of it all aren't even 100% sure if it helps you play baseball better. Kinda hard to hold McGwire personally responsible for not clearly stating it made him better. He said he had up and down years, both on and off the juice.All things considered, I think it was one of the most honest and forthright admissions to date. It will be interesting to see how things unfold in the coming weeks as he speaks about it more.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I would almost tend to agree, but there is too much cause and effect at play here.Watch an old game, say pre 1992 and look at the players the umpires, they are the same size. Post 93 or so, the players really spike precipitiously in size. OK, you say better nutrition, fine, but with their size also goes home run numbers, off like a rocket, all while the roid era is in full swing. With recent enforcement in the past few years, we're back to normal with the home runs. What lead the leagues last year? Where there's smoke, there's fire to me.
DropKick
Footballguy
I'm gonna puke if I hear the hand/eye coordination excuse again. We know these guys had God given skills but the extra strength, bat speed, recovery, etc. is a huge boost. Who knows to what extent growth hormones and other designer drugs were in the mix too... If they didn't help, why did you lie about it for so long?
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Oh it's wonderful he finally admitted to it but to think he could've hit 70 home runs without the help of any supplements is silly. He flat out said in the interview with Costas that he didn't need the steroids to hit 70, he would've done that without the help. Well I don't believe that at all. He probably hit 10-12 home runs that year because of the juice, and the 62nd was one of them. Steroids may not make you a better ballplayer, but they certainly help you hit the ball harder, and farther. That's kind of obvious, Mr. McGwire.
Last edited by a moderator:
When asked if steroids helped him get 70/season and nearly 600 why doesn't McGwire just say it helped him because it enabled him to take the field. He's so warped or dumb he can't even cop to that.
Enough with the hand/eye coordination junk. Steroids gives you more bat speed meaning you can wait on the ball longer. A major advantage when trying to make contact.
Enough with the hand/eye coordination junk. Steroids gives you more bat speed meaning you can wait on the ball longer. A major advantage when trying to make contact.
Night Hawks
Footballguy
You have got to be kidding me. Yeah, if I had the hand-eye coordination, I still couldn't hit worth a damn in MLB, right? Why? Because I don't have the bat speed. Give me HUGE arms with the help of steroids and I'll have a better chance because my bat speed would be astronomical. Like swinging a toothpick. I'm just pissed he still truly believes it had no effect. Oh Mark. Way to admit you cheated without admitting that cheating helped your numbers. Your numbers = 0 now. Period. Give him credit for admitting it (if you don't discredit the fact that his timing comes just as he's about to start his return to baseball). But the 'roids helped you make a 500-foot homerun go 580 feet. And, by extension, your 345-foot flyouts went 425 feet and over the wall.
Chairshot
Footballguy
I kinda get what you are saying here. But it' not nearly a cut and dried a that.My personal gut feeling is pretty much in line with you. My gut tells me that roids make you stronger. Being stronger probably means you can hit the ball harder without having to sacrifice contact. My gut tell me that roids probably turn lazy line outs into singles, tracked down fly balls into doubles into the gap and warning track outs into HRs.
However, even if all that is true (and it's far from true, it's all my best guess), we still don't know what that means for a players numbers. How many warning track shots become HRs over a career? When we look at McGwire specifically, he hit 583 HRs over his career. You could take away at least 10% of them and he still has HOF numbers. You could probably take 15-20% away and he would till be in the discussion, at worst. Did roids give him an extra 90 HRs over the course of his career? Seriously, who can answer that? No one can.
I said it in another thread (I believe the HOF voting thread) that I don't know what to do with McGwire. His numbers are no-brainer HOF numbers. But how many HRs would he have hit clean? How many did roids give him? He's a really difficult case, because without 500 HRs (or at least close to it), he's probably not a HOFer.
As far as McGwire's admission, I feel like the initial backlash against him is for what he believes, not what he did. No one has come out and volunteered as much guilt as McGwire has. A-rod came out and admitted to what he knew could be proved. No way on God' green earth do I believe what he admitted to was the *only* time he did PEDs. Same thing with Pettitte - he admitted to what he knew he was nailed on. Clemens and Bonds won't even do that.
McGwire could have easily said "I just did them a couple times when I was hurt". Or he could have gone the full blown Sammy Sosa route and continue to deny ever doing them. But what he did do was admit that he used him pretty much his entire career and he specifically admitted using them in 98, which is the question everyone *really* wanted to know the answer to. He wasn't caught red handed on anything, really, yet he admitted to using them for his entire career.
So, now we get upset because he *believes* he could have still hit 70 without the roids? Really? The man is delusional. I personally believe that he really does believe that he could have hit 70 without the roids. John Kruk basically said the same thing tonight on ESPN. Great athletes usually have the ability to overcome the mental part of life, they can convince themselves of anything, lie to themselves over anything, if it means success. McGwire probably does believe that he could have hit 70 clean. Personally, I think he's crazy. But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape because he believes that.
All I can say is this: McGwire is the first and only ball player that has come clean about all the times he used. He basically admitted that no part of his career was clean. He didn't do it because he was dead to rights proven guilty first, like A-rod or Pettitte did. He admitted to way more then could be proven and probably way more then most people even thought he did. I feel like he's telling the truth, so I'll give him full credit for that as a human being.
Unfortunately, that still doesn't help any of us figure out what to make of his career. We know he cheated for over 10 years of his 16 year career. What type of numbers he would have put up without roids is the mystery that we will never really know the answer to.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
I'm glad he came clean. I'll always like McGwire b/c he passed up the $20 million that pretty much all other athletes would've stolen by not limping around for the last year of his massive contract. I'm sure part of the reason could've been him feeling heat about being outed for his 'roid use, but I applaud the move.
I'm still confused about something. Didn't the statue of limitations run out in 2006? So, this has been eating him up and he's been dying to get it off his chest, but he could have 3 years ago with no fear of prosecution. The "I lied because I had to" excuse sounds great, but it's at least partially a load of BS. I haven't seen all the interviews, but has anyone in the media cared to ask about this in between the crying episodes?
That leads me to believe that this is obviously somewhat a product of trying to get into the HOF. The Cards hitting coach thing is a huge factor too, I'm sure, but this reeks of a "let me see if I can slip into the HOF in one of the first 2 tries without admitting this, then I'll come clean and see if that helps" strategy.
I'm glad to see McGwire back in the game because I like him, but his taking a job as a hitting coach just seems odd.
He said over and over that he was "born with a gift". I'm curious how he plans on teaching that.
An admitted PED user who's only weapon was the longball as a hitting coach just sounds funny to me. All he'll do is bring suspicion towards any Cards hitters hitting alot of HRs and I can't imagine he'll be any use to anyone else (is he going to give clinics on how to properly execute a suicide squeeze?).
Other than helping McGwire out, I'm not sure why the Cards are doing this.
I think McGwire should be in the HOF with or without this admission.
I'm still confused about something. Didn't the statue of limitations run out in 2006? So, this has been eating him up and he's been dying to get it off his chest, but he could have 3 years ago with no fear of prosecution. The "I lied because I had to" excuse sounds great, but it's at least partially a load of BS. I haven't seen all the interviews, but has anyone in the media cared to ask about this in between the crying episodes?
That leads me to believe that this is obviously somewhat a product of trying to get into the HOF. The Cards hitting coach thing is a huge factor too, I'm sure, but this reeks of a "let me see if I can slip into the HOF in one of the first 2 tries without admitting this, then I'll come clean and see if that helps" strategy.
I'm glad to see McGwire back in the game because I like him, but his taking a job as a hitting coach just seems odd.
He said over and over that he was "born with a gift". I'm curious how he plans on teaching that.
An admitted PED user who's only weapon was the longball as a hitting coach just sounds funny to me. All he'll do is bring suspicion towards any Cards hitters hitting alot of HRs and I can't imagine he'll be any use to anyone else (is he going to give clinics on how to properly execute a suicide squeeze?).
Other than helping McGwire out, I'm not sure why the Cards are doing this.
I think McGwire should be in the HOF with or without this admission.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
It's funny, we essentially make McGwire "give back" all of his HRs that he hit. Not literally, but that's exactly what we do. In the hearts and minds of baseball fans, those HRs don't exist.
However, no one seems interested in having MLB give back any of the extra money they made over the 12 years because of McGuire and Sosa. Sure, McGuire/Sosa did well financially, but that's nothing compared to what they gave MLB. They probably got underpaid for what they did.
History will look at McGwire and these others as villains. Bad guys. Personally, I see them as martyrs.
It may not be a popular thing to say, but MLB is better off because some guys risked their legacy to get ahead (Adam Smith would've been so proud of the Steroid Era).
However, no one seems interested in having MLB give back any of the extra money they made over the 12 years because of McGuire and Sosa. Sure, McGuire/Sosa did well financially, but that's nothing compared to what they gave MLB. They probably got underpaid for what they did.
History will look at McGwire and these others as villains. Bad guys. Personally, I see them as martyrs.
It may not be a popular thing to say, but MLB is better off because some guys risked their legacy to get ahead (Adam Smith would've been so proud of the Steroid Era).
boubucarow
Footballguy
Add me to the put all of them in the Hall if their numbers fit the bill. My assumption that even if all players knowingly connected to steroids are kept out of the Hall, there will be multiple players that are voted in that simply were better at keeping their use a secret. In other words, we will never know for sure who did and didn't and attempting to keep users out will be a futile exercise and every player will be questioned.
In regards to McGwire's use, there is no question that he had big time power long before using. There is also no question he would aid his OBP with a high walk rate from day one. So if we are trying to examine the affects of his use on his performance I think we need to look at three things.
First, would he been able to recover after 1994 to become an everyday elite player once again without using? He had missed 250+ games in 93-94 at the age of 29-30. He played 104 games in 95 and then began playing nearly full seasons til 99.
Second, would his batting average had been high enough to maintain the OBP that is his other significant HOF quality stat? From 87-92, he was a maybe a 240-245 hitter with a 350-355 OBP. From 95-00, he was 270+ hitter with 400+ OBP. Did steroids help him get the extra 15 or so hits a season to raise his average and therefore his OBP into to the elite category?
Lastly, does he hit 70 homers in 98 and 583 homers overall? He was 35+ HR guy from 87-92 and then a 50+ HR guy from 95-00. Increasing your HR rate in your early 30's is actually pretty common but a jump from 30+ for multiple seasons to 50+ for multiple seasons is only matched by his steroid contemporaries.
Again, I don't think we can pick and choose players we may think that are clean from this era with enough certainty to keep all of the users out. Accordingly, everyone should be allowed in IMO. Yet, I do think it is interesting to examine the possible effects of steroids on performance just the same and McGwire does give us an good case study.
In regards to McGwire's use, there is no question that he had big time power long before using. There is also no question he would aid his OBP with a high walk rate from day one. So if we are trying to examine the affects of his use on his performance I think we need to look at three things.
First, would he been able to recover after 1994 to become an everyday elite player once again without using? He had missed 250+ games in 93-94 at the age of 29-30. He played 104 games in 95 and then began playing nearly full seasons til 99.
Second, would his batting average had been high enough to maintain the OBP that is his other significant HOF quality stat? From 87-92, he was a maybe a 240-245 hitter with a 350-355 OBP. From 95-00, he was 270+ hitter with 400+ OBP. Did steroids help him get the extra 15 or so hits a season to raise his average and therefore his OBP into to the elite category?
Lastly, does he hit 70 homers in 98 and 583 homers overall? He was 35+ HR guy from 87-92 and then a 50+ HR guy from 95-00. Increasing your HR rate in your early 30's is actually pretty common but a jump from 30+ for multiple seasons to 50+ for multiple seasons is only matched by his steroid contemporaries.
Again, I don't think we can pick and choose players we may think that are clean from this era with enough certainty to keep all of the users out. Accordingly, everyone should be allowed in IMO. Yet, I do think it is interesting to examine the possible effects of steroids on performance just the same and McGwire does give us an good case study.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
Well said.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I don't think he did, especially in regard to this point. And that ties into the bottom line in regard to that point, and there are two questions that most roid admission can't not get past:1. If it didn't help performance/you could have done it without roids, why did you take roids for so long and over such different periods of time as almost all professed users have confessed to?
2. If it was no big deal, why was it a secret?
Are you really going to go through the trouble, expense, risk and whatever of doing roids if they aren't doing something? Performance and physical change seems to indicate they were something beyond placebo.
oso diablo
Footballguy
certainly PEDs aid HR totals, but i don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility for the single-season HR record to have been broken without them. Roger Maris was not a massive guy, yet he hit 61 almost 40 years ago*. Given the evolution of player skills, the ever-onward-and-upward trend in overall HR totals, and what we see in other sports records, I'm actually shocked that the record lasted until 1998.
*i do understand the peculiarities of 1961 (diluted pitching from expansion), but 1962 saw 2 more expansion teams, and so even more diluted pitching, and the leader in HR (Mays) only hit 49. In the end, that's an unsatisfactory explanation.
*i do understand the peculiarities of 1961 (diluted pitching from expansion), but 1962 saw 2 more expansion teams, and so even more diluted pitching, and the leader in HR (Mays) only hit 49. In the end, that's an unsatisfactory explanation.
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
Bronson Arroyo did, although it was other banned substances and not roids.
Similar threads
